DMT: The Spirit Molecule

[Sensi Star]

If you are not aware of what this is, DMT (N,N-Dimethyltryptamine) is a psychoactive compound that falls into the category of 'classic' psychedelic. This means that it's activity is focused on serotonin receptors, much like Psilocybin, LSD, and Mescaline (it's structure is only a few atoms different than Psilocybin).

The most striking thing that sets this apart from other psychedelics is that it is much more abundant in the biological ecosystem, and most importantly it is produced in the human body as a part of everyday metabolism (in smaller levels) and is believed to play a role in natural elevated states of consciousness such as dreaming, meditation, and near death phenomena (in higher levels). It is also believed that a high dose of DMT is released from reserve (the Pineal gland) near the time of death.

What intrigues me most is that when humans deliberately explore the DMT state (by extracting it from plant sources, then inhaling the vapor from heated crystals), the resulting experience presents themes of parallel realities, entity contact, and an unmistakable sense of one's consciousness leaving the physical body.

I encourage INTPs (especially) to explore this, because of our ability to perceive and analyze objectively while transcending cultural presumptions that would peg this chemical as merely a drug that makes you temporarily "hallucinate". The main factor that inclines me away from this (even as a skeptic and a man of logic is it's existence in many, many organisms including mammals) is it's presence in many organisms, which inclines me to believe that DMT related perception has some "real-world" validity and serves a biological purpose.

If you are intrigued by this and don't have the time to research it thoroughly, I suggested starting here:

YouTube - Rick Strassman on Magical Egypt - Navigating the Afterlife

YouTube - Rick Strassman on Magical Egypt - Navigating the Afterlife

(a 10 minute clip)

There is also a longer (a little over an hour) and more thorough documentary that was released only a few months ago by an independent film maker:

http://www.thespiritmolecule.com/ (documentary homepage)

http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/5996...ule_%282010%29 (torrent)

I would be very interested in your thoughts on this, what you think it's purpose is, and what you think of the possibility of DMT allowing us to perceive a legitimate alternate reality that may be awaiting us after death.

[shoeless]

oh jesus.

i hang out with super stoners.
i know aaaaaaaaaaaaall about DMT. (not from experience, stoners just seem to think it's the coolest shit ever and always talk about it. as for me, meh.)

i only skimmed the first post so this might have already been said, but supposedly when you die (or well when your brain shuts down) your brain releases a high concentration of DMT and that's where all these religious experiences and flashbacks and "white lights" and stuff come from when people have near-death experiences.

so yeah. it's pretty cool i guess.

[SkyWalker]

I'd like to try it and analyze it. REALLY! But am a bit afraid that it would fuck me up! I am philosophizing too much already without DMT. Maybe my DMT levels are already higher than others, I can just daydream away and leave the body naturally!

I think the good thing about INTPoids is that they can come back from that dream state to reality with EUREKA moments.

Now about DMT...Could I damage my intelligence or emotions or normal behavior on long term by DMT? Nobody knows?

Or should I just do it, become an expert psychonaut, write a book about it and sell it to all the stoners? Then i could at least still pay the bills even if I fucked up my brain in the process?

Some say LSD is reset button of your mind's operating system, so DMT would be as well. Is that good or bad?

Lets make two lists all together?
1 What might be there to win by DMT usage
2 What might be there to lose by DMT usage

And then logically decide if its worth a try?

[Sensi Star]

^^ Yeah I know what you mean. My head is in the clouds enough without psychedelics as well. In my opinion psychedelics temporarily turn anyone into an INTP. So when an inherent INTP does them (and I have), the result is like INTP squared. So if there is any baggage in your life it's best to hold off. On the other hand if the dose is high enough you won't have time to entertain your baggage

The good thing is that if any damage is done, it will be purely psychological (not neurological). DMT has a very clean pharmacological profile, so there's no risk of neurological tissue damage. The best way to prevent psychological complications is to wait until you are fully stable to experiment.

I'm young and healing from emotional trauma, so right now is not the time for me. I plan to try it in the future when I've got a solid identity and am at peace with my life. However I wouldn't mind trying sub-breakthrough doses out of curiosity. And also, if it goes bad, it will be over in 5 minutes.

[Glordag]

When you try ayahuasca, you may learn what it's like to die and be reborn. No joke or sarcasm. Just don't expect to have an easy ride.

[SpaceYeti]

I've always wanted to meet machine elves.

[DarkGreen]

Urban Dictionary for those who are not in the know.

1. machine elves
The hyper-spacial entities that inhabit the DMT realm. Seemingly sentient, cheerful, mischievous little beings who love to play and show you their wonderful psychedelic alien machinery. The existence of the machine elves was popularised in the psychedelic community by the teachings of the great lord Terence McKenna (RIP).

Meeting the machine elves is generally regarded as the textbook 'breakthrough' DMT experience. The result of finally getting enough of the elf spice in your system in time.
"I exhaled the smoke and laid back with my eyes closed. Moments later I was in this large room made up completely of fractal patterns, and the machine elves were all around me! Finally I broke through."

[SkyWalker]

Aha! So what is there to win from the machine elves?

btw why the word "machine" in machine elves?

[Artsu Tharaz]

Are they related to underpants gnomes?

[SkyWalker]

Originally Posted by Artsu Tharaz

Are they related to underpants gnomes?

why do you always come with your underpants gnomes? we are talking about machine elves here!

[Cogwulf]

Originally Posted by Artsu Tharaz

Are they related to underpants gnomes?

I've never heard of underpants gnomes, are they like sock gremlins?

[Architect]

Zero interest.

The problem in this world isn't in creating altered states (that's too easy), its actually having a clear understanding of reality as it is. Even normal people under no influence have little grasp of what is right in front of their face. Evolutionary programming and social influence ('herd thinking') keep people far from reality. It wasn't long ago that people believed that house prices would just go up forever (not me as I sold mine at the exact peak and haven't bought since).

The only mind altering drug I take is tea in the morning.

[DarkGreen]

More from urban dictionary:
1. underpants gnomes
1. Small creatures from South Park that have to go to work. They work all night and they search for underpants! They won't stop until they have underpants.

Why do they do that you may ask..For profit of course. They have just not quite figured out phase 2.
2. They can mostly be observed in Tweak's room all hours of the night.
phase 1-get underpants
phase 2- ??????????
phase 3- $$$PROFIT$$$

As of yet 'sock gremlin' does not exist in urbandictionary, sorry cog.

[Cogwulf]

Originally Posted by DarkGreen

As of yet 'sock gremlin' does not exist in urbandictionary, sorry cog.

They do however, exist as a suggestion on google

Spoiler:

[SpaceYeti]

Originally Posted by SkyWalker

Aha! So what is there to win from the machine elves?

btw why the word "machine" in machine elves?

I have no idea. I heard about them from someone who did a lot of drugs, and I simply want to eventually meet them.

[SkyWalker]

Originally Posted by Architect

Zero interest.

The problem in this world isn't in creating altered states (that's too easy), its actually having a clear understanding of reality as it is.

Maybe we could learn something in the altered state, but then it would be the mission to bring that wisdom out to practical use in reality afterwards.

A ride on DMT "just for the experience" -without bringing anything back- would be useless. It is only useful if we can bring something of value back to reality.

[JarNew]

I plan on doing DMT when my brain stops growing at age 25.

Here's the entire documentary streamed.

http://psychedelicadventure.blogspot...ary-movie.html

[Glordag]

Originally Posted by JarNew

I plan on doing DMT when my brain stops growing at age 25.

Here's the entire documentary streamed.

http://psychedelicadventure.blogspot...ary-movie.html

As a 25 year old, I am now depressed. Thanks for that.

[Sensi Star]

Originally Posted by SkyWalker

A ride on DMT "just for the experience" -without bringing anything back- would be useless. It is only useful if we can bring something of value back to reality.

I think "just for the experience" justifies trying DMT even without bringing anything back. What do we bring back from sex-for-pleasure (with condom), listening to a moving piece of music, riding a roller coaster? I don't think we bring back much from those, but they're all very popular activities. Experiences like those simply make life richer and more enjoyable. I think not having had a heavy psychedelic experience in your life is having missed out on something very interesting.

And this is assuming that there is NOT anything to be learned from DMT, which cannot be assumed just yet. One of the more abundant acquirements expressed from people who've done it is coming to terms with death. A lot of people are no longer afraid of death, because they've virtually experienced it already. And this is not to mention what it could possibly teach us about ourselves, perception, and reality in general.

[Causeless]

Originally Posted by Architect

Even normal people under no influence have little grasp of what is right in front of their face. Evolutionary programming and social influence ('herd thinking') keep people far from reality.

Could it then not also be possible that producing an "influenced" state could give one a better grasp and understanding of reality? (Even if only through comparison?)

[Sensi Star]

Originally Posted by Architect

Even normal people under no influence have little grasp of what is right in front of their face. Evolutionary programming and social influence ('herd thinking') keep people far from reality.

It seems you might have the wrong idea about what psychedelics do to the mind. This ^ thought suggests that you think psychedelics ADD to the sedation resulting from social programming. In fact, they do just the opposite. They do not relax you into a state of mental fog and indifference like alcohol and heroin, they stimulate and elevate your consciousness to an extent greater than the clarity of mind while sober, even though the thoughts/ideas may be coming more rapidly than usual.

Psychedelics actually dissolve the programming that is normally compromising one's objectivity in a sober state. This is why the government is so afraid of them, because they are a huge threat to the acceptance of ideologies and especially misinformation. When you are under the influence of a sufficient dose of a serotonergic psychedelic, you are taking a look at the world and yourself with stunning objectively, without your ego acting as a filter / information bias. The ego is temporarily disabled, and you are receiving raw information. When you hear about people having "BAD TRIPS", what is really happening is this: the tripper's ego has (while sober) been filtering / suppressing so many insights (mostly negative) about their life, that when the ego is disabled, all these revelations come crashing in on them with all of that which is bad or wrong about their life and they realize that they are jerks or that they are not living their life properly, and this overwhelms them so they freak out.

[Andropov]

Originally Posted by SkyWalker

Now about DMT...Could I damage my intelligence or emotions or normal behavior on long term by DMT? Nobody knows?

What kind of fucking bullshit excuse is that? Yeah, you could, but you almost certainly wouldn't. By that logic, why even fucking do anything since you could technically die or damage yourself in some way or another.

[Andropov]

Originally Posted by Architect

Zero interest.

The problem in this world isn't in creating altered states (that's too easy), its actually having a clear understanding of reality as it is. Even normal people under no influence have little grasp of what is right in front of their face. Evolutionary programming and social influence ('herd thinking') keep people far from reality. It wasn't long ago that people believed that house prices would just go up forever (not me as I sold mine at the exact peak and haven't bought since).

The only mind altering drug I take is tea in the morning.

Wow, dude you really stick it to the man. Fuck the NWO. Fucking sheeple, man. Just following directions from Big Brother. That's why we Wal Mart employees have to unite... and break the man from within.

You're an idiot with no knowledge whatsoever about the subject.

[EyeSeeCold]

Andropov:

Understanding Made Simple

[SpaceYeti]

Originally Posted by Andropov

Wow, dude you really stick it to the man. Fuck the NWO. Fucking sheeple, man. Just following directions from Big Brother. That's why we Wal Mart employees have to unite... and break the man from within.

You're an idiot with no knowledge whatsoever about the subject.

You're a fucktard who would rather insult people than discuss things.



(To all)
Do I hear a "QED", anyone?

[Melllvar]

QED.

Actually I'm getting really sick of when someone posts something stupid and everyone's like, "Man, this guy sucks," and I'm all like, "Hey, give him a break," and then they just go and post like 10 more things that are even more retarded. It's happened like three times this week alone, and not just on this forum.

Also DMT. I'd give it a shot, but at this point in my life drug opportunities seem to be disappearing faster than forum goodwill towards Andropov.

[Glordag]

Originally Posted by Melllvar

QED.

Actually I'm getting really sick of when someone posts something stupid and everyone's like, "Man, this guy sucks," and I'm all like, "Hey, give him a break," and then they just go and post like 10 more things that are even more retarded. It's happened like three times this week alone, and not just on this forum.

Also DMT. I'd give it a shot, but at this point in my life drug opportunities seem to be disappearing faster than forum goodwill towards Andropov.

I think people coming from other forums forget the simple things like taking your shoes off at the door. *shrug*

[SkyWalker]

i just hope that when i take DMT, that i dont jump out the window because i think i can fly... that would really suck

so shall we just get together at some cool beach in california and all take DMT? INTP-DMT-day?

so who's going to be the sober babysitter for the rest of us?

its probably not legal, any country where it is legal?

[Andropov]

Originally Posted by SpaceYeti

You're a fucktard who would rather insult people than discuss things.



(To all)
Do I hear a "QED", anyone?

There's nothing to discuss in this situation. Architect is uneducated about the subject of psychedelic drugs. What's wrong with ridiculing people who are ignorant and don't know it?

[EyeSeeCold]

Originally Posted by SkyWalker

i just hope that when i take DMT, that i dont jump out the window because i think i can fly... that would really suck

so shall we just get together at some cool beach in california and all take DMT? INTP-DMT-day?

so who's going to be the sober babysitter for the rest of us?

its probably not legal, any country where it is legal?

I'm there. Not it.

(no, really, I am there, about 15 minutes from the beach. )

[Dimensional Transition]

Oh I love reading about DMT. Such a fascinating substance.

But yeah, I agree with some others and say no. I wouldn't do it, not now at least. Perhaps when I'm not as depressed and anxious as I am now. A very high dose of cannabis already made me feel very, very uncomfortable, so I'm pretty sure I wouldn't like LSD or DMT either. Even if it is just because of the uncomfortable THC 'trip'. It's just not for me. Not until I have completely formed my own identity and am an emotionally stable person.
I don't think psychedelics at the age of 16 are a good idea for anyone.

[Chasm]

DMT is perhaps the most interesting psychedelic substance known to man, it raises so many questions - like why is it found in such a large variety of plants and mammals, including human brain... What is the ultimate role of this chemical in Earth life?

The documentary in question (DMT: The Spirit Molecule) doesn't really delve very deep, it's mostly basic information about DMT. The subjective experience accounts (in a controlled study) are pretty interesting though. All in all a nice movie.

Originally Posted by SkyWalker

i just hope that when i take DMT, that i dont jump out the window because i think i can fly... that would really suck

Most people stay more or less still during the plateau of a DMT trip. Best thing to do is just lay down in a bed and let your consciousness enter the DMT space.

[Moocow]

I thought the movie was terrible. It was just a bunch of interiews with people giving their opinions, while flashy filler effects flickered between frames.

[Bird]

Dumb Bird Moment:


So if you take enough DMT it will
make your body think you're dead
and you'll die?


Realization Moment:

Overdosing on anything kills you.

[Dimensional Transition]

Originally Posted by Bird

Dumb Bird Moment:


So if you take enough DMT it will
make your body think you're dead
and you'll die?


Realization Moment:

Overdosing on anything kills you.

That does not make sense, as there are people who have survived near-death experiences. They got a shot of DMT from their brain, so they would've died too if that was the case.

[Sensi Star]

Originally Posted by Moocow

I thought the movie was terrible. It was just a bunch of interiews with people giving their opinions, while flashy filler effects flickered between frames.

I too was highly disappointed by this movie. This film focused WAY too much on the subjective experiences.

I think there is much more crucial information that should have examined in more depth in the film, such as the pineal gland (it's metabolic activity, role as the 3rd eye in certain cultures, and the 49 day coincidence), ancient / tribal DMT use, it's possible role as an everyday consciousness modulator, etc.

Because of the imbalance in it's content, to someone who knows nothing about DMT this film may come across as a collection of hippy rants about a powerful drug experience. It could have been much more scientific and informative.

[Agapooka]

I actually liked the subjective experiences, because I found that they had a lot in common.

That said, I'd like to hear more experiences so that I could establish a clearer pattern.

Plus, I'd like to know everything Sensi mentioned. Really, this substance has sparked my curiosity. One of the ideas that I found most compelling was the idea that "too much DMT creates a psychedelic experience and not enough makes life seem dull and grey".

That statement seems to imply that:

1. DMT is in continual production.
2. It is always being used to regulate the present experience.
3. There is therefore no such thing as an "unaltered" state. Every state is manipulated.

These three implications lead to the questions:

* If every state is essentially altered, then how can we call one thing a hallucination and another thing reality?
* What is the distinction if both seem just as real as each other, depending on the state?

Agapooka

[Zensunni]

Sensei,

Can you explain why you call dreaming and near-death 'elevated' states of consciousness instead of altered? I have never heard that, dreaming, is elevated.

[SpaceYeti]

Originally Posted by Andropov

There's nothing to discuss in this situation. Architect is uneducated about the subject of psychedelic drugs. What's wrong with ridiculing people who are ignorant and don't know it?

His post had nothing to do with psychedelic drugs except that he thinks it's more conducive to understanding reality to not take them. Which it is.

[SpaceYeti]

Originally Posted by Dimensional Transition

That does not make sense, as there are people who have survived near-death experiences. They got a shot of DMT from their brain, so they would've died too if that was the case.

You can die from an overdose (of anything), but it doesn't happen every time.

[Chasm]

Originally Posted by Bird

Dumb Bird Moment:


So if you take enough DMT it will
make your body think you're dead
and you'll die?


Realization Moment:

Overdosing on anything kills you.

Why would "making your body think you're dead" physically kill you, even if you managed to get to that sort of state on DMT?

Also, there is no known LD50 for DMT in humans. Pretty much impossible to get a deadly overdose of it, like it is with most (not all) tryptamines.

[kantor1003]

Originally Posted by SpaceYeti

...thinks it's more conducive to understanding reality to not take them. Which it is.

How do you know this for a fact? I don't think it's that clear cut. Perhaps you could elaborate why you don't think it is?
As for me, I'm really not sure (I don't think too many people are. Or at least that honestly can state one or the other as fact seeing that there is still much research left to do on the subject) and where I stand on the matter seems to change almost from every time I think about it.
Now I tend to think that experiencing an alternate state of perception/reality can be beneficial. Looking at reality through as many different viewpoints as possible can't really be that bad of a thing.

[Abraxas]

Originally Posted by Agapooka

...
* If every state is essentially altered, then how can we call one thing a hallucination and another thing reality?
* What is the distinction if both seem just as real as each other, depending on the state?

Perhaps defining reality from hallucination is based on the major consensus. If such a thing exists on this matter.

[SpaceYeti]

Originally Posted by kantor1003

How do you know this for a fact? I don't think it's that clear cut. Perhaps you could elaborate why you don't think it is?
As for me, I'm really not sure (I don't think too many people are. Or at least that honestly can state one or the other as fact seeing that there is still much research left to do on the subject) and where I stand on the matter seems to change almost from every time I think about it.
Now I tend to think that experiencing an alternate state of perception/reality can be beneficial. Looking at reality through as many different viewpoints as possible can't really be that bad of a thing.

Taking drugs does not alter your body such that you gain a new manner or mechanic of perception that you lack without them, but it does alter your perception of the world anyway. That suggests the differences in normal and drug perception is a difference in clarity, drug perception having less.

[Jesse]

I can see this as having a beneficial effect in evolution. I assume it works as a near death last ditch effort so the person is not focusing on pain and hence the body can attempt to heal while being out of it. By providing it constantly the person doesn't go into a state of perpetual boredom and hence always feels like it is experiencing something new.

Not much implications in the findings, unless you actually believed your experiences are all objective and not subjective.

[snafupants]

Originally Posted by Jesse

I can see this as having a beneficial effect in evolution. I assume it works as a near death last ditch effort so the person is not focusing on pain and hence the body can attempt to heal while being out of it. By providing it constantly the person doesn't go into a state of perpetual boredom and hence always feels like it is experiencing something new.

Not much implications in the findings, unless you actually believed your experiences are all objective and not subjective.

That is one argument, but why then do bizarre themes emerge among disparate peoples who have had no correspondence with one another? Some folks go into it with complete ignorance or actively wanting a particular type of trip, and are given predictable material.

Your argument would make more sense if the internal slideshow was tailored to each individual's personality, consciousness, etc. Even, maybe especially, from an agnostic standpoint, the overwhelming similarity among these themes should raise questions.

And to be a complete smartass, what is the purpose of DMT in plants then? Do they need to vanquish their compulsions to give up too? Oh, I see one having a near death experience now!

[snafupants]

Originally Posted by Architect

Zero interest.

The problem in this world isn't in creating altered states (that's too easy), its actually having a clear understanding of reality as it is. Even normal people under no influence have little grasp of what is right in front of their face. Evolutionary programming and social influence ('herd thinking') keep people far from reality. It wasn't long ago that people believed that house prices would just go up forever (not me as I sold mine at the exact peak and haven't bought since).

The only mind altering drug I take is tea in the morning.

Okay you can keep sipping your tea as you survey your shrewd business practices, but realize that most people can't simply switch from an ingrained social imprint to seeing reality afresh at will. Apparently you have found a way to manage this though.

And as far as your credibility goes, if you haven't tried it before, then how can you imply that temporary altered states shatter one's shot at a clear understanding of reality as it is, as you put it? And if you have tried something analogous before, then that makes you a total hypocrite for having this conservative, tea drinking position.

Should we believe that because you supposedly sold a house at the right time that you transcend "herd thinking" and are somehow an enlightened being? GTFOH.

[Jesse]

Hmm, I would assume DMT increases creativity. I would also assume it has other qualities, mostly medical. Also if you get enough people to experience something chances are you can cut out the ones that don't fit in your pattern.

Every drug occurs naturally in some form or another.

[snafupants]

Originally Posted by Jesse

Hmm, I would assume DMT increases creativity. I would also assume it has other qualities, mostly medical. Also if you get enough people to experience something chances are you can cut out the ones that don't fit in your pattern.

Every drug occurs naturally in some form or another.

Get enough people? If someone claims to predict the lottery and they are completely wrong around thirty percent of the time and extremely close or zoned in the remaining time, does that mean that you discount that phenomenon? Essentially, that is a pattern worth investigating. Just because you can't understand something does not make it false or nonsensical.

[Jesse]

I don't know how the drug works. I assume if it converts physical cues from the outside world then gives you a psychedelic state based on those cues most people would have similar experiences if they are taking it in the same place (this theory is easy to test to, take some one outside then inside see if trip changes). If it works by conveying something mental or psychological people would interpret it according to their own hang ups and culture. Hence Christians would see god while pagans would see deities. It's not that hard to apply logic to something instead of assuming it's unknowable.