The little professor
Join Date: May 2011
Re: How to tell you're an INTP.
That's because INTPs are social chameleons, and mirror others naturally. We can mirror others' behaviour. They don't all have the same ability to mirror us. Even if they can, how do you mirror a mirror?
Originally Posted by Mello
Well, INTPs are gamemasters. They're able to create other games for people to play and they know it doesn't matter if they win or lose.
INTJs are determined to be the best.
I didn't say INTPs were INTJs.
I said INTPs can mimic INTJs.
(I was just using BiApplePi cold's logic puzzle.)
But INTJs can not necessarily mimic INTPs.
Because it would be difficult for an INTJ to support something that goes against its logic.
Jung pointed out that whenever you consider a situation, you always have to understand it in terms of its historical context.
Originally Posted by Auburn
Why even use the four-letter-code at all? The J/P problem doesn't even exist if we don't try to make a letter code in the first place. The letter code is, in actuality, an attempt to shorthand the functions by labeling the type via some set of "typical" traits that emerge from the functions.
That is to say, in naming Ti+Ne as INTP - Isabel Myers Briggs gave that configuration a stereotype the common populace could understand without effort. They would now just have to think of an "introverted, intuitive, thinking, percieving" individual and that became an INTP to their minds. However, as convenient as that might seem, it's a fundamentally incorrect approach. Far too simplistic.
Jung was a psychotherapist. In the field of mental illness, diagnoses are normally decades late, and very, very often wrong. Studies have been done in the 70s and in the 00s, to investigate the capacity of mental health professionals to make an effective diagnosis. Both showed that diagnosis in the field of mental health is very, very poor. Jung must have seen this. He went looking at lots of fields, to come up with a better way to diagnose his patients. He even looked at astrology and mysticism, even though that made his colleagues question his capabilities as a scientist. He found that there had been many different attempts to classify humans. He came up with his own method, which also used what went before, but was primarily based on his experiences as a psychotherapist, that connected personality traits with different psychological personality disorders.
Myers and Briggs were developing Jung's theory in World War II, when suddenly hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, of women were entering the workplace. Men had had 20 years or more to figure out what jobs were good for them. All these women had been growing up, expecting to be wives, mothers, and homemakers. Suddenly, they were thrust into the workplace, where each person had a different job, that required different skills. They were totally unprepared for it. Just putting them into jobs at random, would have meant lots of people doing jobs they were really unsuited for. So it became very necessary to quickly identify which people were suited for each job. So she wanted a series of questions that could be put to women newly entering the workplace, that could identify which types of job roles they would be suited and unsuited for.
In reality, both the dominant function and the auxiliary function, act as a conscious pair, both working together. The other functions each act as complements of pairs to the first 2 functions, each pair in the total sequence of 8 functions acting in different ways, building up to a total personality profile.
Originally Posted by Auburn
What a Ti+Ne is, is something formulaic that has the potential to, and does, manifest both extrovertedly, introvertedly, logically, emotionally, with organization, without organization, curious in some aspects, noncurious in others. The functions have the capacity to express all traits (I/E, N/S, T/F, J/P), so the reality of a configuration simply doesn't match that face-value model. It's like trying to fit something three-dimensional into two dimensions.
Renaming Ti+Ne as an "INTJ" is just as much a flawed idea as naming it "INTP". If there is any way to name it, it should just be TiNe.
Those who really wish to know what that means will go out of their way an investigate it. To properly understand what it means to be TiNe or NiTe (or any other type) would actually take sitting down and reading --- and can't be explained in a short conversation down the hall --- but if that is the reality then it can't be sold short.
Using 4 quicky blanket-terms is about as telling as not saying anything at all.
Jung's focus was on personality disorders, when the functions tend to an extreme, where they cannot function satisfactorily. The mind itself is a self-learning organism, and thus functions as an evolving system. As in any evolving system, the dominant function acts as the main drive. So when the system tends towards an extreme, the dominant function has the most effect by far, and the dysfunction that results is mostly a result of the dominant function.
However, Myers and Briggs were working on the roles that people choose to play in any organisation. In this respect, they were dealing with mostly normal people, where the first 2 functions mostly act as an equal pairing, with both being equally important in the choices we make, but where the introverted or extroverted aspect of each function, and the order of those functions, is not quite as important as the pair itself. So NTs of any type, Ti-dom, Te-dom, Ni-dom or Ne-dom, were far more likely to be competent and happy at the same types of roles. Whether someone was an introverted-dominant or extroverted-dominant, seemed to mostly determine the way one worked with and without others, Introverts being much more capable working mostly alone, and Extroverts being much more capable working mostly with others. Judging/Perceiving became important for job selection, because some people seemed to thrive on taking charge, while others did not like to take charge, but seemed to understand situations and people much better than the take-charge people, and acted as an excellent counterpoint to make the leaders' efforts much more successful. Mostly, this seemed to depend on whether the Judging function was introverted or extroverted, irrespective of whether it was the dominant function or the auxiliary function. As a result, even in the 80s, many companies were using psychometric testing based on MBTI. I had to take a few such tests for job interviews. Can't say I liked them. But at least in my case, they were very accurate.
Incidentally, I would actually set them out in terms of the full 8 functions in 4 pairs: (Ti-Ne) - (Si-Fe) - (Te-Ni) - (Se-Fi). This results in the INTP having 4 different cognitive patterns: the INTP, the ISFJ, the ENTJ, and the ESFP. Yes, we have them all, they ALL show at various times, in various situations. But the dominant one is the one that shows up the most by far, and due to the nature of the mind as an evolving system, that separates out dominant organisms from recessive organisms, rather like a centrifuge.
You might also find it useful to learn about the Beebe Model.
"Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." - Spock