Go Back   INTP Forum > Within > Faith & Spirituality > Old Philosophy & Faith Subforum Archive

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 22nd-February-2008, 01:31 PM   RobdoR's time 22nd-February-2008, 04:31 PM    #1
RobdoR
Member
 
RobdoR's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 144
Default Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

A favorite philosopher/theologian of mine Ravi Zacharias often asks four questions necessary to any world view: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny. I'm interested to hear how you answer these questions.

Origin: How did it all start?
Meaning: Why are we here? Why is anything here?
Morality: Do right and wrong exist? If so, what standard should we use?
Destiny: How does it all end? Is there afterlife?

Last edited by lightspeed; 23rd-February-2008 at 12:08 PM.
RobdoR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd-February-2008, 12:08 PM   lightspeed's time 23rd-February-2008, 06:08 AM    #2
lightspeed
Banned
 

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Posts: 357
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

Origin: I have no idea, honestly. I would imagine some fantastic and brilliant display of exploding, condensed around the center of an expanding black hole light show-- KABOOMED us into existence.

Meaning: See "Origin". I am not sure if I think this was planned, or if things are predetermined. I like to pretend there is destiny, just so I can cheat it. One overcomes everything, when believing the mechanics of the thing are stacked against them.

Morality: Generally, I do believe the human mind is prone to empathy. This should be the only base for morality, imo.

Destiny: I believe it ends with light, and not a darkness. I think it never ends, but transfers. Not sure where it transfers to though.
lightspeed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd-February-2008, 04:36 PM   Zeke Johnson's time 23rd-February-2008, 04:37 PM    #3
Zeke Johnson
Member
 
Zeke Johnson's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UK area
Posts: 50
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

Origin: How did it all start?
Meaning: Why are we here? Why is anything here?
Morality: Do right and wrong exist? If so, what standard should we use?
Destiny: How does it all end? Is there afterlife?


Very amusing....Riddle me this batman ( What happens when the indestructible bullet hits the indestructible wall? ).


Zeke Johnson ( Ex-Captain )
Zeke Johnson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd-February-2008, 06:58 PM   Ermine's time 23rd-February-2008, 11:58 AM    #4
Ermine
is watching and taking notes
 
Ermine's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: casually playing guitar in my mental arena
Posts: 2,878
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

I think I have my answers and it all makes total sense to me.

Origin: I believe God is the architect of the universe, using scientific means, over billions of years. He made the universe, the earth, everything on it, us. There's really no way it could have been spontaneous. Everything about the universe and the earth is too intricately designed and fits into a system as if it was all designed. The more I see of the world, the more I come to believe it.

Meaning: We are here to be tested, to experience the good and the bad and improve from it, and to reunite with God. Everything is here as part of a giant system, in an effort to create an environment for humankind to learn and progress.

Morality - Yes, there's right and wrong though the two aren't necessarily obvious. There are things that benefit us and others in the long run (right) and things that lead to the downfall/death of us and others (wrong). Personally, I keep these definitions in mind when making decisions. I'm also a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints. Though people often assume Christianity is a symbol of ignorance, I have only learned more in practicing my religion. Its standards have helped me avoid many of the pitfalls in life.

Destiny: There is no end. There's only transitions. There's definitely an afterlife, in which people are either benefited or brought down by the choices they made in life, and are able progress further and if they are worthy, go on to create worlds.

IMO
__________________
Ermine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th-March-2008, 12:46 AM   WookieeB's time 4th-March-2008, 04:46 PM    #5
WookieeB
Member
 

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Los Angeles area
Posts: 101
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

Origin: Fernando_the_weasel's response is pretty much right in line with how I view things. God created the universe and earth and set all the natural processes in motion.

Meaning: Well, if we are created, then I'd say the Creator knows best on how we should be operating. Operate according to the 'users manual' and we flourish. Deviate from acting according to design and you end up with problems and breakage. (Ex: a washing machine does a good job washing clothes. But if someone comes by and instead uses it to mix concrete, it might 'work' for a short time, but soon you have a broken machine.)

Morality: Since we are creatures of free will, Morality comes down to a choice. And since it is a choice, I think it goes beyond just stating laws. It should be based upon principles. Laws though are usually based on principles, so they do tend to impact moral choices in many cases. As far as where we get our principles, I feel the order and precedence should be - God > Society > self-conscience.

Destiny: Depends. For some, things will end. For others there is no end. It relates to the 'Meaning' section. To the extent that we play the game correctly, we have a choice somewhat on how we end up. If we operate according to our design, we will last for a long time, even forever, depending on what destiny God has chosen for us. If we choose to not play the game correctly, we lose and the game is over. We die and essentially cease to exist. I don't believe in an eternal form of torture or conscious punishment.
WookieeB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st-March-2008, 05:34 AM   mm1991's time 20th-March-2008, 11:34 PM    #6
mm1991
Member
 
mm1991's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 186
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

Origin: God created the earth, He created time, space, and matter, and humans, and, well, everything.

Meaning: We are here to serve God and to do His will. This is only a waiting period, this is where we will decide on where we want to go when all of this ends.

Morality: Yes, right and wrong exist. I believe that the bible, which is the word and law of God should be followed.

Destiny: When we die, God will judge us. We either go to Heaven or Hell. One day, God will come back to earth and make it new. Those in heaven will live in the new Israel forever.
mm1991 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st-March-2008, 11:05 PM   tesseracter's time 21st-March-2008, 06:05 PM    #7
tesseracter
Member
 

Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 32
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

Quote:
Originally Posted by mm1991 View Post
Origin: God created the earth, He created time, space, and matter, and humans, and, well, everything.

Meaning: We are here to serve God and to do His will. This is only a waiting period, this is where we will decide on where we want to go when all of this ends.

Morality: Yes, right and wrong exist. I believe that the bible, which is the word and law of God should be followed.

Destiny: When we die, God will judge us. We either go to Heaven or Hell. One day, God will come back to earth and make it new. Those in heaven will live in the new Israel forever.
This is exactly what I believe.

I'd also like to add my thoughts about origin. I've always wondered why people who don't believe that God or a god exists think we are the crazy ones for believing that God was there from the beginning and started the whole thing?

If you think logically through everything, we come down to one point: either a piece of dust (or energy, but they are essentially the same thing) existed or God existed FIRST and started the whole process. Let's call this first thing OMEGA. Everyone can agree with that, right?

Now, the real debate is whether omega is intelligent and with purpose OR completely without purpose/direction (ie. random). Why am I the stupid one to think that intelligence can come from something unintelligent and random? Why does the 3rd law of thermodynamics only apply now, but not at the very beginning of everything? Just wondering.
tesseracter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st-March-2008, 11:56 PM   farlda's time 21st-March-2008, 11:56 PM    #8
farlda
Member
 
farlda's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Razzle Dazzle
Posts: 75
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

Origin: I have absolutely no idea. The more I think about it, the more detached from reality I become and then it all just gets scary ._.

Meaning: I believe that there is no original meaning for anyone. Those who feel the need for meaning create their own.

Morality: I think right and wrong exist, but are not absolute. Morality, therefore, is always subjective and differs with opinion and interpretation.

Destiny: Regardless of whether there is an afterlife or not, I feel it's important to live as if there isn't. I think it makes people clearer thinkers, more genuine to themselves and others.
farlda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd-March-2008, 06:43 AM   wadlez's time 22nd-March-2008, 04:13 PM    #9
wadlez
Member
 
wadlez's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 375
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

"Origin: I have absolutely no idea. The more I think about it, the more detached from reality I become and then it all just gets scary ._."

Awesome, I get the same thing man, we should discuss this some time.
Anyways,

Origin: Very tripped out. For one, there is a greater chance that we live in a computer simulation then the real universe. No matter how far back you go, big bang, god or whatever, There has to be a point where either everything exists or there is nothing, which trips me out. I believe in the big bang until science proves other wise.

Meaning: There is no set defined meaning, you create your own, Which Is allot more beautiful and infinitely more interesting than any set meaning

Morality: Morality is something we have evolved as animals. It is all perspective and wrong and right are human concepts, the universe has no set wrong and right.

Destiny: Humans will either create the technology to survive and get off this planet and evolve into something incomprehensible or die out.
The universe will repeatedly expand then collapse.
Death: 1. When you die, your mind might have the ability to change how it perceives time (why car accidents and shit happen in slow motion) and slow down time infinitely so no one actually ever dies, just dreams for ever.
2. your mind goes backwards in time and you relive your life over and over again
3. spectator mode till the computer simulation ends
Honestly I do believe that when you die you just cease to exist, like what happens when you stop playing The Sims and turn off your computer
wadlez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd-March-2008, 03:13 PM   farlda's time 22nd-March-2008, 03:14 PM    #10
farlda
Member
 
farlda's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Razzle Dazzle
Posts: 75
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

"For one, there is a greater chance that we live in a computer simulation then the real universe."

If this life were a simulation, then would 'real' not have (or need) a different meaning?

And I'm glad I'm not the only one who loses it when trying to work out where we came from
farlda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd-March-2008, 08:44 PM   Ermine's time 22nd-March-2008, 01:44 PM    #11
Ermine
is watching and taking notes
 
Ermine's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: casually playing guitar in my mental arena
Posts: 2,878
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

^ It's only a true simulation if everyone knows it's a simulation. However, I don't think a lot of people would have the discipline to go through with it and actually take part in the simulation, even if it isn't the real thing.
__________________
Ermine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd-March-2008, 12:39 PM   wadlez's time 23rd-March-2008, 10:09 PM    #12
wadlez
Member
 
wadlez's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 375
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

"It's only a true simulation if everyone knows it's a simulation. However, I don't think a lot of people would have the discipline to go through with it and actually take part in the simulation, even if it isn't the real thing."

Yeah, I think you might of miss understood what I meant by simulation Fernando.
By simulation, I mean a computer simulation that emulates a universe just like this one. It would just have physics programmed, start it off with the big bang, then just run from there. So our entire reality is just being ran inside a computer program not everyone acting out a created scenario like that movie jim carreys in
wadlez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd-March-2008, 03:11 PM   farlda's time 23rd-March-2008, 03:11 PM    #13
farlda
Member
 
farlda's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Razzle Dazzle
Posts: 75
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

Though if everything were a simulation, we would still be left with the problem of infinite recession or regression, can't remember which it is. There would have to be a creator of the computer and where did they come from ad infinitum.
farlda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th-March-2008, 12:30 PM   wadlez's time 25th-March-2008, 10:00 PM    #14
wadlez
Member
 
wadlez's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 375
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

My origin explanation didn't say that the computer simulation was the end, only a part of it
wadlez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th-March-2008, 03:12 PM   Cabbo Pearimo's time 25th-March-2008, 03:12 PM    #15
Cabbo Pearimo
Member
 
Cabbo Pearimo's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 715
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

If you know about the simulati theory, then there are three states, prisoner, open-minded, vivid. At least, I think that's what it is. Anyway, apparently there are two computer simulations, and in fact the simulation of life is a simulation inside a simulation created by the lucids to be a more comfortable zone. It's very complicated.






But probably a load of balls. In any case, we'll soon find out, won't we?
__________________
"I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day" -DNA
Cabbo Pearimo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th-March-2008, 09:32 PM   Wisp's time 25th-March-2008, 04:33 PM    #16
Wisp
The Soft Rational
 
Wisp's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: East Coast of USA
Posts: 1,291
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

THere could be an infinite nuber of levels of computer simulations above the one we're in.
__________________
Only a true genius realizes that nothing is certain... right? ~Me

Only the wisest of men will entertain an idea without endorsing it.

cogito ergo sum. ~Descartes
I think, therefore I am. ~Descartes
Wisp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th-March-2008, 10:48 PM   Cabbo Pearimo's time 26th-March-2008, 10:48 PM    #17
Cabbo Pearimo
Member
 
Cabbo Pearimo's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 715
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

it's always a possibility. About as possible as christians being right on the dot, but hey, you never know.
__________________
"I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day" -DNA
Cabbo Pearimo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th-March-2008, 04:11 AM   Wisp's time 26th-March-2008, 11:11 PM    #18
Wisp
The Soft Rational
 
Wisp's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: East Coast of USA
Posts: 1,291
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

Oh, the crackpot christians again?
__________________
Only a true genius realizes that nothing is certain... right? ~Me

Only the wisest of men will entertain an idea without endorsing it.

cogito ergo sum. ~Descartes
I think, therefore I am. ~Descartes
Wisp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th-March-2008, 12:36 PM   Cabbo Pearimo's time 27th-March-2008, 12:36 PM    #19
Cabbo Pearimo
Member
 
Cabbo Pearimo's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 715
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

I just think it's stupid to think that so many people could be right about a single deity. If there was a god everything would be like Terry Pratchet's disk world
__________________
"I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day" -DNA
Cabbo Pearimo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th-March-2008, 01:34 PM   EditorOne's time 27th-March-2008, 08:34 AM    #20
EditorOne
Resident Member
 
EditorOne's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Northeastern Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,045
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

"Operate according to the 'users manual' and we flourish"

Would that be the Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, Moslem, Druid, Inca, Aztec, Old Norse, Manechistic, Catharistic, ancient Greek, ancient Egyptian, Roman, or perhaps Luddite user manual?

Or did you have something else in mind as a manual?

:-)
__________________
WJW

I think, I think I am, therefore I am.
I think.
-- Moody Blues, In the Beginning

Need a public adjuster? (Yeah, you probably do.)
EditorOne is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 28th-March-2008, 02:21 PM   RobdoR's time 28th-March-2008, 05:21 PM    #21
RobdoR
Member
 
RobdoR's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 144
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

As a Christian and skeptical INTP, let me offer a different perspective:

Many people start with the "I think therefore I am" assumption that all you can really know is yourself. All else is suspect.

I start with the assumption "God is." Once that is established, concepts like sin, evil, right and wrong, creation, afterlife, joy, and suffering start to make more sense. From this vantage point I can see flaws in many arguments made by atheists and agnostics that they can not see. In the same way that many people are unable to accept Christianity because it does not make sense, I am unable to accept that it does not exist because nothing else makes sense.

I think part of the reason Christians are seen as ignorant crackpots is that most of them are other personality types. Rationals like us hold logic as the highest authority, but the other types - artisans SP, guardians SJ, and idealists NF - hold regard other things to be more convincing such as experiences, tradition, and convention. Traditionalists don't need to know the hows and the whys. If a trusted authority tells them it's so, it must be so. I have an ISFJ friend who refuses to debate theoretical issues with me. He says that those issues which can not affect his life are pointless and not worth discussing. This includes questions about eternity and the existence of God. He believes what he believes because it makes sense to him. somehow he is able to accept it and is fine with not being able to ever prove it.

I better stop now before I go on another tangent

Rob
RobdoR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st-March-2008, 12:31 PM   wadlez's time 31st-March-2008, 10:01 PM    #22
wadlez
Member
 
wadlez's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 375
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

If there was no bible, how would we know that god created the earth?
wadlez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st-March-2008, 06:44 PM   farlda's time 31st-March-2008, 06:44 PM    #23
farlda
Member
 
farlda's Avatar
 

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Razzle Dazzle
Posts: 75
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

Answer: We don't. Even though there is the Bible. And the Torah scrolls. And the Qu'ran. And all the other holy books I am too 'ignorant' to know the names of (words of my RE teacher - pompous bitch, she didn't teach me it, why should I fill her blanks?).

If it were provably true that god created the earth, then atheism would not exist. Since it's not, there is no way to know for sure. You either believe, or you don't.
__________________
"That's insane!" said the schizophrenic to the bipolar.
farlda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st-March-2008, 07:50 PM   Cabbo Pearimo's time 31st-March-2008, 07:51 PM    #24
Cabbo Pearimo
Member
 
Cabbo Pearimo's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 715
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

RobdoR, read 'the god delusion'. Either as a test of your faith or as an awakening.
__________________
"I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day" -DNA
Cabbo Pearimo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st-March-2008, 11:37 PM   Ermine's time 31st-March-2008, 04:37 PM    #25
Ermine
is watching and taking notes
 
Ermine's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: casually playing guitar in my mental arena
Posts: 2,878
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

Quote:
Originally Posted by wadlez View Post
If there was no bible, how would we know that god created the earth?
It's in the details. Even if I didn't know of any religion, I don't think I could come to any conclusion after scrutinizing the intricate system of nature other than the fact that someone created it. It's too complex to be random.
__________________
Ermine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st-April-2008, 11:23 AM   wadlez's time 1st-April-2008, 08:53 PM    #26
wadlez
Member
 
wadlez's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 375
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

Quote:
I don't think I could come to any conclusion after scrutinizing the intricate system of nature other than the fact that someone created it. It's too complex to be random
Quite right, You've made a simple mistake, but don't worry Its a very common mistake too. I think that you should look into a thing called Evolution. Its amazing, And it perfectly explains how life could of come about with having to resort to magic.
I wish i could swap places with you while you discover evolution, Your going to be amazed about how amazing the world is.
wadlez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st-April-2008, 07:01 PM   Ermine's time 1st-April-2008, 12:01 PM    #27
Ermine
is watching and taking notes
 
Ermine's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: casually playing guitar in my mental arena
Posts: 2,878
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

Trust me, I know about evolution. I just think that the process/concept of evolution is part of the design.
__________________
Ermine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd-April-2008, 07:07 AM   RobdoR's time 2nd-April-2008, 10:07 AM    #28
RobdoR
Member
 
RobdoR's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 144
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

While evolution has many merits, it still leaves several things unexplained, especially when you go back to how life started and the transition from simple life forms to more complex life forms. I think it's appealing to many people (especially INTPs) because it takes the mysticism out of the equation and doesn't ask us to believe something "just because." It expounds upon the story of life more than the first chapter of Genesis and uses logic as its guide. But when you start asking the tough questions like origin of life, and when you get into the details of how it actually works, evolution still leaves you wanting. The same questions that made you look for an explanation other than "God made it that way" are still there, just masked by a system of extensive logic. The new explanation is, "It took a really long time" backed up by, "We'll figure it out eventually." The questions are still explained away and not answered.

For this reason, I can not accept evolution as truth any more than I can accept the creation story.
RobdoR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd-April-2008, 10:01 PM   Cabbo Pearimo's time 2nd-April-2008, 10:01 PM    #29
Cabbo Pearimo
Member
 
Cabbo Pearimo's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 715
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

What are the chances that any worshiping religion has got it right? Do you really think that any of them, especially christianity, have found the exact wills of a living god, and have done them as stated? Now, what are the chances that there is a living god with wills? Any living god? Add it all together, it's probably almost negligable. But then again impossible to determine given its theological nature.
__________________
"I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day" -DNA
Cabbo Pearimo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th-April-2008, 02:23 AM   mm1991's time 9th-April-2008, 08:23 PM    #30
mm1991
Member
 
mm1991's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 186
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

The theory of macro-evolution is ridiculous. It's the "frog turned into a prince" story, only slowed down. Talk about a fantasy!
mm1991 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th-April-2008, 01:32 PM   Cabbo Pearimo's time 24th-April-2008, 01:32 PM    #31
Cabbo Pearimo
Member
 
Cabbo Pearimo's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 715
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

What is magic?
What is the begining?
What is god?
What is the point?
All in all, WHY?
__________________
"I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day" -DNA
Cabbo Pearimo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th-April-2008, 05:56 AM   Zero's time 26th-April-2008, 05:56 AM    #32
Zero
The Fiend
 

Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 894
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

"Origin:" It started a second ago, with that conscious ego that’s already gone.
"Meaning:" We create meaning, then subject everything to it.
"Morality:" It exists, because people made it exist and it runs through cultures, societies and time. It helps humanity function…
"Destiny: How does it all end? Is there afterlife?"
I hope not, because, sometimes, I get tired of being alone.

Last edited by Zero; 26th-April-2008 at 05:58 AM. Reason: I guess it's just so easy for everyone else hu?
Zero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th-May-2008, 01:38 AM   BulimicMind's time 10th-May-2008, 01:38 AM    #33
BulimicMind
Redshirt
 
BulimicMind's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 26
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

Origin: None. The Universe is eternal, flux.
Meaning: None. Or all, depending on your point of view. We observe reactions and induce the consequences.
Morality: An ye harm none, do what ye will.
Destiny: None. All is flux.
BulimicMind is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st-May-2008, 03:05 AM   Frosty's time 21st-May-2008, 01:05 PM    #34
Frosty
Member
 

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Down Under
Posts: 71
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

Origin: In the beginning, God created.
Meaning: To interact with the creator.
Morality: Love God, love people, love life.
Destiny: United with God.
__________________
It ainít what you donít know that gets you into trouble. Itís what you know for sure that just ainít so. -- Mark Twain
Frosty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st-May-2008, 03:13 AM   Jesin's time 20th-May-2008, 10:13 PM    #35
Jesin
Resident Member
 
Jesin's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,035
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

Quote:
Originally Posted by BulimicMind View Post
Origin: None. The Universe is eternal, flux.
Now that's just a cop out.
Jesin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st-May-2008, 03:17 AM   BulimicMind's time 21st-May-2008, 03:17 AM    #36
BulimicMind
Redshirt
 
BulimicMind's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 26
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

How so?
__________________
Some say that governments are necessary because some men just aren't prepared to look after themselves. Anarchists know all governments are harmful because no men are prepared to look after anyone else.
BulimicMind is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st-May-2008, 03:31 AM   Jesin's time 20th-May-2008, 10:32 PM    #37
Jesin
Resident Member
 
Jesin's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,035
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

I dunno. I guess I don't have any better answer.
Jesin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st-May-2008, 05:31 AM   Frosty's time 21st-May-2008, 03:31 PM    #38
Frosty
Member
 

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Down Under
Posts: 71
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

Perhaps you could argue that an eternal universe would require an infinitely long series of events (i.e an infinite causal chain). If that were so, then the probability of your own existence would be 1/infinity ... which approaches zero ... but since you know that you exist (if you doubt this, there are clearly "bigger problems" to solve!), the probability of your own existence is clearly 1/1, not 1/infinity ... therefore the universe cannot be eternal/infinite.
__________________
It ainít what you donít know that gets you into trouble. Itís what you know for sure that just ainít so. -- Mark Twain
Frosty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st-May-2008, 03:01 PM   murkrow's time 21st-May-2008, 10:01 AM    #39
murkrow
Member
 
murkrow's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Montreal
Posts: 435
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

Origin: Fuck it, doesn't matter.
Meaning: If it's inherited then fuck it, if it's self imposed then impose it.
Morality: Yes, right and wrong can be divined from logic applied to feeling. I am unsure on the specifics regarding this, however I am certain that right and wrong exist.
Destiny: We become divine and lose all purpose... not sure on that one either.
murkrow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th-May-2008, 12:28 AM   Privateer's time 25th-May-2008, 12:28 AM    #40
Privateer
Redshirt
 

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Inside my own skull.
Posts: 13
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

Origin: Accident of physics.
Meaning: Make your own. Some folks have none.
Morality: Ah, well...google the word 'Ma'at'.
Destiny: There are multiple agencies at work, each with their own ideals and visions of what 'should be'. Destiny is whichever one wins out in the end.
Privateer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th-May-2008, 12:59 AM   yellowing's time 25th-May-2008, 07:59 PM    #41
yellowing
Redshirt
 

Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

The problem with the questions as posed is that they already assume that there is a god.

If there was no god, how could life have a meaning? How could we be put on Earth for a 'purpose' if there was no one to put us on Earth? Does evolution carry some sort of task for us besides the 'multiply, multiply' of Darwinism?

Can we accept that there is no preset meaning or destiny and live our lives above that, make our own meanings, our own destiny? Accept ourselves as self-employed and find meaningful fulfilling tasks which are even more meaningful and fulfilling because we chose them for ourselves? I think that there is a beauty in the idea that our lives have no purpose or destiny. It gives us leave to choose for ourselves. When we think our choices through perhaps we will come to the conclusion that the life which will make us happiest is the life in which we cause the least pain, the most good.

In the same way, I believe we all must create our own morality by closely examining the world and choosing for ourselves that which we believe is the most right, the most good. The benefit of not taking a pre-existing set of moral codes, but of examining ethical principals for ones self is that when you have chosen your own ethics you will be more convinced of their rightness and have more conviction to follow them. You are also free to conclude differently from the masses.

Myself, I take these things and follow them. Given the freedom to choose my own life, my own purpose, I choose to love others to the best of my ability, because I know that love makes me the happiest, and to appreciate beauty where I find it. Ethically I endeavor to cause as little harm as I can, to myself, as well as to all other beings and to the planet, and to do as much good-- that is to prevent the most harm and to cause the most well-being-- as I can. I take additional pleasure in that I am not doing these things because I believe they will win me entrance into 'heaven', but because I believe they are the right things to do.

As to the origin of the universe-- I do not believe it is something which it is possible for me to conceive of. For every possible explanation I have heard, it is always possible ask 'what came before that?' If god is suggested, then what created god? If the big bang, where did the matter come from? Eternity seems the only possible explanation because I cannot wrap my mind around finity.
yellowing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th-May-2008, 01:57 AM   Frosty's time 26th-May-2008, 11:57 AM    #42
Frosty
Member
 

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Down Under
Posts: 71
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowing
... I believe we all must create our own morality by closely examining the world and choosing for ourselves that which we believe is the most right, the most good. The benefit of not taking a pre-existing set of moral codes, but of examining ethical principals for ones self is that when you have chosen your own ethics you will be more convinced of their rightness and have more conviction to follow them. You are also free to conclude differently from the masses.
Do you support another's right to have a morality that says its okay to kill you if they want? If not, why not? e.g. Why should your preferred morality take precedence over theirs?
__________________
It ainít what you donít know that gets you into trouble. Itís what you know for sure that just ainít so. -- Mark Twain
Frosty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th-May-2008, 01:54 PM   yellowing's time 26th-May-2008, 08:54 AM    #43
yellowing
Redshirt
 

Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

There are others who believe that it is okay to kill me. Members of extremist religions, for example, might think that god would look in favor of killing a heretic. The majority of people seem to think that killing is wrong, if only for their own self-preservation and that of those whom they love, and yet there is so much killing in the world, I have to wonder if these beliefs hold true. It seems like many people only refrain from killing because of the law and the fear of being outcasts. In places where these pressures are removed and others put in place, Rwanda for example, people did not hesitate to kill their neighbors and former friends.
I can not say that my idea of what is right supersedes another. All I can do is continue to act in a way that I think is right. Should there be laws preventing people from murdering each other? Yes. The implications of a lack of murder laws I think would be socially disruptive. And I also think that the laws should reflect the majority-- and the majority seem to believe that murder is wrong.
yellowing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th-May-2008, 11:14 PM   Frosty's time 27th-May-2008, 09:14 AM    #44
Frosty
Member
 

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Down Under
Posts: 71
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowing
Should there be laws preventing people from murdering each other? Yes. The implications of a lack of murder laws I think would be socially disruptive. And I also think that the laws should reflect the majority-- and the majority seem to believe that murder is wrong.
Interesting. Yet your statement that "... would be socially disruptive" is itself a moral judgement. Some further questions would be:

-- why should anyone care if murder is socially disruptive? (try to answer without appealing just to your own moral code, which a hypothetical other persondoesn't hold to be true); and

-- you said "if the majority believe that murder is wrong" so, if they believed that it was right, you'd get right on board with that too?

Without a transcendant morality (an objective standard, not derived from "majority vote") I think you are on a very dangerous slippery slope. Its very common for people to think that they can get away with this, but then when the majority wrong them they cry "foul" and start using words like "ought" or "should" in a way that is not logically consistent with their preferred (conscious) moral position.
__________________
It ainít what you donít know that gets you into trouble. Itís what you know for sure that just ainít so. -- Mark Twain
Frosty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th-May-2008, 11:28 PM   Jesin's time 26th-May-2008, 06:28 PM    #45
Jesin
Resident Member
 
Jesin's Avatar
 

Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,035
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowing View Post
And I also think that the laws should reflect the majority
The majority is not always right about morality. Have you read Stranger in a Strange Land?
Jesin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th-May-2008, 11:32 PM   yellowing's time 26th-May-2008, 06:32 PM    #46
yellowing
Redshirt
 

Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

I didn't say I follow the reasoning of the majority, only that the laws do, and should, as the laws in a democracy should reflect the will of the majority. The majority believes that the murder of animals is right, but I believe it is wrong, yet I do not follow them. I am only talking about laws in this case. Something which is socially disruptive would make life difficult for many people (hence 'socially disruptive'), and so it is clear that it would be in the best interest of the people if they disallowed it.
I am not saying what people ought to do, I am merely commenting on the practice of making laws.
yellowing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th-May-2008, 12:26 AM   Frosty's time 27th-May-2008, 10:26 AM    #47
Frosty
Member
 

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Down Under
Posts: 71
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowing
I didn't say I follow the reasoning of the majority, only that the laws do, and should, as the laws in a democracy should reflect the will of the majority. The majority believes that the murder of animals is right, but I believe it is wrong, yet I do not follow them.
But this is the very thing I'm trying to point out. WHY do you think that the murder of animals is wrong?

You see, you first appealed to the fact that what the majority decides could (or should?) be the basis of morailty. Yet you now say that you are against the majority.

So ... either you are immoral for believing that the murder of animals is wrong ... or maybe (I think much more likely) you have an INHERENT BELIEF or view of what is right and wrong that is NOT derived from what the majority believe (i.e. a transcendent morality).

I'm happy to consider other options, but in the absence of others being offered: Are you in fact immoral, or are you deriving your moral judgements from a transcendent morality?
__________________
It ainít what you donít know that gets you into trouble. Itís what you know for sure that just ainít so. -- Mark Twain
Frosty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th-June-2008, 05:12 PM   Jordan~'s time 9th-June-2008, 05:12 PM    #48
Jordan~
Resident Member
 
Jordan~'s Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Posts: 1,967
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

Origin: The Big Bang theory, the Theory of Evolution.
Meaning: None intrinsic, we can give ourselves purpose (: . meaning) if we wish.
Morality: A morally good action is any which enhances or lengthens the positive aspect of experience of any consciousness with a varied experience of the universe one aspect of which is preferable, or reduces or shortens the negative aspect thereof, with the acted-upon's perspective taking weight over the actor's. Though there is no universal intrinsic concept of "good", following this philosophy is the most beneficial to the most consciousnesses with varied experience (i.e., things which can benefit).
Destiny: Heat death will end the universe, there is no afterlife. Hopefully one day we'll transcend corporeality, which is a little bit like creating an "afterlife".
Jordan~ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th-February-2009, 01:48 AM   Da Blob's time 7th-February-2009, 07:48 PM    #49
Da Blob
Banned
 

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 5,949
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobdoR View Post
A favorite philosopher/theologian of mine Ravi Zacharias often asks four questions necessary to any world view: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny. I'm interested to hear how you answer these questions.

Origin: How did it all start?
Meaning: Why are we here? Why is anything here?
Morality: Do right and wrong exist? If so, what standard should we use?
Destiny: How does it all end? Is there afterlife?
Origin: How did it all start?
Can't Beat Geometry, It started at the Center, then moved...

Meaning: Why are we here? Why is anything here?
Only one answer to the question, "WHY?", but we can't hear that answer yet...

Morality: Do right and wrong exist? If so, what standard should we use?
Do Right answers and Wrong answers Exist? One that is Reliable and Valid

Destiny: How does it all end? Is there afterlife?
It Ends in Death, but is Death metamorphic and a process of rebirth?
Ask the Caterpillar, Then ask the Butterfly...
Da Blob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th-February-2009, 04:50 AM   BurnoutPriest's time 7th-February-2009, 11:50 PM    #50
BurnoutPriest
Member
 

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 68
Default Re: Origin, Meaning, Morality, and Destiny

Origin: Energy/Higher Dimensional Overlap

Meaning: The concept was created by humans. It can be changed or assigned by humans just as easily.

Morality: Once again a human construct. Morality isn't intrinsic in any action or intent. The most common understanding of it is, in essence, an illusion in my view.

Destiny: The future.

(This is all based on what I currently know. If, say, dualism makes a sudden philosophical comeback my views will probably change dramatically)
BurnoutPriest is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Origin of the Four Temperaments Wish MBTI & Typology Archive 2 30th-December-2009 08:51 PM
The origin of our hesitance Decaf Psychology & Neuroscience Archive 7 28th-December-2009 06:10 AM
Destiny vs. Free Will Andy Old Philosophy & Faith Subforum Archive 10 20th-September-2009 11:56 PM
Origin of Small talk Fedayeen Siberia 7 23rd-May-2009 05:59 AM
Your Destiny as an AI Persona? Da Blob Suggestions, Questions & Feedback 2 14th-March-2009 12:31 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:18 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Template-Modifications by TMS



no new posts