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How would the various types fare in a military setting?

The Grey Man

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Particularly the introverted intuitives.

How would the types adjust to a full-time job in a military?

How about part-time/reserves?
 

scenefinale

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ESTJ and ISTJ tend to do quite well.

It is predominantly sensing types.

I would highly suggest Generation Kill to get a better sense of it. SgtMaj Sixta is a prime example of ESTJ success in an enlisted career.
http://youtu.be/-oF0XYRhRvA
 

nanook

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I would adjust roughly as well to being tortured by a fucking drill instructor as the fat guy in full metal jacket. But don't visualize me looking like the actor who plays him.

In a war scene i might perform about as well as Cpl. Upham (Jeremy Davies)

I relate to the character in Braveheart, who sneaks up on him in a forest, then saves his life. Chaotic Neutral. Similarly the character shkelgin who offers to feed dracula in dracula untold. Which is to say i would only risk my ass willingly, if i felt that it's a very efficient investment. Or in Robin Hood (1984) the guy with two swords, Nasir. (Mark Ryan).

I have little experience with battle. My initial instinct is to run fast, change positions constantly and attack constantly. Which is getting me killed 15 times in 15 minutes of Paint Ball/Laser Tag. I would have to learn to hide my ass much more, but my anxiety is stronger in hiding, so i run away from fear and into open fire. Like this guy in Hercules.

Germany would not have me as a soldier, even if i wanted to enlist. But i have heard that ISIS likes innocent little boys.

Seriously, there is no doubt that i should become a paramedic. I would be more likely to risk my life to save people, than to shoot them. Plus i get my hands on morphine.
 

Yellow

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I think it would depend on the career path in the military, and the nation they are enlisting with. I am going to go out on a limb and assume that not every nation's military puts the same emphasis on being an aggressive automaton, and even in the US, there are some military careers that outside a brief boot-camp experience are just fine for a good number of types.
 

The Grey Man

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ESTJ and ISTJ tend to do quite well.

It is predominantly sensing types.

I would highly suggest Generation Kill to get a better sense of it. SgtMaj Sixta is a prime example of ESTJ success in an enlisted career.
I might check that out. Might be a better companion to Band of Brothers than The Pacific.

INTJ > all other INXX
Because of the preference for extroverted thinking?

I would adjust roughly as well to being tortured by a fucking drill instructor as the fat guy in full metal jacket.
But don't visualize me looking like the actor who plays him.

In a war scene i might perform about as well as Cpl. Upham (Jeremy Davies)

I relate to the character in Braveheart, who sneaks up on him in a forest, then saves his life. Chaotic Neutral. Similarly the character shkelgin who offers to feed dracula in dracula untold. Which is to say i would only risk my ass willingly, if i felt that it's a very efficient investment. Or in Robin Hood (1984) the guy with two swords, Nasir. (Mark Ryan).

I have little experience with battle. My initial instinct is to run fast, change positions constantly and attack constantly. Which is getting me killed 15 times in 15 minutes of Paint Ball/Laser Tag. I would have to learn to hide my ass much more, but my anxiety is stronger in hiding, so i run away from fear and into open fire. Like this guy in Hercules.
When it comes to battle, we probably all have gut instincts that are likely to get us, or somebody else killed. Probably why drill sergeant torture exists in the first place: to get recruits thinking and acting in a disciplined, combat-proven manner. Of course, imposing codes of conduct on introverts can cause problems, as we like to be independent.
 

Jennywocky

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Because of the preference for extroverted thinking?
That and willingness to overtly work within the structure; I think ENTJs are probably subordinate, they'll do better at higher levels.

When it comes to battle, we probably all have gut instincts that are likely to get us, or somebody else killed. Probably why drill sergeant torture exists in the first place: to get recruits thinking and acting in a disciplined, combat-proven manner. Of course, imposing codes of conduct on introverts can cause problems, as we like to be independent.
^^ this. Yes, the imposition of codes isn't very much a fave of INxx's.

But in battle, you don't get "retries." It's not a video game. It's why airplane pilots do simulators, as a similar example. No matter how good you are, you don't want to be "winging it," you want to have enough accurate experience to just be able to respond appropriately rather than runnign around like a freaking berserker or rabbit getting your team and/or yourself killed and/or failing to meet your mission objectives. It should all be reflexive at that point, with the ability to assess a new situation and see which known pattern is likely to provide best success at a moment's notice.

In this sense, being thorough so that people have some reflexive memory of what to do in given situations is very useful when there is no time to sit back and ponder.
 

The Grey Man

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I think it would depend on the career path in the military, and the nation they are enlisting with. I am going to go out on a limb and assume that not every nation's military puts the same emphasis on being an aggressive automaton, and even in the US, there are some military careers that outside a brief boot-camp experience are just fine for a good number of types.
This seems to be the case here in Canada. The explicitly combat-oriented trades (infantry, armored, artillery, combat engineers, etc.) place far more emphasis on subordination and aggressiveness, but all personnel need to pass basic training.

That and willingness to overtly work within the structure; I think ENTJs are probably subordinate, they'll do better at higher levels.
Yeah. I know an INTJ who seems to get enjoyment out of maximizing his performance within the parameters set by other people/groups. He thinks I'm strange because I want to understand and transcend such structures, even as I exist within them. We each think the other is missing the point of the situation; I say he's being absurd, He says I'm being unrealistic.

For example, when we were in school together, we might both have been assigned to write an essay. The INTJ would have carefully fulfilled every requirement for and expectation of the paper, padding it so that so that it would exceed the minimum number of words. He would barely believe what he was writing (internal apathy), but he'd get an "A" (external success), joking to me that, "I don't have to write a good essay, just a long one." As for me, I would initially adhere to the proper format, but the exercise would inevitably turn into one in perfectionism, an effort on my part to crystallize some underlying truth and present it as completely and as economically as possible, with comparatively little concern for the manner in which the product was presented. I would often get a poor mark (external failure), but be satisfied that I'd described the subject matter in a logical fashion (internal success).

I'm probably an INTP btw.

Yes, the imposition of codes isn't very much a fave of INxx's.

But in battle, you don't get "retries." It's not a video game. It's why airplane pilots do simulators, as a similar example. No matter how good you are, you don't want to be "winging it," you want to have enough accurate experience to just be able to respond appropriately rather than runnign around like a freaking berserker or rabbit getting your team and/or yourself killed and/or failing to meet your mission objectives. It should all be reflexive at that point, with the ability to assess a new situation and see which known pattern is likely to provide best success at a moment's notice.

In this sense, being thorough so that people have some reflexive memory of what to do in given situations is very useful when there is no time to sit back and ponder.
Definitely. Discipline is the mark of a successful fighting force. If some wishy-washy INxx's aren't up to the challenge, so be it!
:hoplite_spear_yell::hoplite_spear_kill_2:

Still, people of theoretically unsuitable types should still be able to find success at skewering brigands.
 

The Grey Man

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Related to this is that I get the impression that a surprising number of INTP's join the military. Out of desperation I'd guess.
 

The Grey Man

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Related to this is that I get the impression that a surprising number of INTP's join the military. Out of desperation I'd guess.
Interesting theory. But what are they desperate for? A feeling of purpose that they can't self-induce, and/or structure that they can't impose on themselves? I know that I sometimes lament my lack of productivity (and on a fundamental level, identity) when left to my own devices. Maybe it's the prospect of fraternity. Not all INTP's want to be solitary, even if they tend to be so.

Surely, with some military INTP's, patriotism/sense of duty is a factor.

One military member told me that there are three kinds of people in the military (I think he was specifically referring to combat arms, as he was in artillery): psychopaths, patriots, and people who can't do any other job. He said he was a combination of all three! I told him that there must also be some compulsive organizers in such a stereotypically inflexible environment.
 

scenefinale

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Related to this is that I get the impression that a surprising number of INTP's join the military. Out of desperation I'd guess.
You can reach your keyboard all the way from atop that high horse of yours? Highly developed Si (which I could imagine a military scenario would produce) is, in my opinion, what separates the "mediocre" INTPs from the great. Discipline, will-power, and developed confidence, are not to be underestimated. Granted there are other ways of achieving that but perhaps the OP values genuine leadership traits (something which you admitted to lacking in another thread) or what have you.

Not saying I would/any INTPs should join but wow, open your mind. That being said, I don't imagine the military would be very fun for an IN__.
 

TheManBeyond

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infps will kill themselves after seeing how cruel war is
entps will fight among themselves for eating their dead friends body parts
 

The Grey Man

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You can reach your keyboard all the way from atop that high horse of yours? Highly developed Si (which I could imagine a military scenario would produce) is, in my opinion, what separates the "mediocre" INTPs from the great. Discipline, will-power, and developed confidence, are not to be underestimated. Granted there are other ways of achieving that but perhaps the OP values genuine leadership traits (something which you admitted to lacking in another thread) or what have you.

Not saying I would/any INTPs should join but wow, open your mind. That being said, I don't imagine the military would be very fun for an IN__.
I agree wholeheartedly with this post. I think the leadership potential of INTP personalities is highly underrated, and it should be developed, not squandered.
 

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You can reach your keyboard all the way from atop that high horse of yours? ... Not saying I would/any INTPs should join but wow, open your mind. That being said, I don't imagine the military would be very fun for an IN__.
OK, you blast me for thinking that the military probably isn't made for INTP's - a common enough opinion from what I gather, yet in the next breath say it wouldn't be very fun for an IN, and that you, nor any should join.

I've heard INTP's are logical too.
 

The Grey Man

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OK, you blast me for thinking that the military probably isn't made for INTP's - a common enough opinion from what I gather, yet in the next breath say it wouldn't be very fun for an IN, and that you, nor any should join.

I've heard INTP's are logical too.
It looks to me like he disagreed with your idea of what drives INTP's to join the military, not the notion that it's not the optimal choice for them, provocative "high horse" accusation notwithstanding.
 

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It looks to me like he disagreed with your idea of what drives INTP's to join the military, not the notion that it's not the optimal choice for them, provocative "high horse" accusation notwithstanding.
Either case it seemed uncalled for, "Out of desperation I'd guess" is a short, obviously uncertain toss off, hardly worth the vitriol.

Here's a video worth watching, from a probable S type to the INTP's he sees in the military

INTP's, why?
 

Nick

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^nothing but garbage, except the eyes, he hit the nail on the head with that one.
 

scenefinale

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OK, you blast me for thinking that the military probably isn't made for INTP's - a common enough opinion from what I gather, yet in the next breath say it wouldn't be very fun for an IN, and that you, nor any should join.

I've heard INTP's are logical too.
Not all INTPs are the same as you nor were they raised in the same environment. Not all INTPs need a job programming or in theoretical work. My point was the military offers steady pay, leadership experience, and lots of other opportunity.

My best INTP-friend I've had, someone I would even consider a mentor (the one responsible for teaching me about personality), joined the military and he's actually pretty well off, and I don't consider it to have been an act of desperation at all. Yeah he was miserable probably the whole time but it paid off. That builds character. He has the discipline to achieve anything he sets his mind to, his college is now paid for in full, and he had opportunity to travel the world (not sure where exactly but I know he was in Asia for a while), while working a job with a secret clearance to god only knows what kind of technology. Oh and I'm pretty sure he is a black-belt in whatever they practice.

So my point was yeah the military is obviously not for everybody, I wouldn't do it but I have much respect for my friend who has and I think we can agree what you said was disrespectful. I'm over it, you're entitled to your opinion.
 

The Grey Man

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Either case it seemed uncalled for, "Out of desperation I'd guess" is a short, obviously uncertain toss off, hardly worth the vitriol.

Here's a video worth watching, from a probable S type to the INTP's he sees in the military

INTP's, why?
He says "INTP's", but he seems to be describing one guy. Still, some of the clichés apply. "Why are you all nihilists? Stop that."

^nothing but garbage, except the eyes, he hit the nail on the head with that one.
Hey, you have an eye-themed avatar too.

My best INTP-friend I've had, someone I would even consider a mentor (the one responsible for teaching me about personality), joined the military and he's actually pretty well off, and I don't consider it to have been an act of desperation at all. Yeah he was miserable probably the whole time but it paid off. That builds character. He has the discipline to achieve anything he sets his mind to, his college is now paid for in full, and he had opportunity to travel the world (not sure where exactly but I know he was in Asia for a while), while working a job with a secret clearance to god only knows what kind of technology. Oh and I'm pretty sure he is a black-belt in whatever they practice.
It seems INTP's can in fact benefit from military experience. I suspect it's hard on you regardless of your type.
 

redbaron

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I think most INTP's probably would benefit from military experience actually.
 

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So my point was yeah the military is obviously not for everybody, I wouldn't do it but I have much respect for my friend who has and I think we can agree what you said was disrespectful. I'm over it, you're entitled to your opinion.
Lol you suck you fucking "im so over this shit shit and totally cooler than you are despite the fact that I got upset for no reason based on a misinterpretation on my part which makes it pretty obv I'm a tard with prestige issues but nevermind that!"
 

EyeSeeCold

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I'm not necessarily opposed to the discipline or explicit hierarchy, if it only involved that I suspect I'd be able to benefit from it in the long term. However I neither morally nor politically* support the idea of international militaries having the right violate humanity. Honestly I fear I'd end up as another statistic for suicide.

But yeah if it wasn't for the killing, psy ops etc everything else the military does wouldn't be so bad. But if I liked the infrastructure-building humanitarian aspects I suppose I could just join the Peace Corps. I only have cursory knowledge of the specific positions which may or may not involve direct combat so I can only speak generally.
 

scorpiomover

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Interesting question. As it happens, some months back, I came across a US military survey of MBTI types in the military. Quite a few were INTJs and INTPs, and were active in combat positions.
 

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Interesting question. As it happens, some months back, I came across a US military survey of MBTI types in the military. Quite a few were INTJs and INTPs, and were active in combat positions.

Now that would be interesting. I did a search and found one study. Pretty small, 80 military executives and 113 military members (and it's from 1993). Preface this with the fact that the tests are subject to errors as MBTI tests aren't that accurate. The best way is to get typed by a MBTI professional or a good layman.

At any rate they found 6%/executives and 7%/rank tested as MBTI. To judge this you have to compare to the percentages INTP's show up in regular population, which is say around 3%-4% (according to the MBTI manual). That would mean INTP's show up in the military at twice the rate they do in society, by back of the envelope. In reality you want to look at the R value, but I'm not going to go through that and just say "they show up more frequently in the military than in normal life".

So it seems to indicate that yes, INTP's do go into the military. Why? Don't blast me but I'm puzzled why one would want to. Much of my extended family is military (air force - the father was a high ranking officer) so maybe I'm too close to see the thinking.

Maybe it's like the story of The Laziest Man (e.g. Daniel Lamb, from the Notebooks of Lazarus Long). It seems the most expedient path to a life of intellectual gentility.
 

nanook

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in my view, Ni-conscious types are not an ideal in modern orderly military. they are bound to become psychotic manifestations of shiva, like marlon brandon's character in apocalypse now or the asshole played by jon bernthal in Fury (2014)
 

paradoxparadigm7

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in my view, Ni-conscious types are not an ideal in modern orderly military. they are bound to become psychotic manifestations of shiva, like marlon brandon's character in apocalypse now or the asshole played by jon bernthal in Fury (2014)
I agree with this but you know, the military has uses for the psychotic shiva's:D
 

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So it seems to indicate that yes, INTP's do go into the military. Why? Don't blast me but I'm puzzled why one would want to. Much of my extended family is military (air force - the father was a high ranking officer) so maybe I'm too close to see the thinking.
I've had family that did very well for themselves financially from the military. So, I thought about joining the military (specifically the Navy) several times. The appeal for me was the idea that I would get to have a job where I wouldn't be expected to be sensitive or overly social in order to get by. Obviously, war zones and the more subordination heavy roles didn't sound fun, but something like linguistics or pirate-hunting would suit me just fine.

I was afraid of having no real control over my life and I have commitment issues, but I think if that fear wasn't compounded with the extra challenges of being a woman in the military, I would have joined up.
 

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I've had family that did very well for themselves financially from the military. So, I thought about joining the military (specifically the Navy) several times. The appeal for me was the idea that I would get to have a job where I wouldn't be expected to be sensitive or overly social in order to get by. Obviously, war zones and the more subordination heavy roles didn't sound fun, but something like linguistics or pirate-hunting would suit me just fine.
What you do it get a college degree and go in as an officer, then get promoted through the ranks (General ideally, at least Colonel). Retire after 20 years for the pension*, then go into the private sector as a consultant for military contracts (it's a who-knows-who thing so all you have to do is be somebody who knows people still in the forces who decides on contracts). Retire rich 10 years later.

Worked for one of my cousins. The problem is that you have to play the organization game worse than any corporation. I couldn't do it without a lot of alcohol and the promise of suicide at the end.

* Not the salary which is just enough to get by basically. I make as much as a 4* General at least, and you get to that position late in your career.
 

Yellow

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What you do it get a college degree and go in as an officer, then get promoted through the ranks (General ideally, at least Colonel). Retire after 20 years for the pension*, then go into the private sector as a consultant for military contracts (it's a who-knows-who thing so all you have to do is be somebody who knows people still in the forces who decides on contracts). Retire rich 10 years later.
My uncle did exactly that in the Air force (he was whatever you need to be to run a base) and then the DOD (and I think he invented some tech on top of it). He and is wife (also career air force) are millionaires now. But he is an ENTP, not INTP.

Edit:
I think in the right positions, NTs have the potential do well for themselves because they are capable of being both clever and detached. If they are willing to be (or pretend to be) team-players, that is. After all, the term "military intelligence" isn't supposed to be an oxymoron.
 

scorpiomover

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So it seems to indicate that yes, INTP's do go into the military. Why? Don't blast me but I'm puzzled why one would want to. Much of my extended family is military (air force - the father was a high ranking officer) so maybe I'm too close to see the thinking.
Military life suits INTx types.

1) Introversion: Military life initially involves basic training in a squad, which gives the impression of requiring extroversion. But the practicalities of military situations require one to be more self-sufficient in one's thinking and thus introverted. If you are standing on guard, you don't want 10 men standing guard together. You want 1 or 2 men standing guard, and the others resting, but being within earshot, so that if the guards see any dangers, they can yell for help. In addition, when a squad get held down by a machine-gun turret, they often would have to scatter around, and thus would have to be somewhat self-reliant to not get shot.

The real benefit of a squad, is to ensure that soldiers aren't always alone and thus sometimes have someone else to rely upon, and don't have to take their introversion to a dangerous extreme.

Civilian life, however, is about the whole community working together to build a home, a barn, a nuclear power plant, or grow food on a giant plantation, because working together, they can accomplish much more than by themselves. So civilian life is harder for introverts.

2) Intuition: If you were to take an enemy position using a known method, then the enemy would also know it. If it could be countered, they would, and there would be no point in using the known method. If it could not be countered, the enemy would know that too, would not bother to defend an impossible position, that would lose them men for no reason, and would retreat to a position they could defend. So the very nature of warfare requires that to win, you need to employ strategies that the enemy don't have. In addition, when you're under fire, you don't have time to look up a rule book. You have to trust your gut. So intuition is something necessary in warfare.

Likewise, if you look at the growth of civilisation, when we developed some science or technology that was useful, it quickly proliferated. Then it would end up being much quicker to copy the existing technology and use that, than to develop something new. In addition, if you used conventional methods, then others in your employ would know them and could "hit the ground running", so to speak. So largely, in peacetime, we get more and more methods becoming more and more conventional, and thus conventionality increasing and new intuitive ideas becoming less and less of the whole. So people who rely on conventional methods have a big advantage over unconventional people in the workplace, in dating, in socialising, and in most aspects of civilisation.

3) Thinking: Most of regular society comes about through dealing with others. People react to help you or hurt you based on how they feel about you. So to be a success, you have to be good with people, and have to be good at making them feel good, which gives Feelers a big advantage.

In the military, you have to control your feelings, to kill, and to withstand the stress and pressures of war. So in the military, Thinkers do better than Feelers.

So all in all, INTx have a lot of disadvantages in civilian life, that are actually considered advantages in the military.
 

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I can not see INTP's in the military unless forced to be. Military and warfare is for people who don't want to be productive or enjoy mindless control/order. INTP's probably fit the first part but not the second. ENTJ's and INTJ's are too smart to go into military intuitions in this day an age. They go into banking or big business which uses the military as their tools. It may have served a purpose in the past, but it's becoming more obsolete each day.
 

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My uncle did exactly that in the Air force (he was whatever you need to be to run a base)
Colonel or Brigadier General I think.

and then the DOD (and I think he invented some tech on top of it). He and is wife (also career air force) are millionaires now. But he is an ENTP, not INTP.
Yes most programs run in the billions, easy to skim off that.

I think in the right positions, NTs have the potential do well for themselves because they are capable of being both clever and detached.
Well true. Most brass I see are ISTJ types but I can see NT's taking that tract too. Probably more the logistics rather than command route though.
 

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Now's as good time as any to reveal the true nature of this thread. As an INTP with experience in the military, it has been interesting.
 

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imo, from the types I've encountered

INTP - Worst of all, nothing about it is natural. I kind of feel like a spy, despite not actually being one. Though when job expertise and tactics are required and all the discipline crap (like military courtesies, drill and ceremony, and grooming standards) goes out the window, I can be really competent and in my element, so to speak.
ISTP - Can do really well in a special unit, special forces, something technical, or a warrant position. Otherwise has to pretend to be like everyone else to fit in
ISTJ - Seems ideal for the military. They actually seem to support the rules, expectations, and overmicromanagement for one reason or another.

ENTJ - Confronts authority, but it usually ends up making people hate and punish them for it. But can use their intuitions about people to avoid potential conflicts and help other people out.
ENFJ - Has a habit of confronting authority and making them look as stupid as possible, which really hurts them when up for promotions and such.

ESFP - They seem to do really well. Everybody seems to like them as well, which helps them a lot more than they probably realize.
ESTP - So-so. They have no tact whatsoever and seem to have a hard time adjusting to discipline when they will go and do the things they want and get in trouble later for shamming out on their duties for too long.

ESFJ - Can do really well, if a unit is organized. Otherwise they tend to get crazy and trying to micromanage everyone and everything they get their hands on.
ENFP - Has a hard time focusing on anything for long periods of time and can get in trouble for severely messed up uniforms and forgetting to do stuff.
ESTJ - Along with ISTJ, seem pretty perfect for the military, though they have a tendency to get angered way too easily, freaking out when anyone does anything outside of what they expected them to do.

edit:
Oh yeah and sergeant major Sixta sounds like a complete douche that has lost touch with reality. If someone acts that strict in a combat zone, they've taken their role of Sergeant Major way beyond what it needs to be and probably have a serious psychological disorder. Though honestly, it's the officer in command that is probably at fault for keeping someone like that in their chain of command.
 

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I have done my time in that institution. It was compulsory. I did it but by any means I'm not going to follow the oath which was not based on my individual views.

I would be the first on to get shot and honestly speaking I would be hindrance for others in the war. Besides shooting or otherwise killing someone because someone says so does not resonate with me at all. Like I have said in my previous posts: ethics > morals.

Besides Ne, Ti, Fe and Si valuers have hard time in those places. It is completely against socionics alpha quadrant values.
 

The Grey Man

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I have done my time in that institution. It was compulsory. I did it but by any means I'm not going to follow the oath which was not based on my individual views.
Interesting. Suppose you refused to swear the oath. What would have happened to you? And what is your differentiation between morals and ethics?
 

Hat-Wearing MAN

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As an INTP, if i ever get drafted, I'll convince them I'm a better scientist for them, because I will be of great scientific help. If I can't do that, I'd be a Spy. Why use a genius for brute force? I'm also good at both faking accents and learning languages to get into enemy territory. If I were a footsoldier, I'd end up being a deserter. I'm tall and fast, but not very brutish or forceful.
 

Sockrates

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Any rational INTJ would never join the military.

The only INTJ that you would find is one who has no integrity and is a high position.

Fighting for nothing sounds like a waste of time, wealth, effort, and lives. I have greater matter to tend to.

I will never go into any military branch, and I recommend that no other person should join the military as well.
 

Pyropyro

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I wonder if the military will beat the J to an INTP. They'll probably become disciplined and seemingly well-adjusted but their inner mind will be broken because of the training.
 

TheManBeyond

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ill hide and let everyone kill everyone and make a few coward appearances to opportunitily kill someone who's distracted.
I dunno in call of duty I normally kill a ton but get killed many times as well almost equal. Like 25-25.
There was a time where i just scored amazing results like 56-3 or so.
But in real life i would be too scare to that.
Like I said I would run away of that shitty place.
 

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Any rational INTJ would never join the military.

The only INTJ that you would find is one who has no integrity and is a high position.

Fighting for nothing sounds like a waste of time, wealth, effort, and lives. I have greater matter to tend to.

I will never go into any military branch, and I recommend that no other person should join the military as well.
Well, it's funny you say that because the military tends to recruit people that are in bad situations and want to escape them. It's rational for the person joining, though from the frame of reference of someone with better options, it's not going to be. The military might be a kind of hell, but it does give people opportunity to escape their lives and create new ones should they choose to embrace it.

I have done my time in that institution. It was compulsory. I did it but by any means I'm not going to follow the oath which was not based on my individual views.

I would be the first on to get shot and honestly speaking I would be hindrance for others in the war. Besides shooting or otherwise killing someone because someone says so does not resonate with me at all. Like I have said in my previous posts: ethics > morals.

Besides Ne, Ti, Fe and Si valuers have hard time in those places. It is completely against socionics alpha quadrant values.
Yeah, I think heavy intuitors have a hard time when it comes to the "kill because someone told you to do so" mentality. Every person I've come across that I've felt thinks deeply about everything the military tries to force them to believe seems to wrestle with this a little bit. Then there are the kinds of people that don't really see a problem with it; they will regurgitate the values hammered into them by their institution and believe all the propaganda they are fed to believe. These people try to do everything by the book and generally believe their institution knows what's best. It's a shame when someone thinks they can dictate/regulate a moral or ethical code to someone else, but some people eat that shit up, maybe even most do. So that's generally how higher ups try to influence the lower ranks.

Unfortunately, the problem with this is that the one's that question things and form their own beliefs tend not to want to stay in the military, so you have a lot of higher ranking people trying to enforce a one-sided perspective of what the military should be and is and what makes a "good" soldier. Unfortunately, soldier tends to be a dirty word to a lot of people and that's a shame when ideally a soldier should be a protector of the human race, an arbiter that aims for peace out of the conflicts of human hearts, instead of adding more fuel to our fires...at least I think so anyway, otherwise what's the point? But maybe I'm more of the eleventh doctor from Doctor Who versus a world that seeks to tear itself apart. There's got to be a point where people understand that a defense is also an offense and that fighting in itself is then neither moral, nor immoral. It's just fighting.

Most of my experience is with the army though.
 

The Grey Man

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Yeah, I think heavy intuitors have a hard time when it comes to the "kill because someone told you to do so" mentality. Every person I've come across that I've felt thinks deeply about everything the military tries to force them to believe seems to wrestle with this a little bit. Then there are the kinds of people that don't really see a problem with it; they will regurgitate the values hammered into them by their institution and believe all the propaganda they are fed to believe. These people try to do everything by the book and generally believe their institution knows what's best. It's a shame when someone thinks they can dictate/regulate a moral or ethical code to someone else, but some people eat that shit up, maybe even most do. So that's generally how higher ups try to influence the lower ranks.
The military itself is a necessary evil, which is why I'll never accept the lifestyle or chain of command as ends, but means to accomplishing my mission, the mechanisms of duty. I volunteered to serve my country, not my superiors. To contribute to national security, not for any career ambition. As long as I don't lose sight of that, I think I'll be fine.

Unfortunately, the problem with this is that the one's that question things and form their own beliefs tend not to want to stay in the military, so you have a lot of higher ranking people trying to enforce a one-sided perspective of what the military should be and is and what makes a "good" soldier. Unfortunately, soldier tends to be a dirty word to a lot of people and that's a shame when ideally a soldier should be a protector of the human race, an arbiter that aims for peace out of the conflicts of human hearts, instead of adding more fuel to our fires...at least I think so anyway, otherwise what's the point? But maybe I'm more of the eleventh doctor from Doctor Who versus a world that seeks to tear itself apart. There's got to be a point where people understand that a defense is also an offense and that fighting in itself is then neither moral, nor immoral. It's just fighting.

Most of my experience is with the army though.
Unfortunately, peace is a two-way street, besides which a state devoid of conflict is not necessarily desirable. Fighting is moral when the alternative is worse.
 

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Unfortunately, peace is a two-way street, besides which a state devoid of conflict is not necessarily desirable. Fighting is moral when the alternative is worse.
Yes, I think you're right. But it's bad when the fighting is about a side looking to destroy the other. The goal then isn't to seek peace, but to seek war until the enemy is destroyed. For example, let's say a country attacks mine. My country could defend ourselves and fight back, but once we decide that the only way to win the war is to destroy them, we lose the moral integrity to justify anything we do, despite the fact that we'd be defending ourselves - because we'd seek to eliminate our problem, rather than solve it.

But it only takes one side looking to solve the problem to influence the other to do the same. This should be important, I think anyway, to the motive of a military force. It's one that I think the Israelis could learn from, for example.
 

Alomoes

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Well. Hrrm. I know I'd fair pretty well, except for the whole ethics thing, and the lazy part, and the everything else. I have considered joining the army, but instead I'll be a psychologist. If I were to join the army, and not run into any problems, I'd hope for my own command. Don't know how well I do with it though. I'm sure the Fi types would break at the first loss. Me? Hrrm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_B._McClellan

Probably a proud Fe user like I. :P

Slow and steady wins the race men. We'll starve out the South. Like what was happening, but in all reality that kind of a race would have been lost. Wait.

"He chronically overestimated the strength of enemy units and was reluctant to apply principles of mass, frequently leaving large portions of his army unengaged at decisive points."

No. Probably the other INF. Fi is related to those mamby pamby tears. I don't cry unless I can't solve the problem. Then, I cry as a last ditch effort.

INTp/INTJ, you're needed to keep up the home-front.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln

Well, someone needs to be Grant:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_S._Grant

I'm thinking an Fe-Ti type.

Someone needs to look at the potential of Teddy to not be ESTP, just for the heck of it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Roosevelt

As a note, ESTPs are not the stereotypical trouble makers one makes them out to be.

Oddly enough, I've typed those as my illusionary, ENTP. This is due to the functions used. The idea is that those types get too close too early. http://www.socionics.com/rel/ill.htm

The partners both become really quite close, but then they lose sight of reality. A couple bad choices, and then you're screwed. By that time, it is too late.

The INTJ one is ENFP. Hrrm. Isn't there some kind of stereotype with that? I don't know.

Someone needs to look at Lee:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Lee

I really don't know.

The stereotypical war hero would also be nice to know. I'd have to also test my friend who is quite literally a god among men. Would be nice to know. I really don't know. He's joining the Navy, as an officer, so it is kind of relevant. I'll go check. Also very heavy introvert. Trying to think of other examples of him. I don't know. Still thinking.

And I'd also like to know what type Einstein was. If my calculations are correct, he's neither INTP nor INTJ. Those two belong to Lincoln and Bach/Edison. But yeah. Filling out the gaps of my knowledge is going to be nice.

Hrrm. Well, I came to a conclusion on Einstein, but it is controversial.
 

Sockrates

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Well, it's funny you say that because the military tends to recruit people that are in bad situations and want to escape them. It's rational for the person joining, though from the frame of reference of someone with better options, it's not going to be. The military might be a kind of hell, but it does give people opportunity to escape their lives and create new ones should they choose to embrace it.
Generally, most people in bad situations don't tend to think rationally unless they're intelligent and optimistic. No INTJ would be willing to be told what to do, when to do it, how to do it, and without a true reason as to why to do it.

Sure i'll have my guns, but I won't listen to some schmuck who's a "man" because he's been in war. Damn barbarians.
 
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