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ADD and ADHD scam

higs

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I think ADD and ADHD and their treatment with ritalin are scams, with research being financed by out of control private American pharmaceutical businesses/lobbies who want to make money. Everyone who I've met who was diagnosed with ADHD are high IQ individuals who were bored in class and were put on drugs because their teachers couldn't deal with them. Ritalin is expensive and addictive, and the ones I have met who have been on it are all highly intelligent creative individuals who said it turned them into docile zombies when they were on it. What do you think, am I a mad conspiracy theorist? Do you have ADHD? I would certainly qualify for ADD easily, I'm all over the place, dreaming, fazing out, unable to get organized ever since I was a kid, I always got by in school eventually by winging it, still do. If you look at the set of criteria it's fucking ridiculous. "Do you dislike completing homework" and stuff like that. It honestly seems like such bullshit. I have no research to back any of this up of course. Surely we're all ADD now that we all wake up and are just bombarded with information on screens everywhere anyway. I would still like to try out Ritalin. Apparently some students at the American university of Paris deal it, so I'll buy some sometime :D
 

Nebulous

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Well I think there's normal 'I'm bored and uhgugh school this is so awful I can't even focus' and then there's 'I'm trying the very best I can but for the life of me I can't get my mind to do what I want it to'

Ya know

I'm terrified of meds, because they're either 1.) a big, phony, addictive and expensive scam or 2.) they'll work but turn me into a zombie or a normal boring cookie cutter human being.

But I really have trouble focusing on stuff, even if I'm trying as hard as I can.
So I think ADD / ADHD is a thing, but meds are scary.. idk
 

ummidk

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I think we don't know how drugs like this affect a developing brain in the long term.
 
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intelligent and creative individuals are more likely to be bored by the oppressive monotony of modern education which can lead to their questioning and rebelling against it which interferes with its function of churning out obedient consumers with a deference to authority. as adults they are more likely to become pesky flies in the ointment of the system and drugging them (and possibly some individuals with actual disorders) in their millions during childhood (i.e. before their brains are even fully developed) is an experimental exercise in social engineering whose consequences may be one of the last few steps on the road to full-blown dystopia
 

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Psychiatry in general is a scam. Notice how it's only been taken seriously the last 80 years or so after Freud. Before mental issues were dealt through conversation or literature, since there is no objective consensus how something can be a "mental illness".

They are trying to treat an alleged problem with the mind(which is immaterial), with drugs that effect the material make up of the brain? And there is no testing that can prove someone has a disease. It can't be empirically tested or falsifiable, so psychiatrists rely on subjective "checklists" to make a diagnosis. If you open up the human body there is no mental illness to speak of. Mental is mind, the brain is actual biology and can actually have real diseases like Parkinsons or Alzheimers. Sounds like nonsense to me, and dangerous as the State mandates people to institutions for treatments. This is a slippery slope where any authority or scientist can decide whats appropriate or correct behavior for the individual, in turn neglecting individual agency and free will.
 

Nebulous

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intelligent and creative individuals are more likely to be bored by the oppressive monotony of modern education which can lead to their questioning and rebelling against it which interferes with its function of churning out obedient consumers with a deference to authority. as adults they are more likely to become pesky flies in the ointment of the system and drugging them (and possibly some individuals with actual disorders) in their millions during childhood (i.e. before their brains are even fully developed) is an experimental exercise in social engineering whose consequences may be one of the last few steps on the road to full-blown dystopia

Psychiatry in general is a scam.
I've been diagnosed with severe social anxiety, generalized anxiety, depression, OCD, ADD and emotional dysregulation

Every psych I saw wanted me on meds ASAP. But I'm scared of meds and was also super pissed off that everyone wanted to "fix" me. I didn't think there was anything wrong with me, it was just that who I was clashed with what society required. So I refused to take any.

If I'm going to change, it's going to be MY decision and mine alone.

I did CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy) which helped a TON with anxiety. They had been trying to get me on some medication that would make me less anxious- but I ended up getting better without meds, shocker! Therapy is generally a million times more useful than drugging people up IMO. Like my view is that meds should be last resort, or if you're in a severe situation that needs some results pronto.
It seems a lot more reasonable to try self help, therapy, etc instead of jumping into meds.

Currently, I'm probably a lot healthier than most people in my grade.
I still get anxious sometimes, but most people do, and I know how to deal with it now. I'm not depressed. I don't think I ever had OCD in the first place.
I do think I have some legitimate attention problems though. And that's something I want to fix. I want to do well in school, I want to be able to complete something without my mind wandering off. But I don't know how to fix this issue by myself. Whenever I ask a psych they go "MEDS! MEDS!" :/

-
Not all psychiatry is a scam, but a huge part of it is.
Tons of "professionals" are just in it for the money, smh.
But saying that meds aren't ever necessary or that all of psychiatry/psychology is a scam sorta implies that mental illnesses aren't real. That people can just "get better."
Mental illnesses are real, and some people really want help, and aren't able to do that without psychs.

I want to be a psychologist when I grow up- but actually help people. And I'd love to pioneer new ways of doing that instead of prescriptions.
 

Analyzer

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Not all psychiatry is a scam, but a huge part of it is.
Tons of "professionals" are just in it for the money, smh.
But saying that meds aren't ever necessary or that all of psychiatry/psychology is a scam sorta implies that mental illnesses aren't real. That people can just "get better."
Mental illnesses are real, and some people really want help, and aren't able to do that without psychs.

Where's the proof that mental illnesses are real? I'm not denying the effects of certain behaviors like suffering, hysteria, anxiety, ect...These are all "real" so to speak, but not in the sense cancer is real. Disease is an objective, pathological concept in the body that can determined like gold from copper. Treating people for mental illness has always been a tool to control people, nothing is new under the sun.

If you talk to God, you are praying; If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia. If the dead talk to you, you are a spiritualist; If you talk to the dead, you are a schizophrenic.
 

Yellow

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People Like to talk. ADHD is surrounded by a lot of ignorance, just like Autism. Every generation has its thing, these are our things.

Some children (and later, adults) consistently display the symptoms that got ADHD in the books. Their behavior is so severe that it decreases their quality of life. With medication, behavioral support, and counseling, these people are able to experience a markedly increased quality of life by both measurable standards and their own observations.

Parents want to think that their children are only imperfect because something's holding them back. There's a lot of pride involved there. Schools are held to unrealistic (for the circumstances) testing standards, so they're all for anything that will "help". Most prescribing doctors have precisely 15 seconds to assess for medication before the next patient, so they either have their own fast-track criteria, or they put them on whatever the mom/school counselor asks for.

I know I've said this before, but people want to simultaneously glamorize their mental health diagnoses, and demonize the diagnosis. Sure, it makes you seem edgy and special to have a diagnosis (which is rarely actually a diagnosis -- normally, someone unqualified to diagnose says "it seems like you have this, or let's send you to test for this", and you pin the diagnosis badge on your chest). It makes you seem even cooler to say "they say I have this, this is what they do to smart/cool/edgy people like me."

Then, you start balking about how it's all just a game. Of course it's a fucking game. It's your game. It your little delusion of coolness and uniqueness. It's yet another childish tactic to low-key brag about how smart and creative you and your clique are.

Sometimes it strikes me how much it must absolutely suck to have a moderate/severe mental illness. As if things aren't hard enough, they have to deal with so many flavors of ignorance. There are the jerks who hear a diagnosis and treat them like lepers, there are the jerks who act like the illness is a choice, and then there are the "cool kids" who tell them that they're just sheep for "believing there's something wrong".

As for "this is just a recent field, we used to just, like, talk to people", that's absolute bullshit.

We used to torture them, lock them away with criminals, treat them as sub-human laborers. Not to mention what we still do: letting them rot homeless on the streets or in and out of jail because it's easier than trying to help. Some tribal situations were more humane, but only when resources allowed and only when their conditions didn't interfere with village life. It also helped if they were children of important or popular people.

It's taken the "developed world" (with the exception of the Arab progress in medicine hundreds and hundreds of years ago) until now (about 100 years ago or so) to realize that mental health is a thing that can be improved with treatment.

It's not a perfect system, which is why it's always evolving.

Also, medicine/science does not mix well with politics. Like, at all. So when certain diagnoses/concepts become popularized/politicized, we get idiotic movements (like the rush to substitute parenting for medication and then the backlash against it). It also encourages corruption in the research process.

This doesn't mean the actual illness isn't real. Nor does it mean that it would never require medication.
 

Analyzer

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As for "this is just a recent field, we used to just, like, talk to people", that's absolute bullshit.

We used to torture them, lock them away with criminals, treat them as sub-human laborers. Not to mention what we still do: letting them rot homeless on the streets or in and out of jail because it's easier than trying to help. Some tribal situations were more humane, but only when resources allowed and only when their conditions didn't interfere with village life. It also helped if they were children of important or popular people.
Yeah now we just put them in institutions where they are forced treatments. The means change, not the ends. How come diagnosis have been increasing steadily for last half of century? Freedom is the only proper answer that takes account of individual choice. If you want to take experimental drugs to alter mental states then you should be allowed to do so. Nobody has the right to force one another.

It's taken the "developed world" (with the exception of the Arab progress in medicine hundreds and hundreds of years ago) until now (about 100 years ago or so) to realize that mental health is a thing that can be improved with treatment.

It's not a perfect system, which is why it's always evolving.

Also, medicine/science does not mix well with politics. Like, at all. So when certain diagnoses/concepts become popularized/politicized, we get idiotic movements (like the rush to substitute parenting for medication and then the backlash against it). It also encourages corruption in the research process.

This doesn't mean the actual illness isn't real. Nor does it mean that it would never require medication.
Nothing should mix with politics. Once politics touches any endeavor it corrupts it by it's very nature. Economics trumps all man-made laws and social dogma. We do not know the effects of long term drugging of people. Sure people may have been helped, but who is to say it was direct result of medications? There are no tests to verify illnesses and cures.
 

higs

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Yeah but it's not a stimulant like cocaïne, it's not twitchy but calm and focused. Those I have spoken to reported they were far less creative on it, but perhaps they are biased. I'll just have to try it myself :D
 

crippli

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I thought Ritalin was a stimulant for average people, and an anti stimulant for ADHD featured people? So that average people get a high, While people with an ADHD feature get a low?
 

Fukyo

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It's supposed to return patients to a normal baseline, rather than a low per se. "Calm and focused" as higs described it earlier is petty different than being a docile zombie, which to me suggests she was intentionally trying to spin usage of Ritalin in a negative light as a supporting argument that ADD/ADHD is not a real condition and as an extension of the general belief psychiatric drugs are bad and make you into a "zombie". You can make that case far better with antidepressants.
 

Brontosaurie

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Yeah but it's not a stimulant like cocaïne, it's not twitchy but calm and focused. Those I have spoken to reported they were far less creative on it, but perhaps they are biased. I'll just have to try it myself :D
You've been told some foggy stuff. Ritalin is actually more similar to cocaine than to amphetamine, both in chemical structure and pharmacological effect. Like cocaine and unlike amphetamine, it's principally a dopamine and noradrenaline reuptake inhibitor. However, the duration is more like that of amphetamine.

Any CNS stimulant will make a vast majority of people - including ADD patients - feel increasingly calm and focused, provided a correct dose. Take more and you're twitchy, with a restless sort of "apathetic euphoria".

Stimulants don't exactly make people more creative, but they give confidence which may produce results in all spheres of life including the arts. So, by the same logic you could say that stimulants make people more everything, which actually wouldn't be too far off the mark.

There's a confusion surrounding this topic: The thing is that ADHD people are in greater need for upregulation of focus in order to combat maladaptive behaviors including hyperactivity - so that when considering stimulant therapy, the positives of attaining normal everyday function outweigh the side-effects (addiction potential, sleeping troubles, interference with normal reward pathways crucial to habit formation, cardiovascular wear and tear, etc), whereas neurotypicals already have sufficient focus and while they might enjoy and derive benefit from more focus, stimulant therapy isn't a rational trade-off for them. This doesn't mean that stimulants do something different to ADHD brains. All it means is that the human brain is amazingly complex, that every coin has two sides and that society likes to draw lines and put stuff in boxes.
 

Yellow

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Yeah now we just put them in institutions where they are forced treatments. The means change, not the ends. How come diagnosis have been increasing steadily for last half of century? Freedom is the only proper answer that takes account of individual choice. If you want to take experimental drugs to alter mental states then you should be allowed to do so. Nobody has the right to force one another.
Except it's not forced. At least not in the US. Mental health treatment is a voluntary process for anyone without the disability of minority (i.e. children) and even they have some surprising level of say once they age into the double-digits. If someone is actively suicidal, then they can be forced into hospitalization for as long as they are an immediate threat to themselves (which is normally 24-48 hours for people without insurance, up to a week with insurance if you want to stay). That's it. Even then, you can talk your way out of it. All you have to do is appear stable enough to get through the 4-hour intake/assessment process. If you are unable to hold out even 4 hours acting "normal", then it's possible that 48 hours of treatment to clear your head isn't the worst thing that can happen to you.

Unless you're a criminal deliberately using a disorder in court as an excuse for a crime, you're not going to be court ordered to treatment, and even then you have a legal right to choose your service provider (granted you can afford your choice).

Bottom line: people with mental illness usually desperately want help. They'll tell you when they are getting low on their meds, or when they need adjustments. It's like being legally blind, and able to see with glasses. They know they can't see. They know they need glasses. They find out the second they put the glasses on for the first time that the glasses are a game-changer. It's similar for the mentally ill. If you're not ill, I suppose it would be difficult to empathize.

However, yes. Those poor, poor mental patients in movies are super oppressed and something should be done about it!

As a side note, medical diagnoses in general have been on the rise. Cardiovascular diagnoses, neurological diagnoses, mental health diagnoses, skeletal/muscular diagnoses, ocular diagnoses, perinatal diagnoses, dermatological diagnoses.. I've run out of categories off the top of my head. The point is that as we become more advanced and more crowded, we increasingly likely to become ill in one way or another, and more aware of illness.

We do not know the effects of long term drugging of people.
Yes we do, and it's normally fucking rough. That's one of the problems that must be weighed. If someone's illness is so severe that they live crippled by their own minds, then some prefer to risk the liver damage. Further, those who are so severely ill that they must be on the heavy stuff long-term risk a slow, but early death anyway. It's not exactly an easy world for those unaided with a debilitating illness.

.. edit, it looks like Bronto addressed this too ...

Sure people may have been helped, but who is to say it was direct result of medications?
Double-blind studies, for one. Do you really think this stuff goes without research?! One of the first steps for testing psychiatric and addiction-related treatments is to compare the medication alone against medication with counseling, counseling alone, other medications, and no treatment at all.

There are no tests to verify illnesses and cures.
Of course there are tests. Like with many neurological diseases (MS, lupus, etc.), the physical tests are for eliminating other issues that could be causing the symptoms. Since the brain controls you, just about every test for anything brain-related is an elimination test.

And there are no cures for mental illnesses (nor neurological conditions), only treatments. Well, as far as I know there are no cures. Maybe someday, but at our current level of knowledge and experience, it looks impossible.

I suppose that if we keep pushing to learn more and build on what we have (rather than just throwing up our hands saying "give up, it's all bullshit") we'll continue to improve.


Edit:
@ higs, Bronto is right. I think you're thinking of Adderral. That's literally amphetamine salt. Funny too, among people who abuse amphetamines/meth, when sober, seem to have a much higher rate of ADHD symptoms than those without such addictions. It's called "self-medicating". Some people find that illicit drugs will relieve their mental health conditions, and are more likely to abuse it as a drug of choice. When regulated on medication (even non-amphetamine treatments) and provided with counseling, many find that their addictions melt away.

Of course, there are a lot of other factors at play when you're talking about co-occuring recovery -- how long they were immersed in a lifestyle of addiction, availability of drugs home/with peers, resilience, coping skills, social support, trauma history, socioeconomic class/access to treatment, and so on.
 

The Gopher

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Yeah but it's not a stimulant like cocaïne, it's not twitchy but calm and focused. Those I have spoken to reported they were far less creative on it, but perhaps they are biased. I'll just have to try it myself :D
I wasn't on Ritalin I was on dexamphetamine which is entirely different. (probably)

I was less creative and drone like during the morning and more creative when it wore off at night.

That is if you discount the crazy side effects I had that ended in me stopping it.

I agree with Yellow despite that.
 

Happy

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I wasn't on Ritalin I was on dexamphetamine which is entirely different. (probably)

I was less creative and drone like during the morning and more creative when it wore off at night.

That is if you discount the crazy side effects I had that ended in me stopping it.

I agree with Yellow despite that.
I take Dexamphetamine. I used to take Ritalin. I find them more or less the same, but Dex works a little better for me.

I don't really lose my creativity. On these drugs, my creativity is more productive and targeted though, and less erratic.

I don't believe ADHD is a scam. My quality of life has been loads better since I began my treatment a few years ago (as an adult).
 

Analyzer

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Of course there are tests. Like with many neurological diseases (MS, lupus, etc.), the physical tests are for eliminating other issues that could be causing the symptoms. Since the brain controls you, just about every test for anything brain-related is an elimination test.


And there are no cures for mental illnesses (nor neurological conditions), only treatments. Well, as far as I know there are no cures. Maybe someday, but at our current level of knowledge and experience, it looks impossible.

I suppose that if we keep pushing to learn more and build on what we have (rather than just throwing up our hands saying "give up, it's all bullshit") we'll continue to improve.
What are the tests for determining anxiety, depression, ADD, ect...? Neurological diseases can be tested as they are biological components. Mental illnesses have no such ability. Your are essentially medicating human behavior and morality. Of course there is no problem with this if it was done voluntarily, which is not. If I want to be treated for what I believe is a psychiatric problem, I have to use a bureaucratic system which doesn't allow choice and often times coerces people into treatments.

This very problem of psychiatric diagnosis strikes me similar to the knowledge problem Hayek talks about. The fact that we cant be aware of all the empirical information regarding human psychology like in economics, makes it impossible to determine someones illness accurately as it's only based on observable characteristics. And if this is the case, it's important that there's a separation between the State and psychiatry.The legal system can label someone insane, addict, but consenting individuals don't have choice of drugs or treatment. This is not only wrong, but is entirely based on a presumption of omniscience(at least to the degree to determine what is and is not legal) on the part of the Pharmacracy.
 

Hadoblado

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So you're only against it if it's involuntary?

Otherwise it's fine right?

Can we all agree that it's fine so long as it's voluntary?

Because whether or not it's voluntary seems much easier to prove than the host of claims being made here.
 

higs

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It's supposed to return patients to a normal baseline, rather than a low per se. "Calm and focused" as higs described it earlier is petty different than being a docile zombie, which to me suggests she was intentionally trying to spin usage of Ritalin in a negative light as a supporting argument that ADD/ADHD is not a real condition and as an extension of the general belief psychiatric drugs are bad and make you into a "zombie". You can make that case far better with antidepressants.
I was specifically quoting a person I know who has been on it with the turn of phrase, so there probs is some bias yep. He said his adolescence was kind of ruined by it (creatively) and that when he got off it he became depressed. I think antidepressants are probably useful if well used. I think some psychiatric drugs are necessary too, for schizophrenia etc... I just don't understand how ADD and ADHD are diagnosed.
 

higs

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I wasn't on Ritalin I was on dexamphetamine which is entirely different. (probably)

I was less creative and drone like during the morning and more creative when it wore off at night.

That is if you discount the crazy side effects I had that ended in me stopping it.

I agree with Yellow despite that.
Tell us more Gopher seeing as you have first person experience, and you too Happy.
 

The Gopher

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Well I took it early morning at breakfast, then another one mid-morning. It was back when I was in school. School was done better it just sort of happened. Apparently my grades went up although I didn't notice the difference. Around 6 pm to 2 pm I would be depressed. I did my best writing around 11 pm to 2 pm that's when my creativity peaked.

Eventually I correlated the headaches and depression to it and stopped. While depression/headaches stopped happening in the same manner mind mood swings of a varying sort haven't and I'm not sure if that played a part or is just what would have happened normally. Not really that interesting although it turned me off drugs personally despite knowing and encouraging people with bigger issues to take them if needed.
 

Yellow

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What are the tests for determining anxiety, depression, ADD, ect...? Neurological diseases can be tested as they are biological components. Mental illnesses have no such ability.
I already addressed this. There are self-report tests, and physical tests. If you want more details, I'll help point you in the right direction tests and tests

And again, the right to choice is a basic part of field ethics. How people feel about their options is another matter. We can't magically create options that we don't have. We can't just hand every ADHD adult gobs of money to live on because he can't hold down a job. You need to either work that shit out on your own, give one of several treatments a try, or anything in between.

We work with what we have.
 

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I already addressed this. There are self-report tests, and physical tests. If you want more details, I'll help point you in the right direction tests and tests
None of this links indicate to me that there is a biological test for diagnosing mental illness. I saw this — "Real Disease vs. Mental “Disorder” Psychiatric disorders are not medical diseases. There are no lab tests, brain scans, X-rays or chemical imbalance tests that can verify any mental disorder is a physical condition."

Find me one test that accurately measures for a mental illness in the body.

And again, the right to choice is a basic part of field ethics. How people feel about their options is another matter. We can't magically create options that we don't have. We can't just hand every ADHD adult gobs of money to live on because he can't hold down a job. You need to either work that shit out on your own, give one of several treatments a try, or anything in between.

We work with what we have.
Exactly this is the main concern. Many drugs are regulated or outlawed. How do you expect to have a fair system of treatment when options are limited and forced by the State? People need to study some economics, and politics especially medical professionals.
 

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So you're only against it if it's involuntary?

Otherwise it's fine right?

Can we all agree that it's fine so long as it's voluntary?

Because whether or not it's voluntary seems much easier to prove than the host of claims being made here.
Of course. If things are done voluntarily who is to say what is fine and not? But this is not the case today.

https://www.cchrint.org/about-us/co-founder-dr-thomas-szasz/quotes-on-therapeutic-state/

"Although we may not know it, we have, in our day, witnessed the birth of the Therapeutic State. This is perhaps the major implication of psychiatry as an institution of social control.”

The other claims such as mental illnesses being a myth have been argued by several psychiatrists mainly Thomas Szasz. He was shunned by the community for his views.

https://youtu.be/r1uDkvqY5Tg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Mental_Illness
 

Happy

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Tell us more Gopher seeing as you have first person experience, and you too Happy.
Sure. What would you like to know?
 

higs

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Sure. What would you like to know?
How were you diagnoses, what are the positive before and after changes you have experienced, how has your life improved exactly?
 

Happy

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I was diagnosed by an adult ADHD specialist psychiatrist.

I've experienced vast improvements with medication. When I take my meds, which I generally only do at work, I'm productive. When I'm not on them (I.e. In my normal state), I am constantly confused and overwhelmed. I can't make decisions. I can't stay on task. Can't keep track of thoughts.

When I take my meds, it's a complete 180. I have the executive function to carry out tasks, both basic and complex. Furthermore, I'm able to organise my thoughts and achieve productive mental output.

There are other benefits to such a diagnosis. For example, the knowledge that my struggles can be attributed to a chemical imbalance allows me to more readily forgive myself when id otherwise feel like a failure. I've had problems with depression in the past that have been caused by such feelings and since I've stopped being so hard on myself, my life has been much happier.

Does that help? I'm happy for you to ask me more.
 

Sinny91

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I was diagnosed by an adult ADHD specialist psychiatrist.

I've experienced vast improvements with medication. When I take my meds, which I generally only do at work, I'm productive. When I'm not on them (I.e. In my normal state), I am constantly confused and overwhelmed. I can't make decisions. I can't stay on task. Can't keep track of thoughts.

When I take my meds, it's a complete 180. I have the executive function to carry out tasks, both basic and complex. Furthermore, I'm able to organise my thoughts and achieve productive mental output.

There are other benefits to such a diagnosis. For example, the knowledge that my struggles can be attributed to a chemical imbalance allows me to more readily forgive myself when id otherwise feel like a failure. I've had problems with depression in the past that have been caused by such feelings and since I've stopped being so hard on myself, my life has been much happier.

Does that help? I'm happy for you to ask me more.

Sounds like me and weed.

Maybe there is credance to this ADD/ADHD bollox.
 

HDINTP

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Yes. ADHD does not exist. The problem here is that the moment you are marked different/unusual "it is a disease" they think and so put you on virtually cocaine in this case. Good joke :) Thankfully my parents realized this very quickly and stopped the "medication".

Lately another doctor would like to "prove" I have psychiatric disorder but with me he is pre-destined to fail...

Many doctors tried to send my to psychiatry in the past. Funny thing is that last psychiatrist said I have no disorder although I am "different" he said. And this is exactly what I am talking about in case of ADHD. It's a nonsense and possibly tool of social control...
 

Haim

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ADHD is a real disease, but that one that is sick is society.
I have experienced exactly what you described when I was taking Ritalin, making my consciousness hyper focused on the boring life of 6-9 years old child in school, I mean there is fucking nothing to do in school breaks and I had zero friends and acquaintance, basically sitting and watching paint dry.ADHD is being not being right by the awful standards of society, really my brain does not want to do the boring,worthless,inefficient tasks you want me to do, well from where I am looking society is not right, they don't fit my standards.

Choice?what choice?my parents did not ask me when I was 5-6 years old, and I did try to not take Ritalin by force, when i was 6 years old I was human as I am now, first grade is a fucking important time it is not like it has no influence on me now.
My parents had choice?also bullshit, society told my parents I had issues, my parents thought I had issues because of society standards(they are part of society), so the next logical step is to go and diagnosis me, from there we have two more possible fuck ups:
1)The test is really really stupid, probable even for what they actually want to test.
2)do you really thing that after paying good money for diagnosis they will tell you you are fine?no never they will always tell you have something, even if you disregard the money they wont tell you "go home" after all there is a reason you went there.
3)when 1 and 2 fail just go to another doctor until success.
 

crippli

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ADHD is a real disease, but that one that is sick is society.
I have experienced exactly what you described when I was taking Ritalin, making my consciousness hyper focused on the boring life of 6-9 years old child in school, I mean there is fucking nothing to do in school breaks and I had zero friends and acquaintance, basically sitting and watching paint dry.ADHD is being not being right by the awful standards of society, really my brain does not want to do the boring,worthless,inefficient tasks you want me to do, well from where I am looking society is not right, they don't fit my standards.

Choice?what choice?my parents did not ask me when I was 5-6 years old, and I did try to not take Ritalin by force, when i was 6 years old I was human as I am now, first grade is a fucking important time it is not like it has no influence on me now.
My parents had choice?also bullshit, society told my parents I had issues, my parents thought I had issues because of society standards(they are part of society), so the next logical step is to go and diagnosis me, from there we have two more possible fuck ups:
1)The test is really really stupid, probable even for what they actually want to test.
2)do you really thing that after paying good money for diagnosis they will tell you you are fine?no never they will always tell you have something, even if you disregard the money they wont tell you "go home" after all there is a reason you went there.
3)when 1 and 2 fail just go to another doctor until success.
Success? To not get diagnosed? For some places, some situations, that may be a proper road for financial aid if that is needed.
 

rainman312

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I've been through the whole ADHD prescription process, about two years ago. I could go ahead and say it was just my parents wanting to replace parenting with drugs, but that's not entirely true, because while they didn't really want to parent (beyond just screaming at me to get better grades, at least initially), they didn't really want drugs either. I pushed for them. I think a lot of it had to do with a Dunning-Kruger-style 'understanding' of ADHD. I read a couple checklists, the wikipedia article, did a few tests, and boom, self-diagnosed. I did this because I was struggling in school for reasons that I couldn't figure out and I needed a solution. Went to the doctor and he prescribed me ritalin, vyvanse (special time-release ritalin), dextroamphetamine, and finally modafinil. A lot of them helped, but they had considerable side-effects and in the end weren't really what I was looking for.

A bit of a side note here:
It's supposed to return patients to a normal baseline, rather than a low per se. "Calm and focused" as higs described it earlier is petty different than being a docile zombie, which to me suggests she was intentionally trying to spin usage of Ritalin in a negative light as a supporting argument that ADD/ADHD is not a real condition and as an extension of the general belief psychiatric drugs are bad and make you into a "zombie". You can make that case far better with antidepressants.
If you look at the brains of legitimate ADHD patients, they're understimulated. They don't get enough dopamine, so they seek out more frequent stimulation via whatever means available, which is made pretty easy with the internet. It interferes with work and then people actually start to care about it. I don't know for a fact if that's the true cause, or if there even is any one single cause, but that's the explanation I've heard quite a few times.

Ritalin did give me the zombie effect. Big-time. Honestly, ritalin treated my 'symptoms' (I should clear this up right here: I don't actually have ADHD) better than anything else I tried, but the zombie effect was ridiculous. The whole world took on this unpleasant canitude, my introversion morphed beyond just mere introversion into total seclusion, even when surrounded by people, my creativity pretty much completely died. Terrible side effects. Might have been an excessive dosage. Vyvanse did the same thing due to being the same drug on a different schedule, essentially. Dextroamphetamine was very unpleasant. Quite a bit of fun to be on for the first three hours or so, but the crash and the hangover were hell. Avoid this at all costs, seriously. Even if you have ADHD. It mostly just made me very...not sure how to put it. It's a bit like a more controlled Ne. Ne normally manifests itself in me via dozens of open tabs about a ton of things, discursive and comedic conversation, the normal stuff. This was like that except without the discursiveness; dozens of open tabs about the same thing. Anyway, not fun. Modafinil was probably the most tolerable of them all. 100mg+ doses gave a bit of a zombie effect. It was a bit like dulled-down hypomania in a pill. Memory was enhanced, cognition was enhanced a bit (it seemed to be enhanced from my standpoint, but if objectively measured, it probably wasn't), arrogance/egotism was greatly enhanced. I distinctly remember driving around the mall parking lot looking for a place to park and thinking about how much smarter I was than everyone else there. After trying all this crap and getting nowhere with it, I realized it probably wasn't ADHD, so I moved on, and eventually developed a similar attitude towards ADHD, the whole 'it's just a capitalist scam!!11!111!!!111' thing. About a year ago, I met a friend with legitimate ADHD. I'm not sure you can really appreciate what it is unless you know someone with it personally or you have it yourself. It's not 'I don't want to do this homework assignment because there are petabytes of far more entertaining things on the internet that I could do instead', it's 'I've got to reread everything I read 5 times because I get distracted half-way through' or myriad other examples I could give. Leaving the car running, with the keys in it, in the parking lot, because you got distracted. When medicated, it's the complete opposite. It's impossible to deny the efficacy of the medication, and in turn the existence of the disease, after having seen it happen.

I think a lot of the claims of ADHD being a scam come from people similar to myself. Thought they had it, didn't, therefore nobody does. Get over yourself, you're not the entire population.

As for the whole "psychiatry is a scam" crowd, no. Some psychiatrists are complete quack scammers who will prescribe anything to anyone if they ask for it. That doesn't invalidate the entire field. Given, it probably extends further than individual psychiatrists to corporations, etc., but there's going to be a degree of corruption in basically any field.

Anyway, that's my experience with all this.
 

higs

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good post
 

Blarraun

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Pretty similar trend to what happened in my country when many people went for fake diagnoses of dyslexia (among other dys) just to get 30 minutes more plus reading and writing aids to work with on their high school exams, even if it meant having to go through a 2 week long therapy cycle.

All those psychologists unable to tell the real ones from fakes, they had to accept everyone, otherwise the system would ignore the problems real ones had and their future opinions on health issues.

I remember being encouraged to make a few more orthographic errors and make my writing less readable to be admitted on it.

With that said, it is a common obstacle here that even if someone has a real problem, they sometimes have to simulate being in a far greater emergency, otherwise they won't be accepted into the hospital or they won't get the help they deserve.
 

rainman312

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With that said, it is a common obstacle here that even if someone has a real problem, they sometimes have to simulate being in a far greater emergency, otherwise they won't be accepted into the hospital or they won't get the help they deserve.
Similarly, in American culture (perhaps others, I'm just more familiar with the US), self-diagnoses, even if the person making the self-diagnosis believes it to be legitimate (i.e. not doing it for extra exam time), leads to a huge amount of issues, among which are people not taking those with valid mental health concerns seriously. Someone could go to a friend for help, telling them they have X mental disorder, and be dismissed by that friend because the friend has dealt with others in the past who have made similar claims in order to get attention, etc. I think self-diagnosis causes quite a number of the problems associated with the discussion of and cultural attitude towards mental health, as we've seen in this very thread with the whole "ADHD is a scam" group.
 

crippli

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I was going to a psychologist for 4 years abit on and off. And the entire time they checked me for schizophrenia(as I found out). In the end though, they put an ADD label + on me, that I didn't quite agree on, they justified it with the findings of a neurologist.

I haven't taken any medication, as I feel more then fine.

What I did was to singularly play on my bad(from their pov) sides while at the psychologist, as may be why I came off as slightly nuts. And it wasn't just one, they had a whole team discussing me, apparently.

I think I would have come out normal, if I had acted normal, but as me personally was interested in learning more about my more eccentric sides, those where what I lived out. And in the end I almost fucked up and got a schizophrenia diagnose. That wouldn't have been good. The interesting part though, was to find out that at least a part of me, is pretty nuts(from their angle), especially if under stress. The question though, how big, or dominant that part is, is unclear.

Personally, I think they are full of shit and it's all bullshit, but from their pov it is all very real. And that was the important lesson I leaned from it. I learned a whole lot how they experience the world. Regardless if I think they are fuckups, it was valuable insight.
 

Happy

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About a year ago, I met a friend with legitimate ADHD. I'm not sure you can really appreciate what it is unless you know someone with it personally or you have it yourself. It's not 'I don't want to do this homework assignment because there are petabytes of far more entertaining things on the internet that I could do instead', it's 'I've got to reread everything I read 5 times because I get distracted half-way through' or myriad other examples I could give. Leaving the car running, with the keys in it, in the parking lot, because you got distracted. When medicated, it's the complete opposite. It's impossible to deny the efficacy of the medication, and in turn the existence of the disease, after having seen it happen.
Yes, this is what real ADHD is like. Simple shit is fucking difficult.
 

HDINTP

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And could someone elaborate on How it is possible to be razor-like focused on topics you are interested in? In that case I would not say we can't talk about ADHD...?
 

Pyropyro

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US DEA states that:

Methylphenidate, a Schedule II substance, has a high potential for abuse and produces many of the same effects as cocaine or the amphetamines. (emphasis mine)

Methylphenidate is Ritalin BTW.

This ought to be used sparingly if at all.
 

crippli

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Like it's been mentioned. Isn't the theory that ADHD is like being on 'cocaine' automatically. RItalia is supposed to bring the body down to a common dosage? So to compare ritalin use for regularly people and ADHD people is inaccurate? Cocaine on the ADHD makes the person average if dosed properly?
 

HDINTP

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I think if you are naturally "disbalanced" as far as brain chemistry is concerned then you are actually balanced. To put it simpy: "Your nature does not need nurture"
 

EyeSeeCold

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Rainman were you misdiagnosed as the hyper active or passive subtype? I am curious of how that's possibly the critical factor in your zombie effect experience after taking Ritalin.
 

Brontosaurie

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Like it's been mentioned. Isn't the theory that ADHD is like being on 'cocaine' automatically. RItalia is supposed to bring the body down to a common dosage?
No, that's not the theory. That's the dumbed-down newspaper headlines. Stimulants don't magically do something different to ADHD brains.
 

EyeSeeCold

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No, that's not the theory. That's the dumbed-down newspaper headlines. Stimulants don't magically do something different to ADHD brains.
What do you mean by that? Aren't ADD people messed up with respect to dopamine?
 

YOLOisonlyprinciple

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Im on medication, and i actually feel it helps me focus.
The increase in focus outweighs any possible loss in intelligence honestly. I used to be afraid of chemicals affecting my brain, but realistically the brain keeps changing and a number of chemicals alter it; so i dont feel it is rational to fear any medication which has been properly studied.
My medication kind of helps me initiate any work i need to do, which is kinda my biggest problem which is just sitting around procrastinating



Im on 2 tablets of methylphenidate a day (10mg)

I kinda trust my doctor, we had over 6-7 hours of general sessions before he prescribed medication.

And the process is supposed to be that i first use the medication, then i am slowly weaned off of it by changing my everyday lifestyle patterns to make a behavioural change to be more productive whilst using the medication to get used to the new behaviour patterns temporarily



But, personally i think one should only be on medication after theyre 22-23 ie, after completing substantial amount of education/ work and actually understand how life works. This allows them to actually understand their situation and offset the benefits of medication in their particular case.
Unless youre retarded (<90IQ), i dont think people younger than that should be on medication, or maybe youre absolutely unable to focus on education to the point that youre going to drop out
 

Pyropyro

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Like it's been mentioned. Isn't the theory that ADHD is like being on 'cocaine' automatically. RItalia is supposed to bring the body down to a common dosage? So to compare ritalin use for regularly people and ADHD people is inaccurate? Cocaine on the ADHD makes the person average if dosed properly?
Both cocaine and ritalin are stimulants for dopamine. They turn chemicals up, not down.

According to the national institutes of mental health, dopamine and norepinephrine stimulants works by increasing said chemicals which are in turn connected with thinking and attention.
 

YOLOisonlyprinciple

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None of this links indicate to me that there is a biological test for diagnosing mental illness. I saw this — "Real Disease vs. Mental “Disorder” Psychiatric disorders are not medical diseases. There are no lab tests, brain scans, X-rays or chemical imbalance tests that can verify any mental disorder is a physical condition."

Find me one test that accurately measures for a mental illness in the body.
Do you mean to say chemical imbalance has no effects on the body?
Then why is it difficult to drive when you drank a lot of alcohol?

I think youre just afraid of the word illness. Illness is just a generic term, which the general population understand differently.

If your lack of focus prevents you from completing the project and getting you accepted from the university you want to get into, then it is a problem.
And medication helps solve the problem, that is all medicine means.
ADD just means there is some chemical imbalance leading to shorter attention spans for BORING topics
But boring things are important in life, and being able to do a boring thing is just as valuable as treating someone who is obese.
I think you should think of the quality of life improvements than the whole "conspiracy" thing.
But yes, one needs to have a choice on the matter, and thats why i personally feel you should not get medications unless youre an adult, unless youre in such a condition that not taking medication will leave you with lesser skills/ knowledge/ education that is required to make a minimum level of standard of life as an adult.
Like say, you want to dropout because you find school to boring, whereas the whole world is built on basic education, you can do whatever you want after that, tho.
Its like saying the baby is taking too long to learn to speak, lets stop teaching him because language itself is a "huge conspiracy/scam"

ADHD is a real disease, but that one that is sick is society.
I have experienced exactly what you described when I was taking Ritalin, making my consciousness hyper focused on the boring life of 6-9 years old child in school, I mean there is fucking nothing to do in school breaks and I had zero friends and acquaintance, basically sitting and watching paint dry.ADHD is being not being right by the awful standards of society, really my brain does not want to do the boring,worthless,inefficient tasks you want me to do, well from where I am looking society is not right, they don't fit my standards.

Choice?what choice?my parents did not ask me when I was 5-6 years old, and I did try to not take Ritalin by force, when i was 6 years old I was human as I am now, first grade is a fucking important time it is not like it has no influence on me now.
My parents had choice?also bullshit, society told my parents I had issues, my parents thought I had issues because of society standards(they are part of society), so the next logical step is to go and diagnosis me, from there we have two more possible fuck ups:
1)The test is really really stupid, probable even for what they actually want to test.
2)do you really thing that after paying good money for diagnosis they will tell you you are fine?no never they will always tell you have something, even if you disregard the money they wont tell you "go home" after all there is a reason you went there.
3)when 1 and 2 fail just go to another doctor until success.
Sorry for the bad parenting you had to face.
Unless it was geniunely impossible for you to focus on something for longer than 5 minutes just because you didnt like the topic, i feel medication is irresponsible unless youre an adult.
 

Analyzer

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Do you mean to say chemical imbalance has no effects on the body?
Then why is it difficult to drive when you drank a lot of alcohol?
The body is made up of chemicals so any manipulation will effect the body. But there is no test to accurately measure an "imbalance" of chemicals in the brain. Even if there was, the standard of what makes something ultimately mentally imbalanced is subjective as your dealing with human behavior. Compare it to something like cancer in the body. A biopsy can detect cancerous growth as it's plainly there.

I think youre just afraid of the word illness. Illness is just a generic term, which the general population understand differently.
Imposter term is a better way to describe it. There's others. The general population(at least in the US) has no clue what the real meaning of the term liberal means.

Like say, you want to dropout because you find school to boring, whereas the whole world is built on basic education, you can do whatever you want after that, tho.
Its like saying the baby is taking too long to learn to speak, lets stop teaching him because language itself is a "huge conspiracy/scam"t.
I use scam as a hyperbole, choice is the important matter in this. Schooling is more of a scam than language. A heuristic to see if something is a scam is to see if it was done through top-down measures like the Prussian model of education most of the world is coerced under, versus a language that is organically formed through bottom-up interactions between individuals.
 

rainman312

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Rainman were you misdiagnosed as the hyper active or passive subtype? I am curious of how that's possibly the critical factor in your zombie effect experience after taking Ritalin.
Passive subtype, because I'm physically lethargic and basically never do anything, or at least I didn't used to. I exercise now, but that's unrelated. I think the zombie effect was more due to the excessively high dosage (I forget, but it was around 20-30mg per five hours, and I'm underweight, I was only about 50kg at the time and 1.8m tall) than anything. I guess technically any dosage would've been an excessively high dosage, since I don't actually have ADHD and thus my required dosage would really be zero.
 
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