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Old 10th-April-2009, 07:58 PM   Da Blob's time 10th-April-2009, 01:59 PM    #1
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Default What's wrong with your life? Perhaps ADD

It seems rather odd, but there seems to be at least a slight co-relation between the typical INTPian and Adults suffering from ADHD. There was a time when the conventional wisdom was that ADHD was a disease of Childhood and disappeared with the onset of puberty. However, it turns out that it was just the physical manifestation of the disorder that disappeared, the neurological malfunctions still were causing problems. So it is just rather 'recently' that ADD has been on the table as a cause for difficulties in Adult life.

So how many of these symptoms below are ADD-related or are personality related?

Procrastination
Indecision, difficulty recalling and organizing details required for a task
Poor time management, losing track of time
Avoiding tasks or jobs that require sustained attention
Difficulty initiating tasks
Difficulty completing and following through on tasks
Difficulty multitasking
Difficulty shifting attention from one task to another


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adult_a...ficit_disorder
(external links are most useful)
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Old 10th-April-2009, 09:03 PM   FacetiousPersona's time 10th-April-2009, 09:03 PM    #2
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Default Re: What's wrong with your life? Perhaps ADD

I was diagnosed with ADHD!!!!!!!!!!1111 Anyway, a majority of the people I've met who were ADHD had the MBTI types ENFP, ENTP, ESTP and ESFP. You need to differentiate between ADD (no active hyperactivity) and ADHD, because the people without the hyperactivity will have a higher probability of being introverted, I think.
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Old 11th-April-2009, 12:04 AM   del's time 10th-April-2009, 04:04 PM    #3
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Default Re: What's wrong with your life? Perhaps ADD

I'm personally skeptical that it's actually a "disorder."

Last edited by del; 11th-April-2009 at 11:03 PM. Reason: speeling
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Old 11th-April-2009, 02:07 AM   ViS's time 11th-April-2009, 02:07 AM    #4
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Default Re: What's wrong with your life? Perhaps ADD

INTP = Aspergers
ESTJ = Dispraxia
ISTP = Dyslexia
ESFP = ADHD
ISTJ = Boring Disease

Modern society needs to learn to differentiate between personality traits and disorders.
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Old 11th-April-2009, 02:23 AM   RobertJ's time 10th-April-2009, 09:23 PM    #5
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Default Re: What's wrong with your life? Perhaps ADD

Quote:
Originally Posted by del View Post
I'm personally sceptical that it's actually a "disorder."
Same here.
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Old 11th-April-2009, 02:38 AM   echoplex's time 10th-April-2009, 09:38 PM    #6
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Default Re: What's wrong with your life? Perhaps ADD

Quote:
Procrastination
Check, unless I'm really motivated
Indecision, difficulty recalling and organizing details required for a task
No, I think I'm okay on this one
Poor time management, losing track of time
Check!
Avoiding tasks or jobs that require sustained attention
No, I like giving sustained attention unless the task is boring
Difficulty initiating tasks
Definitely check
Difficulty completing and following through on tasks
Depends on boredom level
Difficulty multitasking
No, I multitask surprisingly well for a guy
Difficulty shifting attention from one task to another
I don't have this problem at all
I think that ultimately, whether or not this is a disorder depends on how negatively it's affecting your life and how much control you have over it. Someone who can deal with these symptoms through self-discipline probably doesn't have a disorder so much as bad habits. However, I do think that some people cannot reliably control these symptoms enough to keep them from negatively impacting their life. Of course, even some of those people could probably benefit from shaping their life around their mind rather than vice versa.

(ViS, I think I have been accused of having the boring disease before! They were wrong, dammit!) Wait, does that mean I'm an aspie? :(
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Old 11th-April-2009, 02:54 AM   zephryi's time 10th-April-2009, 09:54 PM    #7
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Default Re: What's wrong with your life? Perhaps ADD

Lol... my first grade teacher was convinced I was ADD and had me talk to the school psychologist. It was actually a good thing because they assigned me a "mentor" to basically entertain me and make me feel "special" so I wouldn't bug anyone. Oh, and I could chew gum in class too. XD

But whether it's a disorder or not... I agree with echoplex, who said things quite nicely. In fact, in a few books I was reading about autism (Sorry, I can't remember any titles; it's been awhile), many of them brought up the fact that the "autism epidemic" may be to changes in diagnostic standards rather than any actual increase in the disorder itself.

And also, disorder labels are not meant to label everything about a person that is out of the ordinary; it's supposed to identify those who need help to live life "fully" (but what that is is also questionable, but I digress). The habit of slapping labels on every human "defect" seems to me like another way of excusing those who can't overcome their bad habits (I mean those who have the potential to, rather than those who truly need help) and helping them to feel better by way of supplying a crutch.
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Old 11th-April-2009, 03:05 AM   Red Mage's time 10th-April-2009, 10:05 PM    #8
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Default Re: What's wrong with your life? Perhaps ADD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Da Blob View Post
Procrastination
Indecision, difficulty recalling and organizing details required for a task
Poor time management, losing track of time
Avoiding tasks or jobs that require sustained attention
Difficulty initiating tasks
Difficulty completing and following through on tasks
Difficulty multitasking
Difficulty shifting attention from one task to another
Those all sound very much like me. I don't know if they're ADD or personality type. I'm still not sure of my personality type, though.
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Old 11th-April-2009, 05:08 AM   Da Blob's time 10th-April-2009, 11:08 PM    #9
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Default Re: What's wrong with your life? Perhaps ADD

Quote:
Originally Posted by del View Post
I'm personally sceptical that it's actually a "disorder."
Ditto! in fact many with ADD or ADHD are incredibly talented and gifted people, which makes them quite different from the vast majority of people with little talent and few gifts. Being different still carries a negative connotation, perhaps a prejudice with biological origins. Of course, if you are different , there is something terribly wrong with you and you need to see a Doctor to 'correct' the 'problem' etc. etc. ad nausium...

End of Rant

there are some interesting sites on the web that allows ADHD and ADD people to network with each other...
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Old 11th-April-2009, 05:12 AM   Red Mage's time 11th-April-2009, 12:12 AM    #10
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Default Re: What's wrong with your life? Perhaps ADD

Well it's certainly not a good thing...
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Old 11th-April-2009, 05:34 AM   Da Blob's time 10th-April-2009, 11:34 PM    #11
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Default Re: What's wrong with your life? Perhaps ADD

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Originally Posted by Mac OS X Ocelot View Post
Well it's certainly not a good thing...
It certainly not a 'good' thing for accomplishing certain tasks in certain environments, such as An environment of a boring classroom run by a teacher with a brain the size of a walnut...
However, it can be a wonderful thing for accomplishing unique things in an understanding environment, with proper medication only if necessary...
People with ADHD often have problems with low self esteem. It is often this low self-esteem that causes so much of the anti-social and self-destructive behavior that characterizes ADHD problems in life, not the condition itself.
My younger brother is or was a genius - but he also had ADHD. There was no place in the school system for him - but they blamed him and not the system. They labeled him as a troublemaker and eventually he became one. He caused a great deal of trouble... He could have been labeled a gifted artist, instead and he would have caused a great deal of art, instead...
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Old 11th-April-2009, 01:23 PM   FacetiousPersona's time 11th-April-2009, 01:23 PM    #12
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Default Re: What's wrong with your life? Perhaps ADD

Da Blob thinks he has ADHD, hence his excessive flattery towards people who 'have' it. He is essentially complimenting himself subtly.
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Old 11th-April-2009, 01:26 PM   Red Mage's time 11th-April-2009, 08:26 AM    #13
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Default Re: What's wrong with your life? Perhaps ADD

I don't doubt people who have it can do great things. It's not like life-threatening or anything, but I don't see how it can help in any way. I don't see any positive side-effects. It seems pretty much all negative. It's something to overcome and not foster.
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Old 11th-April-2009, 02:59 PM   Carnap's time 11th-April-2009, 03:59 PM    #14
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Default Re: What's wrong with your life? Perhaps ADD

Yeah, I have all that, but I don't think it is a disorder that needs meds, god forbid ! Keep my brain chemistry intact, thank you very much.

I can't wait to take medical ethics, there's a whole section on psychology and pharmaceutics.


You know, psychology has always had a hard time being taken seriously by the other sciences.... not surprised.
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Old 11th-April-2009, 07:08 PM   Da Blob's time 11th-April-2009, 01:08 PM    #15
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Default Re: What's wrong with your life? Perhaps ADD

Quote:
Originally Posted by FacetiousPersona View Post
Da Blob thinks he has ADHD, hence his excessive flattery towards people who 'have' it. He is essentially complimenting himself subtly.
Nope... I flunked the Harvard test for ADD (self-report scale),
first thumbnail below
(scoring instructions attached, see second thumbnail )

http://intpforum.com/attachment.php?...1&d=1239472715
Attached Thumbnails
Adult-ADHD-260.jpg   Adult-ADHD-160.jpg  
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Old 11th-April-2009, 10:05 PM   del's time 11th-April-2009, 02:05 PM    #16
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Default Re: What's wrong with your life? Perhaps ADD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac OS X Ocelot View Post
I don't doubt people who have it can do great things. It's not like life-threatening or anything, but I don't see how it can help in any way. I don't see any positive side-effects. It seems pretty much all negative. It's something to overcome and not foster.
ADHD has negative consequences in our society, sure. We're highly time-oriented, scheduled, have a strict division of labor where people are expected to focus on one task at a time, and so on. But between 90% and 95% of human history we lived in small tribal societies that had little to none of these features.

If you take people out of the context of our culture, the negative attributes of ADHD/ADD largely disappear, and there are even many advantages to it.

It's not a real disorder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture-bound_syndrome
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Old 11th-April-2009, 10:36 PM   RobertJ's time 11th-April-2009, 05:36 PM    #17
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Default Re: What's wrong with your life? Perhaps ADD

I'm going to come out and say that ADD is overall a positive thing for society... of course, those with ADD will forever be the bane of those who want to structure and control and funnel human will through a very narrow sieve of social ideals.
This is why society and it's institutions are so zealous about medicating and "fixing" those who have this personality trait. Those individuals who have ADD are seen as malfunctions withing a perfectly operating system of cogs and cranks. What it comes to to is this: those who aren't doing what they're "supposed" to be doing according to social mandate are problematic.
I feel the opposite - I don't see why the current status quo is so desirable and sacred. I say that we need these individuals to antagonize our complacent way of life. Personally, I feel depressed about the thought of all these unique and interesting individuals being drugged up and becoming part of the acquiescent zombie parade.
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Old 11th-April-2009, 10:59 PM   Gorgrim's time 12th-April-2009, 12:00 AM    #18
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Default Re: What's wrong with your life? Perhaps ADD

yeah i agree quite alot with your post. Difference from what people consider normal is what creates new perspectives and it static societies would be boring. also. ADD is not an all destroying 'disorder' at all, and the people with it are valuable more so than the people that are are so frightingly normal.



ADHD


I have wondered if I have ADHD blob, when I read about it, it fits me quite well....

you see, many of the symptons in your thumbnail is often, or very often. Many of the ADHD problems stem from these unvoluntarily tasks, oftenly presented in school. atleast for me, the cirriculum nicely fits the normal people, those who are not big on self-learning, or self-indulgence in anything that is not social, in any socially acceptable way...but for me, it raises alot of thoughts, and I see many problems with it aswell.

It seems like one of those disorders that have alot of effects, and little causes. But the causes fit me well enough to say I have a kind of ADHD affliction--


Schools


I am in school, but it is not particularly easy. I would say school has never figured out what to do with me, and doesn't intend to either. I however still study, waiting for something better after I'm done. So the ADHD tendencies hasn't been strong enough for me to give up. I know a couple who really did seemingly have big issues with those tendencies, and couldn't take the school - quitting this very year. One of which I knew took medication. i've never been asked to take medication or wanted to myself, but i've always found school really appauling, ever since I was 8 years old.

Schools are completely focused on creating an enviroment, that is totally backwards from an ADHD's point of view... ive always been happy teachers gave me enough room to be abit different, but on the cost that I was not able to really be involved. Ever since I was little, around 6 years old, I learned the arabian numbers - and calculated big numbers soon after. When I was 7 I was into astronomy a little bit, and i learned how to use millions, and billions, as numbers. I could calculate them with abit of logic, - atleast people in my 1st grade thought I was kinda gifted----

They proceedingly they always wanted my help with calculating and I withdrew. I didn't feel like there was room for me to unfold since then. Had to be burdened by everybody else because I knew how things worked. and well..since then I kind of stopped caring about school. Intill now - finally feeling abit of free-room for free-will, so to speak.
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Old 12th-April-2009, 12:00 AM   Gorgrim's time 12th-April-2009, 01:00 AM    #19
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Default Re: What's wrong with your life? Perhaps ADD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Da Blob View Post
It seems rather odd, but there seems to be at least a slight co-relation between the typical INTPian and Adults suffering from ADHD. There was a time when the conventional wisdom was that ADHD was a disease of Childhood and disappeared with the onset of puberty. However, it turns out that it was just the physical manifestation of the disorder that disappeared, the neurological malfunctions still were causing problems. So it is just rather 'recently' that ADD has been on the table as a cause for difficulties in Adult life.

So how many of these symptoms below are ADD-related or are personality related?

Procrastination
Indecision, difficulty recalling and organizing details required for a task
Poor time management, losing track of time
Avoiding tasks or jobs that require sustained attention
Difficulty initiating tasks
Difficulty completing and following through on tasks
Difficulty multitasking
Difficulty shifting attention from one task to another

All of those are easily things that concern me..... I'd just like to add, after noticing you actually made the thread... Only saw ur post on 2nd page, lol.

eh, noticing that I myself have had very big problems in the past couple years, aswell as my school, namely because of the inability to cope with my need for high stimulation. The reason I'm in school now is quite simply that ive dealt with it more effectively. There is still some problems, though. I find that when I have holidays, i become much more stimulated from the knowledge and ideas I gather from the internet, books etc.

Being an introvert myself may explain for my problems with interpersonal relationships, as my need for stimulation is not met often with my interpersonal relationships, they are rather dull often. My main stimulation is me thinking, alone, first.

Now add in ADHD, the need for stimulation, and you quickly notice i'm an introvert with perhaps a need for stimulation higher than other introverts. And you get an even less 'social' inter-personal person, that uses more time thinking in order to stay stimulated.

Now, imagine all that thinking. Then the schoolsystem, suited for thoughtless people, that in general do not have ADHD, and are stimulated at a much higher level. The extroverts perhaps needing more stimulation aswell as I, compared to 'normal' introverts, but focusing on external affaires, creating ADDED socialization. While in my case, lowers my socialization, and boosts my introvert.

To me it seems the two ends of the 'spectrum of stimulation' and the 'need for extroversion or introversion' plays the roles here.

on my side, i need more stimulation and therefore get it through introverted means. i'm INTP after all.

On the other, a 'normal' extrovert is also a "troublemaker" but is more accepted, as a common low stimulated person, requiring alot of external stimuli.

then, we have those normal introverts, that are perhaps, to a higher degree, are in a higher stimulated state, requiring less introversive thinking.


It is based on that theory, which creates 4 types of people, namely
'low-sti-introvert' 'normal'

'high-sti-introvert' 'adhd'

'low-sti-extrovert' 'normal'

And the high-stimulated extrovert. The only one that I didn't mention earlier. Perhaps regarded as a rather lazy Extrovert.

I believe there is probably extroverts in this end of the stimulus spectrum, who find themselves pretty stimulated compared to their fellow extroverts. They become less social than others, because they are not inclined to look for stimulation as much. Their stimulation, coming from an external source often, means that they don't seek as much extroverted behavior as others.


Anyway it might be wrong to say that a person inclined already to be highly stimulated is stupider or less evolved - but why should be become evolved if he feels no need to? I am not sure.


Edit: you've already kind-of said what I was trying to say in the post before hand. Something I kind of missed, while typing away madly... sorry if i came off as copying or as stating something that was already said ... etc. either way, it was a process for me in itself
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Old 12th-April-2009, 12:44 AM   Da Blob's time 11th-April-2009, 06:44 PM    #20
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Default Re: What's wrong with your life? Perhaps ADD

The fact that you have actually thought about this issue places you in a rather unique category. Instead of ignoring it, or simply looking it up on the net to fulfill a mild curiosity, you found something in the topic that you found "stimulating". You postulated your own ideas and guess what - you have created your own POV on the matter and not just assumed that of another, a so-called expert or whoever...
Some few seek stimulation and the resulting change that honest introversion can bring about, most people seem to avoid it like a plague and unfortunately the school system, as well as aspects of the greater society are set up to cater to these intellectually 'lazy' people, who form a vast majority in the population. People who seemingly are quite satisfied for propaganda in one form or another to answer the important questions of life... One could almost pity such, if one was not forced to deal with their low 'standards' as well as one's own standards...

There are several theories can could explain this range for seeking stimulation. I think that that John Bowlby's Attachment Theory might be the most relevant. We all need a secure 'home-base-of-operation", before we can feel comfortable in setting out on expeditions to 'explore' the environment seeking new, novel experiences and 'stimulation'. Without such security in one's personal or social identity seeking 'stimulation' seems to be a risky, a frightening quest with stimulation being seen as a threat and not an opportunity. It is amazing how many more people are actually more comfortable in a social environment where they are told how to think and what actions to take, instead of expanding their personal power and base of knowledge by individual explorations into the 'Great Unknown"
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Old 12th-April-2009, 12:54 AM   zephryi's time 11th-April-2009, 07:54 PM    #21
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Default Re: What's wrong with your life? Perhaps ADD

Quote:
Originally Posted by del View Post
ADHD has negative consequences in our society, sure. We're highly time-oriented, scheduled, have a strict division of labor where people are expected to focus on one task at a time, and so on. But between 90% and 95% of human history we lived in small tribal societies that had little to none of these features.

If you take people out of the context of our culture, the negative attributes of ADHD/ADD largely disappear, and there are even many advantages to it.

It's not a real disorder.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture-bound_syndrome
Just a nitpick- culture bound syndrome applies to some thing that is "only within a specific society or culture," but ADD/ADHD is found in other places with a rather different culture (See Asia: http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00471354 See Europe: http://www.pavilion.co.uk/add/welcome.html). Even if we question how the diagnosis is made, the idea is prevalent else where, so it's not just us quick, quick scrambling, time oriented Americans, and it's not "unreal" by the definition of culture bound syndromes.

Also, there are identified possible biological indicators (from add.org): "ADHD IS very likely caused by biological factors which influence neurotransmitter activity in certain parts of the brain, and which have a strong genetic basis." The fact sheet goes on to say that there is lower glucose consumption in impulse controlled areas of ADD/ADHD brains, as well as a genetic component. [http://www.add.org/articles/factsheet.html]

However, even if you do take people considered ADD/ADHD out of our culture, I don't think the negative attributes will disappear. If people manage to work through it, then it won't be an issue, obviously, plus they won't have the social stigma of the label, or the ideas of how someone with the disorder should act.

But, whether now or in a different culture, differences are an issue for society, and always will be. That is why social pecking orders are established as early as intermediate school, why smart people, those who have wildly different ideas and interests, those with any sort of disorder, and simply those who act "funny" are ostracized- humans rely on the current system and ideas of right and wrong and normal to keep them safe, conditions stable. Differences, on the other hand, represent change. Those who are disordered (intelligent or not, due to perception of the person), and those under the average intelligence seem to be "slow," "retards," or other pejoratives- they will upset order by pulling society down. Those who are "too intelligent," they don't understand. The above average people or those with different ideas pull out things that threaten to change or at least challenge the very beliefs of society and stir up everything that currently keeps society in check, and therefore they're dangerous too unless filtered into a "safe" place where their ideas can be dispersed without a tremendous reaction. (Of course, society does need to be shaken up from time to time- there's no doubt about that. But this is the way things are as I see them, at least, like it or not.)

So, even without this culture, even without a definition of the disorder, if the person shows deviations from the norm, he or she is likely to not be as accepted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertJ View Post
I'm going to come out and say that ADD is overall a positive thing for society... [...]
I feel the opposite - I don't see why the current status quo is so desirable and sacred. I say that we need these individuals to antagonize our complacent way of life. Personally, I feel depressed about the thought of all these unique and interesting individuals being drugged up and becoming part of the acquiescent zombie parade.
The status quo is not always right, nor desired- "Stick to the Status Quo" from HSM1, jah? >___<. But that doesn't automatically mean that a disorder that creates differences is automatically a good thing. The symptoms of the disorder:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Da Blob View Post
Procrastination
Indecision, difficulty recalling and organizing details required for a task
Poor time management, losing track of time
Avoiding tasks or jobs that require sustained attention
Difficulty initiating tasks
Difficulty completing and following through on tasks
Difficulty multitasking
Difficulty shifting attention from one task to another
...are going to be an issue even in a different sort of environment. If if the environment is more laid back, not being able to focus well, not often finishing projects, often not starting the tasks, is going to be a problem in any more developed society that requires, well, things to be done. To sustain the systems of simply feeding a large population in which most people cannot spare the time to grow their own food, it is necessary to have people who can follow through. If someone wants to accomplish something and further goals, they need to follow through. Of course, this isn't an issue if the person diagnosed is happy with who they are and where they are, but this describes very few people.

Now, this isn't to say that people diagnosed are not gifted in other ways- they may be intelligent, or artistic like Da Blob's brother, or whatever else. The disorder doesn't affect these areas, and if they get past these obstacles, then they can achieve as much as anyone.

To me, the biggest issue seems to be the medication because it does affect behavior, mainly when parents try to "help" their child through medicating them without making sure the child understands why, or when they're older, giving them a choice to live medicated or not. If the person decides to be a "medicated zombie" to better fit into the status quo, then that's their decision. If the person decides to grapple with their problems without the altercations of medicine, then that's their decision. Ultimately, I think it comes down to the individual in how they decide to face the situation; how the disorder is perceived within society will influence the decision undoubtedly, but the individual must decide how they think about their place in society, how their disorder affects them, and how the pros and cons of taking medication or not stack up.
--

long post is long... hope it makes sense @____@

Last edited by zephryi; 12th-April-2009 at 12:56 AM. Reason: unclear statement fixing
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Old 12th-April-2009, 01:49 AM   chocolate's time 11th-April-2009, 06:49 PM    #22
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Default Re: What's wrong with your life? Perhaps ADD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Da Blob View Post
So how many of these symptoms below are ADD-related or are personality related?

Procrastination
Indecision, difficulty recalling and organizing details required for a task
Poor time management, losing track of time
Avoiding tasks or jobs that require sustained attention
Difficulty initiating tasks
Difficulty completing and following through on tasks
Difficulty multitasking
Difficulty shifting attention from one task to another
My opinion:

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Old 12th-April-2009, 04:46 AM   del's time 11th-April-2009, 08:46 PM    #23
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Default Re: What's wrong with your life? Perhaps ADD

Quote:
Originally Posted by zephryi View Post
Just a nitpick- culture bound syndrome applies to some thing that is "only within a specific society or culture," but ADD/ADHD is found in other places with a rather different culture (See Asia: http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00471354 See Europe: http://www.pavilion.co.uk/add/welcome.html). Even if we question how the diagnosis is made, the idea is prevalent else where, so it's not just us quick, quick scrambling, time oriented Americans, and it's not "unreal" by the definition of culture bound syndromes.
I know that there is likely biological basis to AD/HD and it's not technically a CBS. I posted that to get people thinking. It is likely in part a natural biological variation of human beings, but I would argue that its status as a "disorder" is culturally bound.

Quote:
However, even if you do take people considered ADD/ADHD out of our culture, I don't think the negative attributes will disappear.
Strictly speaking, I think some would disappear and others would be created because the different social customs might demand different behaviors.

But the same goes for introversion as well, and there's evidence that that's hereditary and has a biological basis. In fact, I'd argue that in some cultures, Introversion would be an even bigger impairment than ADD would be -- for example, the Tiv view people who spend time alone as being sick or even as witches. A lot of the PeaceCorps volunteers who have worked with the Tiv came home saying that they literally would never be left alone: someone would always follow them home and walk in their house uninvited, because it was assumed company was always welcome, otherwise you were a witch or something.

Many people in our culture view introverts as disfunctional as well because our social customs demand a level of assertiveness to participate. So the negative consequences don't really disappear here, either; and on top of that there's some measurable and physical difference in brain reactivity to stimuli. But is introversion something one needs to be medicated and rehabilitated from?

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If people manage to work through it, then it won't be an issue, obviously, plus they won't have the social stigma of the label, or the ideas of how someone with the disorder should act.
The social stigma and the ideas are exactly what I'm saying are what makes it a "disorder."

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But, whether now or in a different culture, differences are an issue for society, and always will be. That is why social pecking orders are established as early as intermediate school, why smart people, those who have wildly different ideas and interests, those with any sort of disorder, and simply those who act "funny" are ostracized- humans rely on the current system and ideas of right and wrong and normal to keep them safe, conditions stable. Differences, on the other hand, represent change. Those who are disordered (intelligent or not, due to perception of the person), and those under the average intelligence seem to be "slow," "retards," or other pejoratives- they will upset order by pulling society down. Those who are "too intelligent," they don't understand. The above average people or those with different ideas pull out things that threaten to change or at least challenge the very beliefs of society and stir up everything that currently keeps society in check, and therefore they're dangerous too unless filtered into a "safe" place where their ideas can be dispersed without a tremendous reaction. (Of course, society does need to be shaken up from time to time- there's no doubt about that. But this is the way things are as I see them, at least, like it or not.)

So, even without this culture, even without a definition of the disorder, if the person shows deviations from the norm, he or she is likely to not be as accepted.
There are plenty of variations from the norm that are revered in one culture and considered pathological in another. One example being hermaphroditism and transgendered people.

Saying that they are "likely to not be as accepted" is meaningless. Maybe they're accepted, maybe they aren't -- that's not the metric used to determine a legitimate disorder. Whether or not it is more likely isn't relevant.

So some people are hyperactive douchebags. Some are day dreamers. Some lose their keys all the time. Some are hard to follow and always bounce between ideas.

Maybe you can find minor variations in neurochemistry that correlate to the psychological difference, and maybe some of these people find it hard to participate in social customs because they're hyperactively being a douchebag or because they're day dreaming or because they lost their keys or because...

But does that mean they have a legitimate disorder?

I'm not saying that there aren't a few, rare individuals who have horrible physiological problems in their neurology that demonstrably make them unable to focus, and to a debilitating degree.

But 20% of first grade boys taking ritalin for an attention disorder (that longitudinal studies suggest they'll grow out of anyway)?

Seriously?

I think The Onion hits the nail on the head:
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Old 12th-April-2009, 08:23 AM   QSR's time 12th-April-2009, 01:24 AM    #24
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How the fuck could someone with ADD actually read the long-ass posts in this thread? Anyway I'm not ADD, I just have a very active mind. I like to context switch a lot.
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Old 12th-April-2009, 06:18 PM   Ghost1986's time 13th-April-2009, 12:18 AM    #25
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Default Re: What's wrong with your life? Perhaps ADD

i have a shit load of problems in my life but i dont think ADHD is one of them.
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Old 12th-April-2009, 06:32 PM   Red Mage's time 12th-April-2009, 01:32 PM    #26
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How the fuck could someone with ADD actually read the long-ass posts in this thread?
Most of the time I don't. Okay, all of the time. I miss out on a lot.

So as a public service, can we all agree to sum up our posts in a succinct three sentences? At least three sentences per paragraph. Bulky paragraphs are painful to look at.
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Old 12th-April-2009, 09:54 PM   Da Blob's time 12th-April-2009, 03:54 PM    #27
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i have a shit load of problems in my life but i dont think ADHD is one of them.
So take the test i posted, remove any doubt. Make progress by a process of elimination if nothing else...
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Old 13th-April-2009, 02:07 AM   zephryi's time 12th-April-2009, 09:07 PM    #28
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I know that there is likely biological basis to AD/HD and it's not technically a CBS. I posted that to get people thinking. It is likely in part a natural biological variation of human beings, but I would argue that its status as a "disorder" is culturally bound.
*nods* That's what I figured, but I had to point that out. However, I can see what you're saying about it being considered an issue due to culture, I'd just say that it's more of cultures in the "developed" world.

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But the same goes for introversion as well, and there's evidence that that's hereditary and has a biological basis. [...]

Many people in our culture view introverts as disfunctional as well because our social customs demand a level of assertiveness to participate. So the negative consequences don't really disappear here, either; and on top of that there's some measurable and physical difference in brain reactivity to stimuli. But is introversion something one needs to be medicated and rehabilitated from?
To be honest, I never thought about it from that angle; I simply defined "disorder" as something that has a biological basis for the "disfunction" and negatively impacted one's life. Of course I wouldn't include introversion as a disorder, even though it can fulfill the above statements. It is a bit different though; the symptoms of AD/HD are *within this society at least* viewed very negatively, while introvertedness, if someone is educated about it, can be seen as a very positive thing. I also want to say that while both are a minority, the percentage of introverts is probably higher than those with AD/HD, but I have no good stats on either, so I'll leave it at that. But I get what you're saying- that the views of society may make a... trait, I guess, a negative thing for an individual, even though it may not naturally be negative and needing to be "fixed."

And I guess that's the major issue, how does society deal with irregularities, and is it right to try and keep status quo to keep things running smooth, or to try and deal directly with an individual's welfare and find a place where their idiosyncrasies (for a better term if you don't consider it a disorder) are a positive, or even deconstruct society and the rigidness itself to create the room needed for differences?

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There are plenty of variations from the norm that are revered in one culture and considered pathological in another.
I think a major issue I run into when discussing AD/HD, is that I can't particularly see the positives of the symptoms, whether in the developed world, or in a completely different culture, and so I'm inclined to think of it as more of a disorder, something that it would be helpful to "fix" if it really effs with your life. However, I also don't know anyone with AD/HD personally, so maybe this is just my ignorance speaking- anyone care to enlighten me?

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The social stigma and the ideas are exactly what I'm saying are what makes it a "disorder."
[...]
Saying that they are "likely to not be as accepted" is meaningless. Maybe they're accepted, maybe they aren't -- that's not the metric used to determine a legitimate disorder. Whether or not it is more likely isn't relevant.
These statements seem to conflict. I think what you're saying is while the negative ideas and reactions to the behavior is what causes it to be labeled a disorder, it's not strictly based on whether a person is "accepted"?

I agree with the first bit- society is the one that determines what we set out to "fix," after all, and that determines what is called a disorder. However, referring to the second part, the quote and response, what I think I meant, was more: If someone with different traits such as AD/HD are taken out of this society-> there will most likely be negative reactions still to the trait because it is different-> and therefore it still an issue even without the label. These two ideas are really in conflict, and I think that's kinda what I'm seeing above. What I was trying to get at, though, is that although society does affix the labels and the stigma and decides that traits are negative, you cannot say that problems are solely due to society; one would have to overcome any obstacles that exist within the context of whatever society due to the trait. I think the main difference is that without the label, without the negativity and quick fix, one doesn't have to view it as something negative and can see it more easily as a part of themselves that they live with rather than something to simply chop off with a pill.

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But 20% of first grade boys taking ritalin for an attention disorder (that longitudinal studies suggest they'll grow out of anyway)?
However you see AD/HD, disorder to be fixed, or simply a set of traits/tendencies, this is silly. I think this is mostly to parents jumping the gun on abnormalities because they happen to know about AD/HD and think that simply because their child seems to fit the symptoms they need to be medicated so it doesn't affect their life. -____- It's one thing if the child is distracted or has issues with task management when they're younger- that's what growing up and maturing is for- and a completely different thing if it's an older person who has extreme issues with the same thing.

Eh...I think I have contradicting statements internally and with my old post; sorry if so. I wasn't sure what I thought on the matter, really; I was just interested by the topic. ^^;;

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I think The Onion hits the nail on the head:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd4tugPM83c
That was pretty amazing; thanks for the link.
--

Summary:
1. Society can make people view traits as a negative thing!
2. Without label, things seem a part of one's self rather than an issue.
3. DO NOT MEDICATE YOUR KIDS FOR AD/HD WITHOUT A VERY GOOD REASON~~~~! Please and thank you. : D

...happy?

Last edited by zephryi; 13th-April-2009 at 02:09 AM. Reason: Please do medicate your kids if they have pneumonia :D
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Old 13th-April-2009, 04:37 PM   Ghost1986's time 13th-April-2009, 10:37 PM    #29
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So take the test i posted, remove any doubt. Make progress by a process of elimination if nothing else...

why take a test for something i dont really think exists. or at least not to the extent they say it does. pretty soon they are going to say that being happy is a disease.
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Old 13th-April-2009, 06:28 PM   Da Blob's time 13th-April-2009, 12:28 PM    #30
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why take a test for something i dont really think exists. or at least not to the extent they say it does. pretty soon they are going to say that being happy is a disease.
Sorry, my mistake. I read a degree of doubt in your statement that doesn't exist.
You said 'I don't think' I have ADD instead of "I Know" I do not have ADD.

words lead to as many misunderstandings as understandings, or so it seems occasionally.
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Old 15th-April-2009, 01:45 AM   Chronomar's time 15th-April-2009, 01:45 AM    #31
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I have ADD/ADHD. Not severely, but enough to scare my incompetent first grade teacher. She told my parents I was not good at math. Evil. I just hated her word problems. They were all addition and subtraction and were boring.
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Old 24th-April-2009, 10:09 PM   brain enclosed in flesh's time 24th-April-2009, 03:09 PM    #32
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I could have read all of these, but I don't have the attention for it! BUB-BA-Duh-DUMP!

Get it? Get it?

But no, seriously folks, I was diagnosed with ADD, inattentive type, late last year. They put me on Adderall. Initially, I have to say, it was kind of awesome. I felt so... chill. Not only that, I reorganized my house, I was doing better at things like sudoku puzzles, I made fabulous dinners every night...

But I didn't write. At all. Not one bit. Or play my guitar, for that matter. Felt no desire to express myself creatively or think deeply about anything. And if anything, I was even more introverted, if that's possible. Also way more hyperfocused, which I do naturally- my biggest problem is not shifting from one thing to another. If I'm interested in what I'm reading, people could be demolishing my house around me for eight hours straight and I would barely notice.

And then the amount which used to work so well doesn't work so well anymore. And you start to feel even more spacey than you ever did before. And your memory starts to suck more, too. And you never really sleep. Twilight sleep, I would call it.

I do not miss it at all. I'd say if you're worried you have ADD (or even if you aren't), just make sure you get enough sleep, take fish oil, try to eat well, and don't get drunk every night. Works far better than drugs.
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