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Any female INTPs here?

Tenacity

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I don't have any close friends who are INTP. In fact, I don't have any close friends at all, lol.

One of my closest friends from middle school, I found out, was INTP. But we live in different states now and I haven't reached out to her in years. We're both different but share the commonality of being intelligent and introspective, and we appreciate systems involving complexity and discovery.

It would be awesome to connect and chat, or if you're in your whole mental vortex thing and can't actually chat/put effort into the post, feel free to say something random or something along the lines of "me!".

I'm happy to follow you too, especially since I'm new here :)
 

Tenacity

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Well, the fact that no one has replied here in 36 minutes is, uh, hopeful.
 

Serac

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This introduction is so friendly, well-crafted and socially sophisticated that it cannot possibly come from an INTP

In case you enjoy smileys, here is one: :cool:
 

Tenacity

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This introduction is so friendly, well-crafted and socially sophisticated that it cannot possibly come from an INTP

In case you enjoy smileys, here is one: :cool:
Hahaha. Thanks Serac! I do enjoy smileys/emojis. Btw, I get bursts of "E" as well. Curious what you would type me as if not INTP?

Is it not possible for INTPs to appear friendly, and have well-crafted and socially sophisticated responses?

In "real life" social situations I'm the girl in the corner who doesn't talk to anyone unless approached, or I force myself to talk to others if someone else looks like they could use company -only- if its a networking event where you're expected to talk to someone. But I will 99% not initiate conversation in real life unless drunk. Actually, even if drunk with others, I'll be on my phone writing notes to myself about realizations/abstract thoughts, and will need to take bathroom breaks to simply extrapolate.

In group conversations I will be awkwardly quiet and then suddenly jump in with a question or answer the second I have a chance to say something that will be intriguing and unconventional. I try to avoid group conversations as much as possible because it just feels odd.

It was kind of awkward like that in school too - The professor would be talking and following the agenda, and I'll have the urge to say something and it unleashes some controversy or a new train of thought to the point where students would turn to each other as if either questioning it or wanting to talk about it yet the professor would need to address it quickly or move along for the sake of time. In some instances the professor would be elated and compliment me, and then I'd get some sense of validation from injecting refreshing insights into an ultra-boring lecture.

In many cases I forced myself to lead larger groups of people and felt more of an ENTP in an INTP's body.

I've also extensively studied INTP "weaknesses", one of which is, I believe, emotional/social aptitude, which I conditioned myself to try and become accustomed to over the years.

I know this doesn't sound particularly INTP, but... Gotta stay alpha, ya know?
 

Serac

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well you sound like someone who has mastered the art of living as INTP. And very alpha, of course. I guess I'm similar in the approach in that I cherry-pick the good parts of INTPness and try to not get married to its weaknesses.
 

Animekitty

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Nice to meet you. I am not female nor INTP but we should get along fine. I'll be a substitute. I myself dropped out of school but am totally into a.i. - I can handle conversations yet I never leave my house. I'm a recluse so to say. I almost got with this girl in 2009 but missed the chance. I am 31 so I still have time.
 

Siouxsie

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Hi, not sure if I´m an INTP anymore, since I took the test 5 years ago and I just doubt about everything, lately in my life, I assume it´s some kind of existencial crisis I din´t plan ahead. Is what usually brings me here...

I like to draw, paint and have a remarkable interest in psychoanalisys, lacanian... and I
don´t know what else... I have a cat, she´s 9 years old and named Athena
 

Adaire

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Most of the intp female callout posts tend to be people trying rather desperately to find dates. Alas, the ever-elusive, nigh mystical creature known as the intp female is unlikely to answer such a call. Though if they answer anyone I suppose they would answer you.

I'm not an intp though, I'm a Virgo. I take either about as serious as the other and I suggest you do the same. Or if you must apply pop psychology to your psyche; use the big five.

All the same, I wish you a pleasant stay at the Dark Castle.
 

lolzcry

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Assuming I am in fact an INTP, I would be filling half your criteria and you can just pretend I dont have a Y chromosome. Hope this helps :fingers-crossed:
 

Minuend

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Welcome to the forum. If you get any immediate private messages after stating you're a woman, you should probably ignore them.
 

Serac

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Welcome to the forum. If you get any immediate private messages after stating you're a woman, you should probably ignore them.
Not only that, you should spit in that man’s face
 

Minuend

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Not only that, you should spit in that man’s face
Pretty much. Some men are very thirsty and will message anything that seems female and single. They also come with a lot of issues.

If you sent her a PM, that's what young people these days would call a red flag. It means you're desperate.
 

Serac

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Not only that, you should spit in that man’s face
Pretty much. Some men are very thirsty and will message anything that seems female and single. They also come with a lot of issues.

If you sent her a PM, that's what young people these days would call a red flag. It means you're desperate.
I didn’t send her anything, but to me that sounds a bit nutty.
 

Minuend

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I didn’t send her anything, but to me that sounds a bit nutty.
Sure, if you're not used to a life were people seek you out or hit on you just because of looks or gender. Believe me, if you're not a skeptic as a woman, you'll end up with some creep that takes advantage of you. Just #womanthings

Men might get away easier on that point (?), they don't have to adapt to a life of having to avoid stalkers and other creepy guys who're in it for the abuse. Having to constantly question whether this guy is obsessive and will kill you, or whether he's just nice and loyal.
 

higs

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I'm a lady, used to think I was INTP, then morphed into INFJ. Don't listen to Adaire, she's definitely INTP though :p
 

Tenacity

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well you sound like someone who has mastered the art of living as INTP. And very alpha, of course. I guess I'm similar in the approach in that I cherry-pick the good parts of INTPness and try to not get married to its weaknesses.
Well thank you! I have a long way to go, actually. I still struggle with not having enough impulsivity, I think. Oh, and don't get me started on decision fatigue.

It is really nice to see conversational manners here on the intrnt.
 

Tenacity

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Nice to meet you. I am not female nor INTP but we should get along fine. I'll be a substitute. I myself dropped out of school but am totally into a.i. - I can handle conversations yet I never leave my house. I'm a recluse so to say. I almost got with this girl in 2009 but missed the chance. I am 31 so I still have time.
Lol nice to meet you too animekitty! Sounds good - I also dropped out. I wish I could get more into A.I. and I also never leave my house. Yeah, 31? You definitely have time. Do you believe in the whole ideal compatibility of certain MBTIs kind of thing? I've read something like: INTPs aren't a good match for other INTPs in the long run, but the initial connection would work out. I don't know what would be the ideal match though. I guess that conversation is happening on another thread somewhere around here.
 

Tenacity

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Hi, not sure if I´m an INTP anymore, since I took the test 5 years ago and I just doubt about everything, lately in my life, I assume it´s some kind of existencial crisis I din´t plan ahead. Is what usually brings me here...

I like to draw, paint and have a remarkable interest in psychoanalisys, lacanian... and I
don´t know what else... I have a cat, she´s 9 years old and named Athena
Hey Siouxsie! Thats cool. I too am constantly in a state of existential crisis. Anyone who isn't is, well, probably not inside their heads as much as us. Which can technically be a huge pro. But can also be a con if your lack of self-reflection misguides you in life.

Shall we live... Shall we exist... Why...? It's all mind-boggling.

I used to draw and paint a ton. Pointillism and working with ink pens though has been my recent fave.

Psychoanalysis is awesome. I don't know what lacanian stands for/is but curious to hear more if you'd like to chat about it.

What a lovely cat name, Athena = goddess of wisdom and warfare - How profound :)
 

Animekitty

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Do you believe in the whole ideal compatibility of certain MBTIs kind of thing?
There is a whole theory behind that but I do not understand it. The basic problem is understanding the dynamic in a matrix (16x16) = 256 combinations. You need to study it in real life and get a clue on how people to work in general. But I am sure some combos match perfect and others are catastrophic.

And also a little more to know is you have to identify functions in people.
I am terrible at this because there is no good source on them besides Jung.
 

Tenacity

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Most of the intp female callout posts tend to be people trying rather desperately to find dates. Alas, the ever-elusive, nigh mystical creature known as the intp female is unlikely to answer such a call. Though if they answer anyone I suppose they would answer you.

I'm not an intp though, I'm a Virgo. I take either about as serious as the other and I suggest you do the same. Or if you must apply pop psychology to your psyche; use the big five.

All the same, I wish you a pleasant stay at the Dark Castle.
Hahaha. I do hope they answer!

Lmao. Oh, astrology... Can't even

Why is the Big Five regarded as more highly than MBTI, do you know? An acquaintance recently also told me to do my Big 5. I did it once in college in a formal manner, lost the results, tried to find one online but the test there seemed pretty underdeveloped/too quick to be able to synthesize information into an insightful result.

Thank you, it is truly an honor to be surrounded by other mares of the night.
 

Tenacity

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Assuming I am in fact an INTP, I would be filling half your criteria and you can just pretend I dont have a Y chromosome. Hope this helps :fingers-crossed:
Sure, haha, I am happy to make friends regardless of identity/gender :D Nice to meet you lolzcry :)
 

Tenacity

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Welcome to the forum. If you get any immediate private messages after stating you're a woman, you should probably ignore them.
Thank you Minuend! I will certainly ignore away. Haha :)
 

Tenacity

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Welcome to the forum. If you get any immediate private messages after stating you're a woman, you should probably ignore them.
Not only that, you should spit in that man’s face
Lmaooo. I tend not to care enough to intentionally generate this so-called split let alone let it be spit in someone's face - I'm dehydrated enough already from all the mundane aspects of daily life. So, ignoring it is for me, I guess

I do question how much trollage is committed by the INTP population versus others, though lol
 

Tenacity

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I didn’t send her anything, but to me that sounds a bit nutty.
Sure, if you're not used to a life were people seek you out or hit on you just because of looks or gender. Believe me, if you're not a skeptic as a woman, you'll end up with some creep that takes advantage of you. Just #womanthings

Men might get away easier on that point (?), they don't have to adapt to a life of having to avoid stalkers and other creepy guys who're in it for the abuse. Having to constantly question whether this guy is obsessive and will kill you, or whether he's just nice and loyal.
On that note, I have been stalked before (not here) and it is scary. That said, assuming the messages are not asking for my personal identity or flirtatious, I think being e-friends could work out.

I'd like to avoid anyone becoming obsessive with me though, jeez. I don't think that will happen, though. I'm too high maintenance anyways.
 

Tenacity

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I'm a lady, used to think I was INTP, then morphed into INFJ. Don't listen to Adaire, she's definitely INTP though :p
Oh okay it is actually getting hard to tell who is actually female here haha! Nice to meet you higs :D FJs are so refreshing, haha :)
 

moody

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I'm an INTP, but I've never liked other INTPs that I've met. I think it's because we were too introverted to ever go out of our way to converse with one another. This is why my friends have largely been INTJs, INFPs, or INFJs.
 

Tenacity

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I'm an INTP, but I've never liked other INTPs that I've met. I think it's because we were too introverted to ever go out of our way to converse with one another. This is why my friends have largely been INTJs, INFPs, or INFJs.
Nice to meet you moody, haha. Lol this is exactly why my close INTP friend from when I was younger and I have not spoke for years. We probably won't speak ever, until (maybe) our high school reunion. We even played video games together and never spoke even though we were on the same channel / world.

The two people I speak to most are INFP and ENTP. INTJs are interesting yet perplexing. I wish I knew an INFJ in real life - I feel like that person would end up being a good friend.
 

moody

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I'm an INTP, but I've never liked other INTPs that I've met. I think it's because we were too introverted to ever go out of our way to converse with one another. This is why my friends have largely been INTJs, INFPs, or INFJs.
Nice to meet you moody, haha. Lol this is exactly why my close INTP friend from when I was younger and I have not spoke for years. We probably won't speak ever, until (maybe) our high school reunion. We even played video games together and never spoke even though we were on the same channel / world.

The two people I speak to most are INFP and ENTP. INTJs are interesting yet perplexing. I wish I knew an INFJ in real life - I feel like that person would end up being a good friend.
You just might know one, but so many people are "mistyped" or don't know about MBTI. Trying to type someone is also a slippery slope. Sometimes, the better you know someone, the harder it is to type them because you see all their sides. (At least for me, but that may just be the influence of the N and the P).

You never know! Sometimes just reaching out and asking to call, skype or facetime works wonders. Texts are so non-commital that it's easy to fall out of touch completely if you don't talk in any other form. I'm actually extremely good at keeping up with close friends. Well, I used to be before I got terrible at responding to any and all texts, but I make a point of keeping tabs periodically. I was raised by a slightly-tiger-parent-INFJ, so I guess I'm better at keeping tabs that most people.

Welcome!
 

Nenye

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I'm an INTP female. I never realized it was so rare. Most of my friends are guys so I probably would have never noticed either way. Anyways... HEYO!! ^^
 

Tenacity

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I'm an INTP, but I've never liked other INTPs that I've met. I think it's because we were too introverted to ever go out of our way to converse with one another. This is why my friends have largely been INTJs, INFPs, or INFJs.
Nice to meet you moody, haha. Lol this is exactly why my close INTP friend from when I was younger and I have not spoke for years. We probably won't speak ever, until (maybe) our high school reunion. We even played video games together and never spoke even though we were on the same channel / world.

The two people I speak to most are INFP and ENTP. INTJs are interesting yet perplexing. I wish I knew an INFJ in real life - I feel like that person would end up being a good friend.
You just might know one, but so many people are "mistyped" or don't know about MBTI. Trying to type someone is also a slippery slope. Sometimes, the better you know someone, the harder it is to type them because you see all their sides. (At least for me, but that may just be the influence of the N and the P).

You never know! Sometimes just reaching out and asking to call, skype or facetime works wonders. Texts are so non-commital that it's easy to fall out of touch completely if you don't talk in any other form. I'm actually extremely good at keeping up with close friends. Well, I used to be before I got terrible at responding to any and all texts, but I make a point of keeping tabs periodically. I was raised by a slightly-tiger-parent-INFJ, so I guess I'm better at keeping tabs that most people.

Welcome!
Since you had brought up your tiger-parent-INFJ, I've been thinking about this loosely... I suspected that my mom was INFJ too, but with more consideration I think she is ISFJ.

Can I ask what qualities showed that your parent was high in N?

I can't imagine what else she could be if not ISFJ, as INFJ seemed that it didn't necessarily fit, but it was close. Somehow, I think due to the lack of N there was always an over-focus on materialism/practicality to the point where it pushed me to try and become independent earlier on in my life than some of my peers so I could not only meet her expectation of what successful would be, but have the mental capacity to explore that freedom on my own terms. My mother was always extremely crafty, artistic, and resourceful, with an obligation to care for everyone to the point of exhaustion, then withdraw completely without notice. She was extremely anti-change and the epiphany of a homebody, though the homebody aspect is likely what we have in common most. While she was far from a "tiger mom", she was very conservative when it came to beginning to understand necessary socialization/lifestyle needs (partying, doing new things with friends back when school made that stuff easier) until I garnered enough assertiveness independently to stop caring about some of her dogma that was holding me back from actualizing my potential via mental liberation, etc. That said, she is the best mom I could ever ask for. Seemingly, the upside to the S is that I am now hyper-aware of the inefficiencies in my life due to"mundane" but necessary things to be done like tidying up my room, doing the laundry, washing the dishes, or other things that haven't yet been automated by robots but totally should be.

I think all household chores should be automated, or much more automated, and all interested INTPs (whom I suspect the majority of which would probably be female or nonbinary, though this technically massively benefits any person except for those who have their livelihoods in doing household chores) should band together and make it happen - An all-in-one system. Would be great if it could be powered by solar. The Tesla of household chore automation. This would technically enable a great deal of expectational freedom for us and women around the world.

Re: Going on calls - I do this with some family that are close, I think once every month or two months. But with people I've known for, say, less than 2 years, I don't know if I could muster up that courage to have a phone conversation unless they initially started calling me first on an ongoing basis. And I'd have to -reaaaaallly- like them for me to let them call me on an ongoing basis in the first place.
 

Tenacity

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I'm an INTP female. I never realized it was so rare. Most of my friends are guys so I probably would have never noticed either way. Anyways... HEYO!! ^^
Hey!! :D Nice to meet you Nenye. I've always wanted to be well done or like medium well but when I realized I'll be rare forever, I was like, wow, okay, I better bloody make myself try to understand the majority.

But now I don't have to... as much! Because of this forum. So yeah, INTP pride FTW
 

sushi

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I am male, but i met some other female INTPs in other parts of the internet.

real life is different though, i havent seen any.
 

Tenacity

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I am male, but i met some other female INTPs in other parts of the internet.

real life is different though, i havent seen any.
Nice to meet you sushi!

I feel as if I may not "look INTP". I don't know how much INTPs can be spotted from a distance except for perhaps the tendency to gravitate towards corners/sides of the room.

In terms of apparel I wear a lot of darker/neutral colors with some pops of color to get me out of states of boredom, but still rarely. Sometimes I'll intentionally wear lighter colors to try and affect my mood, then revert to neutral colors. But I can also dress playfully and boldly if it is comfortable for me.
 

moody

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Can I ask what qualities showed that your parent was high in N?
Aha..better question was what WASN'T, so I'm going use your examples and give some contrast.

I think due to the lack of N there was always an over-focus on materialism/practicality to the point where it pushed me to try and become independent earlier on in my life than some of my peers so I could not only meet her expectation of what successful would be
Practicality was never stressed. Everyone worked full time, and was very busy--what was impressed on me the most was doing something wrong when you know how to do it right is unacceptable. I find as I compare my own experiences growing up to others, the skills of creating a steady life for yourself that were emphasized and taught in most of their homes was not in mine. I wasn't disciplined as much for things most other's would be (more standard things like getting angry, or the way I spoke) but I was held accountable for doing anything less than my best. She was never mean about it, but my mom (the INFJ) would never tell me "what a good job I did" if I did not do a good job. And if it were my best, she would pat me on the shoulder and say, "Well. Now you know what you need to work on."

My mother was always extremely crafty, artistic, and resourceful, with an obligation to care for everyone to the point of exhaustion, then withdraw completely without notice. She was extremely anti-change and the epiphany of a homebody, though the homebody aspect is likely what we have in common most. While she was far from a "tiger mom", she was very conservative when it came to beginning to understand necessary socialization/lifestyle needs (partying, doing new things with friends back when school made that stuff easier) until I garnered enough assertiveness independently to stop caring about some of her dogma that was holding me back from actualizing my potential via mental liberation, etc.
The obligation part is true, but instead of withdrawing, mine would become...angry. She'd reach limits without knowing it because there was still things she needed or wanted to do. She was not a homebody at all, and was either over-stressed to the point of wrecking her mental and physical health, or bored. There is no in-between.

My mom has always struggled with appearances. She isn't a shut-in or hermit, and she certain likes being social, but she gets disgusted with people who work more on promoting themselves than actually working, and she can't imagine doing this herself. This has actually caused her a lot of grief in the workplace...just by troubleshooting problems that need to be addressed, she's come across as "calling out" other people and being aggressive. Despite being the most hard working person I've ever met, her career has been tragic due to men with fragile egos feeling the need to "put her in her place," when no offense was ever met. She literally has PTSD due to the emotional abuse she's gone through. I've often wished she was better at social correctness and self-preservation, but she cares way too much about her cause and her work than trying to "save her own ass" and letting the oversensitive, male higher-ups make fatal errors.

Sorry, just something I get very angry about...ANYWAY, the point is social correctness was never stressed as much from her. She had me do more social things when I was a young child of course (as most parents do), but when I was in high school, the most she did was bemoan that I didn't care about school dances. (I can't imagine anything worse). She let me be in the social scene, as long as she understood everything going on. She was quite...aggressive...if she didn't understand something, (a behavior, or how much I was actually working as opposed to reading books), and would be relentless until she did.

When it comes to practicing, (I am a musician), I can relate more to what you've relayed. If I wasn't practicing enough to her, she would psych me out by saying I didn't deserve to play, etc. By the time I was in high school, and then auditioning, the majority of "reminders to practice" had all ceased. She just made it clear to me that I wouldn't get something if my output didn't match my goals. Now I'm the one freaking out if I didn't practice enough! (Like right now)

I do this with some family that are close, I think once every month or two months. But with people I've known for, say, less than 2 years, I don't know if I could muster up that courage to have a phone conversation unless they initially started calling me first on an ongoing basis. And I'd have to -reaaaaallly- like them for me to let them call me on an ongoing basis in the first place.
You got me there! That is fair, I would also not just call someone I hadn't spoken to in two years. I'd start with text or email. And that takes too much effort, so why bother? Let life run it's course.
 

Marbles

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Why is the Big Five regarded as more highly than MBTI, do you know? An acquaintance recently also told me to do my Big 5. I did it once in college in a formal manner, lost the results, tried to find one online but the test there seemed pretty underdeveloped/too quick to be able to synthesize information into an insightful result.

Thank you, it is truly an honor to be surrounded by other mares of the night.
The axes behind MBTI are sound, like the ones in Big Five, but do not cover all the facets of personality. That is why Big Five often divides its traits into sub-traits. MBTI is binary - it consists of dicotomies, which is problematic since people are distributed across them in a bell curve - most people are close to the average. Two INTPs, for instance, could easily be more different than an INTP and an ESFJ, if you tally up the difference between their percentile scores along the axes. Say, you're an INTP with 5% preference for each of your letters, and I'm an ESFJ with 5% preference for each of mine. We are probably more similar than you are to an INTP with absolute preference for each of her letters. Unless you believe in the cognitive functions, that is, and science does not.

Another problem with MBTI (and much of its appeal) is that it tries to say something about how you preferences combine into a personality. MBTI not only describes your personality across 4 letters independent of each other, but tries to say something about how your preferences combine into 1 of 16 personalities. That complicates matters. The theory is more elaborate, which gives room for more mistakes. This ambition to synthesize 4 personality-axes into 1 personality is also cause of the problem I mentioned earlier - MBTI is binary, not taking into account that most people are average. If MBTI made use of trichotomies instead, lumping people 1 standard deviation from the mean together, for instance, that would give rise to 3^4=81 personalities instead of 16. The theory would become even more elaborate, and probably lose contact with reality.

These are some of the reasons why Big Five is better regarded by scientists than MBTI, but I'm sure my answer isn't exhaustive.

Sorry if that was awfully boring, but you did ask... Who's that in your profile picture?
 

Minuend

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That said, assuming the messages are not asking for my personal identity or flirtatious, I think being e-friends could work out.
Yeah, e-friends can be the best friends, some of mine are. Including males, contrary to serac's opinion of me being a male hating spittter x------| I only dislike men who prey or who pretend to be nice or whatever to get close. Just like I dislike women doing the same. Shitty people will be shit
 

Serac

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Out there in the real world men sometimes initiate contact with someone because of the counterparty’s gender. Might be a shocker to some of you but yes, that happens.
 

Serac

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I don’t know why anyone would do that on INTPf of all places, but that’s another subject
 

Minuend

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I don’t know why anyone would do that on INTPf of all places, but that’s another subject
You don't know why anyone would try to hit on someone on a forum for intps or similar? You don't understand how someone who's failing in dating life would seek to various forums to try their luck?

Also, you're pretty naive if you think all men (or women) are just innocently hitting on others. There's so many people looking for someone to control and dominate (without their consent). There's so many people looking for people to fulfill their desires regardless of what negative consequences there are for their target. Which is how pedo's abuse children without a second thought of the children's trauma, their satisfaction is all that matters. The same applies to some adults in relationships, they want what they want, regardless of how traumatic it is for their partners.

Some get horny from raping others and seek such opportunities. Some just want anyone who will fall under their control and think of them as a decent enough person to get into a relationship with. Some enjoy seeing others being uncomfortable and squirm. You are operating on the premise people are just a bit naive and clumsy, while in fact there's a hole array of shitty people who are looking for that one naive person to use and abuse. They excuse themselves for being clumsy or naive, they use other people's good faith.
 

Serac

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Gee and I thought I had a cynical worldview. Let me just tell you that most women I’ve met have had some sort of creepy experiences with men, but not all of them would share your worldview.
 

Minuend

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What is my world view? That some people are seeking the high that comes from other people's suffering? That some people enjoy that? That it's wise to be careful, but also open about people? It's possible to be open to new people, but at the same time be skeptical and try to understand them and how they think and feel. That you shouldn't get giddy about any type of compliment or approach, but because it's not always about you, it's sometimes about them and how they feel approaching you and how you react to them

Where do you draw the line between cynicism and realism?
 

Tenacity

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Can I ask what qualities showed that your parent was high in N?
Aha..better question was what WASN'T, so I'm going use your examples and give some contrast.

I think due to the lack of N there was always an over-focus on materialism/practicality to the point where it pushed me to try and become independent earlier on in my life than some of my peers so I could not only meet her expectation of what successful would be
Practicality was never stressed. Everyone worked full time, and was very busy--what was impressed on me the most was doing something wrong when you know how to do it right is unacceptable. I find as I compare my own experiences growing up to others, the skills of creating a steady life for yourself that were emphasized and taught in most of their homes was not in mine. I wasn't disciplined as much for things most other's would be (more standard things like getting angry, or the way I spoke) but I was held accountable for doing anything less than my best. She was never mean about it, but my mom (the INFJ) would never tell me "what a good job I did" if I did not do a good job. And if it were my best, she would pat me on the shoulder and say, "Well. Now you know what you need to work on."

My mother was always extremely crafty, artistic, and resourceful, with an obligation to care for everyone to the point of exhaustion, then withdraw completely without notice. She was extremely anti-change and the epiphany of a homebody, though the homebody aspect is likely what we have in common most. While she was far from a "tiger mom", she was very conservative when it came to beginning to understand necessary socialization/lifestyle needs (partying, doing new things with friends back when school made that stuff easier) until I garnered enough assertiveness independently to stop caring about some of her dogma that was holding me back from actualizing my potential via mental liberation, etc.
The obligation part is true, but instead of withdrawing, mine would become...angry. She'd reach limits without knowing it because there was still things she needed or wanted to do. She was not a homebody at all, and was either over-stressed to the point of wrecking her mental and physical health, or bored. There is no in-between.

My mom has always struggled with appearances. She isn't a shut-in or hermit, and she certain likes being social, but she gets disgusted with people who work more on promoting themselves than actually working, and she can't imagine doing this herself. This has actually caused her a lot of grief in the workplace...just by troubleshooting problems that need to be addressed, she's come across as "calling out" other people and being aggressive. Despite being the most hard working person I've ever met, her career has been tragic due to men with fragile egos feeling the need to "put her in her place," when no offense was ever met. She literally has PTSD due to the emotional abuse she's gone through. I've often wished she was better at social correctness and self-preservation, but she cares way too much about her cause and her work than trying to "save her own ass" and letting the oversensitive, male higher-ups make fatal errors.

Sorry, just something I get very angry about...ANYWAY, the point is social correctness was never stressed as much from her. She had me do more social things when I was a young child of course (as most parents do), but when I was in high school, the most she did was bemoan that I didn't care about school dances. (I can't imagine anything worse). She let me be in the social scene, as long as she understood everything going on. She was quite...aggressive...if she didn't understand something, (a behavior, or how much I was actually working as opposed to reading books), and would be relentless until she did.

When it comes to practicing, (I am a musician), I can relate more to what you've relayed. If I wasn't practicing enough to her, she would psych me out by saying I didn't deserve to play, etc. By the time I was in high school, and then auditioning, the majority of "reminders to practice" had all ceased. She just made it clear to me that I wouldn't get something if my output didn't match my goals. Now I'm the one freaking out if I didn't practice enough! (Like right now)

I do this with some family that are close, I think once every month or two months. But with people I've known for, say, less than 2 years, I don't know if I could muster up that courage to have a phone conversation unless they initially started calling me first on an ongoing basis. And I'd have to -reaaaaallly- like them for me to let them call me on an ongoing basis in the first place.
You got me there! That is fair, I would also not just call someone I hadn't spoken to in two years. I'd start with text or email. And that takes too much effort, so why bother? Let life run it's course.
Re: "Everyone worked full time, and was very busy--what was impressed on me the most was doing something wrong when you know how to do it right is unacceptable."

I was also urged to do what was "right", but I was a bit rebellious and talked back as I had always been convicted that I would "win" the argument, mostly by digressing that my long term goals were more important, leading to acceptance. That's what happens when logic prevails, I guess.

Re: "She was never mean about it, but my mom (the INFJ) would never tell me "what a good job I did" if I did not do a good job."

Same lol. I learned to persist in life with 0 external validation my entire life.

It gets sad, sometimes, yet it is nice to not need to depend on the outside world to be happy.

Re: "This has actually caused her a lot of grief in the workplace...just by troubleshooting problems that need to be addressed, she's come across as "calling out" other people and being aggressive. Despite being the most hard working person I've ever met, her career has been tragic due to men with fragile egos feeling the need to "put her in her place," when no offense was ever met. She literally has PTSD due to the emotional abuse she's gone through."

THIS. My mother also has basically PTSD and all her memories are flooded with the negativity of those she worked for that took advantage of her. This had an effect on me, since when she would instead take things out on herself instead of speaking up, I had the chance to get really angry at it, learn from it, and not let myself take others' aggression and lack of empathy upon myself. I had to truly learn to turn mental poison into mental energy. I'm still learning today. This self-blame is unfortunately is something that I catch myself doing as well that I actively try to minimize in the day-to-day. But the absolute last thing I want, and the thing I hate the idea of others most is causing them, unintentionally or not, to be hurt and traumatized as a result of a call for efficiency. It tends to happen when I'm forced to work with either a micro-manager, someone who's ambiguity is simply vague and leaving room for huge margins of error, or sheer lack of competence. To be the scapegoat for those in power when the scapegoat in reality hold all truth gets me angry now whereas previously it had left me feeling hopeless about the state of mainstream social dynamics. Seeing these problems encouraged me to pursue leadership positions myself and do everything I believed was more conducive to individualized productivity.

EI IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT, WORLD!

Re: "When it comes to practicing, (I am a musician), I can relate more to what you've relayed. If I wasn't practicing enough to her, she would psych me out by saying I didn't deserve to play, etc. By the time I was in high school, and then auditioning, the majority of "reminders to practice" had all ceased. She just made it clear to me that I wouldn't get something if my output didn't match my goals. Now I'm the one freaking out if I didn't practice enough! (Like right now)"

Wow, yeah - Ultimately I think that kind of conditioning for practice/work ethic can be helpful, especially if reframed with the little filter of logic that tells you that practicing more equates to better results. There are definitely cases where excessive work ethic has led to the opposite effect (burn out, etc.) however that can be mitigated especially if the motivations and goals are your own.

Thanks for helping me consider and compare! I actually don't think the "J" was present in my mother, now. So... You helped me realize that my mom is most likely ISFP.
 

Serac

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What is my world view? That some people are seeking the high that comes from other people's suffering? That some people enjoy that? That it's wise to be careful, but also open about people? It's possible to be open to new people, but at the same time be skeptical and try to understand them and how they think and feel. That you shouldn't get giddy about any type of compliment or approach, but because it's not always about you, it's sometimes about them and how they feel approaching you and how you react to them

Where do you draw the line between cynicism and realism?
Listen to yourself, you're talking about someone "failing in dating life" and in the next breath talking about psychopaths, rapists, pedophiles and sadists. Most men are scared enough as it is about initiating contact with women, and this crazy shit you're writing here is not going to help. Don't force your complexes upon the world.
 

Minuend

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Listen to yourself, you're talking about someone "failing in dating life" and in the next breath talking about psychopaths, rapists, pedophiles and sadists. Most men are scared enough as it is about initiating contact with women, and this crazy shit you're writing here is not going to help. Don't force your complexes upon the world.
[/QUOTE]

Oh my, how horrid. But yeah, obviously there's a difference between those who are socially weak and those who are socially malicious. You're trying to make my perspective into something more extreme than it is. There's plenty of women and men who are well intended, but who don't understand people and mess up in very basic ways.

And at the same time, there's plenty of people who know exactly what they are doing and they do it well. They know when to play the victim, when to play stupid, when to play socially unaware, when to cry etc.

Men being scared? Really? You think the world should stop because some people are scared when taking risks? Men and women take risks approaching people, that does not mean you should never be skeptical or question the very basic lack of social norms.

You're asking too much, you're asking for tolerance beyond what is reasonable. You're asking to be tolerant of very obvious red flags, or bad behavior. You're asking to be tolerant of people who have traits highly correlated with a shitty personality.
 

moody

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I was also urged to do what was "right", but I was a bit rebellious and talked back as I had always been convicted that I would "win" the argument, mostly by digressing that my long term goals were more important, leading to acceptance. That's what happens when logic prevails, I guess.
I was referring more to individual tasks; like if my mom told me to sweep the floor and I did, she always saw a spot i didn't, tell me I didn't sweet, and get mad about how she has to do everything herself. And if it was satisfactory, she wouldn't say anything and ask me to do something else. Honestly, this sounds much harsher than it was--criticisms were never attacking ME, and she was more spacey about it than not as she thought of other things. (It's impossible to get her attention when she's focused on something else....)

You sound like my sibling! They'd argue for the sake of arguing and screaming, my god. I just didn't clash as much, so I never had to deal with what I wanted to do being "challenged." We were left more to our own devices academically and when applying to colleges and whatnot--not completely as she always liked to quiz us on all current state of affairs. She trusted us to know what we needed to do; I can't ever remembering either my sibling or I having to have intervention about that, but it's been real apparent over the years that others have not have the same dynamics.

Same lol. I learned to persist in life with 0 external validation my entire life.

It gets sad, sometimes, yet it is nice to not need to depend on the outside world to be happy.
Allow me my soap box for a hot second: Screw validation! YOU are your validation! Trust yourself to know, becuase no one else will know for you! And your confidence will prompt others TO validate you! Don't compromise your ambitions and drive while waiting for those weak-minded pansies to give their every okay!

Seeing these problems encouraged me to pursue leadership positions myself and do everything I believed was more conducive to individualized productivity.
Good for you!

Wow, yeah - Ultimately I think that kind of conditioning for practice/work ethic can be helpful, especially if reframed with the little filter of logic that tells you that practicing more equates to better results. There are definitely cases where excessive work ethic has led to the opposite effect (burn out, etc.) however that can be mitigated especially if the motivations and goals are your own.

Thanks for helping me consider and compare! I actually don't think the "J" was present in my mother, now. So... You helped me realize that my mom is most likely ISFP.
It's all good, I was never forced to do anything I was exceedingly uncomfortable doing. Never underestimate the psychic abilities of the INFJ. I don't know how she dealt with a kid that had as much anxiety as I did, but she just says "I knew not to do this" and "I knew to do this," because "something told her."

This could be cultural. My mother's family comes from a country on the Mediterranean. She is not a strong J herself, but her interface with her kids reflects the cultural background. Despite being American, even I had a few cultural-communication bridges as a young elementary student. I'd constantly offend people (in different iNTP-oblivious-ways).

It's kind of comical how there's now two completely different corresponding conversations on the thread going on .... Look how popular you are! Jeez, people here get so weird whenever gender comes up.
 

Marbles

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There is good reason to be skeptical of anyone approaching you seeking an intimate relationship. Probably especially so on the internet. There are also plenty sympathetic reasons to approach someone on the internet in the hopes of finding a mate. Let's not make this black and white.

I don't think Minuend overestimates people's predatory tendencies, but I think (s)he underestimates benevolent tendencies. Loads of people find happy relationships online, and a forum gathering like-minded people seems the place to do it.

Seems like a healthy warning, though, Minuend. I wish more people would talk openly about how shitty humans often are. Then maybe there wouldn't be so many victims, and we could build a society better incentivising moral and empathetic behavior. Long term that could even steer evolution towards a kinder species.
 
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