Achilles heel of this forum

[Rualani]

The brief time I've been engaged with the forums, I've noticed a lot of practical advice for helping INTPs succeed. The pace at which threads seem to come and go with the random probing style that I see, seems to bury everything under a pile of new ideas. I haven't engaged with many forums, so it may be that this is just typical.

It makes me think of a broader discussion about the process of implementing some of these great ideas. I just... don't know how I feel about all these interesting conversations and ideas sinking into the void. *shrugs*

The silly thing is, that a lot of the advice speaks to this problem in the INTP community.

 

[Tannhauser]

By broader discussion, do you mean simply longer discussion? You might have an interesting point, but it is phrased in a slightly too abstract way to see what it actually is.

 

[Dalyth]

Are you referring to threads being buried? Or threads containing too many ideas for one particular conversation?

If the former, than I think that you could benefit from using the search function to find what it is you're looking for... or perhaps to stumble upon something new based on a general search. Also, it may be helpful to bookmark some threads of interest. If your concern is the fact that buried threads no longer get replies when you feel there is still more discussion to be had, then you could *bump* the thread or provide those avenues for discussion yourself.

If the latter, I think that's up to the moderators and I ... think ... they may be doing a good job of it. I haven't been paying loads of attention so maybe I'm off there.

One thing this forum actually really seems to excel in is organisation, in my opinion. Categories, archives, and private areas... They seem to have an adequate place for any type of conversation that one might want to make.

I can't say I know what you mean by a broader implementation of the ideas, as you're not being terribly specific. Do you have any examples?

 

[QuickTwist]

The brief time I've been engaged with the forums, I've noticed a lot of practical advice for helping INTPs succeed. The pace at which threads seem to come and go with the random probing style that I see, seems to bury everything under a pile of new ideas. I haven't engaged with many forums, so it may be that this is just typical.

It makes me think of a broader discussion about the process of implementing some of these great ideas. I just... don't know how I feel about all these interesting conversations and ideas sinking into the void. *shrugs*

The silly thing is, that a lot of the advice speaks to this problem in the INTP community.

Can I attempt to interpret? (going to anyways)

I think in part what Rualani is seeing is that this forum is highly isolated and is very much geared toward a particular kind of thinker. In Jungian terms, the Ti is highly isolating this forum while the Ne can't make up its mind on what to discuss, at what length and to what ends. I think they also hint that although there are a variety of topics discussed, it seems some ideas barely see the light of day while others gain an enormous amount of weight dedicated to them. You can't blame the forum for that though. Go anywhere else in a corner of the internet and you will find the same thing. There is also a strong point that they are making in saying that the individuals are very much thinkers over doers - which is completely fine, I have no problem with that whatsoever.

 

[nanook]

Practical advice? Implementing Ideas? Well, it's not an EJ or ISTP (Se) forum and the few members who can shed insight on how to implement something in real life would probably be overworked, when those who overcome their shame and ask for advice would come again and again, to discuss what progress they make in implementing ...

Generally speaking, it's a failure to maintain extroverted energy. I don't even have any of that to begin with. I'm sometimes in a group where extroverted energy (practical advice on how to change a life situation, from ISFJ and ENTP) tends to get the upper hand (over discussion of subjective thought, feeling or perception = introversion) and my mind shuts down from being overwhelmed with this alien dimension (edit: the dimension of extroversion).

I don't think the problem is that Ne is too unfocussed, Ne is focused on real life, on process, which isn't shared between internet users of course, so it's hard to share the focus, but it's focused on achieving some"thing". We may not have enough Ne. What's not focused on "things" or "the reality of progress", to put it in intuitive words, is introversion.

 

[QuickTwist]

and my mind shuts down from being overwhelmed with this alien dimension.

I can't say I am not surprised to hear that come from nanook. I don't even know how to take that honestly. You learn something about people once in awhile I guess.

 

[Jennywocky]

For those who are confused, he specifically says "the process of implementing some of these great ideas" is what is being lost.

we're good at creating or shifting frameworks by which we can understand a situation more clearly, but we're not so hot at spinning our new insightful way of seeing things into a practical list of implementable steps. IOW, how do we get from point A to point B? Seeing the truth of a situation is one thing; using that insight to change your life is a different matter.

... at least, that's how I read it.

 

[nanook]

i don't get it, quicktwist. what's surprising about me being overwhelmed by concerns with real life changes? such as how to get a job, how to get respect from coworkers, how to organize a party. i have a postraumatic urge to vomit when i think about looking up a number in the yellow pages.

 

[QuickTwist]

i don't get it, quicktwist. what's surprising about me being overwhelmed by concerns with real life changes? such as how to get a job, how to get respect from coworkers, how to organize a party. i have a postraumatic urge to vomit when i think about looking up a number in the yellow pages.

Errr... I apologize. That is not what I was trying to say about you at all. Its my fault, I misunderstood. I took the wording out of context to mean something completely different that what you intended... I think

I'll just excuse myself out of this thread.

 

[Yellow]

I think the way our threads come and go is fun. I mean, I guess we can combine threads of similar topics and we'd have only like 100 threads, but we take things in weird directions, so it would end up being more like 100 severely derailed threads that each cover every topic imaginable.

 

[Rualani]

@ all
I'm fine with the threads covering a wide range of topics like some deranged bird with no sense of direction. I find that fun as well. It's just I see these gems of advice, in the madness, that could be broadly applied to a life and I'm just waiting for them to... cease to exist when a new direction is picked.

@Dalyth
I think you are hitting the nail on the head with categories, archives, and private threads. I'm still a forum noob, so I think my ability to organize the gems I see for later use is lacking. I typically have this trouble with online browsing in general. I guess archival and tracking were the terms I was gearing towards. Never really thought about bookmarking a thread... @.@ HOW TO INTERNET!



@those concerned that this critique is against the very personality this forum is representing
Naw, you all have great ideas. I was just concerned that the great ones were getting lost in the madness . The burden is on me to make use of it and I'm pretty sure that's the right perspective. Actually, no, I have no fucking clue, but it makes me sound responsible.

@Private Reflections
Failed to communicate on a forum via text with my people. Now I knew who's to blame O.o

 

[Urakro]

It's an odd thing that people will read them, nod their head and just forget. Or did they?

Like food, it first needs to be chewed, swallowed, make it's way down the oesophagus and into the stomach. Then it gets broken down into the nutrients which enter the body. Finally, little by little, the nutrients get used.

I'm sure people read this stuff, nod and then go somewhere else. If read, it got in there, but it'll take some time to digest. It has to get broken down and interact with all the pre-existing conceptions. Some bits get stored for later, some go to waste, and other bits are trialled and erred in real life. Slowly, it'll get there.

Then the reader will come back months later with this really cool new discovery.

 

[Cheeseumpuffs]

It's just I see these gems of advice, in the madness, that could be broadly applied to a life and I'm just waiting for them to... cease to exist when a new direction is picked.

Isn't that kind of how life works? Problems arise. Solutions are thought of. And then, as if on a whim, new aspects appear and change your situation completely. New directions occur every second, and clinging to one piece of advice won't help with new directions.

The way I see it, every piece of good advice isn't an algorithm for perfect success, but rather something useful to keep in mind. And the more advice/information you store in your mind and the more varied it is, then you have a better idea of the full picture when presented with different situations and perspectives.

Sure, it's a shame that sometimes good ideas are buried. But they're almost always buried by other ideas that are completely new and just as valuable, in their own way.

The burden is on me to make use of it and I'm pretty sure that's the right perspective.

Something like this, yeah. A lot of advice and its potential usefulness is subject to the person in need of it and the situation they find themselves in. It's best to just absorb it as best you can, but not necessarily dwell on it.

I guess what I'm saying, now that I've forgotten most of the context of the thread, is you should make your own mental roadmap (of life, that is). Grab the signs that help you most. The ones that point you in the right direction. Grab all of them. Put them on your map. You might not need all of them, but the "madness" of those unnecessary ones provides context for the necessary.

Life and existence as a whole is a vibrant, mutating beast. You have to let it breathe, man.

Spoiler

this all made sense in my head, but upon rereading it I feel I may have drifted a little. I think I'm trying to say similar things to Yellow and Urakro, but I can't be sure. I like that the forum is chaotic, as far as the consistency of its content. The "100 severely derailed threads" that Yellow mentions are, in my opinion, more accurate representations of reality than any linear A->B->C thread ever could be. The world is chaotic. Every little thing is capable of spawning an infinite number of ideas and consequences and possibilities. Embrace it, man. Thrive on it. Or something. I lost my train of thought again.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

@those concerned that this critique is against the very personality this forum is representing
Naw, you all have great ideas. I was just concerned that the great ones were getting lost in the madness . The burden is on me to make use of it and I'm pretty sure that's the right perspective. Actually, no, I have no fucking clue, but it makes me sound responsible.

How's that different from any other place? Wherever you go, it's your responsibility to choose which information is reliable and which is useless and there's plenty of both to pick from.

About the application of awesome ideas. No one else will be as invested and focused on applying great ideas as the people who proposed them or incorporated the process. Many of the ideas shared are idle conjectures or fantasies with no physical risk or effort behind them yet/ever. So it's quite natural that despite the appeal and popularity of many similar topics here not everyone is a career scientist or only a small % works as a programmer, etc.

The difference between each of our paths, our visions and what appeals to us; are three separate things (true callings/situational burdens, desired/regretted potentials, entertaining fantasies).

 

[Inquisitor]

Honestly it's pretty obvious who knows what's what and who's just spinning their wheels. Most people on here are very young. If you want excellent, mature, practical life advice for INTP males, written by those in middle age or older, look at posts written by Architect, EditorOne, and maybe a few others, but those are the ones that spoke to me in some way. For INTP females, I'm not sure cause I ain't one and gender does make a significant difference where career and relationship advice are concerned. You may disagree, and that's fine.

 

[Tannhauser]

@Inquisitor
The only reason you list Architect as a source of infallible wisdom is that you both share the religious belief in the concept of choosing work based on Ti – a completely subjective conjecture (using the word conjecture generously here, as you treat it more like a dogma) rooted in nothing else than Jungian superstition. And based on that, people are told (by you and Architect) what they can and cannot do.

 

[Inquisitor]

@Inquisitor
The only reason you list Architect as a source of infallible wisdom is that you both share the religious belief in the concept of choosing work based on Ti – a completely subjective conjecture (using the word conjecture generously here, as you treat it more like a dogma) rooted in nothing else than Jungian superstition. And based on that, people are told (by you and Architect) what they can and cannot do.

A) You're younger than me and haven't lived long enough to validate this. You can be skeptical all you want, but at the end of the day, you're best served by being skeptical of your own skepticism and reserving judgement. The longer I've studied this, the more I've come to realize that what you term "subjective conjecture" and "dogma" is actually a reality, both for others and for me.

B) If you believe in MBTI (which as far as I'm concerned is not a matter of belief given the weight of the evidence, which you haven't really looked into due to preconceived bias), then it is a fact that personality shapes cognitive ability. People are motivated to act and think and approach the world in a certain way. Hence their brains will develop correspondingly. The neural networks that develop as a result of being an INTP lend themselves very well to doing certain kinds of computation, or processing. You really think the fact that you like math, most likely also have an aptitude for it, and want to pursue a job in quantitative finance are all just coincidence and have nothing to do with your being an INTP? That's what you're asserting. Think about that. Those three things are intimately related.

C) Pursuing occupations that make heavy use of those neural networks that are most highly developed instead of those least developed is just common sense. IOW, don't try to be something you're not. The functions are merely a way of classifying the different types. You don't have to subscribe to them if you don't want to. Personally, I think the model holds valid for me, especially the parts about the dominant vs. inferior, and how the latter has continually created problems for me.

D) You have not bothered to read the relevant literature on the cognitive functions from the original theorists, hence you know not of what you speak.

E) As far as the OP being concerned about missing nuggets of life wisdom on this forum, the posters I mentioned above are the best source for INTP males. Find me other posters that are better if you disagree.

 

[redbaron]

You're actually such a shit excuse for a human being Inquisitor.

"The longer I've studied this" - you made a thread about how you'd only just read Jung like 6 months ago. Stop acting like your views and knowledge of MBTI have been some decades long quest when it's a few Jung books and CelebrityTypes.com.

You're a joke.

 

[Rualani]

So, I'm going to give it my last heroic attempt to make my central point. It was rather nebulous when I first thought about it, but I think I've isolated the thing that I'm not seeing, that I have seen before. I will be synthesizing information that I have just aquired from your responses, so I AM NOT TRYING to act like, I had this idea all along. This is evolution baby! Also... I AM a noob when it comes to the nuance of forum discussion, so, yes, it probably was pure ignorance on my part regarding the forums and how I, personally, should make the most of them.

In some forums I will run across threads where someone will put forth a heroic effort to compile information that has been widely discussed in a forum. I usually spot these in the context of gaming advice, or ideas for improvements. The basic idea is that there are problems that largely pertain to this specific game that people have had a wide range of discussions about. A lot of the times some of the discussions can overlap and become very redundant. This isn't necessarily bad, because new perspectives are generated in the exploration of these 'old' ideas.

What made me think about this, was the various threads on helping xNTPs focus and keep up with the demands of the culture. The current method that each person can apply would be to bookmark threads like these or track them by other means. With such a specific issue (Solid advice on how to focus), I thought -for some reason- that there would be cases, like those gaming forums where a unifying thread highlighting all those ideas.

Now. The reason I was talking about a broader discussion was because I'm not sure a unifying thread is the right solution for this community. I'm not even sure there is a solution, but I still think the idea of a more universal source to go to on specific topics like , How to focus, would be interesting. Not necessary. Not the dominant discourse. Just something that, I wasn't seeing.

The only reason I brought this up, is because I thought some ideas can be broadly useful to INTPs. If I didn't think that I wouldn't have this thread. So why not a go to location for such useful information. The rest of the damn universe can be a mutual exchange of ideas with people grabbing and keeping what they find useful and unique. That is completely fine with me. Except when reality snaps my ideal universe into two.

 

[Tannhauser]

A) You're younger than me and haven't lived long enough to validate this. You can be skeptical all you want, but at the end of the day, you're best served by being skeptical of your own skepticism and reserving judgement. The longer I've studied this, the more I've come to realize that what you term "subjective conjecture" and "dogma" is actually a reality, both for others and for me.

Your philosophy all along seems to have been: "It makes sense to me on a subjective level, therefore it applies to everyone". It doesn't really matter what reality is for you subjectively – a lot of dopey shit makes sense to people in that sphere. When you tell other people what they should do, you are treading into the empirical, objective world. My stance is exactly to withhold judgement – I have absolutely no theory for what people should do, or what they can do, or what they will be happy doing.

Think about it – when you say "I have Ti with a strong Ne", or "I have Si but some days I even have Se" or whatever – that is a potentially useful heuristic on a subjective level. When you say "you tested as INTP? Then you cannot be an entrepreneur but you can do computer science", that is a statement about the behaviour of the world around you – it is theorising about human behaviour.

B) If you believe in MBTI (which as far as I'm concerned is not a matter of belief given the weight of the evidence, which you haven't really looked into due to preconceived bias), then it is a fact that personality shapes cognitive ability. People are motivated to act and think and approach the world in a certain way. Hence their brains will develop correspondingly. The neural networks that develop as a result of being an INTP lend themselves very well to doing certain kinds of computation, or processing. You really think the fact that you like math, most likely also have an aptitude for it, and want to pursue a job in quantitative finance are all just coincidence and have nothing to do with your being an INTP? That's what you're asserting. Think about that. Those three things are intimately related.

C) Pursuing occupations that make heavy use of those neural networks that are most highly developed instead of those least developed is just common sense. IOW, don't try to be something you're not. The functions are merely a way of classifying the different types. You don't have to subscribe to them if you don't want to. Personally, I think the model holds valid for me, especially the parts about the dominant vs. inferior, and how the latter has continually created problems for me.

You can fit all kinds of explanations onto why people do what they do. I have done a fair share of that myself in light of MBTI. The bottom line is that none of this theorising does anything. When you come up with non-falsifiable theories, you'll always win the argument (but not much more). The only things that have worked in the practical world are: discipline and goal orientation. If I would want to be a musician, I would approach it in the same way as I approached math – in fact I don't think I have any more aptitude for math than being a musician.

All this stuff about "neural networks" etc is again just theorising, an attempt at making MBTI sound sciency. I think we both know there is absolutely no neurological basis for MBTI.

And I would assume that if I would ask you for empirical validation for these claims, you would say "it makes sense to me on a subjective level, so I don't have to". Empirical claims magically turning into subjective sensations..

D) You have not bothered to read the relevant literature on the cognitive functions from the original theorists, hence you know not of what you speak.

E) As far as the OP being concerned about missing nuggets of life wisdom on this forum, the posters I mentioned above are the best source for INTP males. Find me other posters that are better if you disagree.

View attachment 2670

Funny you should bring up Newton. You share one trait with him – a religious devotion to "the wisdom of the ancients". Newton viciously hated Descartes for inventing the algebraic methods which we widely use today in mathematics. He believed in the geometrical methods of the ancient Greeks – a vastly less general and highly impractical method which he stubbornly clung to. That is why we use the calculus of Leibniz and algebra of Descartes today..

 

[Cheeseumpuffs]

Find me other posters that are better if you disagree.

cheese.

Edit: Keeping things male specific, that is. cheese would be my first choice over Architect any day. Although EditorOne is also pretty good.

Edit2: Tannhauser's right. Absurdity's a good choice, too.

 

[Grayman]

@Raul

how would you sort and manage such a thread? A question/advice forum has markers that highlight the best answer to the thread topic.

another forum I saw had replaced the thumbs up with various other emotes like 'Helpful' 'Funny' and 'Insightful'.

To be honest I don't know exactly what you are suggesting. Can you provide a more concrete example of what you suggesting/seeing?

 

[Tannhauser]

Find me other posters that are better if you disagree.

Absurdity. Someone who understands how to live life without fitting it into dopey theories.

 

[redbaron]

In some forums I will run across threads where someone will put forth a heroic effort to compile information that has been widely discussed in a forum. I usually spot these in the context of gaming advice, or ideas for improvements.

It's pretty easy to do that for gaming though, as opposed to life advice. Everyone's different, even within the context of being the same type and there's not really a one-size fits all solution for anyone. We all live vastly different lives, which is pretty different to all playing the same game.

You can easily make a thead outlining how to utilize game mechanics for an objective benefit, but it's harder to do that for your life. Best we can hope for is to provide our own perspective and hope others can relate.

Also I vote for nanook

 

[zerkalo]

Wait wat...Cheese is a male? :0

 

[Pyropyro]

Spoiler

So, I'm going to give it my last heroic attempt to make my central point. It was rather nebulous when I first thought about it, but I think I've isolated the thing that I'm not seeing, that I have seen before. I will be synthesizing information that I have just aquired from your responses, so I AM NOT TRYING to act like, I had this idea all along. This is evolution baby! Also... I AM a noob when it comes to the nuance of forum discussion, so, yes, it probably was pure ignorance on my part regarding the forums and how I, personally, should make the most of them.

In some forums I will run across threads where someone will put forth a heroic effort to compile information that has been widely discussed in a forum. I usually spot these in the context of gaming advice, or ideas for improvements. The basic idea is that there are problems that largely pertain to this specific game that people have had a wide range of discussions about. A lot of the times some of the discussions can overlap and become very redundant. This isn't necessarily bad, because new perspectives are generated in the exploration of these 'old' ideas.

What made me think about this, was the various threads on helping xNTPs focus and keep up with the demands of the culture. The current method that each person can apply would be to bookmark threads like these or track them by other means. With such a specific issue (Solid advice on how to focus), I thought -for some reason- that there would be cases, like those gaming forums where a unifying thread highlighting all those ideas.

Now. The reason I was talking about a broader discussion was because I'm not sure a unifying thread is the right solution for this community. I'm not even sure there is a solution, but I still think the idea of a more universal source to go to on specific topics like , How to focus, would be interesting. Not necessary. Not the dominant discourse. Just something that, I wasn't seeing.

The only reason I brought this up, is because I thought some ideas can be broadly useful to INTPs. If I didn't think that I wouldn't have this thread. So why not a go to location for such useful information. The rest of the damn universe can be a mutual exchange of ideas with people grabbing and keeping what they find useful and unique. That is completely fine with me. Except when reality snaps my ideal universe into two.

I think this venture is better off done through a book or a wiki. Compiling useful stuff using a forum is like painting a portrait with a nail polish brush. It is possible but there's more efficient media out there that can get the job done.

 

[Haim]

@Inquisitor
The only reason you list Architect as a source of infallible wisdom is that you both share the religious belief in the concept of choosing work based on Ti – a completely subjective conjecture (using the word conjecture generously here, as you treat it more like a dogma) rooted in nothing else than Jungian superstition. And based on that, people are told (by you and Architect) what they can and cannot do.

I will ignore Architect opinion,and say mine.
It is not about can or can not it is about should or should not.If I put an affort to it I can be,let's say sellman,I can be great sellman,but that does not mean I should as I would hate it,this can be generally predicted given the usual things a sellman does.By definition an introverted person does not like frequent shallow interactions with people.

About the topic itself.
Having a lot of ideas does not necessarily mean more ideas worth doing,it seem to me like there is some sort of biased here,that because people here have lower idea to practical idea ratio they think they are not practical,while in reality they have the same amount of practical ideas if not more as the other guy,but are hidden by a cloud of other ideas,giving the false impression that the practical ones are insignificant,these concluding wrong idea you are not practical.

About sorting,screw this lets hire a INTJ in a separate site(keep the(others) order away from me!).Our way of thinking is not organized,trying to organise it just result in a billion thread splits.We can not know what is a good idea and what is not,there is little point of doing that,the person that chooses will just choose opinions similar to him,more than one will result in popular opinion,which are,as in the general public, many times bad or misdirected.

 

[Tannhauser]

I will ignore Architect opinion,and say mine.
It is not about can or can not it is about should or should not.If I put an affort to it I can be,let's say sellman,I can be great sellman,but that does not mean I should as I would hate it,this can be generally predicted given the usual things a sellman does.By definition an introverted person does not like frequent shallow interactions with people.

Sure, that is a subjective judgement one can make. I am an introvert, therefore I tend to get worn out fast by numerous human interactions. But I also happen to know an introvert who loves being a salesman. I guess he enjoys talking about the stuff he sells, I don't know. The world, and especially hypercomplex organisms like humans tend to be hard to fit into boxes. So when it comes to life choices, and people thinking about their aspirations, I would be extremely careful to theorize and tell them what they should and shouldn't do. Complex practical problems are about trial and error, not theorising.

 

[Sinny91]

Achilles heal of this forum is constant pissing contests.
I'm partially guilty.

 

[nanook]

I get a little bit angry each time i look at personality caffee which has "sticky" threads* by a person who i always perceived as being loud and violent about how they express their theories, but not as being right and not even original. my perception is that they get power by stealing the ideas from analysts and using them as a tool to manipulate social dynamics.

(sticky threads = public bookmarks, always shown at the top)

people don't know what is right, who is right, so if someone is popular, accepted as intellectual authority, it's because he has other traits.

i'm no different. i get fanpost on here, but it's not because i am accurate, i am not, i'm especially confused about typology, even though on a high level, so i guess it's because i'm sort of passionate and deep into it all and i enjoy to share.

other popular posters get popularity or respect out of traits like being bookish, exact, consistent, etc. yet other people have high social standing, from interaction.

various traits resonate with different audiences. for example i am repelled by bookish exactness, it makes me think this person would believe everything once it's been written out, they have forgotten to do empiricism with their own eyes. i'm not sure if this implies they rely on Ti too much, i've often felt they rely on Ne too little, as a result of relying on Se instead.

to say "in my experience Ti types make good architects" is a sensation based statement and it may be perceived as a solid static fact, when believed. a sensor would say: "i can learn something reliable from a person who speaks in such an exact manner. they know what they are talking about". an intuitive statement would be: "Ti types always try to improve their understanding" - this statement is intuitive, because it references a process, a progress, a change, not a static state of being, it references the process of "understanding". to this the sensor might reply: "i have literally no idea what improving understanding means, it might mean so many different things, so mbti is useless pseudo science". so in this hypothetical example two ISTP disagree with each other, about the value of typology, because of the source from which it was delivered to them.

i know it sounds like i am making suggestions about the types of people involved in this thread but it's not my intention to claim that this hypothetical example is an exact match to what has been observed here. as i sad before, my intelligence is not the exacting type, it always explodes into similarities (Si) and changes (Ne). to me S and ß and ssss are all the same ....

a similar conflict of perception is between people who think that typology tries to be predictive versus people who think it's just meant to aid in psychoanalysis, like myself. clearly it excels in analysis and has very little predictive power, this can probably be objectively proven to everyone.

but opinions differ about what it ought to be, in order to be worthy of attention. some people demand it to be predictive. either they believe it is and love it or they disbelieve and abandon it. they don't value pure analytical understanding. why does someone want typology to be predictive?

different possibilities exist. an entp might want to predict social dynamics, because he is interested in gaining behavioral power. he wants to predict the processes that people are dedicated to, for instance "i can get the attention of this intp girl, if I present a mystery that will take her time to analyse."

a sensor wants to be informed about what the world is like, in terms of static images that can be approached in concrete manner so he is like "if you introduce me to person X and reveal that they are ISTP, i will imagine they might be car mechanic who jumps out of airplanes on sundays, i shall talk about such topics".

this is not exactly a prediction of what will happen or will be done, it's thought to be a prediction of what might be learned later, as a fact. knowing people ahead of acquaintance. however this ISTP turns out to be about environmentalism, wild park preservation; and he dislikes talking about cars. so the prediction was a fail and typology was seen as a disappointment.

 

[zerkalo]

*fanposts nanook*

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

Now. The reason I was talking about a broader discussion was because I'm not sure a unifying thread is the right solution for this community. I'm not even sure there is a solution, but I still think the idea of a more universal source to go to on specific topics like , How to focus, would be interesting. Not necessary. Not the dominant discourse. Just something that, I wasn't seeing.

Life advice is very different from gaming theory crafting. You can see the effectiveness of ideas in games mere minutes or hours after applying them. You get your feedback on life after years if at all and it's never as clear cut, there are no universally accepted "win" conditions, people are different every time and every advice has to be adjusted to your personal resources and circumstances whereas in games the resources are identical and carry over from guide to guide. It's impossible to usefully reduce a practically chaotic, fuzzy system such as life to the level of simplicity of deterministic games or puzzles.

That said, there's been multiple attempts at synthesising and compiling various intp life problems, if you can be bothered to search this forum you'll find a number of threads that address the more common predicaments or traits. Most of the time offering basic observations and remaining inconclusive.

 

[Inquisitor]

Your philosophy all along seems to have been: "It makes sense to me on a subjective level, therefore it applies to everyone". It doesn't really matter what reality is for you subjectively – a lot of dopey shit makes sense to people in that sphere. When you tell other people what they should do, you are treading into the empirical, objective world. My stance is exactly to withhold judgement – I have absolutely no theory for what people should do, or what they can do, or what they will be happy doing.

If that makes you feel better, good for you.

Think about it – when you say "I have Ti with a strong Ne", or "I have Si but some days I even have Se" or whatever – that is a potentially useful heuristic on a subjective level. When you say "you tested as INTP? Then you cannot be an entrepreneur but you can do computer science", that is a statement about the behaviour of the world around you – it is theorising about human behaviour.

Only the misinformed say the first underlined part. Those of us who have read the literature on this would never say such an idiotic thing.

Careful, I didn't use the word "cannot." Here is what I did say:

If you are an INTP, it's unlikely you have what it takes to be a successful entrepreneur...sorry.

I later retracted this statement b/c I realized I had misused the word "entrepreneur."

I'm actually going to recant my statement about INTPs being poor "entrepreneurs." Doesn't seem to be supported by the research. See below.**

**I found this excellent paper by one of reckful's all time favorites, James Reynierse, that indicates that INTPs are very highly represented among entrepreneurs. Now, the definition of an "entrepreneur" is a bit shaky, but I think it's fair to conclude that INTPs are a big fan of starting their own "small businesses." This makes intuitive sense to me, but at the same time, what I was saying earlier is that I would really struggle with having to hire and manage others. I'd much rather be in my own corner and not have anybody bothering me. You can interpret that paper however you like, but I couldn't tell from reading it exactly what kind of small businesses these INTPs started...would be useful information.

What I really should have said was "executive." Entrepreneur can apparently mean anyone who incorporates, from independent consultants and contractors to Richard Branson. Nevertheless, the idea that INTPs are likely well-suited to computer science has a lot of empirical evidence, which you apparently have not bothered to investigate.

You can fit all kinds of explanations onto why people do what they do. I have done a fair share of that myself in light of MBTI. The bottom line is that none of this theorising does anything. When you come up with non-falsifiable theories, you'll always win the argument (but not much more). The only things that have worked in the practical world are: discipline and goal orientation. If I would want to be a musician, I would approach it in the same way as I approached math – in fact I don't think I have any more aptitude for math than being a musician.

If you are an INTP the probability of the last part being true is virtually null. ENFJs by some studies are the most highly represented type among musicians. Discipline and goal orientation are important no doubt, but aptitude is the difference between a really successful and enjoyable career, and one where you burn out. You haven't had too many jobs yet so you don't know what that feels like. I do. That's why I said you haven't lived long enough to validate this stuff for yourself subjectively yet. I only half-bought into MBTI when I was in college and dismissed it after that for years. I came back to it much later and realized that it held answers for me. The same thing may or may not happen to you after you've experienced the demands of the world of work.

All this stuff about "neural networks" etc is again just theorising, an attempt at making MBTI sound sciency. I think we both know there is absolutely no neurological basis for MBTI.

It's actually not. It has scientific evidence.

And I would assume that if I would ask you for empirical validation for these claims, you would say "it makes sense to me on a subjective level, so I don't have to". Empirical claims magically turning into subjective sensations..

That's not what I would say. See below.

Funny you should bring up Newton. You share one trait with him – a religious devotion to "the wisdom of the ancients". Newton viciously hated Descartes for inventing the algebraic methods which we widely use today in mathematics. He believed in the geometrical methods of the ancient Greeks – a vastly less general and highly impractical method which he stubbornly clung to. That is why we use the calculus of Leibniz and algebra of Descartes today..

I don't care about Newton, I like that meme.

Here are the facts as I see them Tannhauser. You and I have had this same old discussion several times where you try to browbeat me into admitting that all of my beliefs are purely subjective conjecture, and that I'm just a religious fanatic of typology.

FACT #1) You have not read the foundational works on type dynamics. I have.

FACT #2) You have not read the academic literature on MBTI. I have.

FACT #3) You have not cited any evidence that conclusively demonstrates that MBTI is an invalid psychometric instrument.

You are a self-proclaimed "empiricist" who is too lazy to do any empirical research of his own. You basically continually bash me for not "withholding judgement" as you do, believing yourself to be free of delusion in this regard compared to me. At least that guy reckful bothered to read the original works before deciding that he didn't subscribe to type dynamics and found the dichotomies to be more relevant.

Since this issue is obviously something you care deeply about, I'm going to suggest that you take a month or two to correct the above deficiencies. You said that you read the Qu'ran. Even if you don't believe in typology, simply reading the foundational works on type dynamics is an opportunity to become familiar with some really great thinkers. Open an account at MILO, the Isabel and Myers Briggs Library, and look through some articles in peer reviewed journals using your local library's databases (if possible). Otherwise try to get access through your alma mater. Here are two articles from CPP that explain their basis for the validity and reliability of the MBTI to get you started:

https://www.cpp.com/campaigns/mbti_manual_supp.aspx

 

[Tannhauser]

@Inquisitor

Here are the facts as I see them:

1) It does not matter what anyone of us has read. What matters is our arguments. I take care to not namedrop thinkers just to make arguments sound better (people without any good arguments usually do the opposite).

2) To call the empirical research done on MBTI "academic writing" is a huge joke. All we have are these superficial statistics on the frequencies of various types in various fields. Somehow these are supposed to validate various hypotheses of the MBTI. The truth is that you could use the same reasoning to conclude from voting statistics from 1900 that women are inept at voting. I have never seen a real hypothesis being presented and tested statistically in light of MBTI. If anyone can provide that, I would appreciate it.

3) It is not my job to try to invalidate theories unless I myself come up with claims. The default is not any theory, but no theory. If I tell you that I have a model which predicts the stock market, you are not supposed to accept that as truth until you have found conclusive evidence against my claim. Besides, MBTI does not make falsifiable claims – it does not lend itself to scientific falsification. That is especially the reason I would never tell anyone what to do based on the theory it provides.

 

[Inquisitor]

@Inquisitor

Here are the facts as I see them:

1) It does not matter what anyone of us has read. What matters is our arguments. I take care to not namedrop thinkers just to make arguments sound better (people without any good arguments usually do the opposite).

What nonsense Tannhauser. By your estimation, there is no difference then between your knowledge of psychology and that of a recently-minted psychologist who has had to read and study thousands of pages. Theoretical (book) knowledge is crucial in every single field. W/o the background, you don't have a clue.

2) To call the empirical research done on MBTI "academic writing" is a huge joke. All we have are these superficial statistics on the frequencies of various types in various fields. Somehow these are supposed to validate various hypotheses of the MBTI. The truth is that you could use the same reasoning to conclude from voting statistics from 1900 that women are inept at voting. I have never seen a real hypothesis being presented and tested statistically in light of MBTI. If anyone can provide that, I would appreciate it.

The underlined part is an indication that you are being foolish. Pure INTP laziness. No grounding in reality whatsoever. You clearly have read almost zilch. It's your job to investigate your own biases, b/c that's all they are right now. I have already done that and am aware of the limitations of the test.

3) It is not my job to try to invalidate theories unless I myself come up with claims. The default is not any theory, but no theory. If I tell you that I have a model which predicts the stock market, you are not supposed to accept that as truth until you have found conclusive evidence against my claim. Besides, MBTI does not make falsifiable claims – it does not lend itself to scientific falsification. That is especially the reason I would never tell anyone what to do based on the theory it provides.

Again, talking out of your ass. You're the one saying that MBTI is not predictive, invalid, and unreliable as a psychometric instrument. I bet you haven't even read the evidence against it.

You imagine yourself to be above reproach b/c of the bolded sentence. In fact, 50 million people have taken the MBTI since its inception. The fact is that people are looking for guidance about career choice and satisfaction among other things. The MBTI helps with that.

One of the reasons the INTPf even exists is b/c people frequently come on here looking to better understand themselves and are often in the midst of a crisis (especially in terms of career choice and relationship advice). Therefore, when they ask for advice, the best anyone can do based exclusively on their test result is to give them the available information regarding that result.

If a lot of people with a certain personality type are highly represented in a certain field, and if you are confident of your own type, then it's probably a good idea to at least investigate that field. Conversely, if you want to get involved in a field that research indicates is highly under-represented by your type, it may be a good idea to think twice about going into it. That's all I've ever done on here. I have never once definitely told someone that the only field they will ever like as an INTP is CS.

At least I know enough about type dynamics and the MBTI to be able to pass on some useful information to newcomers, but if you think about it, not doing your homework, and then making baseless claims about the MBTI and Jung being religious superstition serves no one's best interests. If you actually had a clue, and were giving people very specific reasons why they should disregard their test results, I wouldn't have an issue with that. I would probably disagree with you, but I would respect the fact that you had at least put in the effort to really back up your claims. Maybe you should start a thread compiling all the evidence against it instead of spouting nonsense.

You don't deny not having done your due diligence either. That's enough for me.

Once you have done your homework and invested some serious time and effort combing through the thousands of studies that have been done on the MBTI, then you can start tearing apart the test and type dynamics. Until then, you are just blabbering nonsense. I don't care if I am violating your dearly-held principles. I will continue to tell people exactly what I think. Every time you disagree, I will simply keep pointing out to you and to others that you have not bothered to do any research. I don't know what else to say except "drop it." Your arguments don't convince me, and right now they're not convincing anyone else either. This discussion is over.

 

[Tannhauser]

@Inquisitor

It is hard to reply to you because now you have sprinkled your post with bullshit all over it.

On the topic of studies, though: you see, the stuff you and Architect love talking about is not based on studies, it is mostly based on MBTI theory. Therefore I don't need to do any "homework" to reject it on epistemological grounds. These epistemological grounds were for example discussed in this thread: http://intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=23001.

The nature of typical statistical results pertaining to MBTI was pretty much outlined there: they are circular. Asking people whether they like analytical pursuits, and then "predicting" than these people will be heavily represented in analytical pursuits, does nothing to validate the theoretical framework of MBTI.

I don't reject the subjective heuristics it provides. Those are similar to knowing about cognitive biases. You don't have to introduce all this dopey theory about choosing work based on functions to make use of that.

 

[Yellow]

I'm 99.99% sure that cheese is a lady.

 

[Cheeseumpuffs]

Really? Did I fuck up? I'm pretty sure cheese is a guy...

 

[Jennywocky]

Is s/he or isn't s/he?

... hehe. i know the answer!

 

[Haim]

What nonsense Tannhauser. By your estimation, there is no difference then between your knowledge of psychology and that of a recently-minted psychologist who has had to read and study thousands of pages. Theoretical (book) knowledge is crucial in every single field. W/o the background, you don't have a clue.
...........

While you claim you have the right data,as in other people using statistical data your conclusions are not right.I do not care if you have all wikipedia in you if you are still saying false things,the data does not seem to help you much,I do not need to go far to show that your conclusions are false.
INTP are not good musicians?what a pure bullshit.While having more of one type in profession is likely to indicate something,it is does not necessary indicate the skill in the profession and due more likely to indicate will of intp type,that is not sure indication either.
The choosing of a job has many factors,many are dynamics,the type of people in each profession is dynamic,for example more female teachers today,does it say anything about male or female fitness to being a teacher?of course not.The following factors have influence:
1)who in the eyes of society is fitted to be a teacher.
2)wage
3)the will of the person,which influence the skill
4)the skill,which influence the will.
5)market factors,is it hard to become a teacher?,what kind of people are rejected because of acceptance to education institute and the job itself.How much it hard to get a more preferred job?
6)What kind of people are you going to work with,will I get along with the typical co workers of that profession?,If not they wouldn't even give you a position.
7)The prestige of the profession.

There are many things the can cause a person with intp type of thinking that is skilled and/or willed to be musician to not be.
1)This is not practical,it won't give me money(not wanting to risk).
2)people don't like intp type of music,which does not say INTP can not do good music,but that it will be harder to have success(or not,it can be advantage of having no competition in your niche)
3)better options(he don't want not that he can not)
4)hard time forming a band(social reasons)

With the intp intuition,a walking ideas factory,I see no reason for an intp to lack musical skills.
MTBI is a way of thinking,you can reach the same result with different ways of thinking.You do not have any data that say that INTP way of thinking is bad at something,that best you can do is predict,given the typical will of an intp his will to do something,but even with that you need to be carefull,as there can be a lot of reasons to do the same thing,one of them may fit an intp.

Psychology is science?really you think adding numbers to psychology and using a "scientific" method make it a science?self reported data is not reliable way to see how the brain works,statistical based research has high number of fail points,most times in the conclusion itself,other times in the way the data is gathered,this is no science,it does not have a consistent result needed for true science,10 different researchers all contradicting each other,and that is also in areas with more reliable data than psychologie like health.
Let's say it is science,science has its limits with things that you have little amount of data about,Einstein did not wait for data to conclude what he concluded.You do not have data on the huge numbers of neural networks in the brain,we still have a lot to learn about the brain,and you say this is science?
What you is like trying to predict the weather based on elementary school science knowledge.First you lack the current data,that is positions of clouds and more(the brain of the person),second you have very basic knowledge about weather(the brain).MTBI conclusions are on the level of,well there is a statistical data that shows that it is cold in the winter,by that I conclude it will be cold tomorrow.And with that data you predict it will rain tomorrow,"I am right,this is science,look here a chart,it has the shape of a cake".

 

[Inquisitor]

While you claim you have the right data,as in other people using statistical data your conclusions are not right.I do not care if you have all wikipedia in you if you are still saying false things,the data does not seem to help you much,I do not need to go far to show that your conclusions are false.
INTP are not good musicians?what a pure bullshit.While having more of one type in profession is likely to indicate something,it is does not necessary indicate the skill in the profession and due more likely to indicate will of intp type,that is not sure indication either.
The choosing of a job has many factors,many are dynamics,the type of people in each profession is dynamic,for example more female teachers today,does it say anything about male or female fitness to being a teacher?of course not.The following factors have influence:
1)who in the eyes of society is fitted to be a teacher.
2)wage
3)the will of the person,which influence the skill
4)the skill,which influence the will.
5)market factors,is it hard to become a teacher?,what kind of people are rejected because of acceptance to education institute and the job itself.How much it hard to get a more preferred job?
6)What kind of people are you going to work with,will I get along with the typical co workers of that profession?,If not they wouldn't even give you a position.
7)The prestige of the profession.

There are many things the can cause a person with intp type of thinking that is skilled and/or willed to be musician to not be.
1)This is not practical,it won't give me money(not wanting to risk).
2)people don't like intp type of music,which does not say INTP can not do good music,but that it will be harder to have success(or not,it can be advantage of having no competition in your niche)
3)better options(he don't want not that he can not)
4)hard time forming a band(social reasons)

With the intp intuition,a walking ideas factory,I see no reason for an intp to lack musical skills.
MTBI is a way of thinking,you can reach the same result with different ways of thinking.You do not have any data that say that INTP way of thinking is bad at something,that best you can do is predict,given the typical will of an intp his will to do something,but even with that you need to be carefull,as there can be a lot of reasons to do the same thing,one of them may fit an intp.

Haim, it's never been about whether or not an INTP "can or cannot" be a musician, or even whether or not they will be "good" at it. It's about whether or not they are suited to being professional musicians. Again, the goal here is to find a career that is fulfilling and doesn't lead to burnout. If you want to be a professional musician, go right ahead. But if you're an INTP, I would say that all else equal, that's a poor decision b/c you won't be using enough of your strengths, and playing with feeling is going to be taxing.

 

[Haim]

You have no way of knowing that,this is not poetry,the level of feelings might not be that high.Anyway the point of art is to express feeling,which might be good for an intp,as he usually keep them in(there are many introvert artists),there are situations where into do like to express feelings and that is in art.Due it is true that INTP do not use much emotional type of thinking,which is not the same as feelings(it is type of illogical thinking,has no true or false),that will probable make it hard to make poetry.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

Haim, it's never been about whether or not an INTP "can or cannot" be a musician, or even whether or not they will be "good" at it. It's about whether or not they are suited to being professional musicians. Again, the goal here is to find a career that is fulfilling and doesn't lead to burnout. If you want to be a professional musician, go right ahead. But if you're an INTP, I would say that all else equal, that's a poor decision b/c you won't be using enough of your strengths, and playing with feeling is going to be taxing.

I am yet to find a person, especially a "perceiver" who made the choices regarding their future the way you propose. This is some next level self-help guru stuff.

Save for Architect and your comments on this board, which as far as I'm concerned may be very different from the reality of your situations, people don't discard their possibilities before they try their hands at something. Likewise, people don't actually study or focus too much on their internal psychology to guide their vocational development.

Suffice to say that I personally know examples to the contrary and many thinkers who became great artists either as their main source of income or supplementing their life in some meaningful way. Enough has been said in the past on the dubious nature of typology and all its inconsistencies that I'd say is enough for many critical and careful minds to avoid it, even more so when making serious life decisions.

The basis on which you decide for others and partly on your behalf, what may be decisive factors to invest or shy away from certain areas of life, appears pretty ridiculous to me personally. It's the complete antithesis of curiosity and empiricism which I think are key elements to the whole archetypical "intp" approach that is supposedly their defining feature and disregarding that; a commonly shared feature among the promising and hopeful young individuals in general.

 

[Absurdity]

Cheese is totally a dude

 

[zerkalo]

My first hunch was that cheese is a guy, but then I'm pretty sure I saw someone correct someone else with the pronouns they used while referring to cheese and i had to reprogram my head and now ure telling me cheese is a dude g*d I hate this forum

 

[Cheeseumpuffs]

I'm almost certain cheese is a guy. No one's ever corrected me on that (including, I'm pretty sure, cheese him/herself). Also I'm fairly sure I've seen Gopher refer to cheese as "him" and, iirc, cheese and Goph have actually met.

All of my memories point to cheese being a dude.

 

[cheese]

My gender is the Achilles heel of this forum!

No one can actually know until they've met me, anyway. No one really knows anything about each other for sure, and when you're as old-on-the-internet as I am, you'll know this to be true.

Or maybe my gender is like the moon. Yknow, there're two sides, the dark side and the side that looks like cheese, and whichever one you see depends on how ethically you source your dairy products.

Anyway, cheese is hot, 10/10 would bang.

 

[Rualani]

Thanks for all the input that everyone has put into this thread. I have learned a bit and decided upon where I should go from here. I wanted to give a shout-out to the contributors and lessons learned.


@ Dalyth
The advice on how to use forum tools to sift through the madness of the forums was well placed. It, also, helped narrow down what exactly I was looking for.


@Quicktwist Jennywocky
The conversation on type weakness that was applied to the thread was pretty interesting. The feedback helped me reconsider the message I was communicating and give another attempt at polishing it up.



@Nanook
After playing so much Starcraft 2, what came to mind was the phrase Not enough extraverted energy. Your insight on conflict between that predictive power of mbti and the self-analysis that it provides was well placed. If typology were ever to have predictive power, its insights would require much more polish and it would have to be applied with other tools for prediction. That’s probably a long way off. I do think that Jung attempted for his tool to be used for reflection and the continuation of the journey into self.


@Yellow
Yep, its fun.


@Urakro
Are… all your responses being modified into commentaries on the process of eating delicious treats. X.x I must digest this further. Either way, it fit very well. *claps*


@Cheesumpuffs
As you floated on by, and discussed how my concerns can apply to life overall, I found myself drifting in the air in reflection. Life is indeed a vibrant, mutating beast.


@ Blarraun Redbaron
It is very true that the ambiguity of life in comparison with the narrowness of gaming makes my goals rather… Improbable. I came in with my own understanding that life is one of the higher layers of complexity we deal with, but I still felt like some of the advice could be consistently applied to specific INTP situations. So, I’ve been impacted with the sheer difficulty of what I was trying to pursue.


@ Blarraun
Seeing how you had witnessed attempts at compiling life INTP advice and still finding them… inconclusive really helped me see where you were coming from.


@ Grayman
I wasn’t really offering specific suggestions, but more looking for a discussion about it. It made me think about how, I would actually do something about it. Guess I'm part of the problem I made up, bwahahaha.



@PyroPyro
Yeah, I think I agree. Your avatar seems rather peaceful to me.



@Haim
I am here to make demands on the INTP population about coming to a consensus on specific ideas and applying them. URAHAHAHAHA. On a more serious note, I wasn’t really looking at the ratio of applicable ideas in general, just if there was a process to get the good ones all together. You gave me some food for thought about on the topic if there’s even the slightest possibility of structures idea from this forum in that way. Maybe this is all just my INTJ envy showing.



[FONT=&quot]@ Inquisitor Redbaron and Tannhauser
Your rather intriguing conflict gave me pause and thought about something really important about having commonly agreed upon ideas. Personally, I would want each idea to be evaluated independently to come to a consensus. It’s most revealing that shit hit the fan when the even slightest inclination of a hierarchy of idea contributors(yes I’m using these words) was introduced. Anyways, I’m pretty sure this conflict has brought more interest to the forum and breathed more life into it. Messy, insane, … life. So uhhhhhhhhhh, thanks.

[FONT=&quot]Overall, I[FONT=&quot]'ll be more proactive in keeping t[FONT=&quot]rack of information I find useful[FONT=&quot] and finding ways that it can fit into my life.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT]

 

[Yellow]

Huh. Then where did I get the lady-cheese idea? I could have sworn.... Hang on... ... ... ...The evidence I thought I had is eluding me. I apologize for my most probable wrongness.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

I came in with my own understanding that life is one of the higher layers of complexity we deal with, but I still felt like some of the advice could be consistently applied to specific INTP situations. [FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

This seems true with life advice...to some extent it is useful.