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I suck at math

Silent_Rebel

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Are any other INTPs bad at math? I really only have a big problem with fractions, but I am in algebra right now so that is pretty much 60% of the numbers that we deal with.
 

ckm

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Nope, I love Maths. I'm not one of those people who wants to make life an equation though.
 

*Stabbity*

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UNPOSSIBLE! YOU ARE INTP.

Seriously though, some of us are several orders of magnitude better at it than others. I'm an ühttp://www.ubercontent.com/ber geek and am not overly fascinated by it either, yet I still retain most of what learned in high school and college.
 

Trebuchet

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I struggled a lot with certain math concepts, though I ended up loving and being very good at it (as long as you don't count Linear Algebra). I fought to learn my multiplication tables, and graphing didn't make any sense to me for a long time until suddenly it all came clear.

Fractions didn't bother me, but if you are anything like me I would guess that there is just one tiny fact or concept that no one has told you, which would make it all come together.

I adore teaching math. Can you post examples of the kind of thing that is troubling you, and maybe I or someone else on this forum will be able to provide that little detail?

While I am sure that not all INTPs are good at math, your struggle doesn't mean you are bad at it. Maybe you will love Calculus, or Statistics.
 

Fukyo

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I've noticed that most schools teach math in a very Si-Te way, and enforce this style or learning, and it seems effective....for most people, most people not being global or intuitive learners. Every math teacher I had expected the students to learn by doing a mass of practice problems, which were all basically the same. This is a big problem for someone who absolutely hates repetitive routine. Thus, even though I could understand the concepts, lack of interest and doing any kind of work resulted in poor grades in this subject.

The other issue is that some teachers expect that problems are solved using the exact procedures they've taught you.
My natural approach to math problems is intuitively trying to "sniff out" a solution, approximating and trying out different variations, which would usually leave me brainstorming and scribbling calculations on the margins of the exam sheet paper, not making it till the end of class with any definite solutions. :phear:
 

ckm

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I've noticed that most schools teach math in a very Si-Te way, and enforce this style or learning, and it seems effective....for most people, most people not being global or intuitive learners. Every math teacher I had expected the students to learn by doing a mass of practice problems, which were all basically the same. This is a big problem for someone who absolutely hates repetitive routine. Thus, even though I could understood the concepts, lack of interest and doing any kind of work resulted in poor grades in this subject.

The other issue is that some teachers expect that problems are solved using the exact procedures they've thought you.
My natural approach to math problems is intuitively trying to "sniff out" a solution, approximating and trying out different variations, which would usually leave me brainstorming and scribbling calculations on the margins of the exam sheet paper, not making it till the end of class with any definite solutions. :phear:

Is "global learning" essentially learning through the big picture?

Also, unfortunately you're right. I would say "Problem Solving" should be a subject, but they'd probably teach it in an Si-Te way.
 

Fukyo

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Is "global learning" essentially learning through the big picture?

Yes.

  • "Sequential learners tend to gain understanding in linear steps, with each step following logically from the previous one. Global learners tend to learn in large jumps, absorbing material almost randomly without seeing connections, and then suddenly 'getting it.'"
  • "Sequential learners tend to follow logical stepwise paths in finding solutions; global learners may be able to solve complex problems quickly or put things together in novel ways once they have grasped the big picture, but they may have difficulty explaining how they did it."

Although most web resources portray global learners as right brained NFs, and sequential learners as left brained STs, I don't think it's always the case. In my opinion, the difference between sequential and global learning is more of an intuitive/sensing one.
 

ckm

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Yes.



Although most web resources portray global learners as right brained NFs, and sequential learners as left brained STs, I don't think it's always the case. In my opinion, the difference between sequential and global learning is more of an intuitive/sensing one.

The descriptions of global learning you quoted sound like Ni, but Ne probably applies too so I agree that it's an intuition/sensing split.

I would consider myself a global learner. Sometimes (in History) I do crave a simple timeline, but that's arguably a desire for a bigger picture as opposed to a linear viewpoint.
 

citrusbreath95

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I enjoy math, if I understand it, or am trying to understand complex math. They way they teach it at my school (algebra class) nearly puts me to sleep, and I can't focus to save my life. We do the same routine of it everyday! First it's a warm-up/starter, then we check homework, take a page or so of notes, and that's pretty much a day in my math class. We don't really use books and my teacher teaches it differently than how it's taught in the book (I learn best from reading on my own actually...) Also, taking notes allows my mind to wander too much, I end up losing them anyways, and I get nothing out of it. So, I kind of suck at math that's taught, but I can usually grasp it if I really want to, or do it my own way.
 

Adamastor

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I love math. School math sucks though.

I think there need to be a clear distinction between exercises and problems.

If you like challenges you like problems and, if you are like me, you'll hate exercises because they are dull and boring and you always seem to get it wrong (who danm care about getting some 12938123812903/990931 right?)

I love math because I love abstract things and enjoy modeling things and that is it. Number Theory and combinatorics are fascinating and, thankfully, they are of interest for those who enjoy competitions like math competitions.
 

Cavallier

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Fukyo said:
I've noticed that most schools teach math in a very Si-Te way, and enforce this style or learning, and it seems effective....for most people, most people not being global or intuitive learners. Every math teacher I had expected the students to learn by doing a mass of practice problems, which were all basically the same. This is a big problem for someone who absolutely hates repetitive routine. Thus, even though I could understand the concepts, lack of interest and doing any kind of work resulted in poor grades in this subject.

This. I managed to make it up to Calculus before finally giving up. I had a number of teachers in elementary school who publicly ridiculed students for wrong answers. I was simply bodily afraid of a few others. I was too scared to ask questions in class. Once I made it into high school I was too far behind to really catch up effectively.

I hate math. It's my biggest failure.
 

Trebuchet

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This. I managed to make it up to Calculus before finally giving up. I had a number of teachers in elementary school who publicly ridiculed students for wrong answers. I was simply bodily afraid of a few others. I was too scared to ask questions in class.

That is seriously messed up. I had an English teacher who publicly ridiculed people for getting things wrong, and I reacted like you did, but to lit classes. That was only one teacher, though. A string of them is truly bad luck.
 

ashitaria

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I'm not telling you, stalker! :P
I honestly think that my math class is just a big waste of time, I don't enjoy it at all. For one thing, Geometry doesn't teach you anything past algebra.

My math class is the only class which I can get an A in without studying, doing homework or paying attention. Basically, the formulas are all you need to know. The rest can go fuck it self.

Not to mention how much I suck at graphs. I absolutely cannot draw graphs or do graph equations even if to save my life. So much detail has to put into it and so much picturing...

I hate it.

Hopefully though, I'll learn something in my next math class...

Does Adv.Algebra II teach anything?
 

Irishpenguin

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interestingly enough, I was just thinking about math today. What were my thoughts you ask? oh it was nothing except I ABSOLUTELY HATED FACTORING GRRRRRR!!!!!!!:twisteddevil:.....okay maybe more of a :evil:, but still....


Yea but other than that, math isn't so bad, I'm not extremely good at it, though I am normally able to grasp most of the concepts the teacher wants you too before the test. eh...it's math
 

y4r5xeym5

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Mathematician speaking.

I freaking love math. It makes me feel like a magician or something. From just a small number of rules I can imply just about anything, whether it be horribly abstract or concrete and applicable to daily life. I've come to realize though that I learn mathematics in a very strange way. Rather than memorizing the steps and formulas needed to solve the problems, I learned instead how to break the problems up into the simplest component pieces possible and derive my solution from there given the rules that I have memorized.

For instance, I took my linear algebra final today. One of the questions was something like this (note, this question is made up on the fly for the sake of showing an example):

Let S = {(1 1 -2 3 0 5), (0 1 0 2 0 3), (0 0 0 1 0 2), (0 0 0 0 0 0)}

In matrix form:

| 1 0 -2 0 -1 5|
| 0 1 3 0 8 3|
| 0 0 0 1 -7 2|
| 0 0 0 0 0 0|

Find the orthogonal component of S.

Well, my brain starts dissecting this immediately

1) I need to find all vectors x such that x is 90 degrees to a vector of S.
2) This means that the scalar product of S and x must equal zero
3) ie, Sx=0
4) However, we know that the nullspace of a set of functions is defined as the set of vectors x such that the matrix, A, multiplied with x equals zero. Ax=0
5) So I must find the nullspace of S
6) Well crap. How big is the nullspace?
7) Well, by the rank-nullity theorem, we know that the rank of a matrix added to the nullity of a matrix equals the number of elements in a vector of the matrix, and since S is in reduced row echelon form, our free variables have leading ones, meaning that S has a rank of 3.
8) So this means that our nullspace is 5-3 = 2. 2 elements in N(S)

And then from here I'll use simple substitution to find N(S) and so on and so forth.


Most people don't learn this way though. If a person can't use a method over and over again to solve a problem, they just seem to be stumped by it.

*looks at what he just did* I'm a nerd....

Oh, I do hate English and history though. 1942 and 1492 should not be that big of a difference :(
 

ashitaria

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I'm not telling you, stalker! :P
Mathematician speaking.

I freaking love math. It makes me feel like a magician or something. From just a small number of rules I can imply just about anything, whether it be horribly abstract or concrete and applicable to daily life. I've come to realize though that I learn mathematics in a very strange way. Rather than memorizing the steps and formulas needed to solve the problems, I learned instead how to break the problems up into the simplest component pieces possible and derive my solution from there given the rules that I have memorized.

For instance, I took my linear algebra final today. One of the questions was something like this (note, this question is made up on the fly for the sake of showing an example):

Let S = {(1 1 -2 3 0 5), (0 1 0 2 0 3), (0 0 0 1 0 2), (0 0 0 0 0 0)}

In matrix form:

| 1 0 -2 0 -1 5|
| 0 1 3 0 8 3|
| 0 0 0 1 -7 2|
| 0 0 0 0 0 0|

Find the orthogonal component of S.

Well, my brain starts dissecting this immediately

1) I need to find all vectors x such that x is 90 degrees to a vector of S.
2) This means that the scalar product of S and x must equal zero
3) ie, Sx=0
4) However, we know that the nullspace of a set of functions is defined as the set of vectors x such that the matrix, A, multiplied with x equals zero. Ax=0
5) So I must find the nullspace of S
6) Well crap. How big is the nullspace?
7) Well, by the rank-nullity theorem, we know that the rank of a matrix added to the nullity of a matrix equals the number of elements in a vector of the matrix, and since S is in reduced row echelon form, our free variables have leading ones, meaning that S has a rank of 3.
8) So this means that our nullspace is 5-3 = 2. 2 elements in N(S)

And then from here I'll use simple substitution to find N(S) and so on and so forth.


Most people don't learn this way though. If a person can't use a method over and over again to solve a problem, they just seem to be stumped by it.

*looks at what he just did* I'm a nerd....

Oh, I do hate English and history though. 1942 and 1492 should not be that big of a difference :(

I have no idea what the fuck you just did but that was hella awesome. :evil:
 

y4r5xeym5

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Probably don't want to get me started on mathematics and computing logic then... :o
 

The Lurker

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I wouldn't say that I'm good or bad at math...it's just by no means my strongest subject. Geometry is the bane of my existence, however. I'm seemingly incapable of doing anything much more complicated than trigonometry. I work better with the (albeit somewhat restricted, obviously) abstractness of algebra.

I took a semester long class in C++ programming a few years ago, and I regret not following it up with additional self-teaching; I've pretty much forgotten everything as of present. I even made this awesome Rock Paper Scissors program for my final project and got an A+ for it.
 

y4r5xeym5

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Heh. Currently though, I'm into C++ programming so you're not alone in the nerd aspect. :evil:

Sadly, Tech has me using Java. Ewww. It doesn't even look pretty!
 

Marbas

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Mathematician speaking.

I freaking love math. It makes me feel like a magician or something. From just a small number of rules I can imply just about anything, whether it be horribly abstract or concrete and applicable to daily life. I've come to realize though that I learn mathematics in a very strange way. Rather than memorizing the steps and formulas needed to solve the problems, I learned instead how to break the problems up into the simplest component pieces possible and derive my solution from there given the rules that I have memorized.

Thought this was normal for mathematician!

Math major speaking here BTW.
 

y4r5xeym5

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Thought this was normal for mathematician!

Math major speaking here BTW.

EPIC HIGH FIVE!

In my experiences though, most people freak when they see a problem that is unfamiliar rather than trying to work it out little by little. I mean, it's not like you can't reverse your work to check the answer... :confused:
 

ashitaria

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I'm not telling you, stalker! :P
EPIC HIGH FIVE!

In my experiences though, most people freak when they see a problem that is unfamiliar rather than trying to work it out little by little. I mean, it's not like you can't reverse your work to check the answer... :confused:
I think the same thing.

I mean, just because the triangle is a bit weird doesn't mean you can't use Pythagorean theorem. I don't get people. :confused:
 

Marbas

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I think the same thing.

I mean, just because the triangle is a bit weird doesn't mean you can't use Pythagorean theorem. I don't get people. :confused:

Well, if it doesn't have a right angle you can't. Then you use the law of sines. Or the law of cosines.

Or you scream defiance to the heavens and sacrifice your paper to the blood gods.

EPIC HIGH FIVE!

In my experiences though, most people freak when they see a problem that is unfamiliar rather than trying to work it out little by little. I mean, it's not like you can't reverse your work to check the answer...
What branch of math are you specialized in? I'm personally hoping to go into some type of geometry. Or toplogy. Algebraic, Differential, Symplectic, Geometric Group Theory, or something else.

AYE <3 SHAPES
 

DylanHead

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I rarely had the patience to pay attention in Math class. I was fairly good at copying my girlfriends homework though.
 

unhinged

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I would think that most INTPs would like Mathematics. Its all about making coming up with ideas, making patterns and connections. Unfortunately the way mathematics is taught has reduced it to a bunch of rules and formula, and all students need to do is figure out which ones to apply to which problem. There is little (if any) room left for creativity. Mathematics is far more than that. In the words of G. H. Hardy (a famous mathematician):

A mathematician, like a painter or poet, is a maker of patterns. If his patterns are more permanent than theirs, it is because they are made with ideas.

Some interesting reading on the topic:
A Mathematician's Apology
A Mathematician's Lament
 

Melkor

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Uh, same.

I enjoy logic puzzles via numbers, sudoku, those little newspaper quizzes and straightforward maths, but, I can never-ever remember the god damn formulae!

Which is why I only managed a B in maths I guess.

I enjoy the logic that comes with maths (Though sometimes I do horrible un-Intp things like try to but some meaning or character into the equations, or set out some sort of predetermined goal that has nothing to do with the question), just not the memory.
 

unhinged

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I enjoy logic puzzles via numbers, sudoku, those little newspaper quizzes and straightforward maths, but, I can never-ever remember the god damn formulae!

That was my point. The formulae are not what mathematics is about. Thats just the language used to express the ideas. Mathematics is the problem solving, the logic puzzles, etc. Formulae are just the end result of the process.
 

y4r5xeym5

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What branch of math are you specialized in? I'm personally hoping to go into some type of geometry. Or toplogy. Algebraic, Differential, Symplectic, Geometric Group Theory, or something else.
Actually, my current plan is to go into the field of computer animation or cryptology. I'd probably be a pure mathematician otherwise. I don't know what I'd specialize in, though. I like all math too much. I think Theory of Artificial Intelligence would be interesting as well. :borg:
 

anemian

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Math classes were 'almost' useless for me. I ended having to teach myself math by Chemistry(mostly fractions), physics(real algebra and some calculus), computer programming(application and derivatives(without know that that was what I was doing)), and a basic engineering class(algebra and application).
 

BigApplePi

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I first learned to reason solving problems in plane geometry. Later math taught me logic. Can you prove the square root of two can't be a fraction? It can't be. You don't care? Okay!

Topology is wonderful. Can you imagine trying to prove every closed curve (some technical definition of closed) in a plane has an inside and an outside? I've never seen the proof of this intuitively obvious theorem.

Anyway here is a problem for you. It's not particularly a problem in math, but one for psychology. 23 + 23 + 23 + 23 + 23 has a sum. Divide the sum by 5. What is the answer? Now explain.
 

Dormouse

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Oh, I know this... 23!

Why? Well, there are five sets of twenty three which essentially remain the same when added together, so you just seperate them again...

Logicfail.
 

y4r5xeym5

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I beg to differ. I think you're adding a tenth of each term twice!
 

Dormouse

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One tenth of 23 = 2.3
2.3 x 2 = 4.6
4.6 + 4.6 + 4.6 + 4.6 + 4.6 = 23

Like that? :)
 

y4r5xeym5

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No, this can't be right... :confused:

Needs more Riemann sum and recursion!
 

Keary

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Can't stand maths. I understand a lot of what they talk about but I'm just not that interested in it. I'd rather be doing subjects like English than maths.
 

BigApplePi

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Can't stand maths. I understand a lot of what they talk about but I'm just not that interested in it. I'd rather be doing subjects like English than maths.
Maths is like a puzzle except it can be very cute. You don't like puzzles? Maybe we hate all the rules to learn but puzzles are artificial -- made by man. There is something about describing the natural world -- can't put my finger on it --

English is like puzzles -- made by man. English has no rules. Maths is forever.
 

unhinged

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Maths is like a puzzle except it can be very cute. You don't like puzzles? Maybe we hate all the rules to learn but puzzles are artificial -- made by man. There is something about describing the natural world -- can't put my finger on it --

English is like puzzles -- made by man. English has no rules. Maths is forever.

I don't get it... :confused:
 

BigApplePi

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I don't get it... :confused:
No one said it's easy. Math and English are are difficult or as easy as life itself.

Take the counting numbers: one, two, three, four, five, and so on. Can you find ANYTHING interesting about those numbers?

For example, one is the start or the unity. Two is a pair.

Okay. Now what is the first number in that list you find uninteresting?
 

unhinged

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No one said it's easy. Math and English are are difficult or as easy as life itself.

Take the counting numbers: one, two, three, four, five, and so on. Can you find ANYTHING interesting about those numbers?

For example, one is the start or the unity. Two is a pair.

Okay. Now what is the first number in that list you find uninteresting?

Well suppose that x is the first number that I find uninteresting. I could say that x is interesting BECAUSE it is the first uninteresting number. Does that mean there are no uninteresting numbers?

This is the Interesting Number Paradox. Though I still don't get what your point is...
 

BigApplePi

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Well suppose that x is the first number that I find uninteresting. I could say that x is interesting BECAUSE it is the first uninteresting number. Does that mean there are no uninteresting numbers?

This is the Interesting Number Paradox. Though I still don't get what your point is...
I think you should put x into an equation and solve for x.

My point :confused:? That math is interesting.:D
 

unhinged

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Pants

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unhinged said:
I would think that most INTPs would like Mathematics. Its all about making coming up with ideas, making patterns and connections. Unfortunately the way mathematics is taught has reduced it to a bunch of rules and formula...
Physics is the new maths. Example:
If it takes ten minutes to blow up a balloon to 13 cm in diameter, how much longer will it take to inflate the balloon to 39 cm in diameter? Assume that the pressure that the balloon exerts on the air inside is proportional to the surface area of the balloon, that you blow a constant number of molecules of air per unit time into the balloon regardless of the pressure, and that the balloon retains he same shape as it is being inflated.
It will take __________ more minutes to inflate from 13 cm to 39 cm
Also, assume that the balloon is a sphere.

I suppose, paradoxes notwithstanding, I'd consider 14 to be the first boring number. It's not prime, it's not relevant to counting by tens or dozens, it's neither lucky nor unlucky, not a square or cube. To it's credit, though, it is preceded and followed by some awesome numbers. 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25.... then another boring one.
 

unhinged

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If it takes ten minutes to blow up a balloon to 13 cm in diameter, how much longer will it take to inflate the balloon to 39 cm in diameter? Assume that the pressure that the balloon exerts on the air inside is proportional to the surface area of the balloon, that you blow a constant number of molecules of air per unit time into the balloon regardless of the pressure, and that the balloon retains he same shape as it is being inflated.
It will take __________ more minutes to inflate from 13 cm to 39 cm

This is precisely whats wrong with standardized education.
 

BigApplePi

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Physics is the new maths. Example:

Also, assume that the balloon is a sphere.

I suppose, paradoxes notwithstanding, I'd consider 14 to be the first boring number. It's not prime, it's not relevant to counting by tens or dozens, it's neither lucky nor unlucky, not a square or cube. To it's credit, though, it is preceded and followed by some awesome numbers. 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25.... then another boring one.
I would dispute 14 being boring. 1 fortnight = 14 days exactly.
26 is interesting because it is exactly in between a square and a cube. It may be the only number like that but I haven't tried a proof.

But why do you think the others are interesting?
 

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I would dispute 14 being boring. 1 fortnight = 14 days exactly.
26 is interesting because it is exactly in between a square and a cube. It may be the only number like that but I haven't tried a proof.

But why do you think the others are interesting?
True, perhaps we'll have to keep looking. 15's smack between 10 and 20, 16's a square, 17's prime, 18's a dozen and a half, 19's Steve Yzerman's number, 20's two tens, 21's just cool, 22's double numbers, 23's prime, 24's a case of beer, 25's obvious.
 

y4r5xeym5

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Now I defy a tenet gallantly
Of circle canon law: these integers
Importing circles' quotients are, we see,
Unwieldy long series of cockle burs
Put all together, get no clarity;
Mnemonics shan't describeth so reformed
Creating, with a grammercy plainly,
A sonnet liberated yet conformed.
Strangely, the queer'st rules I manipulate
Being followéd, do facilitate
Whimsical musings from geometric bard.
This poesy, unabashed as it's distressed,
Evolvéd coherent - a simple test,
Discov'ring poetry no numerals jarred....
 

BigApplePi

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True, perhaps we'll have to keep looking. 15's smack between 10 and 20, 16's a square, 17's prime, 18's a dozen and a half, 19's Steve Yzerman's number, 20's two tens, 21's just cool, 22's double numbers, 23's prime, 24's a case of beer, 25's obvious.
That's very good. 21 is also age for legally voting in some U.S. states. We've got 26, 27 is a perfect cube. What's next in our search for the 1st uninteresting number?
 

BigApplePi

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Two, four, six, eight.
y4 do we appreciate.
 
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