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Old 10th-April-2009, 03:47 AM   shatterspike1's time 9th-April-2009, 08:47 PM    #1
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Default INxP

I did some checking with both the INTP and INFP profiles, and both fit me equally well. Each addresses quite a few of the habits and mental processes I have, but only say, 90% each. I eventually determined myself to be an INxP. Is there anyone else here like that?
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Old 10th-April-2009, 03:58 AM   Red Mage's time 9th-April-2009, 10:58 PM    #2
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<------that guy
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Old 10th-April-2009, 04:01 AM   FacetiousPersona's time 10th-April-2009, 04:01 AM    #3
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I'm an INFP and would love to help you.
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Old 10th-April-2009, 04:11 AM   Waterstiller's time 9th-April-2009, 08:12 PM    #4
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Default Re: INxP

Even if it's just slightly, which of these two do you identify with most?


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Introverted Thinking

Introverted Thinking often involves finding just the right word to clearly express an idea concisely, crisply, and to the point. Using introverted Thinking is like having an internal sense of the essential qualities of something, noticing the fine distinctions that make it what it is and then naming it. It also involves an internal reasoning process of deriving subcategories of classes and sub-principles of general principles. These can then be used in problem solving, analysis, and refining of a product or an idea. This process is evidenced in behaviors like taking things or ideas apart to figure out how they work. The analysis involves looking at different sides of an issue and seeing where there is inconsistency. In so doing, we search for a “leverage point” that will fix problems with the least amount of effort or damage to the system. We engage in this process when we notice logical inconsistencies between statements and frameworks, using a model to evaluate the likely accuracy of what’s observed.



Introverted Feeling

It is often hard to assign words to the values used to make introverted Feeling judgments since they are often associated with images, feeling tones, and gut reactions more than words. As a cognitive process, it often serves as a filter for information that matches what is valued, wanted, or worth believing in. There can be a continual weighing of the situational worth or importance of everything and a patient balancing of the core issues of peace and conflict in life’s situations. We engage in the process of introverted Feeling when a value is compromised and we think, “Sometimes, some things just have to be said.” On the other hand, most of the time this process works “in private” and is expressed through actions. It helps us know when people are being fake or insincere or if they are basically good. It is like having an internal sense of the “essence” of a person or a project and reading fine distinctions among feeling tones.
http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/in...edfeeling.html


I identify with INFP profiles quite a bit, but I'm definitely Ti.


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Old 10th-April-2009, 04:31 AM   Red Mage's time 9th-April-2009, 11:32 PM    #5
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Default Re: INxP

I think the descriptions of types with F in them on the interwebs focus too much on the aspect of F where you're in touch with people, like to touch them, and always want to help others. There are plenty of xxFx's who don't care one bit about other people, but still use F as their decision-making function. People who read these may incorrectly assume they're a T because they're not good socially and withdraw from other people.
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Old 10th-April-2009, 04:32 AM   shatterspike1's time 9th-April-2009, 09:32 PM    #6
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Default Re: INxP

I file with both quite equally. If I had to pick, I'd say a very slight distinction towards the Ti aspect.
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Old 10th-April-2009, 06:55 AM   Ermine's time 9th-April-2009, 11:55 PM    #7
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Default Re: INxP

Another near INFP at your service. It's really odd being between Ti and Fi. They're so at odds and I often find myself alternating with feelings and deductions and I often can't reconcile the two methods.
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Old 10th-April-2009, 09:50 AM   sagewolf's time 10th-April-2009, 04:51 AM    #8
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Default Re: INxP

*Raises hand* Another one here; hah. I'm torn between T and F too, but I eventually decided that I'm a T on the basis that the decisions I make with Ti are (in general) more effective/sensible/mature than the ones I make with Fi, and I also have fairly developed Fe (more developed than Fi, actually) which points me more toward INTP.
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Old 10th-April-2009, 12:58 PM   flow's time 10th-April-2009, 06:58 AM    #9
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Default Re: INxP

This guy. I like it though... I think we all need balance between thinking and feeling. Although the same could be said for any aspect of personality. Ultimately I think we should all strive to be XXXX. Until then, I remain intp.
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Old 10th-April-2009, 06:22 PM   Reverse Transcriptase's time 10th-April-2009, 10:22 AM    #10
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Default Re: INxP

I think our current strategy for typing this guy is wrong. We're focusing on T versus F, we should focus on the difference between NT and NF.

(Btw, you're iNtuitive! That means you're a good person by me.)

If you're NT, it means you probably yearn to understand, to learn more, and you're not effected by society's structure when it comes to your crusade.

If you're NF, you really enjoy meeting people and making connections with them. You also don't care for society's structure... you care for your friends!
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Old 10th-April-2009, 07:18 PM   Fukyo's time 10th-April-2009, 08:18 PM    #11
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Default Re: INxP

Quote:
Originally Posted by civilianjones View Post
If you're NT, it means you probably yearn to understand, to learn more, and you're not effected by society's structure when it comes to your crusade.

If you're NF, you really enjoy meeting people and making connections with them. You also don't care for society's structure... you care for your friends!
I identify with both of these descriptions,except the part about enjoying to meet people and making connection with them.That doesn't apply to me and I consider myself to be an INFP.
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Old 10th-April-2009, 09:28 PM   Reverse Transcriptase's time 10th-April-2009, 01:28 PM    #12
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Default Re: INxP

Hmmm okay.

shatterspike, have any poetry or prose? We could try reading that and guess what you are then.

ALSO you could read the Paul James profile of INTPs. It's the best profile of INTPs there is. If you are one, you'll be laughing at the similarity. If not, you'll see some differences. Especially since Paul James writes about how INTPs use their Thinking function.
http://www.intp.org/intprofile.html

^That should really just be required reading for every new person we have.
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Old 10th-April-2009, 11:58 PM   mathy's time 10th-April-2009, 05:58 PM    #13
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Default Re: INxP

I'm rather in the same conundrum, but I suppose I probably lean towards T, but with a healthy dose of F. Many of the aspects of Paul James' profile were accurate (frighteningly so), but I'm a bit more extroverted than his description, and I think that might be what gives me the extra punch of Fe (or at least makes it seem so).

I'm really new to all this typing stuff, so bear with my ignorance whilst I learn.
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Old 11th-April-2009, 02:47 AM   shatterspike1's time 10th-April-2009, 07:47 PM    #14
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Default Re: INxP

Quote:
Originally Posted by civilianjones View Post
If you're NT, it means you probably yearn to understand, to learn more, and you're not effected by society's structure when it comes to your crusade.

If you're NF, you really enjoy meeting people and making connections with them. You also don't care for society's structure... you care for your friends!

It's both, for me. It's a weird dual nature to need to understand and to need to care, to make better.

My writing itself is both mechanically appealing and artistic, or equally so. I tend to leave design documents for games partially written. My Fi and Ti are pretty much the same in function, and it's a weird feeling having both the thought and emotion run through at the same time.

I read the Paul Jones profile, and it fits me about 90%. A few things are out of place alone.

Last edited by shatterspike1; 11th-April-2009 at 02:47 AM. Reason: Added in response
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Old 11th-April-2009, 03:18 AM   Auburn's time 10th-April-2009, 07:18 PM    #15
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Default Re: INxP

I'm not sure if you've done this yet, but this test might help you.... ^^;

Glad to have you here, btw
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Old 11th-April-2009, 03:36 AM   shatterspike1's time 10th-April-2009, 08:36 PM    #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auburn View Post
I'm not sure if you've done this yet, but this test might help you.... ^^;

Glad to have you here, btw
I took the test

Ne was by far the highest
Ti was second, with Fi a very close third
Ni was fourth

Everything else is ancillary.

And thank you.
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Old 11th-April-2009, 03:58 AM   Red Mage's time 10th-April-2009, 10:58 PM    #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auburn View Post
I'm not sure if you've done this yet, but this test might help you....
I was just thinking earlier today that all of the MBTI tests I've taken suck because they ask questions that determine whether you prefer T or F, N or S, etc. and not whether you use Ti or Te, Fi or Fe, etc. more often.

That test was great, if a bit confusing. Anway, my order is as follows:

Ne
Ti
Ni
Fi, Te
Si
Fe
Se

Somehow, though, it determined that my type is most likely INTP. However, INTPs prefer the order Ti then Ne, whilst I apparently prefer Ne and then Ti which is the preference of ENTP. Both types prefer Si and Fe, but in the opposite order. I prefer Si over Fe very slightly, which is INTP -- ENTP is Fe then Si.

I've also been thinking that it would seem my information-gathering function (which I've been 99.999% sure is one of the N's) is greater than my decision-making function (which I wasn't quite sure was Te, Ti, or Fi). Although, maybe I'm INTP and for some reason just haven't developed my primary function as much.
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Old 11th-April-2009, 08:39 AM   chocolate's time 11th-April-2009, 01:39 AM    #18
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Default Re: INxP

Mac: A similar thing happened to me, my top function was Ti, followed by Ne, Fe, Se (then the rest in some order), and it determined me as ENTP.

I think some of us (cheese and...ermine?) hypothesized that it counts the orientation of your top functions, so despite your highest function being extraverted, you can't be an extravert because you have more introverted functions at the top of the list (but I don't really understand it too well; currently, I like the idea of a best-fit rather than an actual type).
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Old 11th-April-2009, 05:01 PM   Ermine's time 11th-April-2009, 10:01 AM    #19
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Default Re: INxP

^ Same thing goes for me. I would be an ENTP but my Si is higher than my Fe. And if I remember right, my hypothesis was that we are strong in introverted functions we aren't necessarily conscious of purely due to our overall introversion.

18 - Ne
18 - Ti
10 - Ni
5 - Fi
5 - Si
3 - Se
3 - Te
2 - Fe
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Old 13th-April-2009, 12:35 AM   Legionnaire's time 12th-April-2009, 07:35 PM    #20
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Default Re: INxP

For awhile I wasn't sure which I was (even driven insane or close to it, trying to find the answer) but I finally figured I wanted to be more like a feeler but I'm not. I'm a thinker, both my parents are thinkers as well. Though we do differ in types. I'm INTP, Mother is ESTJ and Dad is ISTP. I think people often take the tests and choose what they want to be and not actually reflect on what they are currently doing and what they've done in the past.
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Old 13th-April-2009, 12:49 AM   LucasM's time 12th-April-2009, 05:49 PM    #21
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Default Re: INxP

I am similar too. Thinking I may be more 'F'. Feeling I may be more 'T'.
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Old 13th-April-2009, 03:26 PM   snowqueen's time 13th-April-2009, 03:26 PM    #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legionnaire View Post
For awhile I wasn't sure which I was (even driven insane or close to it, trying to find the answer) but I finally figured I wanted to be more like a feeler but I'm not. I'm a thinker, both my parents are thinkers as well. Though we do differ in types. I'm INTP, Mother is ESTJ and Dad is ISTP. I think people often take the tests and choose what they want to be and not actually reflect on what they are currently doing and what they've done in the past.

Yes I agree. I did the test in the past and definitely chose based on what I wanted or imagined I wanted to be. So I came out with much more E and F and then when I read the profiles I thought 'that's nothing like me' and decided the MBTI was rubbish.
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Old 13th-April-2009, 07:59 PM   pussinboots's time 13th-April-2009, 07:59 PM    #23
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Default Re: INxP

i quite happily straddle the t/f.
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Old 13th-April-2009, 08:57 PM   mathy's time 13th-April-2009, 02:57 PM    #24
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Default Re: INxP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac OS X Ocelot View Post
I was just thinking earlier today that all of the MBTI tests I've taken suck because they ask questions that determine whether you prefer T or F, N or S, etc. and not whether you use Ti or Te, Fi or Fe, etc. more often.
Agreed. (Especially since many times I use BOTH thinking and feeling...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac OS X Ocelot View Post
I've also been thinking that it would seem my information-gathering function (which I've been 99.999% sure is one of the N's) is greater than my decision-making function (which I wasn't quite sure was Te, Ti, or Fi).
Agree with this, too.

Oh, I can generate possibilities ALL day. But will I ever decide on any of them? Nah. (Too many choices! What if I decide to change my mind again--seems to happen all too frequently. Hell, I've had about 6 different majors... Seems to risky. Especially if it affects a loved one (i.e. taking off to some distant land to pursue photography--not sure my S.O. would be too happy about this.))

...

That said, here are my results:

Ti - 19
Fi - 14
Ne - 14
Ni - 13
Se - 12
Fe - 5
Si - 4
Te - 4

Still an INTP, although the high Fi score may explain why I've been somewhat baffled. It does seem to solidify my introverted-ness and my Ti-ness.

It's odd, I always expect that I will have a pretty high score on Fe-type questions, but when I get to them and read them... I just can't agree with them. It's not that I don't care about others (and subsequently, sometimes my decisions are affected due to considerations for others--I genuinely don't want to hurt or bother others) it's just that I don't go out of my way to try to make them happy I guess. And I'm not very empathetic.

What does it all mean?? :(

EDIT: Meant to thank Auburn as well for linking the test--seems far more accurate than the others I've taken.
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Old 13th-April-2009, 11:13 PM   shalom's time 13th-April-2009, 03:13 PM    #25
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Default Re: INxP

auburn, thanks so much for posting that test. it's by far the best personality test I've taken as of yet. very interesting...

Fi
Ni
Te
Si
Ne
Ti
Fe
Se
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Old 14th-April-2009, 04:40 AM   Red Mage's time 13th-April-2009, 11:40 PM    #26
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Default Re: INxP

Shalom, do you remember what it said your possible personality type was with that? I think the closest would be INFP (Fi Ne Si Te).

Edit: I just noticed in your profile that you're INFP. Is that what this same functions test gave you, though?
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Old 15th-April-2009, 04:15 PM   sagewolf's time 15th-April-2009, 11:16 AM    #27
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Default Re: INxP

I took that test, yeah-- It came out like this: (can't remember the numbers exactly)

Ti
Ne
Fe
Si/Fi/Ni (all the same)
Te/Se (they got about 2)
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Old 15th-April-2009, 06:02 PM   Auburn's time 15th-April-2009, 10:02 AM    #28
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Default Re: INxP

Quote:
Originally Posted by sagewolf View Post
Ti
Ne
Fe
Si/Fi/Ni (all the same)
Te/Se (they got about 2)
Ha! O.O
That's pretty much just like me....
Or at least the way that I see them in myself....


@shalom - you're welcome Ya, I really like the appreach that this test takes in defining one's personality. I find it much more accurate and specific, although still not perfect. And it's good to hear from you again.
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Old 19th-May-2009, 12:27 PM   nightowl's time 19th-May-2009, 06:27 AM    #29
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Default Re: INxP

Thank you, Auburn, for the link.

Based on some testing and studying the different types, decided that INFP was the best one for me. Was really surprised when I took that test from your link and Ti, Ni, Te, and Fi were all scored essentially the same with just a point or two between them followed closely by Ne and Fe.

Now I consider myself an INFP with an extremely high Ti although INxP would also be work. Those of you who are also quite comfortable with T/F, what stressors "block" your thought and decision processes and steer you towards F or T? Could that help determine you to finally decide INTP or INTF or are you comfortable with the INxP classification?

The reason "INFP with an extremely high Ti" works best for me, I think, is because when I am forced to interact with negative and highly negative energy people, all that negative energy literally overwhelms me and makes accessing my Ti much more difficult. That, and the weighing against my personal values. It is only with age and experience that I am learning how to handle these situations and people...the natural detachment you INTP's seem to have.

T and F arguing in my head is also a tremendous stressor when making decisions in conflicting situations; sometimes, it's like a war in there.

Feedback, please. Still studying and learning about MBTI.
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Old 19th-May-2009, 03:33 PM   Beat Mango's time 20th-May-2009, 01:33 AM    #30
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Why does that website not work for me :(
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Old 19th-May-2009, 04:00 PM   mathy's time 19th-May-2009, 10:00 AM    #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightowl View Post
T and F arguing in my head is also a tremendous stressor when making decisions in conflicting situations; sometimes, it's like a war in there.
Oh man, me too. I also have about 4 functions that are very close--Ti, Fi, Ne, Ni, sometimes Se (depending on the test). It really is like war sometimes... o.O
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Old 21st-May-2009, 10:02 PM   Decaf's time 21st-May-2009, 02:02 PM    #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightowl View Post
Thank you, Auburn, for the link.

Based on some testing and studying the different types, decided that INFP was the best one for me. Was really surprised when I took that test from your link and Ti, Ni, Te, and Fi were all scored essentially the same with just a point or two between them followed closely by Ne and Fe.

Now I consider myself an INFP with an extremely high Ti although INxP would also be work. Those of you who are also quite comfortable with T/F, what stressors "block" your thought and decision processes and steer you towards F or T? Could that help determine you to finally decide INTP or INTF or are you comfortable with the INxP classification?

The reason "INFP with an extremely high Ti" works best for me, I think, is because when I am forced to interact with negative and highly negative energy people, all that negative energy literally overwhelms me and makes accessing my Ti much more difficult. That, and the weighing against my personal values. It is only with age and experience that I am learning how to handle these situations and people...the natural detachment you INTP's seem to have.

T and F arguing in my head is also a tremendous stressor when making decisions in conflicting situations; sometimes, it's like a war in there.

Feedback, please. Still studying and learning about MBTI.
INTP vs. INFP

Detachment is not QUITE as natural as it might seem. Inferior functions (for the INTP, Fe) occupy a nebulous space in the hierarchy as the only function that is predominately unconscious, but still has the capacity to operate on a conscious level. That's why when you engage in said function it often comes across as immature or naive. The function is almost literally half asleep.

Why does that matter? Any INTP who has been in a committed relationship (especially if it involved a shared residence) is familiar with a problem that happens when the other person becomes emotionally upset. We feel terrible. Its not sympathy, its empathy. We feel what they feel. How do we stop ourselves from doing that? That's right, detachment. Because we don't rely on our Fe to help us run our daily lives, we stuff it in the closet and only let it out on accident or when we really need it. From my experience, most INTPs believe at one point or another that they are INFPs. This includes me. The reason is that an INTPs emotional side is strong, but often hidden. We sense it in ourselves but do not see it in those in which feel are, otherwise, most similar (i.e. the other members of this forum). Accepting that a strong emotional side is part and parcel with being an INTP and much of the confusion goes away. What remains is obviously for you to decide, but I'll try to help how I can.

______

I'm going to have to think about the INFP side a bit more because it doesn't come as intuitively. I'll write out my advice for an INTP below and can I get back to you for the INFP perspective?
______

INTP

What you have to remember is that Ti IS a J trait. The fact that you're a intP only means that your primary extraverted trait is a perceiving one. Ti has a tendency to mull things over almost indefinitely, but once its made up its mind, its VERY difficult to change it. Picture it like the last puzzle piece. It may take all day, but once it drops into place, just try to dig it out without tearing up half the puzzle in the process. What you're experiencing is your dominant Ti making a decision and then delegating to your other functions, which is why it feels uncomfortable. Through reflection you can re-engage your Ti to continue to look at the problem, but unless you do, it can be hard to change course.

Te has a similar appearance, but a different motivation. It demands that the outside world come to some kind of order (as opposed to an INTPs demand that their internal world is organized). They both demand order and sometimes your internal order is going to have to impose itself on the outside world. Hence the problem.

What I believe is more likely is that your inferior function, Fe, is imposing itself now that Ti is no longer dominating the landscape. Do you recognize emotional content in your J-like behavior or does it feel like callous delegation? Do you recognize the offense you might cause during or after (even if you're unable to wholly stop yourself)? If during, then do you think that level of "other awareness" is greater than you generally exhibit?

This could be the wrong tact to take on the problem, but let me know if this is helpful.
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Old 21st-May-2009, 10:42 PM   echoplex's time 21st-May-2009, 05:43 PM    #33
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^Very informative post.

One question that has come to mind for me is: What is supposed to be the role of Fi for an INTP, and Ti for an INFP? Most descriptions only talk about the leading four functions. I, like many here, feel that my Fi is often as strong as my Ti, even though Fi is supposed to be a shadow function for us.

I have seen it described as our "devilish" function, although it was tough to grasp exactly what that means. It seems to me to mean that it's a function we are tempted to abuse or use too much. So perhaps some of us are just naughty INxPs? lol
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Old 22nd-May-2009, 02:41 AM   Decaf's time 21st-May-2009, 06:41 PM    #34
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The four final functions are our unconscious functions. Unfortunately it is so immensely difficult to study something we don't understand very well even on a basic level that there's not much to say. We use those functions, but generally only as tools to the conscious functions. At least, that's how it feels. Those processes can still be developed, but they're unlikely to give you much satisfaction in doing so as they'll be difficult to apply on command.
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Old 22nd-May-2009, 04:00 PM   Concojones's time 22nd-May-2009, 05:00 PM    #35
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Decaf, I like to think of myself (INTP) as a strong F, too, so it's with interest that I read your last posts.

- You talk about our strong empathy (applies to me too). But isn't this Fi? If so, isn't that in contradiction with MBTI which says our Fi should be unconscious? I even think that my Fi is stronger than Fe.

- For what it's worth, here's my personal reply to your question to Nightowl. Does it make sense to you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Decaf View Post
Do you recognize emotional content in your J-like behavior or does it feel like callous delegation? Do you recognize the offense you might cause during or after (even if you're unable to wholly stop yourself)? If during, then do you think that level of "other awareness" is greater than you generally exhibit?
Emotional content: yes, definitely (in the case of 'F judging', which is of course less frequent than 'T judging')
Recognize the offense: after I say/do something (again, in the case of 'F judging')
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Old 22nd-May-2009, 04:58 PM   flow's time 22nd-May-2009, 10:58 AM    #36
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That chart, decaf, reminds of why I love marijuana so much. Whenever I'm high I find myself doing some extroverted thinking (although usually it's introverted thinking on high), introverted intuition, extroverted sensing, and introverted feeling. It's like my secondary functions come alive. Hmm.
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Old 22nd-May-2009, 09:41 PM   brain enclosed in flesh's time 22nd-May-2009, 02:41 PM    #37
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Originally Posted by nightowl View Post

Based on some testing and studying the different types, decided that INFP was the best one for me. Was really surprised when I took that test from your link and Ti, Ni, Te, and Fi were all scored essentially the same with just a point or two between them followed closely by Ne and Fe.

Now I consider myself an INFP with an extremely high Ti although INxP would also be work. Those of you who are also quite comfortable with T/F, what stressors "block" your thought and decision processes and steer you towards F or T? Could that help determine you to finally decide INTP or INTF or are you comfortable with the INxP classification?

The reason "INFP with an extremely high Ti" works best for me, I think, is because when I am forced to interact with negative and highly negative energy people, all that negative energy literally overwhelms me and makes accessing my Ti much more difficult. That, and the weighing against my personal values. It is only with age and experience that I am learning how to handle these situations and people...the natural detachment you INTP's seem to have.

T and F arguing in my head is also a tremendous stressor when making decisions in conflicting situations; sometimes, it's like a war in there.

Feedback, please. Still studying and learning about MBTI.
This isn't a direct answer to your question, but I am in the same boat as you.
How I would put it:

In myself I am an INFP. To the outside world, I display as an INTP. I'll explain:

Someone kills a bee. How I feel inside: "You bastard. What the hell did that bee ever do to you? He is a being of value and you destroyed him for no good reason. I wish I could punch you in the stomach, unfeeling blob of disgustingness."

What I say: "You know, bees are essential to anything that requires pollination. You shouldn't kill them because they play an important role in the natural world."

Exception: I am interacting with an xxTJ type. I become the feelingest feelie on the planet (at least in my eyes). Afterwards I'm a little disgusted with myself but it is an automatic response I can't control. I guess this would fall in line with what you say about negative energy, because that's pretty much how I feel as well.

So yeah, not much new here. But I can relate.
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Old 22nd-May-2009, 11:08 PM   sagewolf's time 22nd-May-2009, 06:08 PM    #38
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@echoplex: Here's a description of the devilish role.

Quote:
Originally Posted by some-website-or-other
The devilish role can be quite negative. Using the process that plays this role, we might become destructive of ourselves or others. Actions (or inactions) taken when we engage in the process that plays this role are often regretted later. Usually, we are unaware of how to use the process that fills this role and feel like it just erupts and imposes itself rather unconsciously. Yet when we are open to the process that plays the devilish role, it becomes transformative. It gives us the impetus to create something new—to make lemonade out of lemons, rather than lament their sourness.
@Concojones: No, empathy is related to Fe, extraverted feeling. Fi structures the inner world in the same way that Ti does, just with different criteria. It uses values to decide the importance or worth of a concept rather than logic. Fe helps us when we interact with people (empathy, as well as social grace and connection with others) as well as when we recognise and identify the unspoken rules and norms of society. It's part of what enables us to be 'chameleons'. Does that help?
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Old 23rd-May-2009, 12:15 AM   brain enclosed in flesh's time 22nd-May-2009, 05:15 PM    #39
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No, empathy is related to Fe, extraverted feeling. Fi structures the inner world in the same way that Ti does, just with different criteria. It uses values to decide the importance or worth of a concept rather than logic. Fe helps us when we interact with people (empathy, as well as social grace and connection with others) as well as when we recognise and identify the unspoken rules and norms of society. It's part of what enables us to be 'chameleons'. Does that help?
Does the empathy you refer to also include empathy toward animals and potentially inanimate objects? Because this is what confuses me. I have ridiculously uncontrollable empathy in regard to certain beings, but I also am not the best about, say, writing thank you notes or calling someone back when they've called me. In fact, I'm lousy at it.

Can you give an example of deciding the importance or worth of a concept? Do you mean that for someone who is Fi dominant they would say, "It just feels right," while Ti would say, "Logically, it makes sense" ?
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Old 23rd-May-2009, 12:40 AM   sagewolf's time 22nd-May-2009, 07:40 PM    #40
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On empathy: yes. I, for one, have far greater empathy toward animals and even inanimate objects than I do toward other humans, even my family. (I say hi to any birds I see, and I arrange my stuffed dog and wolves on my bed carefully each morning so they'll be comfortable when I'm at school.) Interpersonal contact is something I'm not comfortable with and do not enjoy practising, but I find it easy to imagine how someone might feel in a certain situation, and so I find it difficult to outright hate people unless they've just pissed me off somehow. I rarely express my empathetic conclusions, but they're made. (My mother used to literally stand over me to make me write thank-you notes when I was younger. She's given up now...)

Fi-- Yes, I think that's what it's like, but it's an infuriatingly hard function to explain. Maybe Fukyo will explain. My Fi is more developed than most INTPs (my age) but I still don't quite get it intellectually.
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Old 23rd-May-2009, 04:30 PM   Concojones's time 23rd-May-2009, 05:30 PM    #41
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Does the empathy you refer to also include empathy toward animals and potentially inanimate objects? Because this is what confuses me. I have ridiculously uncontrollable empathy in regard to certain beings, but I also am not the best about, say, writing thank you notes or calling someone back when they've called me. In fact, I'm lousy at it.
Same here.

@sagewolf: OK, then I was wrong about empathy being Fi (your explanation makes sense, just as Decaf's model). I must have misinterpreted my (unclear) source.
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Old 23rd-May-2009, 04:58 PM   Decaf's time 23rd-May-2009, 08:58 AM    #42
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Quote:
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On empathy: yes. I, for one, have far greater empathy toward animals and even inanimate objects than I do toward other humans, even my family. (I say hi to any birds I see, and I arrange my stuffed dog and wolves on my bed carefully each morning so they'll be comfortable when I'm at school.) Interpersonal contact is something I'm not comfortable with and do not enjoy practising, but I find it easy to imagine how someone might feel in a certain situation, and so I find it difficult to outright hate people unless they've just pissed me off somehow. I rarely express my empathetic conclusions, but they're made. (My mother used to literally stand over me to make me write thank-you notes when I was younger. She's given up now...)

Fi-- Yes, I think that's what it's like, but it's an infuriatingly hard function to explain. Maybe Fukyo will explain. My Fi is more developed than most INTPs (my age) but I still don't quite get it intellectually.
The difference between Fe and Fi is setting. Have you ever met an extraordinarily friendly person who becomes a complete flake the moment you're not in front of them or talking on the phone? That's Fe. It provides a strong sense of empathy to the possessor while the interaction is going on, but has no active role for any relationship that isn't effecting their immediate environment. The other roles have to fill in for it, and some haven't developed those roles very well.

That's why even INTPs find it easy to make promises in the hopes of mending a rift in a relationship, but then find it difficult to make good on that promise if it isn't something they find important to do for more personal reasons.

Fi, on the flip side, deals with the internal world that does not leave a person, and thus remains very consistent. That's not to say it helps with things like thank you cards, but its memory of relationships is much longer. But because its internal and not external, the idea of relationships have to be internalized to become important. INFPs may be very friendly and caring people, but its still hard for them to meet strangers.

The introverted feeling function is less socially responsive than its extraverted counterpart, which often means there is no chameleon-like behavior that INTPs and others experience (though most others experience it at a far more conscious level).

Is that a suitable explanation?

____________

Here's a rule of thumb, that I admit it difficult to follow at times. There are reasons why the four ordered functions are in the order they are for each type. If possible, I advise you to make the set you are given work to explain your behavior before adding in anomalous functions. That's not to say you can't develop functions uncommon to your type, but if its the first explanation for any deviant behavior, you're going to find it hard to claim any type as what you are.

That being said, I sometimes wonder whether type is as structured or relentless as I once believed. I still believe it to be the case, but there is room for doubt. If you DO believe it, then try to use it strictly or you won't be able to derive the benefits it offers.

Sometimes its more helpful to learn of a previously unknown motivation than to assign a behavior to something that makes good surface sense.
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Old 24th-May-2009, 04:44 AM   mathy's time 23rd-May-2009, 10:44 PM    #43
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Wow, thanks Decaf. That cleared some stuff up for me.

I'm pretty sure now I am a T.
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Old 24th-May-2009, 05:58 AM   echoplex's time 24th-May-2009, 12:58 AM    #44
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I think one possible reason there is so much INTP/INFP confusion may be because for many of us, our preference for introverted judgment is much stronger than our preference for either type of judgment. I do believe we all have a preference, it just may not be nearly as clear for us as our basic preference to introvert any and all judging.

So, it may be that for an INTP, Fi seems like a suitable option too, while Ti would seem suitable for an INFP. An INTP who is more certain of his preference for Ji may see both Ti and Fi as almost interchangable, with one only being slightly preferred over the other, which he may not even be (yet) aware of.

Also, using the MBTI model, perhaps it would help to think back to childhood and try to figure out which function(s) you developed first. If you just started really using Fi alot (like me), then you're probably an INTP who's just exploring. (or vice versa for INFP)
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Old 24th-May-2009, 05:26 PM   brain enclosed in flesh's time 24th-May-2009, 10:26 AM    #45
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Quote:
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That's why even INTPs find it easy to make promises in the hopes of mending a rift in a relationship, but then find it difficult to make good on that promise if it isn't something they find important to do for more personal reasons.
What sort of more personal reasons? I mean, I know I do this a lot, even with people I care about tremendously- I have every intention of calling that person back on the day that I agreed to call them back, but then life happens, I completely forget until it pops into my head the day after, but I still don't do it for some other reason and then I feel bad because I am such an irresponsible friend and I'm concerned it will lead to an uncomfortable scene and this can quite potentially be the end of the friendship.

There have been a couple people in my life, however, where it's the opposite. I am hyper-vigilant with them. It could be because I don't know where I stand in the relationship and I am searching for reassurance, I suppose. Would that be the sort of personal reason you mean?

Quote:
Fi, on the flip side, deals with the internal world that does not leave a person, and thus remains very consistent. That's not to say it helps with things like thank you cards, but its memory of relationships is much longer. But because its internal and not external, the idea of relationships have to be internalized to become important. INFPs may be very friendly and caring people, but its still hard for them to meet strangers.

The introverted feeling function is less socially responsive than its extraverted counterpart, which often means there is no chameleon-like behavior that INTPs and others experience (though most others experience it at a far more conscious level).
Does this mean an INFP won't go through the social niceties of a relationship unless they are truly committed to it? So say in the prior example, if an INFP agrees to call anyone, you'd better believe they'll call, no matter what? Or do you mean something entirely different?

Also, sending out Christmas cards and thank-you notes- is that possibly something carried out more by the Te function?

Oh, and Concojones- that different function attitudes definition of Fi threw me, too. If empathy for animals is a Fe function, then my Fe is definitely stronger than my Fi.
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Old 24th-May-2009, 06:34 PM   Decaf's time 24th-May-2009, 10:34 AM    #46
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What sort of more personal reasons? I mean, I know I do this a lot, even with people I care about tremendously- I have every intention of calling that person back on the day that I agreed to call them back, but then life happens, I completely forget until it pops into my head the day after, but I still don't do it for some other reason and then I feel bad because I am such an irresponsible friend and I'm concerned it will lead to an uncomfortable scene and this can quite potentially be the end of the friendship.

There have been a couple people in my life, however, where it's the opposite. I am hyper-vigilant with them. It could be because I don't know where I stand in the relationship and I am searching for reassurance, I suppose. Would that be the sort of personal reason you mean?
Yep, that sounds about right. I don't know if it comes from a search for reassurance as much as that the fluctuations of your interpretation keep the relationship in question interesting. Once a relationship becomes 'understood', the forgetting begins.

Quote:
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Does this mean an INFP won't go through the social niceties of a relationship unless they are truly committed to it? So say in the prior example, if an INFP agrees to call anyone, you'd better believe they'll call, no matter what? Or do you mean something entirely different?
I think INFPs, like INTPs have little respect for social niceties in general, and so I wouldn't go so far as to say they're more likely to pursue them. If they believe it necessary it still depends on what it is (if they're uncomfortable on the phone they might still avoid calling). The difference between the types lies in memory. The INFP is more likely to remember that they meant to do something than the INTP, who spaces it out completely unless something reminds them of it. After all, where does a single instance of a social convention fit on our universe spanning web of our understanding. We don't draw the connections to it that allow our mind to keep it on the back burner. We toss it behind the stove.

INTPs should ALWAYS carry a notepad and ALWAYS write down the things they intend to do while they remember.

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Also, sending out Christmas cards and thank-you notes- is that possibly something carried out more by the Te function?
Writing thank you cards is really not a difficult thing to do. I believe the ability to maintain a high responsiveness with those kinds of niceties is regulated by the sensing function, though I hesitate to assign it to either extraverted or introverted.

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Oh, and Concojones- that different function attitudes definition of Fi threw me, too. If empathy for animals is a Fe function, then my Fe is definitely stronger than my Fi.
Empathy with animals is a difficult one to analyze, mostly because it really isn't. Its anthropomorphization. We assign feelings we are used to. Whether that puts it firmly in either camp, I really don't know. I prefer to deal with falsifiable cases (where a person can point out how you were wrong about their motives).
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Old 25th-May-2009, 10:42 PM   brain enclosed in flesh's time 25th-May-2009, 03:42 PM    #47
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Thanks for the answers, Decaf. It definitely cleared some things up, although the distinctions between INFP and INTP still remain nebulous to me for some reason.

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Empathy with animals is a difficult one to analyze, mostly because it really isn't. Its anthropomorphization. We assign feelings we are used to.
Respectfully beg to differ:

empathy (according to Encarta) : 1. understanding of another's feelings. 2. attribution of feelings to an object- the transfer of your own feelings and emotions to an object.

I imagine you could categorize empathetic feelings for non-human animate beings under the second definition as well. And I was just trying to determine if that's considered Fi or Fe.
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Old 25th-May-2009, 11:13 PM   Ogion's time 26th-May-2009, 12:14 AM    #48
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I observed that when i 'empathize' with someone/thing then it is not actually feeling their feelings, but more a "How would i feel in his/her/its place?".

Sorry, short post :P

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Old 25th-May-2009, 11:17 PM   brain enclosed in flesh's time 25th-May-2009, 04:17 PM    #49
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Well put. I call it, "method living"- like method acting. I do the same thing when I write fiction.
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Old 26th-May-2009, 01:59 AM   Decaf's time 25th-May-2009, 05:59 PM    #50
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Respectfully beg to differ
Quite right. And now that I think about it again I have to agree with you, though I still hesitate to apply it to a function.
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