Go Back   INTP Forum > Within > Faith & Spirituality > Old Philosophy & Faith Subforum Archive

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 29th-September-2008, 11:38 PM   Auburn's time 29th-September-2008, 03:38 PM    #1
Auburn
is part anima
 
Auburn's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,798
Default Religion - Bias to INFJs?

*I hope I don't step on anyone's toes by saying this*

Let me tell you a story... *sits down in the big chair, pulls out his pipe and takes off his slippers*

Once upon a time (3 years ago) - as I first began to wonder about life, existence, vanity, and reality with an intense interest - I came to the logical conclusion that Christianity must be the absolute truth.

I attended a private Christian Academy and became very active in the school ministry. This was very hard for me (P), but I was convinced that my difficulty was because of flawed character traits that I had, which needed to go away. I began to preach in front of congregations. This was challenging to me (I), but I persevered for the sake of my faith in God's power to change my weaknesses into strengths. I realized that my compassion for people was almost nonexistent (T). And I begged to God to make my heart more sensitive (F).

I went canvassing, going door to door selling bible books, for 10 weeks!!! This was extremely hard for me (I). It was also very demanding (J) - full days starting at 7:45am and ending at 9:30pm. Nevertheless I got through it with a legit smile on my weary face.
---------------

I later relaized that I was an INTP, and that my personality is that of a philosopher. And:

" In religion, one knows through revelation. Ultimate truths are acquired through inspiration. They cannot be proved true and one is asked to believe them without proof. In philosophy, on the contrary, one is asked to "believe" nothing... Whether religion is an adequate substitute for philosophy depends on subjective factors, principally on the strength of a believer's faith. Philosophers are, perhaps naturally, inclined to see intense faith as wilful blindness, or at least as unjustifiable avoidance of logical difficulty. Nietzche defined faith as 'not wanting to know what is true'..."
- Western Philosophy, An introduction - by R. J. Hollingdale
------------------

I then realized that by nature, I could no longer have the faith that Christianity demands of it's followers. I saw that it is completely natural for me to question and have doubt.

So now here's the point of why I made you read that whole thing! As I analyzed myself - and why I did what I did, and also Christianity, and why it demamds what it does - I came to this intuitive conclusion:

The character that the Bible teaches must be attained is that of the INFJs personality. By asking a reform of character, it is actually asking for a change from one type to another type.

Upon my departure form Christianity, my closest ministry friend, a very devout Christian, came to me in hopes of changing my mind. I tried to explain to him my stance by logic, but he wasn't getting what I was saying. I explained to him that I believed Christianity was taylored to the INFJs, just as philosophy to the INTPs and Music to the ISTP. I made him take the test and he indeed came out INFJ.

Again this is only an intuitive ananysis. What do you think?

Auburn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th-September-2008, 11:52 PM   NoID10ts's time 29th-September-2008, 05:52 PM    #2
NoID10ts
aka Noddy
 
NoID10ts's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,510
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

I think it is an interesting idea but I might suggest that it is not Christianity as a whole, but perhaps different types will be attracted to different expressions of Christianity, perhaps even certain denominations.

I come from a Southern Baptist background and experienced the same "out of place" feeling that you speak of, but in my case the denomination is absolutely dominated by SJ's and mostly extroverted ones.

I have been told that INTP's do quite well in certain more liberal protestant churches and even priestly orders like the Jesuits.

Now here is a fascinating examination:

What type do you think Jesus is as he appears in the Bible?

How about other Biblical heavyweights like Moses, Paul, Noah, etc?
__________________
NoID10ts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th-September-2008, 11:55 PM   Inappropriate Behavior's time 29th-September-2008, 06:55 PM    #3
Inappropriate Behavior
is peeing on the carpet
 
Inappropriate Behavior's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Behind you, kicking you in the ass
Posts: 3,802
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

I think you've opened up another can of worms

Seriously though, I grew up in christianity but it never fit with me as a religion. Getting into my questioning and seeking answers phase led me out of the religion first and out of any faith whatsoever second. In matters of faith, I fit the INTP description you laid out to a "T".
As for christianity (or any religion) being biased towards INFJs, maybe that is just the personality type that best fits how you came to view christianity. cryptonia, among others, are surely to come along soon to debate this in further detail
Inappropriate Behavior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th-September-2008, 11:59 PM   Auburn's time 29th-September-2008, 03:59 PM    #4
Auburn
is part anima
 
Auburn's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,798
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

I came from a Seventh-Day Adventist Church. Not only that, but I was a part of what is referred to as the "Present Truth" movement, which is very conservative.

I am not so much referring to what types actually are Christian in this day and age, but what type the Bible itself teaches should be attained.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoID10ts View Post
What type do you think Jesus is as he appears in the Bible?
For a long time, I thought he (being perfect) would be the complete balance of all 8 functions. However, looking closer, I see him as maybe:

60% Introverted ------------ He went off into the mountains for whole nights in prayer
40% Extroverted ------------ He was around thousands of people daily

50% Feeling ------------------ Mercy (F) and Truth (T) are balanced in him.
50% Thinking ---------------- Mercy (F) and Truth (T) are balanced in him.

85% Judging ----------------- His entire life was centered on ministering
15% Perceiving -------------- Yet he was always calm and open minded

Intuitive, for sure
Auburn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th-September-2008, 12:05 AM   fullerene's time 29th-September-2008, 07:05 PM    #5
fullerene
Resident Member
 
fullerene's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,156
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

edit: lol, three posts slipped in front of me, and I already got called out

I love the examination of MBTI with religion... this actually already crossed my mind a while ago. INFJs are very much more prone to religion in general, in my opinion, than INTPs are (saying that after having been here and spent a substantial amount of time on an infj forum as well). I feel kind of bad with Christianity kind of "spilling" into so many other threads... but you did mention it yourself. That said...

For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.
(Rom 12:4-8)

and...

For the body does not consist of one member but of many. If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body. And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. If all were a single member, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, yet one body. The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you," nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."... but God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it, that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another.
(1 Cor 12:14-25, skipped a bit in the middle to make it short)

I personally do not think that Christianity, at least, is in itself biased towards any type of person. In fact these verses were the first things that popped into my head as soon as I started reading about MBTI. I'm actually kind of surprised, if you're from Arizona, that you thought it were an INFJ bias though. You said that the things you were doing were a challenge to your I... so wouldn't that make them more E-biased? And where did the N come in? I thought the Christian culture down south would be ExFJ based, if anything.

but that said, I do not think that's fair to the religion. C.S. Lewis is an INTJ, for instance, and he's done remarkable things for the religion... it's not like door to door bible-book sales, preaching in front of congregations, and sensitivity towards people's feelings are the only jobs to be done. I suspect, after having read some of them, that most theologians, the philosophers of religion, are INTPs. At least... I think Calvin's precision of thought goes beyond what other types are capable of--maybe besides the ISTP... but he did relationships between abstract ideas far better than an S-type would.

Sensitivity may be the INFJs' place in religion, while theology may be ours. Mobilizing to action may be the call of the ENTJs, while the SJs (I like the way someone put them in another thread, soft spunges that soak up culture until they're hard as a rock) would defend established things to the death.

I'm not sure about Arizona... but I've heard (going off of my brother's word for it, who now lives in Houston) that most of the churches down south are devoid of theology and vague to the point of deism. Out here in the Northeast there's more of a bias towards "cold" or "lifeless" thought--not as bad as the south's bias towards thoughtlessness, because the thoughtlessness of the church blends with the thoughtlessness of America, while the over-thoughtfulness of the church up here blends with the thoughtlessness of America, but it's still noticeable. To take Christianity and establish a "here's exactly how we're going to go about practicing it" is, of course, going to limit it to one type or another.... but I don't really see the INFJ bias in it the way that you do, I don't think, just because of the culture difference and passages like the ones I quoted.
fullerene is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th-September-2008, 12:07 AM   Apathy's time 29th-September-2008, 06:07 PM    #6
Apathy
Member
 
Apathy's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 49
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

Auburn

It seems to me that all your experiences with Christianity were pushing you to require blind faith in order accept your beliefs and religion. There are many different levels of Christianity, and in fact you do not even need to belong to organized religion to be one.

Blind faith cannot be embraced by everyone. Since it seems that you have embraced life with philisophy use that. There are perhaps just as many or more theories and facts out there supporting God and Jesus as against. Gather those you feel most important, research them and discover what your true beliefs actually are. A little faith is required for any belief, even science, so do not be surprised if you find you can still be a christian without being an INFJ
__________________
-Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day,
Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime,
Teach a man to sell the fish and there will soon be no more fish.
Apathy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th-September-2008, 12:16 AM   fullerene's time 29th-September-2008, 07:16 PM    #7
fullerene
Resident Member
 
fullerene's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,156
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

oh... I would also say I'm not so sure about Jesus being 85% Judging, either. This is the guy who sent the apostles out to different towns without any physical provisions... of course he was just doing that to show them that God would take care of them, but that's a rather adventurous/perceiving thing to do. I certainly wouldn't say he just "stuck to a rigid schedule, " like Judgers do... but it's tough to nail him down with "unplanned adventure" or see how he reacts to surprises and new situations, though, because knowing everything, it's tough to argue that he did anything without a plan.

and yeah... if there's anything in him that's sensing over intuitive (perhaps besides wine at parties and such), I can't think of it.
fullerene is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th-September-2008, 12:47 AM   Auburn's time 29th-September-2008, 04:47 PM    #8
Auburn
is part anima
 
Auburn's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,798
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

I agree that Christianity is indeed a body of members which possess many different personalities. I don't mean to sound close-minded, It's just an intuitive analysis I've had for some time.

There are many things which are key characteristics of other personalities that are directly condescended in Christianity. For Example:

ESFPs - Their carefree view: "
Life is meant to be enjoyed and is not taken too seriously." - by Sandra Krebs Hirsch and Jean Kummerow - makes it much more difficulty for this type to "Be still" "Pray without ceasing" "Be sober minded" - as the Bible teaches - than, say, INFJs.

I don't mean to say that Christianity should ideally be composed of all INFJs, but that it seems "natural" for INFJs to be spiritual as opposed to other types which are not naturally inclined to this. This is why I say there may be a bias to INFJs in Christianity.

As for Arizona, lol, cryptonia, I guess I should first say that SDA Christianity is quite notably separated into liberal and conservative sides. Typically conservatism falls apart because it lacks acceptance and love. Liberality is much more loving and accepting of people, but also sins.

The Christianity I was taught was a rare and beutiful mixture of both - having strong doctrinal basis, but always stressing that "Though I have all knowledge, and understand all mysteries, yet have not love, I am nothing."


Needless to say, it was like 3 years of intenseive Bible Bootcamp, per say.
Auburn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th-September-2008, 01:18 AM   fullerene's time 29th-September-2008, 08:18 PM    #9
fullerene
Resident Member
 
fullerene's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,156
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

and yet...

"Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life? And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?Therefore do not be anxious, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

"Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.


certainly ESFPs can take it "too far"... but what personality type can't? Likewise there are parts of Christianity that grate against each personality type in different ways... but that's because it's in direct conflict with what it deems 'human nature." I don't think the carefree-ness of an ESFP is in contradiction, like you suggest... I just don't think it's easy for us to see the benefit of such a lifestyle. Not worrying is a good thing... I actually know an ESFP who's always there to try to chill her friends out who are worrying about stuff, being silly and just enjoying life--it's uplifting to see someone like that sometimes, especially for the easily depressed INTPs (or at least this one).

It makes sense, actually, that if you think there's a pro INFJ-bias in Christianity, you would think that it contradicts the ESFPs... since they're nearly opposites. I don't have any books to get trustworthy character profiles, but from similarminds.com...

focus on fantasy more than reality
fears doing the wrong thing

avoidant
anxious
somewhat easily frightened
easily offended
emotionally moody
can be wounded at the core
prone to feelings of loneliness
frequently worried
prone to intimidation

^list of INFJ characteristics I would say conflict with biblical ideals... if you want explanation, let me know.^

I do agree that INFJs are far more prone to be "spiritual"... but "spiritual" is not Christian. I think that their character traits are split into virtues and vices just like everyone else's.
fullerene is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th-September-2008, 01:33 AM   Auburn's time 29th-September-2008, 05:33 PM    #10
Auburn
is part anima
 
Auburn's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,798
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

hmmmm.....

Cryptonia, do you see any correlation between character perfection and personality adapting? As I mentioned earlier, I believe I developed my weaknesses in personality by following Biblical principles.

When I stopped professing Christianity, all the positive effects it had on me stayed there. I actually expected them to go away because I had "turned from the path of righteousness", but it seems like they became a part of me irregardless of what I chose to profess.
Auburn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th-September-2008, 01:36 AM   fullerene's time 29th-September-2008, 08:36 PM    #11
fullerene
Resident Member
 
fullerene's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,156
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

hm? Sorry... what do you mean by "character perfection" and "personality adapting"? I don't really know what you mean by either term.
fullerene is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th-September-2008, 01:43 AM   Auburn's time 29th-September-2008, 05:43 PM    #12
Auburn
is part anima
 
Auburn's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,798
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

Character perfection = the sanctification process "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your father which is in heaven is perfect" Matthew 5:48

Personality adaptation = life circumstances that cause an adaptation in personality. (i.e. Two ISTJ parents forcing an INTP child to be more productive (J) - making him INTJ)

My personality literally changed because of Christianity - in those areas which I made a conscious effort to improve on because of Biblical principles.

I always thought I was "character building" but was actually "personality balancing". I think the same happened to my friend I metioned earlier. He was not INFJ, but after being in Christianity for a while, and following it to the "T", he became a balanced INFJ. His T/F were but a few percents apart (cancelling out many of the immaturities of INFJs)
Auburn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th-September-2008, 01:48 AM   Agent Intellect's time 29th-September-2008, 08:48 PM    #13
Agent Intellect
Absurd Anti-hero.
 
Agent Intellect's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 4,116
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cryptonia View Post
focus on fantasy more than reality
fears doing the wrong thing
avoidant
anxious
somewhat easily frightened
easily offended
emotionally moody
can be wounded at the core
prone to feelings of loneliness
frequently worried
prone to intimidation
looks like the kind of traits cult leaders look for when looking for followers.
__________________
My Facebook community page:
https://www.facebook.com/TheCynicalPhilosopher
Science, philosophy, social/political issues, religion etc... all the shit INTP's are supposed to like I guess. Check it out and "like"
Agent Intellect is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th-September-2008, 01:59 AM   NoID10ts's time 29th-September-2008, 07:59 PM    #14
NoID10ts
aka Noddy
 
NoID10ts's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,510
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

Could Jesus have been ENTJ?
__________________
NoID10ts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th-September-2008, 02:21 AM   fullerene's time 29th-September-2008, 09:21 PM    #15
fullerene
Resident Member
 
fullerene's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,156
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

good observation... honestly I wasn't thinking anything along those lines when I went through that list and picked out the ones I thought contradicted the biblical ideal.

mm, in that case auburn... I think there's some crossover... but I definitely don't think all of sanctification fits into character adapting/balancing.

It's tough to judge because, like you said, the ways in which you worked were very much opposed to INTP nature. The E of preaching, the F of sensitivity, and the J of a planned existence aren't natural at all. Personally, I wouldn't equate J-ness with hard work... I've always been incredibly lazy and on/off in most of my work, but this year I found that even as a pretty set P I can work 11 hour days at college pretty easily... you just have to love and want to do what you're doing. It takes a lot of care, though, for someone to be able to rightly say "X is Christianity, Y is my culture's added stresses on it."

I already mentioned the INFJ characteristics that I don't think "fit" the biblical ideal... but at the same time, there are obviously INFJ characteristics that are good things. I haven't thought it through too much... but I suspect the same is true with other types as well. But are you "really" character-balancing or switching your type, or are you shuffling your characteristics a little bit in order to apply the "good" that comes more naturally to other types?

Take something like Thinking and Feeling, for example... caring for other peoples' feelings is not just an F trait... but T/F is a dichotomy on how you make your decisions. If it's based on trying to detatch the "idea" from every bias you can, usually through logic or other objective standards, then you're T... if you're making the judgment about an idea based on values and personal concerns, you're an F. "Caring for people" has a strong correlation to Fs... but it doesn't make you "more F" to care for them. These sites explain the meaning behind the letters pretty well, I think.

http://personalitydesk.com/blog/24/m...-introversion/
http://personalitydesk.com/blog/20/m...-vs-intuition/
http://personalitydesk.com/blog/18/m...ng-vs-feeling/
http://personalitydesk.com/blog/22/m...vs-perceiving/

if you look at that, you'll probably be able to see why the quick internet tests aren't reliable. They're not very precise because they test things that one side of the spectrum or the other "tends" to have... then by asking enough questions, figure it'll balance out. Decaf (the resident MBTI expert on this site) has said, before, that you can't change your type. You can immitate other types... but you'll never be as good at the things they're good at if you're just immitating. I attest to this, because I have two strongly J parents (ISTJ and ENTJ... basically the two types that want you to "do your duty," and I'm definitely still not a J... even with J characteristics.

so I don't know... you have to make that kind of judgment call for yourself, but I don't think you can change your type. I think I would say, instead, that the virtues the Bible idealizes transcend types. If your culture stresses INFJ virtues, then the INFJ stress your culture has would mix with the virtues that INFJs do have, to "push" you harder towards the INFJ type than the Bible actually would. At least... that's my guess. Hope it helps.
fullerene is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th-September-2008, 03:35 AM   FusionKnight's time 29th-September-2008, 09:35 PM    #16
FusionKnight
It's not my fault!
 
FusionKnight's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: MN, USA
Posts: 1,398
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

I think Jesus was definitely an I, since he was always retreating to solitary places to "recharge" after being with crowds of people all day, i.e. a boat in the middle of the sea, the wilderness, a lonely mountaintop, etc.

I would say he also seemed to be an N rather than an S since he was always cutting to the root of the issue, and seeing past what people were saying with their words and understanding what people were saying with their lives. This indicates an understanding of the world in an intuitive rather than sensory way.

He sure seemed to be T, since he was always using reason, law, and scripture to teach. He took a very intellectual approach to a lot of things, and could seem harsh or discordant with others' feelings when he was trying to reveal some truth.

As for J or P, I'd say P, though I'm conflicted. His life was certainly filled with surprise, spontaneity, and excitement! On the other hand, he had a plan, and saw it to the end, even unto death!

So, INTP, or INTJ?
FusionKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th-September-2008, 04:13 AM   Ermine's time 29th-September-2008, 09:13 PM    #17
Ermine
is watching and taking notes
 
Ermine's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: casually playing guitar in my mental arena
Posts: 2,878
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

Well, assuming he's perfect, wouldn't he be almost totally balanced out? While he retreated to solitude when he could, he also reached out to anyone who reached out to him, thousands of people at a time, sometimes. I think I could easily agree on him being an N, though I think sensing and intuition are hard to truly see in a person if you don't know them personally. Also, while he used lots of logic and recited scripture on demand, likely of a T, the phrase "and he had compassion on them..." probably occurs dozens of in the New Testament. Hard to say with P/J as well. He was pretty much homeless and lived on the charity and hospitality of his followers. I could see a J having a very hard time with such an unpredictable life. But following God's plan to the letter and to the death and beyond...
__________________
Ermine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th-September-2008, 05:01 AM   grey matters's time 29th-September-2008, 11:01 PM    #18
grey matters
The Old Grey Silly One
 
grey matters's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: where it is warm
Posts: 1,754
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

My initial assessment of Jesus is that he must have been an INTP because he pissed off the religious establishment to the point that they felt they had to crucify him. but really, I don't think I could guess his type.

About the feeling thing. I believe most modern non-denominational churches have been taken over by the feeling types. The bible, especially the New Testament, mentions the word "love" a lot. The problem is that these modern churches have misinterpreted the bible. Here is something interesting that I recently read.

"The Greeks used the noun agape and the corresponding verb agapao to discribe a more unconditional love rooted in behavior toward others without regard to their due. It is the love of deliberate choice. When Jesus speaks of love in the New testament the word agape is used, a love of behavior and choice not a love of feeling."

Now, Jesus comanded people to "love the Lord---" How can anyone command a feeling? In 1 Corinthians chapter 13 It talks about what love is (This is the "Love is patient love is kind verse"). Acording to the book it is supposed to be agape love, the love of deliberate choice. Feeling has very little to do with it. So in other words, to agape love someone you choose to be patient, kind etc.

The book mentions the word Praxis and defines it as "feelings that can follow positive behavior". In other words you agape love someone first, and the feelings may or may not come later.

What I am getting at is that so many modern churches do a lot to evoke feelings from people. They have "heartfelt worship", and little get togethers where expressing feelings is encouraged, and emotional but not very intellectual sermons (in other words sermons are dumbed down and emotioned up). the purpose for this is so that the people will then be able to love because these feelings. It is easy to be patient with someone you love.

So what is the result of this? The result is that church is not a very welcoming place for logical objective thinkers and also less welcoming for men. The F function is the only function with a gender bias towards females acording to a book I read. It also said that it is unknown weather the cause of this is because of nature or nurture (in our society men are encouraged to not express their feelings). The result, acording to the book, is that men don't usually develop their f function well.

Another result, and this is just my opinion, is that there is no one to question the teachings, direction and whatnot of the church because the thinking types (like INTP's) have all left and become agnostics! Those who stay are not listened to. After all how can an anyone be a good christain if he or she isn't oozing with emotion? Take this latter bit as you will it is just my opinion.

There is a place in the church for INTP's and all objectie logical thinkers, you just have to make that space. No one will make it for you.
grey matters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th-September-2008, 05:01 AM   Auburn's time 29th-September-2008, 09:01 PM    #19
Auburn
is part anima
 
Auburn's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,798
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cryptonia
Decaf (the resident MBTI expert on this site) has said, before, that you can't change your type...
... you have to make that kind of judgment call for yourself, but I don't think you can change your type.
Hmmm, I'd like to talk to Decaf in regards to this. I agree that perhaps one cannot change his/her type by simply "wanting to" change it. However, since personality preferences still are just that, "preferences", I can still see how one can change their preference with the course of time.

My brother is a living example of this. I, and my entire family, can testify that until he was 11 or so, he was very extroverted, playful, outgoing, sentimental, and caring. It's hard to tell, but I believe he was ENFP. Then after some family tragedy his outlook on life changed and he became INTJ. And he's a solid INTJ in all aspects, including the primary, axillary, tertiary, and inferior functions. So perhaps one cannot "will" for their preference to change, but by extreme circumstances, one's personality preferences can adapt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cryptonia
I have two strongly J parents (ISTJ and ENTJ... basically the two types that want you to "do your duty," and I'm definitely still not a J... even with J characteristics.
In your case, you resisted the J of you parents - as an INTP will do when presented with something they logically disagree with. I'm my case, I welcomed and saw the need for more J, and made effort in that direction. So I see that it could go both ways - based on how they are presented, circumstances can develop or hinder a certain function from developing.
Auburn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th-September-2008, 05:35 AM   Auburn's time 29th-September-2008, 09:35 PM    #20
Auburn
is part anima
 
Auburn's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,798
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FusionKnight View Post
I think Jesus was definitely an I, since he was always retreating to solitary places to "recharge" after being with crowds of people all day, i.e. a boat in the middle of the sea, the wilderness, a lonely mountaintop, etc.

I would say he also seemed to be an N rather than an S since he was always cutting to the root of the issue, and seeing past what people were saying with their words and understanding what people were saying with their lives. This indicates an understanding of the world in an intuitive rather than sensory way.

He sure seemed to be T, since he was always using reason, law, and scripture to teach. He took a very intellectual approach to a lot of things, and could seem harsh or discordant with others' feelings when he was trying to reveal some truth.

As for J or P, I'd say P, though I'm conflicted. His life was certainly filled with surprise, spontaneity, and excitement! On the other hand, he had a plan, and saw it to the end, even unto death!

So, INTP, or INTJ?
I definitely see how he was an Introvert [albeit very skilled with extroversion as well]

iNtuitive is a given, he could read people like nobody else! His focus was not in his immediate physical surroundings but in more subtle realities surrounding him (demons, angels, the hearts of men).

Now for Thinking Judgment and Feeling Judgment - I believe he was balanced here because he equally valued Justice and Mercy. He was direct with calling out sins (T), but also with tears in his eyes. His heart never ceased to sympathize with man (F).

In trems of "duty fulfillment" he was definitely a J. His entire life was based on active ministry for others. True, he does not meet the J requirements for set agendas, and plans - which I believe was because of his faith in His Father's plan - but he does meet the J criteria when it comes to zeal and drive... a drive that drove him to the cross.

I N T/F J ....that's my guess...
Auburn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th-September-2008, 08:35 AM   Decaf's time 30th-September-2008, 12:35 AM    #21
Decaf
Professional Amateur
 
Decaf's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Posts: 2,159
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auburn View Post
Hmmm, I'd like to talk to Decaf in regards to this. I agree that perhaps one cannot change his/her type by simply "wanting to" change it. However, since personality preferences still are just that, "preferences", I can still see how one can change their preference with the course of time.
--My Theory--
By Decaf

(I'm just apologizing ahead of time for my tone of certainty in the following)

Yes, they are preferences, but not of the conscience mind. These are preferences of the unconscious mind. To understand things such as language, mathematics or even basic motor skills, the brain needs to develop a way of dealing with those things. Of linking them together. That's where the preferences come from. Once you've learned your first language it has been encoded, so to speak, in your brain by the building of neural pathways in a structure that becomes the individuals dominant function. As that function becomes unsuitably diverse the brain creates a second layer, like an onion

The first area is naturally your area of confidence because it represents the most fundamental and easiest way you think. The second area if you area of creativity because it does the job of branching out into the rest of the brain. The third and fourth are only that because the brain strongly prefers the dominant two functions in situations where the inferior two could also be used and so the individual has poor development of them and poor motivation to use them. That's why the opposite of our creativity, is our comfort and the opposite of our confidence is our helplessness.


OK, so to address the question directly, what happens when we try to change our preferences? First of all, most people don't think on that level. It takes a certain degree of self-knowledge to understand why we do what we do. Even then most self-aware people don't tend to think of their preferences as negatively as their behaviors. ITPs dislike that they are unmotivated to apply themselves into making a product, but would not prefer to be able to do so if it meant no longer obsessing about the precision of their work.

That being said, when someone engages extensively in behaviors that are not part of their base preferences they will get better at them. They'll start to require less effort, but its like a pair of shoes. They can get worn in and seem like the most comfortable thing in the world, but they're not your feet. Most people who have been subjected to a lifetime of this kind of pretend are surprised when they kick their shoes off and find the blood returning to their toes.

We all pretend some of the time (who would hire a P for a 9 to 5 job? yet so many make their living that way). You can do it in a healthy way where you make sure you're accepting your psychological needs and taking care of yourself even while filling the shoes of an imaginary you. You can also do it in an unhealthy way where you throw the baby out with the bath water and pretend you were never that way to begin with. Personally, I'm not the least bit surprised at the ever increasing demand for therapy.


FINAL NOTE: I wrote this over the course of a couple hours, but without proof reading it. Frankly I just can't dig up the motivation to check the details, so... sorry if it doesn't make sense
__________________
"I want freedom for the full expression of my personality."
- Mahatma Gandhi
Decaf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th-September-2008, 08:37 AM   Decaf's time 30th-September-2008, 12:37 AM    #22
Decaf
Professional Amateur
 
Decaf's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Portland, OR, USA
Posts: 2,159
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

Oh, also I'd like to add that my partner is an INFJ and is a staunch atheist. I don't think its spirituality that is the problem for them as much as feeling like once they commit to a set of values, they are unwilling to change.

She also picked up some feminist values growing up that she admits came from her sister. She has run with those beliefs ever since even after her sister moved on to other priorities.
__________________
"I want freedom for the full expression of my personality."
- Mahatma Gandhi
Decaf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th-September-2008, 12:59 PM   Agent Intellect's time 30th-September-2008, 07:59 AM    #23
Agent Intellect
Absurd Anti-hero.
 
Agent Intellect's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 4,116
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

i would have to go with Jesus being INTJ. he certainly seemed to have the motivation to get things done (which, if he was anything like my INTP ass, he would have either never gotten around to it or would have just had his disciples do all the work). i agree about I and N because of reasons already stated. T and F is a difficult one, as Jesus was always portrayed and somebody who really empathised with the poor, and judging by how many libertarians are on this board, i'd say most INTP don't really care all that much for the poor (Jesus strikes me as a socialist or at least a liberal democrat). so maybe just an INTJ with a very mature F trait or vise versa?
__________________
My Facebook community page:
https://www.facebook.com/TheCynicalPhilosopher
Science, philosophy, social/political issues, religion etc... all the shit INTP's are supposed to like I guess. Check it out and "like"
Agent Intellect is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th-September-2008, 01:43 PM   FusionKnight's time 30th-September-2008, 07:43 AM    #24
FusionKnight
It's not my fault!
 
FusionKnight's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: MN, USA
Posts: 1,398
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

I'm amazed that you think socialists and liberal democrats care for the poor... people like Mao, Kim Jong Il, Stalin...

But that's another thread... sorry!
FusionKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th-September-2008, 02:29 PM   Jennywocky's time 30th-September-2008, 09:29 AM    #25
Jennywocky
Kratunkulous schnunk
 
Jennywocky's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Singularity of Consciousness and Space
Posts: 6,247
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auburn View Post
The character that the Bible teaches must be attained is that of the INFJs personality. By asking a reform of character, it is actually asking for a change from one type to another type.

I disagree with this strongly, at least if we're talking simply "Fruit of the Spirit" and what it means to be an actualized person.

There are also a number of books out exploring religious (including Christian) faith from the perspective of all the MBTI types.

I do agree with you in the sense that there are behaviors that some churches insist are "part of Christianity" that actually are not... and those behaviors have become dominant because the Church has been dominated by particular MBTI types in different periods of history.



Quote:
Upon my departure form Christianity, my closest ministry friend, a very devout Christian, came to me in hopes of changing my mind. I tried to explain to him my stance by logic, but he wasn't getting what I was saying. I explained to him that I believed Christianity was taylored to the INFJs, just as philosophy to the INTPs and Music to the ISTP. I made him take the test and he indeed came out INFJ.

I don't think Christianity is tailored to INFJs at all. (In fact, I often feel like the few INFJs I know are the ones with the "best handle" on the faith, but it's always more "mystical.")

The current "in vogue" version that I've had to rub elbows with (mostly the evangelical branches) are very SJ, with some SP.

The N's, unfortunately (and especially NTs), are few and far between. Most (especially NFs) probably end up veering towards mysticism, the Emerging Church, or Pentacostalism or something similar. Every -N- I run into in the evangelical circles is there mostly because they don't have options, but they've learned when to keep their mouths shut and how to influence people indirectly.

I will say I really empathize with your story, I remember going through similar things where I felt the faith was requiring certain things of me that I could not give... because even if I did give it, it never was 'right' and was always a horrible fight that perseverance could not remedy. I was being forced into a role that I could not play, under the guise of it being "Christian."

There was a branch of the Church of Christ, the International Church of Christ (ICC), which essentially became cult-like, and psychologists actually studied it and determined people were being forced to behave like ESFJs; interestingly, that was the MBTI type of the national leader, Kip. We actually had friends who joined and it was frustrating and terrifying to deal with, to see them behave in ways that were not naturally them and ignore their own giftings.

... as far as typing Jesus, I'm just not going to go there. If there is any topic I hate on MBTI forums, it's arguments over the typing of (1) Jesus, (2) Hitler, or (3) George W. Bush. Ugh.
__________________
"I could never again be an angel … innocence, once lost, can never be regained." ~ Seasons of Mist

"It has always been the perogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a half-wit, and the emperor remains an emperor." ~ The Kindly Ones
Jennywocky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th-September-2008, 03:06 PM   FusionKnight's time 30th-September-2008, 09:06 AM    #26
FusionKnight
It's not my fault!
 
FusionKnight's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: MN, USA
Posts: 1,398
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

Ha! Typing historical figures is merely a tongue-in-cheek game...
FusionKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th-September-2008, 04:46 PM   Jennywocky's time 30th-September-2008, 11:46 AM    #27
Jennywocky
Kratunkulous schnunk
 
Jennywocky's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Singularity of Consciousness and Space
Posts: 6,247
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FusionKnight View Post
Ha! Typing historical figures is merely a tongue-in-cheek game...
i know, i know... but some people take it seriously!

Hey... let's type Tom and Jerry!
__________________
"I could never again be an angel … innocence, once lost, can never be regained." ~ Seasons of Mist

"It has always been the perogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a half-wit, and the emperor remains an emperor." ~ The Kindly Ones
Jennywocky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th-September-2008, 04:49 PM   FusionKnight's time 30th-September-2008, 10:49 AM    #28
FusionKnight
It's not my fault!
 
FusionKnight's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: MN, USA
Posts: 1,398
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

How about Ben and Jerry?
FusionKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th-September-2008, 04:52 PM   Jennywocky's time 30th-September-2008, 11:52 AM    #29
Jennywocky
Kratunkulous schnunk
 
Jennywocky's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Singularity of Consciousness and Space
Posts: 6,247
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FusionKnight View Post
How about Ben and Jerry?
How about Elaine and Jerry?
__________________
"I could never again be an angel … innocence, once lost, can never be regained." ~ Seasons of Mist

"It has always been the perogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a half-wit, and the emperor remains an emperor." ~ The Kindly Ones
Jennywocky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th-September-2008, 08:47 PM   Agent Intellect's time 30th-September-2008, 03:48 PM    #30
Agent Intellect
Absurd Anti-hero.
 
Agent Intellect's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 4,116
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FusionKnight View Post
I'm amazed that you think socialists and liberal democrats care for the poor... people like Mao, Kim Jong Il, Stalin...

But that's another thread... sorry!
they were communists, weren't they? and i'm thinking more along the lines of American socialists/democrats, you know, the people that want to tax the rich and working class so they can give money out as welfare/ socialized medical care and so forth.
__________________
My Facebook community page:
https://www.facebook.com/TheCynicalPhilosopher
Science, philosophy, social/political issues, religion etc... all the shit INTP's are supposed to like I guess. Check it out and "like"
Agent Intellect is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th-September-2008, 09:01 PM   Jordan~'s time 30th-September-2008, 09:01 PM    #31
Jordan~
Resident Member
 
Jordan~'s Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Posts: 1,967
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

Not even "communists"; they pretend(ed) to be.
__________________
"Sooner or later you'll bury your teeth"

- Joanna Newsom, Monkey & Bear


Jordan~ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th-September-2008, 10:12 PM   fullerene's time 30th-September-2008, 05:12 PM    #32
fullerene
Resident Member
 
fullerene's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,156
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

someone should open that debate thread... I've heard that capitalism has a sort of "invisible heart" that makes it far better for poor people than communism or socialism, as if their appearances were the opposite of their functions. I don't know enough about economics to actually add to it, but I'd like to see it argued.

this got so off topic, didn't it? Sorry auburn!
fullerene is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th-September-2008, 11:21 PM   Ermine's time 30th-September-2008, 04:21 PM    #33
Ermine
is watching and taking notes
 
Ermine's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: casually playing guitar in my mental arena
Posts: 2,878
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

Ok, referring to my last post, I don't really see how discussing the type of Jesus will get us anywhere. There's a huge difference between the mind of a church founder and a church follower. I thought we were focusing on the ideal type of a religious follower.

However, all christian churches would agree that the goal is to be Christ-like...
__________________
Ermine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st-October-2008, 12:59 AM   Auburn's time 30th-September-2008, 04:59 PM    #34
Auburn
is part anima
 
Auburn's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,798
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

Exactly! And so, to some extent, when the Bible calls us to be like Christ in all, it implies that we have the personality of Christ.

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus" - Philippians 2:5

(i know I'm about to get ambushed for saying that, but please just gimme a sec to elaborate first! I'm working on the post right now... It's kinda long...)
Auburn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st-October-2008, 01:08 AM   Agent Intellect's time 30th-September-2008, 08:08 PM    #35
Agent Intellect
Absurd Anti-hero.
 
Agent Intellect's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 4,116
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

does having a God complex count as being like Jesus?
__________________
My Facebook community page:
https://www.facebook.com/TheCynicalPhilosopher
Science, philosophy, social/political issues, religion etc... all the shit INTP's are supposed to like I guess. Check it out and "like"
Agent Intellect is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st-October-2008, 01:10 AM   Auburn's time 30th-September-2008, 05:10 PM    #36
Auburn
is part anima
 
Auburn's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,798
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

Ok, I'm going to play "devil's advocate" here for a sec - just to hopefully explain what I mean more clearly.

Let's assume for a moment that Christianity is not true. Thus we could conclude that there's no "Holy Spirit/Active Force" which works within man to reform his way of life/character. And therefore, any reform of character the Christians do experience is not the working of a Supernatural Power.

So let's assume that it is by following the Bible principles, as a set of systematic adaptations to one's way of life, that one can reform his ways; that by simply applying the outlined precepts in the Bible, one can be changed. - nothing supernatural

It would require much effort to make this change because the precepts outlined in the Bible don't typically come natural to us. Also, they are difficult for us to adapt because many of the precepts outlined in the Bible ask us to do things which are not natural to our personality. For example:

Here are some things the Bible teaches us to do which may be challenging to your nature (/personality).

Ecclesiastes 9:10 - - Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might (J)

1 Peter 1:22 - - - - - have...love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart (F)

Proverbs 21:23 - - - He who guards his mouth and his tongue keeps himself from calamity (I)

Matthew 1:35 - - - - he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed. (I)

1 Samuel 16:7 - - - man looks on the outward... but the LORD looks on the heart. (NF)

Matthew 5:8 - - - - - Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. (F)

Matthew 5:9 - - - - - Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. (FJ)

John 1:17 - - - - - - - grace (F) and truth (T) came through Jesus Christ.

Proverbs 3:3 - - - - - Let not mercy (F) and truth (T) forsake thee…

Exodus 34:6 - - - - - “The Lord, the...compassionate...abounding in love (F)

Exodus 34:7 - - - - - -Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished (T)


James 2:10 - - - - - - whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. (T)

[ Now, I know this by no means is this a perfect sample to represent all the verses in the Bible. All I'm saying is that from my own extensive evaluation of the Bible's principles, I very much see a greater preference to solemnity (I), heeding impressions (N), a balance between mercy (F) and truth (T), and zealously in duty (J) - in it's verses]

I'm not saying that to be INFJ is to automatically be Christian, but that the "framework" of an INFJ is that which is encouraged by Christianity. All the "meat" must still be added to it, of course.

Now let's assume that the reason why the “Christian walk” is such a struggle is because in reality it is the struggle of trying to put on the “personality shoes” of another type.

It is very difficult to change personality, if at all possible, hence it is very difficult to follow Christianity to the letter of the word - if at all possible.

In conclusion: (of the assumption, of course)

Christianity, were it actually false, can be explained as being able to change the lives of people by the reformation of personality. Much (no all), of what it calls reformation of character, would actually be adaptation to another presonality preference.

My purpose for writing this theory is not to persuade/convert anyone, as if my words were facts, not, but simply to present to you a speculation that I've had. I moreso would like to know if any of this makes sense to anyone else. Please point out which parts make sense to you and which ones need refining. I am, have been since I can remember, simply an honest soul searching for the honest truth.

I find this to be a great place to do just that.
Auburn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st-October-2008, 01:10 AM   NoID10ts's time 30th-September-2008, 07:10 PM    #37
NoID10ts
aka Noddy
 
NoID10ts's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,510
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

Let's type Lucifer! I think he must be INTP. Only an INTP would find fault with God's logic to his face!
__________________
NoID10ts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st-October-2008, 02:09 AM   Ermine's time 30th-September-2008, 07:09 PM    #38
Ermine
is watching and taking notes
 
Ermine's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: casually playing guitar in my mental arena
Posts: 2,878
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoID10ts View Post
Let's type Lucifer! I think he must be INTP. Only an INTP would find fault with God's logic to his face!
I could see any NT doing that, and anyone for that matter if they felt strongly enough about what they are against.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auburn
So let's assume that it is by following the Bible principles, as a set of systematic adaptations to one's way of life, that one can reform his ways; that by simply applying the outlined precepts in the Bible, one can be changed. - nothing supernatural

It would require much effort to make this change because the precepts outlined in the Bible don't typically come natural to us. Also, they are difficult for us to adapt because many of the precepts outlined in the Bible ask us to do things which are not natural to our personality. For example:

Here are some things the Bible teaches us to do which may be challenging to your nature (/personality).

Ecclesiastes 9:10 - - Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might (J)

1 Peter 1:22 - - - - - have...love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart (F)

Proverbs 21:23 - - - He who guards his mouth and his tongue keeps himself from calamity (I)

Matthew 1:35 - - - - he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed. (I)

1 Samuel 16:7 - - - man looks on the outward... but the LORD looks on the heart. (NF)

Matthew 5:8 - - - - - Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. (F)

Matthew 5:9 - - - - - Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. (FJ)

John 1:17 - - - - - - - grace (F) and truth (T) came through Jesus Christ.

Proverbs 3:3 - - - - - Let not mercy (F) and truth (T) forsake thee…

Exodus 34:6 - - - - - “The Lord, the...compassionate...abounding in love (F)

Exodus 34:7 - - - - - -Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished (T)

James 2:10 - - - - - - whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. (T)

I see where you're going, but there's also plenty of verses that accept all types of people as they're instrumental to creating a well balanced group. There's also E-supporting scriptures that counter the I-supported scriptures. That goes for all the other functions.
__________________
Ermine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st-October-2008, 02:45 AM   FusionKnight's time 30th-September-2008, 08:45 PM    #39
FusionKnight
It's not my fault!
 
FusionKnight's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: MN, USA
Posts: 1,398
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

I think a lot of your F exemplars aren't really as clear-cut as you present. Love, compassion, mercy, aren't just F actions, rather can be expressed by any combination of traits. Sure, it will look different in many cases, but that doesn't make it something fundamentally different or incompatible.

Love can be tough, tender, stoic, gushy, loyal, fun, silly, intimate, quiet, public, etc. It spans the traits.
FusionKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st-October-2008, 02:52 AM   Auburn's time 30th-September-2008, 06:52 PM    #40
Auburn
is part anima
 
Auburn's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,798
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FusionKnight View Post
I think a lot of your F exemplars aren't really as clear-cut as you present. Love, compassion, mercy, aren't just F actions, rather can be expressed by any combination of traits. Sure, it will look different in many cases, but that doesn't make it something fundamentally different or incompatible.

Love can be tough, tender, stoic, gushy, loyal, fun, silly, intimate, quiet, public, etc. It spans the traits.
^^; yeah...
Auburn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st-October-2008, 03:01 AM   Auburn's time 30th-September-2008, 07:01 PM    #41
Auburn
is part anima
 
Auburn's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,798
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernando_the_weasel
I see where you're going, but there's also plenty of verses that accept all types of people as they're instrumental to creating a well balanced group. There's also E-supporting scriptures that counter the I-supported scriptures. That goes for all the other functions.
yeah...

There's some of everything. I guess what I'm saying is from my own research, which is approx. three years of study, not the greatest amount, I saw that there was a trend in the doctrines and verses of the Bible to uphold certain MBTI preference over others. But yes, I've seen all 8 traits encouraged in the Bible.

Does anyone else suspect a leaning towards certain functions? or am I the only one...:(

EDIT: I just took the MBTI again, and I'm much more F than I thought!!! Is that bad?
Auburn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st-October-2008, 05:36 AM   Calamedes's time 1st-October-2008, 07:36 AM    #42
Calamedes
Member
 
Calamedes's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Ra'anana, Israel
Posts: 139
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

HAHAHA there is nothing bad about any of the traits :P it's like classes in an RPG- they all have their strengths and weaknesses.

back to the topic, even in Judaism do you see all 8 traits. I would totally start quoting, except those of you Bible-savvy already see them from the Tanach (Old Testament, I'll explain the acronym if anybody's interested)
Calamedes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st-October-2008, 06:10 AM   Auburn's time 30th-September-2008, 10:10 PM    #43
Auburn
is part anima
 
Auburn's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,798
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

LOL! Well, yeah, I guess there's nothing wrong with it... I just don't want to end up saying something irrational based of my feeling judgment. Maybe, just maybe, feeling judgment might not be the best for this forum - seeing how most discussion is logic based. Throwing in personal opinion can be an obstacle to pure reasoning. (which, actually, is what I've been kinda doing this whole thread! Ayayai!)

And yes, please do explain this acronym
Auburn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st-October-2008, 06:31 AM   Calamedes's time 1st-October-2008, 08:31 AM    #44
Calamedes
Member
 
Calamedes's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Ra'anana, Israel
Posts: 139
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

Alright

Tanach is, like I said, an acronym. ת (t) for Torah, נ (n) for Nevi'im, and כ (c/ ch) for Ketuvim. Torah means "Teachings" and is used to describe the first 5 books or the "5 books of Moses" (Genesis- Deut... can't spell it :P). Nevi'im means "Prophets" and is from Joshua through the 12 lesser Prophets. Ketuvim means "Writings" and is everything else, up until Chronicles, I think.

It's been a LONG time since I studied the Tanach. Though I definitely find the stories interesting to dig through (Jonah is my favorite. I've written many midrashim on him ), I can't remember for the life of me any of the names of the books, let alone the order.
Calamedes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st-October-2008, 12:19 PM   Agent Intellect's time 1st-October-2008, 07:19 AM    #45
Agent Intellect
Absurd Anti-hero.
 
Agent Intellect's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 4,116
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auburn View Post
LOL! Well, yeah, I guess there's nothing wrong with it... I just don't want to end up saying something irrational based of my feeling judgment. Maybe, just maybe, feeling judgment might not be the best for this forum - seeing how most discussion is logic based. Throwing in personal opinion can be an obstacle to pure reasoning. (which, actually, is what I've been kinda doing this whole thread! Ayayai!)
just reading that makes me think that you are an INTP.
__________________
My Facebook community page:
https://www.facebook.com/TheCynicalPhilosopher
Science, philosophy, social/political issues, religion etc... all the shit INTP's are supposed to like I guess. Check it out and "like"
Agent Intellect is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd-October-2008, 02:47 PM   Calamedes's time 2nd-October-2008, 04:47 PM    #46
Calamedes
Member
 
Calamedes's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Ra'anana, Israel
Posts: 139
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

as sick as this may sound, I'm actually enjoying her conflict in perceptiveness: is she T or is she F? Only time will tell...

duh duh dunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn


joking aside, I honestly do think that you're a T, Auburn. Along with the fact that I trust AI's opinion I also went through your posts and found that they're logical with your thinking clear and pure of any emotion outside joy from the mere fact that we're on the topic of religion. I vote well done

oh, and for the record, it doesn't matter what a test says. Only you decide who you are and how you think. The way I see it, don't worry about it. It's not like we're going to shun you for having some F in you... correction: I won't shun you for it :P

Last edited by Calamedes; 2nd-October-2008 at 02:48 PM. Reason: symantic error... can't stand those. can't believe I missed it!
Calamedes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd-October-2008, 07:56 PM   Auburn's time 2nd-October-2008, 11:56 AM    #47
Auburn
is part anima
 
Auburn's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,798
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calamedes View Post
as sick as this may sound, I'm actually enjoying her conflict in perceptiveness: is she T or is she F? Only time will tell...

duh duh dunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
...wait... where you referring to me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calamedes
joking aside, I honestly do think that you're a T, Auburn. Along with the fact that I trust AI's opinion I also went through your posts and found that they're logical with your thinking clear and pure of any emotion outside joy from the mere fact that we're on the topic of religion. I vote well done

oh, and for the record, it doesn't matter what a test says. Only you decide who you are and how you think. The way I see it, don't worry about it. It's not like we're going to shun you for having some F in you... correction: I won't shun you for it :P
Thanx. That makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside . *sarcasm*

But, in all honestly, I do appreciate it
Auburn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th-October-2008, 06:50 PM   grey matters's time 4th-October-2008, 12:50 PM    #48
grey matters
The Old Grey Silly One
 
grey matters's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: where it is warm
Posts: 1,754
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

Be careful about verses in the bible that appear to cater to various personality types. There is a lot of misinterpretation of the bible due to poor translation. Many of the verses using the word love do not refer to the word love as a feeling but the word love as a conscience choice.

You can choose to love (action) those people you don't have a feeling of love for. For example when my daughter goofs around and takes 20 minutes instead of 2 to brush her teeth and makes me late for work I don't feel a lot of love for her at that point in time but I can choose to love her through my action, by being patient, kind, gentle, and of self control. You don't need a feeling to do this.

Lets take forgiveness. Most people think this is a feeling but someone defined forgiveness as " the choice to live with the consequences of other people's sin". And someone else defined it as "choosing to let someone off the hook." This is not a feeling, it is an action.

I don't think you have to be the MBTI personality of Christ in order to be Christ like or a Christian. Again, this is probably a misinterpretation. I haven't gone and checked this using a greek translation but I would venture to say that to be a christian means doing things like choosing to love (action) or forgive (action) dispite feelings.

Jennwocky you mentioned something about MBTI and christianity. This sounds interesting. I don't know if it would go along with what I believe but I am interested in hearing another viewpoint. Do you remember what the name of the book was and who authored it?
grey matters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th-October-2008, 02:28 AM   Taylored's time 4th-October-2008, 09:28 PM    #49
Taylored
Member
 
Taylored's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Atlanta, GA - in route to Mesa, AZ
Posts: 35
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

I have a hard time understanding faith. I do understand how people believe in God/a creator, but having total devotion to a specific religion is beyond me.

I too grew up in a Seventh-Day Adventist Church.
Taylored is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th-October-2008, 02:36 AM   Ermine's time 4th-October-2008, 07:36 PM    #50
Ermine
is watching and taking notes
 
Ermine's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: casually playing guitar in my mental arena
Posts: 2,878
Default Re: Religion - Bias to INFJs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by grey matters View Post

I don't think you have to be the MBTI personality of Christ in order to be Christ like or a Christian. Again, this is probably a misinterpretation. I haven't gone and checked this using a greek translation but I would venture to say that to be a christian means doing things like choosing to love (action) or forgive (action) dispite feelings.
it?
It probably wouldn't be optimal to have the MBTI type of Jesus anyway. Like I said, there's a huge difference between a church founder and a church follower. Though Jesus had the intentions of bringing the Jews to a higher level of devotion and understanding, the pharisees and sadducees, the church leaders, still thought of Christ as a blasphemous rebel. In order to found a new church, you kind of have to have to be rebellious, in a way. That isn't encouraged at all in a church follower.
__________________
Ermine is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What are INFJs bad at? cheese MBTI & Typology Archive 88 21st-July-2014 12:28 PM
Questions about INFJs Escrue MBTI & Typology Archive 14 5th-June-2010 04:22 AM
the certainty bias cuterebra Old Philosophy & Faith Subforum Archive 8 8th-December-2009 08:59 PM
Bias in the Media? Razare Science & Technology Archive 21 24th-June-2009 02:15 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:17 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Template-Modifications by TMS



no new posts