INTP and Asperger's

[Integer]

Aren't there too many similarities between INTPs and aspies? Discuss.

[Fleur]

There are few similiarities, but it doesn`t mean that INTPs in reality are patients of Asperger`s syndrome. Most of the analogies can be find on other T and I types as well.

[Dissident]

There may be some similarities, but nothing significant, they have nothing to do with each other.
I knew a girl with Aspergers in another forum and you could easily notice that there was something odd. They have no empathy at all, you make a joke, they dont get it; you try to be friendly, they ignore you; they can be suddenly very harsh for no reason; etc. They have very narrowly focused interest which they are very constant with, not like INTPs, and they talk weirdly with no use of any kind of body language. Aspergers is not a matter of personality, its a neurological problem, a kind of lesser autism.

[Integer]

Hmm. There are still some aspies who do not appear to be what you have just described (e.g. not understanding jokes etc), so that sometimes the only difference between them and 'normal people' (or NTs, if you prefer) is they have social difficulties.


I think there is a fine line between INTPs and the aspies that I have just referred to. Or maybe them guys are just not aspies at all >_>

[Jesin]

By the way, NT means something totally different here than it does on Asperger forums. Here NT means intuitive thinker, but on Asperger forums, it means neurotypical.

[Dissident]

I checked it, since I only speak for what I picked up from that girl and some research I did back then. They do have problems with humor and such:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Individuals with AS appear to have particular weaknesses in areas of nonliteral language that include humor, irony, and teasing. They usually understand the cognitive basis of humor but may not enjoy it due to lack of understanding of its intent

[Integer]

Okay fair enough. I'm not an expert in AS anyway.
But it's curious to see that some famous people, like Einstein, are labelled as either aspie or INTP, but never both. Which makes me question, is there really any difference or are we just 'over-categorising' things? Bah, forget it. Thanks for everything anyway.

And Jesin, thanks for the info

[Agent Intellect]

i definitely see some similarities. i don't have a problem with recognizing or interpreting peoples emotions really, but i often have a problem with responding to them. that may just be me being socially retarded lol, but if someone is coming at me with all sorts of emotions, i don't really know how to react.

i do get very specific interests that come and go a lot, but not as specific as people with aspergers seem to get. i'll get interested in say, physics, but i don't get interested in just the structure of an atom or something. i do sometimes find that i have, as wiki called it "repetitive motor behaviors". i crack my joints (fingers, wrists, back and neck) constantly and i have this thing about having to have things be symmetrical and stuff.

[mmortal03]

Originally Posted by Agent Intellect

i definitely see some similarities. i don't have a problem with recognizing or interpreting peoples emotions really, but i often have a problem with responding to them. that may just be me being socially retarded lol, but if someone is coming at me with all sorts of emotions, i don't really know how to react.

i do get very specific interests that come and go a lot, but not as specific as people with aspergers seem to get. i'll get interested in say, physics, but i don't get interested in just the structure of an atom or something. i do sometimes find that i have, as wiki called it "repetitive motor behaviors". i crack my joints (fingers, wrists, back and neck) constantly and i have this thing about having to have things be symmetrical and stuff.

This is very similar to me, especially the last paragraph, which is spot on.

Regarding the first paragraph, I do choose to respond to peoples' emotions, but only when I feel like they are not so overly expressive. It is when there is such constant unnecessary emotion where I opt out. I don't feel like I need to exert myself much in response to most of the things people get so emotional about.

[Jordan~]

My gran saw something about Asperger's during the holidays and I had to prove to her that I didn't have it. One key point was the extremely focused interests - I have widely ranging interests that I tend to flit between. People with Asperger's also struggle with social subtleties, whereas I can read most people like open books (a person with Asperger's couldn't have noticed and thwarted her attempts at manipulation, was the example I gave).

[Decaf]

Welcome to the age of psychological hypochondria.

[Agent Intellect]

Originally Posted by Decaf

Welcome to the age of psychological hypochondria.

somebody trying to convince you you're sick is more like munchausen by proxy isn't it?

[Decaf]

Originally Posted by Agent Intellect

somebody trying to convince you you're sick is more like munchausen by proxy isn't it?

Well, I think munchausen is about getting attention. I think what's happening here is about making excuses. Parents want their kids to be amazing and then to figure out why they're not, or why their own lives are not what they were "supposed to be".

I think maybe psychological hypochondria by proxy would be better, but I'm sure there's got to be an official term for that.

___

Did you know?

• The DSM (handbook of psychological disorders) originally contained 86 pages. The fourth and latest rendition contains over 900 pages.

• If you are judged to not desire sex "enough" you can be diagnosed with hypoactive sexual desire syndrome.

• If a minor is diagnosed with a psychological disorder by a state employee and you do not seek medication the child can be taken from you by social services.

[Gorgrim]

holy moley.

[grey matters]

Decaf from what I understand a the state of Texas can force you to put your child on ADD drugs. This is very disturbing considering that the symptoms of ADD and the causes of these so called ADD symptoms are such a mixed bag. It's like when Sigmond Freud saw the mixed bag of psychological problems and created this elaborate theory to explain all of them. A theory that later turned out to be bullshit because of a false hypothesis that childhood sexual abuse didn't happen. The difference being that with psychoanalysis (Freus's "cure" for psychoneuroses) one chooses to be psychosnalyzerd and he or she only looses time and money, with ADD you are screwing with child development and that could be a big problem later on.

As for Einstein, I have seen him labeled as ADD, somewhat autistic, and an INTP. Everyone likes to bring him into their little theory. Although I kind of like the idea of him being an INTP, it sort of justifies my INTP behaviors. After all if the smartest guy in the world can be a certain way as a result of his personality then it's okay for me to do it also. Determinism can work to one's advantage, at least in argument (I wouldn't make a habit of this but it's great to get peole off your back and for aiding your denial.) *smiles reminiscintly*

[saorsa]

Originally Posted by grey matters

. After all if the smartest guy in the world can be a certain way as a result of his personality then it's okay for me to do it also.

so in your experience this argument actually convinces people? I really can't see how it would...


to be even minimally convincing, the view you're describing would need some way of connecting Einstein's personality to his achievements in physical theory. you would need to show, or at least plausibly suggest, that Einstein's putative INTP traits in fact caused him to make the extraordinary discoveries that he did...or at least that these traits were heavy contributors. that's a very difficult connection to establish!

consider, for instance, that the argument could just as easily be run in reverse: one could easily claim that it was the quality of Einstein's thoughts that caused him to exhibit the personality traits we've noticed. so, rather than


personality -------> intelligent thought -------> scientific achievement


perhaps it was


intelligent thought ------------> scientific achievement

&

intelligent thought -------------> personality


if this second argument is the case, then Einstein's INTP-ness (if any) wouldn't deserve any credit for his achievements; it would be just a byproduct of his other mental processes. of course, if it didn't deserve any credit for his achievements, there would be no reason for anyone to treat it as a basis for excusing him for failing to conform to social norms. instead, they'd excuse him just for his achievements, or for his mental faculties and his achievements...personality notwithstanding.

of course, you could still claim that people should be more tolerant of your INTP-ness because you're actually a genius....but if you could provide evidence of that up front, why bother with comparing your personality to Einstein's in the first place ?

[Agent Intellect]

Einstein spent the latter part of his life sequestered in his house, having little contact with the scientific community, trying feverishly to come up with a grand unification theory. he scoffed at the idea of the big bang, and hated quantum mechanics (his famous quote "God doesn't play dice" came from his refusal to believe the randomness of quantum mechanics). to me that sounds like an INTP gone wrong, and its surely his personality affecting his intelligence.

[ElectricWizard]

For an INTP gone wrong, he was pretty awesome. Also, wow, he got something wrong, amazing. INTPs gone right are never wrong, presumably, and also aren't curious as to the target of most physicists, and like fame a lot in that they get recognised and talked about by almost everybody.

[Decaf]

Originally Posted by saorsa

if this second argument is the case, then Einstein's INTP-ness (if any) wouldn't deserve any credit for his achievements; it would be just a byproduct of his other mental processes. of course, if it didn't deserve any credit for his achievements, there would be no reason for anyone to treat it as a basis for excusing him for failing to conform to social norms. instead, they'd excuse him just for his achievements, or for his mental faculties and his achievements...personality notwithstanding.

I believe very much that Einstein was an INTP, but that doesn't mean anything to me personally. Personality is only a part of the psyche and only babies operate purely by it. Saying that another INTPs success was due to his personality is a misidentification, but the area of success is likely related. INTPs are naturally independent thinkers, willing to take on unpopular theories or to have their own theories increasingly differ from the norm. That wasn't his greatest accomplishment in my opinion. He was brave. Intellectually brave, publically brave. Many of us will come up with some theories in our area of expertise. Will we be brave enough to stake our lives on its veracity?

When someone claims the success of others as their own due to common characteristics, it is often connected to same thing that makes us irrationally hostile to others for differences in characteristics. Einstein was Jewish, so should a Jewish person feel pride in Einstein's accomplishments? They didn't do anything, so why should they? I could understand if his parents were proud, but people who've never met him before taking credit?

As far as Einstein being the smartest man in the world, that's like saying <insert famous actress or model name> is the most beautiful woman in the world. Fame has nothing to do with greatness. Much of Einstein's fame came from his work and the controversies surrounding him, but also his hair, which political cartoonist loved to draw. If he'd had a stutter, perhaps his name would have disappeared from history. Perhaps I'm nitpicking, but I bet if we had some way to measure raw intelligence absent of education the smartest man in the world is probably a poor Chinese farmer no one ever heard about outside his village.

Also I feel like what brought on Einstein's later unhealthy INTP behavior was the extraverted society that he was forced to participate in. Fame is not fun for introverts. Maybe when he was at home hiding from his fame he wasn't wasting away trying to find a grand unification theory, but rather happy and enjoying his long denied privacy, working on another of his pet theories.

[ElectricWizard]

What exactly is 'raw intelligence'?

[Decaf]

Originally Posted by ElectricWizard

What exactly is 'raw intelligence'?

No idea, but when people talk about smart they seem to be indicating some nebulous idea of someone's intellectual capacity. If you admit that it is probably a combination of perceived potential, creativity, persistence analytical skills and bravery, then defining someone as the best is meaningless.

[Chronomar]

My parents thought I had a really weak version of that, and, maybe I do, but I really think that for every phycological disorder you can name, every person has a percentage of it in them, even extroverts probably have a little aspergers in them, and even some of the most humble and selfless people are a little narcisistic.

[poop]

I once thought I had AS but not all the symptoms were present. This was after I thought I had autism...It turns out I was just INTP; I guess people just noticed something odd about me and started hinting to me through subtle social interactions that there was something wrong with me to the point that I actually questioned my sanity.
This situation in my life enlightened me to the similarities between many psychological disorders such as non verbal LD, autism and the aforementioned AS. Just because similarities exist doesn't mean anything because everyone is retarded in some aspect, others are just retarded to a greater extent. Where one person excels in an area of their life, there is a good chance that another area in their life will be a level of retarded directly proportionate to that of the successful area in their life. Basically, if someone is superior intellectually, they are bound to be slightly retarded emotionally, they are just not considered retarded because they haven't met a set requirement.

[Decaf]

I wonder if there is any biological backing to the concept of Asperger's. Could it be that even those who seem like clear cut Aspies are simply INTPs who have grown up too long in an psychologically unhealthy environment?

Perhaps I reiterate this too much, but I think the frantic pace at which human uniqueness is being pathologized is scary. Everyone has a full blown mental disorder if you try to compare them to some "normal" value. Its just that some of us have been culturalized enough to recognize that some things we need to keep to ourselves. I don't believe that mental disorders don't exist, but if I were to make a list, it would be a hell of a lot shorter than what we have now.

Seriously... high functioning austism? How is it a disorder if by its very definition it does not hinder experiencing a healthy lifestyle? Doesn't that make it a quirk?

[poop]

Originally Posted by Decaf

I wonder if there is any biological backing to the concept of Asperger's. Could it be that even those who seem like clear cut Aspies are simply INTPs who have grown up too long in an psychologically unhealthy environment?

Perhaps I reiterate this too much, but I think the frantic pace at which human uniqueness is being pathologized is scary. Everyone has a full blown mental disorder if you try to compare them to some "normal" value. Its just that some of us have been culturalized enough to recognize that some things we need to keep to ourselves. I don't believe that mental disorders don't exist, but if I were to make a list, it would be a hell of a lot shorter than what we have now.

Seriously... high functioning austism? How is it a disorder if by its very definition it does not hinder experiencing a healthy lifestyle? Doesn't that make it a quirk?

I agree with your opinion of too many disorders, but I disagree with the aspies being intps idea because an aspie doesn't understand social communication, but I think intps can, they just choose not to commit themselves to the social norms due to maybe a lack of interest in such things, or maybe them not finding the person they are communicating with to be true to them.
The people who tried to convince me I had problems were people who just didn't understand my quiet nature because at times I can be lively and satisfy their needs for social communication. In reality they probably just thought I was stupid because I day dream a lot and don't really care where I do it or what situation I do it in.

[sagewolf]

I wonder if there is any biological backing to the concept of Asperger's. Could it be that even those who seem like clear cut Aspies are simply INTPs who have grown up too long in an psychologically unhealthy environment?

Perhaps I reiterate this too much, but I think the frantic pace at which human uniqueness is being pathologized is scary. Everyone has a full blown mental disorder if you try to compare them to some "normal" value. Its just that some of us have been culturalized enough to recognize that some things we need to keep to ourselves. I don't believe that mental disorders don't exist, but if I were to make a list, it would be a hell of a lot shorter than what we have now.

Seriously... high functioning austism? How is it a disorder if by its very definition it does not hinder experiencing a healthy lifestyle? Doesn't that make it a quirk?

Um. I agree that the world has gone way overboard with diagnosing people as having a disorder just because they're not 'normal' (I apparently have ADD XP).

Still, I do not believe INTP and asperger's/autism are the same thing. My brother and (suspectedly) sister are autistic; I am an INTP. My brother does not, AT ALL, get metaphors or figures of speech; he takes everything literally. I've never had this problem. He has the practice of 'tinning', or beating his hands against his chest, to relieve stress or excitement. He also runs all over the place habitually, just because, for the sake of running. Sometimes when I'm thinking or in a bout of creative energy, I pace while I think, but I never run in circles or go hyperactive. Trust me; there are similarities, and the fact that he's autistic, I was said to have ADD and those two disorders apparently run in families do make me think there's a connection, loosely speaking. But I don't think it's the same thing.

BTW: My brother is what is called 'high-functioning'. He is emphatically not 'quirky'; that's what I am (partially because i am proud of my quirk).

[Agent Intellect]

copied from INTPc, this is apparently what an ENFJ woman thought of INTPs:

INTPs fall into several unfortunate categories and only one fortunate.

Observe.

Area One: Aspergers/autistic - this cuts the field but what? Half?

That strikes down a large percentage of a type that already hasn't got a member to waste. This leads us hence to:

Area Two: The remainder who are not mentally deranged/held back in any capacity.

This area has to be cut by a half or maybe just a third to accomodate the females, as I am female. (PS - the women aren't ugly. Too bad I'm straight.)

So what we have left are A) the unattractive and B) the attractive.

I have no clue why INTPs have more than their fair share of ugly but they do. I can't even say that I've seen a lot of ugly INTJs. Just INTPs for some reason. Dunno if this has an organic connection to what triggers the high rate of Aspergers or what, but this is Group A. (Sometimes, the autistic guys are cute themselves, but I would not date one.)

Group B includes the INTPs that are masculine, engaging, mostly aware of the people around them, edgy and funny. They stand in stark contrast to Group A, populated by bizarre mutant people who woo women with l33t speek from their parents' basements. Group B ranges from fun guy-next-door appeal to astonishingly "must look away" hot.

[Inappropriate Behavior]

I finally decided to look into Aspergers a little (found this page listing symptoms) and found that I share almost none of those traits (except a delay in learning how to ride a bike).

Many of the syptoms are just the opposite for me. Especially:

Dislike any changes in routines.
Appear to lack empathy.
Be unable to recognize subtle differences in speech tone, pitch, and accent that alter the meaning of others’ speech. Thus, your child may not understand a joke or may take a sarcastic comment literally. Likewise, his or her speech may be flat and difficult to understand because it lacks tone, pitch, and accent.
Have heightened sensitivity and become overstimulated by loud noises, lights, or strong tastes or textures. For more information about these symptoms, see sensory integration dysfunction

I love routine changes especially. Anything to break the hum-drum of everyday life.

[Agent Intellect]

Originally Posted by Inappropriate Behavior

Dislike any changes in routines.
Appear to lack empathy.
Be unable to recognize subtle differences in speech tone, pitch, and accent that alter the meaning of others’ speech. Thus, your child may not understand a joke or may take a sarcastic comment literally. Likewise, his or her speech may be flat and difficult to understand because it lacks tone, pitch, and accent.
Have heightened sensitivity and become overstimulated by loud noises, lights, or strong tastes or textures. For more information about these symptoms, see sensory integration dysfunction

the underlined parts are often true for me.

[Ermine]

Originally Posted by sagewolf

Um. I agree that the world has gone way overboard with diagnosing people as having a disorder just because they're not 'normal' (I apparently have ADD XP).

Still, I do not believe INTP and asperger's/autism are the same thing. My brother and (suspectedly) sister are autistic; I am an INTP. My brother does not, AT ALL, get metaphors or figures of speech; he takes everything literally. I've never had this problem. He has the practice of 'tinning', or beating his hands against his chest, to relieve stress or excitement. He also runs all over the place habitually, just because, for the sake of running. Sometimes when I'm thinking or in a bout of creative energy, I pace while I think, but I never run in circles or go hyperactive. Trust me; there are similarities, and the fact that he's autistic, I was said to have ADD and those two disorders apparently run in families do make me think there's a connection, loosely speaking. But I don't think it's the same thing.

BTW: My brother is what is called 'high-functioning'. He is emphatically not 'quirky'; that's what I am (partially because i am proud of my quirk).

I also don't get why INTP would be confused with autism. My sister is severely autistic, I am strongly INTP. We have hardly anything in common other than a distaste for crowds and well above average skill in certain areas (though it's hard to tell with my sister since she doesn't talk of her own free will). I've noticed that autistic people tend to exhibit extreme S traits, which is a huge contrast with an INTP personality.

[mmortal03]

Originally Posted by Agent Intellect

the underlined parts are often true for me.

Same with me. Regarding the first two, it probably isn't because we can't do it, just that we don't want to expend the energy to do it/don't feel it is necessary.

As far as the third one, that could be low latent inhibition, which could be separate from Asperger/Autism.

[FusionKnight]

Asperger syndrome is named after Austrian pediatrician Hans Asperger who, in 1944, described children in his practice who lacked nonverbal communication skills, demonstrated limited empathy with their peers, and were physically clumsy. Fifty years later, AS was standardized as a diagnosis, but questions about many aspects of AS remain. For example, there is lingering doubt about the distinction between AS and high-functioning autism (HFA); partly due to this, the prevalence of AS is not firmly established. The exact cause of AS is unknown, although research supports the likelihood of a genetic basis; brain imaging techniques have not identified a clear common pathology.

The above is from Wikipedia; the bolded sentence terrifies me. Like ADD, we've constructed an imaginary disease that doesn't even have a pathology! If a person's behavior differs from the accepted "norm", we medicate or condition the person back to someone's view of "normality".

[Decaf]

Asperger's was originally defined as a stepping stone to try to provide autistic children with a means of being seen as having value. Hans Asperger's suggested that if these "autistic" children could achieve as much success as many of his original case study did, it would support the idea that autistic children had contributable value in society.

Of course we all know how this story goes. He died in 1980 and eventually his research was picked up by drug companies and the psychology community in order to fuel the frenzy of pathologizing society. This is my greatest fear as I being to pursue psychology as a career. What evils might my own work lead to in the wrong hands?

[mmortal03]

Originally Posted by FusionKnight

The above is from Wikipedia; the bolded sentence terrifies me. Like ADD, we've constructed an imaginary disease that doesn't even have a pathology! If a person's behavior differs from the accepted "norm", we medicate or condition the person back to someone's view of "normality".

The exact cause is unknown, but they have a good idea where to look and there is tons of hard science behind it. Asperger's isn't some made up syndrome so drug companies can sell more drugs.

[Agent Intellect]

i just got done reading about an interesting study of autistic children.

they did a puppet show for children around four years old (some with and some without autism) where puppet 1 puts a marble in box A, leave the stage, then puppet 2 comes, takes the marble from box A and puts it in box B, then leaves. puppet 1 comes back, and they ask the kids which box puppet 1 will look for the marble in. non autistic children would say box A, because they know that thats where puppet 1 thinks the marble is, but the autistic children would say box B, because thats where the marble actually is.

non autistic infants around about 10-14 months will start pointing at objects of interest to attract other peoples attention to it, and check to make sure that people are, in fact, looking at said object. children with autism often won't, but will in a way just "expect" people to know what object it is they are interested in.

autism isn't just about people being unable to empathize with other people, but they're unable to predict how other people will actually think. they don't seem to have the ability to think "this person must be thinking this".