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Guilt

BigApplePi

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INTPs are said not to be good with emotions ... or are they? I didn't know how to label this thread, so I called it, "Guilt." AI posted this on a music thread. It's about a terrible thing. YouTube - Dance with the Devil

If you have ever done something wrong or perhaps just felt you were somehow wrong or bad, can you be saved*? Could this young man have been saved? What is this story about? Is there a way he could have lived with himself? Could the young man be us?

*By "saved", I didn't necessarily mean anything religious. I meant have the guilt removed or assuaged. I was going to name the title, "Can guilt be assuaged?" but changed my mind for some reason.
 
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EyeSeeCold

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If you have ever done something wrong or perhaps just felt you were somehow wrong, can you be saved? Could this young man have been saved? What is this story about? Could the young man be us?
What do you mean by "saved"?
 

EyeSeeCold

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I think it depends on what you did and the effects that resulted from it.

Guilt is an emotional reaction, which means it can go into remission, but at the same time you can go into relapse.

You can have guilt for the initial action, for the results, for the fact that you caused the action in the first place and more if they exist. But your state over time fluctuates as your memory and current theme-of-thought puts the event in the background.

Now if you're saying can we ever be officially saved, and also feel that we're saved, I think it's possible but it requires both emotional and logical(?/rational?) confirmation that everything is alright.
 

ElvenVeil

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ah immortal technique :) good with lyrics imo, although his flow is not always the best.

Anyway, is it possible to be saved? well yes.. I would say that goes without saying. Being saved is, when it comes down to it, an altering of the persons views so that he no longer regards his own actions as terrible as before. Therefore it needs a new input to alter this old view. However being a little realistic, I would say that you should be able to do things that you can not attone for.

As for Billy .. I don't know. It's not really the point of the song. . He reaches a point of no return so according to immortal technique there is no way for him to be saved. As you ask what the story is about; It's main purpose is to function as a critique of society .. The reason why he is living this life of his if on first glance because of his bad upbringing by his mom.. but as it in the end says that he remembers how his mom used to come home late, working hard for nothing. . . ] , then the blame is no longer hers but society. This is Immortal techniques most enjoyed topic. .

He also paraphrases John Miltons Paradise Lost with his 'devils used to be angels that fell from the top' which again would be paralel to society.
 

digital angel

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I agree with ElvnVeil; you can be saved. I think what INTPs need to do is find a good way to cope. I know what works for me. I love my work and being a volunteer tax attorney while I'm looking for work helps. Having something constructive to think about is necessary.
 

Kuu

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The lucky man is the man with bad memory. Forgetfulness is the only respite.
 

EyeSeeCold

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The lucky man is the man with bad memory. Forgetfulness is the only respite.
Isn't it possible to feel guilty and not remember why?
 

a detached retina

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I love Immortal technique, such brilliant stories. He makes some political statements too in some of his songs.

I always wondered if it was literally his mother in this song or if he just saw his mother's face figuratively in this woman.

But yeah guilt and trepidation are two of the worst emotions IMO.
 

BigApplePi

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I thought about this some more and felt something was missing. Sure there are powerful emotions invoked when the young man realized it was his mother. But is guilt the right word? Why do you and I respond with horror ... if that's what happened?

What about REGRET? The young man was only doing what he wanted: he wanted to join the group of his buddies. If he had raped a non-person ... say a dummy doll ... just committed the act ... not hurt anyone ... he would have been "in." He made a mistake. A big mistake. He regretted what happened. Could that be partly why WE react?

I have made dozen of mistakes during my lifetime. I've made foolish decisions which could have made things better today ... in my imagination. Haven't YOU ever made mistakes which you sorely regret? I'm not even sure I can talk about them, but here's one ... and it probably seems so minor to you:

When I was in high school there was one elective: Ancient history or biology. I could see that biology was the more useful pick, but I disliked school. I heard Ancient history was the easier so I picked that. Today I've picked up some biology. But since I never took it formally there is a lot I am missing ... things I could find useful and want to know. I didn't benefit by the history course either as I refused to read the homework ... not once. So in the sense I didn't do anything much wrong I still have regret over my actions. The young man who raped his mother was likewise going to have a permanent regret.
 

crippli

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Isn't birth just the start of a countdown timer to death?

And sure. If he had managed to ignore those feelings of having done wrong for a bit longer, it would have faded into memory as everything else. I don't think it is possible to have true lifelong guilt. No matter the horror you inflict upon others or yourself. When the guilt trip comes, if you can survive the the first, second and maybe third wave, you should be fine, although you never know when that timer runs out. The virgin act is always what will bring about the strongest emotional reaction. At some point it only becomes habit or a distant memory.

I think the guy in the song is being a drama queen. The guilt won't last him forever. And if he wants to avoid these feelings of guilt he should think before he acts. There are also I think a lot of people who live for these emotional ups and downs.
 

EyeSeeCold

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Isn't birth just the start of a countdown timer to death?
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. KJV
 

Zmaster

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What if you became addicted to meditation but everytime you meditated there was an earthquake somewhere in the world. How would you rationalize your own needs for peace of mind versus potential calamity for the rest of the world? Would you allow yourself to go crazy so that no one would get hurt? What your talking about is a person trying to make progress in the only direction they know. All motivations either abruptly end or resolve without consideration for collateral damage. Kurt Cobain comes to mind.
 

BigApplePi

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Isn't birth just the start of a countdown timer to death?
No. I would say birth is a counting up to growth. Death comes later.
And sure. If he had managed to ignore those feelings of having done wrong for a bit longer, it would have faded into memory as everything else. I don't think it is possible to have true lifelong guilt. No matter the horror you inflict upon others or yourself. When the guilt trip comes, if you can survive the the first, second and maybe third wave, you should be fine, although you never know when that timer runs out. The virgin act is always what will bring about the strongest emotional reaction. At some point it only becomes habit or a distant memory.

I think the guy in the song is being a drama queen. The guilt won't last him forever. And if he wants to avoid these feelings of guilt he should think before he acts. There are also I think a lot of people who live for these emotional ups and downs.
Not convinced about the drama queen either. The thing is life is meant to be ongoing and grow, not die. If what one does ruins that growth, how can one progress until one completely remakes themselves? That is why guilt operates. It's an ongoing mess up of the present.
 

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Do you think it's fair to say the Guy saved himself by jumping off the roof. I think it was more a matter of the guy deciding he couldn't live with himself (and so seeking relief) than him believing he didn't deserve to live.
 

BigApplePi

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Do you think it's fair to say the Guy saved himself by jumping off the roof. I think it was more a matter of the guy deciding he couldn't live with himself (and so seeking relief) than him believing he didn't deserve to live.
Yup. His whole life was destroyed. For the first time, now that I think of it, here is a good place for the "born again" religious schema even though I am not personally a participant. Christ will forgive anything. That would be a good alternative to jumping off the roof, but at the time he didn't know about it.
 

crippli

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No. I would say birth is a counting up to growth. Death comes later.
Not convinced about the drama queen either. The thing is life is meant to be ongoing and grow, not die. If what one does ruins that growth, how can one progress until one completely remakes themselves? That is why guilt operates. It's an ongoing mess up of the present.
Oh. I probably don't understand guilt all that well. Wouldn't it be better if he made an attempt to correct the action he regretted instead? Not be so self centered? It's all about him, the whole way.

This scenario is backwards to me. If he didn't regret that's when he should have jumped. So with this action he is making the situation worse, as who is going to stop these others from doing this again? It must be ill logic that to solve the problem, he is making the problem a bigger problem?
 

BigApplePi

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Oh. I probably don't understand guilt all that well. Wouldn't it be better if he made an attempt to correct the action he regretted instead? Not be so self centered? It's all about him, the whole way.

This scenario is backwards to me. If he didn't regret that's when he should have jumped. So with this action he is making the situation worse, as who is going to stop these others from doing this again? It must be ill logic that to solve the problem, he is making the problem a bigger problem?
crippli. I'm not sure. He jumped because the rape and murder and mother loss consequence filled his mind and couldn't be reversed while in that emotional situation, whatever name we give to the emotions. Everything was passion. There was no time to think if say he were Catholic, "All I have to do it do make a confession and everything will be washed away and I can start over."

Yes passion is about oneself. Passion may at times be enjoyable but highly risky. That must be why man developed thought.
 

Bird

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BigApplePi, I really think that humans feel such guilt
purely from conditioning.

Throughout the era of humans we have been domesticating
ourselves through the use of guilt and shame. I didn't watch
your youtube video and I won't be watching it until tomorrow
at the earliest. I did however read the lyrics and this is
quite the story. I am going to assume that the references to
being haunted by the devil symbolize guilt and probably
shame.

I genuinely feel that the only reason that this man feels bad
for what he did is because of human conditioning and out of
self-interest. He does not want to spend his life in prison. I
hear life in prison is pretty shitty-like on the danger zone.


It's where we put those who aren't obliging and civilized. Who
would want that if they have experienced how horrible it can
be.

Guilt and shame are accessed through fear.



I don't think that INTPs don't feel things. I think that is a wrong
assumption. I have a hard time imagining that one escapes feeling
an emotion over their entire life-span. If they've lived passed their
infancy, that is.


Regret is an emotion that you can never escape. As animals we
are never satisfied with what we have in regards to anything, it
is the drive that keeps a species going. We regret for this very
reason, no matter what you do you will always regret not doing
something else because evolutionarily that is how we are
programmed.
 

BigApplePi

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Regret is an emotion that you can never escape. As animals we
are never satisfied with what we have in regards to anything, it
is the drive that keeps a species going. We regret for this very
reason, no matter what you do you will always regret not doing
something else because evolutionarily that is how we are
programmed.
Hi Bird,

There are big regrets and there are little ones. Suppose I add 3+4 and get 6. I discover my error and regret it. But I don't let it get to me. I realize I can make mistakes ("To err is human") and forgive myself.

Same with big mistakes. They don't happen as often and have bigger impact. But why can't we forgive ourselves?
 

Bird

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Conditioning.
 

Solitaire U.

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Yup. His whole life was destroyed. For the first time, now that I think of it, here is a good place for the "born again" religious schema even though I am not personally a participant. Christ will forgive anything. That would be a good alternative to jumping off the roof, but at the time he didn't know about it.
Picking up some guilt transference vibes from you, which is quite a step beyond mere empathy. Are we reaching for some higher level of guilt, perhaps related to injustice or...
 

GYX_Kid

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i love that song.

it seems to be not as much about the emotional feeling of guilt as it is about karma and irony, which gets played by life like a true bitch sometimes. not by means of "luck" or "magic" really, but any risky endeavor that involves harm, chaos and "dancing with the devil" often backfires or backlashes due to factors such as social economics combined with the subconscious cognitive dissonance/twisting of internal values that tends to occur after committing an act that would alter self-concept, guilt, justification, moral affiliation, etc.

especially in william's case, since he aspired to be a hardcore nigga and was not experienced with living that lifestyle before doing what he did.
 

Yet

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In order to be 'saved' you have to be able to live with it. I do not think guilty feelings about something evaporate but you do not want them to dominate your thoughts all the time. Everybody has little and big things they feel guilty about. Situations where they did not act upon their internal standards and feel shame and guilt about, or regret.
There is a difference in people in the measurement they are (pre)occupied with negative feelings (guilt, melancholy, sadness, anger, shame, regret, etc.) The ones who do it a lot are prone to depression.

You are very right if you state that 'born again' movements fulfill a role in psychological survival of people who have to deal with something that goes beyond their capabilities to deal with on their own (for some it is just living, for others a hideous crime or addiction problems or ... or ...). For Christ is forgiving them for things they can probably not forgive themselves for on their own. He functions as some sort of intermediair.
 

wadlez

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If you have ever done something wrong or perhaps just felt you were somehow wrong or bad, can you be saved*? Could this young man have been saved? What is this story about? Is there a way he could have lived with himself? Could the young man be us?
LOL, this song could of been written by a teenager. Its hilarious that your analysing this so much. I remember when I was younger and thought this type of shit was really cool and looked up to African American rappers, its sad looking at them now I've grown up and seeing that there all so old and still have the mind I had when I was 16.

Anyway, I think most people should stop thinking there are deeper meanings to songs as their not going to be based on some founded psychology or philosophical writing. In fact most songs are actually retarded when you pay attention to the lyrics as the words are meant to suit the song like an instrument rather than purvey some deep and noble truth.
Most musicians having chosen music as there profession, and for living the famous lifestyle, have way less experience of reality than your average man. I'd continue but you get the gist of what I'm saying
 

Bird

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LOL, this song could of been written by a teenager. Its hilarious that your analysing this so much. I remember when I was younger and thought this type of shit was really cool and looked up to African American rappers, its sad looking at them now I've grown up and seeing that there all so old and still have the mind I had when I was 16.

Anyway, I think most people should stop thinking there are deeper meanings to songs as their not going to be based on some founded psychology or philosophical writing. In fact most songs are actually retarded when you pay attention to the lyrics as the words are meant to suit the song like an instrument rather than purvey some deep and noble truth.
Most musicians having chosen music as there profession, and for living the famous lifestyle, have way less experience of reality than your average man. I'd continue but you get the gist of what I'm saying


I think you misunderstand. The song is just an
example. He is really analysing why humans
feel guilt as it's not a "natural" emotion, but a
learned.
 

wadlez

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Yeah its not learned, its inherent in humans due to our evolution as social animals.
Learnt that in psych. To understand, look at the difference between dogs and cats keeping in mind that dogs were pack animals before being domesticated by man. Notice a missing (or very undeveloped) range of emotions? This is why its not much use telling off cats when they do something wrong but immediately effective on dogs
 

Bird

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Dogs are still pack animals...


Guilt is the result of conditioning.
It is learned. Do infants feel guilty
for crying all night and keeping
their parents up? No. Do children
feel bad for disrupting their parent's
sleep because of a nightmare? Yes.


Human evolution is reliant upon self
domestication and conditioning.
 

BigApplePi

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It's interesting how though dogs and cats are very different, I have a dog and cat that play together as equals ... and the dog outweighs the cat by 40 pounds.
 

wadlez

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Dogs are still pack animals...
Yep, obviously. Does this negate my point somehow or did it throw you off from understanding it?

Guilt is the result of conditioning.
It is learned. Do infants feel guilty
for crying all night and keeping
their parents up? No. Do children
feel bad for disrupting their parent's
sleep because of a nightmare? Yes.


Human evolution is reliant upon self
domestication and conditioning.
LOL, I love how you state this as fact and like your enlightening me by saying this.
A babies brain has not yet developed to be able to utilise the intuitive subsystem for recognising guilt, along with many other instinctual social systems we have identified in the brain. Your argument is like saying that sexual attraction is learned because babies don't have it. My god that was obvious

There, I answered you, you have no idea how charitable that was of me.
 

BigApplePi

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wadlez. Whatever happened to Ali?:confused:
 

wadlez

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I was projecting a character onto the image which I assumed people would perceive of me when they read my posts.
At first this believed shared perception of the person behind the posts was based close to reality, as I based this on peoples reactions to actual statements that I made. As my posts and subsequent estimates of peoples reactions became tied with the image, due to it being consistently associated with that avatar, I found this view to become more and more delusional. This was because the face in the avatar caused my mind to give it more assumed human features than a neutral object would, which came to replace my previously rational assumptions. These projections of human traits slowly brought it independence and it started to fragment from my ego into a life of its own. To combat this I decided to change my avatar more regularly.
 

ckm

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Yeah its not learned, its inherent in humans due to our evolution as social animals.
Learnt that in psych. To understand, look at the difference between dogs and cats keeping in mind that dogs were pack animals before being domesticated by man. Notice a missing (or very undeveloped) range of emotions? This is why its not much use telling off cats when they do something wrong but immediately effective on dogs
Though the dogs vs. cats thing is interesting, just because you learned something doesn't make it true. Academics tend not to hold universal opinions.
 

BigApplePi

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So that explains it, lol. There could be another aspect. I recall you as "wadlez." That is a symbol in its own right. When you change the avatar, whatever perception is given by the avatar changes when you change the avatar so that as a symbol of what you underneath are risks a change also. People who would be want to change their avatar every month, if I don't know them, are going to be lost to me if I forget their handle ... creating a potential identity crisis.

I was projecting a character onto the image which I assumed people would perceive of me when they read my posts.
At first this believed shared perception of the person behind the posts was based close to reality, as I based this on peoples reactions to actual statements that I made. As my posts and subsequent estimates of peoples reactions became tied with the image, due to it being consistently associated with that avatar, I found this view to become more and more delusional. This was because the face in the avatar caused my mind to give it more assumed human features than a neutral object would, which came to replace my previously rational assumptions. These projections of human traits slowly brought it independence and it started to fragment from my ego into a life of its own. To combat this I decided to change my avatar more regularly.
 

Bird

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Yes, Wadlez, I do have some troubles understanding.


You said
To understand, look at the difference between dogs and cats keeping in mind that dogs were pack animals before being domesticated by man.
Your use of the past tense form of was is what threw me
off. I now realize that you are not implying that dogs are
no longer pack animals.

From what I gather your whole premise hinges on the fact that
cats are not social creatures nor did they live in "packs"
before humans came around. This I disagree with though
they were not as social as dogs, cats in their own rights are
social creatures and pack animals. Nearly every animal is. We just
choose to define "pack animals" as animals that live in groups
greater than two. I do agree however that cats and dogs behave
differently though this thread was not started to analyze cats and
dogs and I don't really think the comparison is valid due to the
differences between human brains and cat/dog brains.




Cats living together in small "packs" is in application to the
second pillar of evolution: survival by cooperation. It is the
species' innate drive to survive that causes animals to live in
groups. However small they may be. Though I am not trying
to imply that you do not know this. I am just stating for
the sake of clarity.


LOL I love how you state this as fact and like your enlightening me by saying this.
That was not how I intended to come off. I am sorry that
you felt that way. I was replying to a thread my thoughts
and opinions and beliefs, not trying to enlighten you.

You state things as fact mentioning that you've learned this
so it must be true, even though facts are just opinions.
I find this statement of yours to be doubly ironic now.
Thank you for the amusement.

There, I answered you, you have no idea how charitable that was of me
I would like to point out that you first addressed me.
You addressed me and then felt no need to give me
your time. You must feel much superior to me.
Please do not address me if you are not interested in
hearing my thoughts. I wish to have discussions.
 

BigApplePi

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Hi Bird,

When wadlez speaks that way I never take it too seriously or personally. It's just his style of speaking.

Comment on cats and dogs. I'm not making a study of who is a pack animal at this point, but I would like to point out that guilt exists in a social environment. So I propose the the more "pack" one is, the more chance to feel guilty. Oppositely, the more loner one is, the less chance to feel guilty.
 

SkyWalker

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bird>you are heartless in the way you analyze here, i dont like it

although disguised in ganster rap, this song is so deep! wow!

if you kill your own origin you die.
chasing false-promises leads to extinction/self-destruction.
 

Ex-User (4771)

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I love this song btw, i heard it about year or so ago i believe. The fact that it was fucked up and true sparked my interest
 
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