# i'm not an engineer, i'm an artist.

#### cooliohoolio

##### Redshirt
this post doesn't necessarily reflect visual art, but i thought it belonged here because my topic pertains to art.

anyways, on to my original topic:

i'm not an engineer. science is great, i love science, but i'm not about to pursue a career in neurophysics. i hate math with a deep, fiery passion. yet, according to every damn thing i read about intp's, we're all head over heels for all of that science-math bull. but, to reiterate, i'm an artist, not an engineer!

i value art above any thing in this world. i'll be walking down the street and i'll be immersed in the next drawing i'm going to make or world i'm going to build. i'm constantly trying to learn and better myself. all these are traits of an intp, but sometimes i feel like however many times i've seen the letter I-N-F-P as the results of a personality test, i still doubt that it's correct.

i guess i'm in a minority, then. how many other art-inclined intp's are there out there? i want to know i'm not the only one with this problem.

#### somebodiesfool

##### Member
Well, I think I like both. During school I was a big lover of music. I wanted to be a musician it was all I wanted to do. At the same time I was studying to be an engineer. Well, the music really never payed off so, I ended up being an engineer/scientist.

I would prefer something with more input from my creativity. Sometimes this line of work feels like such a drag to me. I often think about a career change. But what? I make good money doing this and I'm already in my early 30's. Seems like it's a little late to change at this point.

#### Cereal4Dinner

##### Redshirt
I always have interest in science but my true passion is art!!
And yeah, I value art as the highest aspect in my life--the whole universe is about art I wouldn't mind going for science for study, but I think I'd do much better in art rather than science. I love studying them, but I guess it won't be as much fun when I have to do it for money xP I'm an INTP, though.

#### Kuu

i guess i'm in a minority, then. how many other art-inclined intp's are there out there? i want to know i'm not the only one with this problem.
Depends on how you define "art". What does the word "art" mean to you?

I wonder when the word drifted from the original craft/skill meaning to its æsthetics-centered contemporary connotation.

#### TMills27

##### beep
i value art above any thing in this world. i'll be walking down the street and i'll be immersed in the next drawing i'm going to make or world i'm going to build.
Maybe your pursuit in art will eventually lead you to a passion in numbers. Especially if you're planning on engineering a world.

#### Inquisitor

##### Well-Known Member
i guess i'm in a minority, then. how many other art-inclined intp's are there out there? i want to know i'm not the only one with this problem.
I don't think they're common. INTPs suck at producing art. Architecture can be considered art, but INTPs would not approach it as such. Think of Howard Roark in Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead. Same holds true for design of any technology. Producing a gadget requires a team of different personalities to put it all together. The "art" aspect of it won't be the INTP strong suit (making it look cool, appealing, etc.). If you really are INTP, I would give math a second try and not go off of unpleasant memories of doing math in school. You might be (pleasantly) surprised. Until recently, I too was in the camp that thought I hated math. Now I'm taking Calculus, and it's fun! Comes naturally. I would say hating math and/or struggling to understand it and solve problems is a pretty big indication that you are not INTP.

Otherwise, I would re-evaluate and look at other personality types. You mentioned INFP...

#### Architect

##### Professional INTP
I don't think they're common. INTPs suck at producing art.
Yes we do, though that doesn't stop us from wanting to do art (in the broad sense) and wanting to think of ourselves as artists. A lot of that has to do with the Fe inferior. Also the Ti-Ne-Si combination as a master logician, being human we do want some balance and so often INTP's display an interest or desire for the humanities. However see below ...

Otherwise, I would re-evaluate and look at other personality types. You mentioned INFP...
Yes, no idea about OP, but INFP's with Te in the inferior often mistype themselves as INTP's. Of course it's doubly wrong as INTP's have Ti, not Te, but the INFP's are just seeing it as "Thinking" no doubt.

The inferior most often gets us to mistype ourselves because it points towards what we think we are, or want to think we are, rather than what we actually are. There's a blind spot toward our Dominant-Auxiliary because we're so used to seeing them. It's the inferior which gets much of the conscious attraction (e.g., seeing the dessert instead of the meal).

#### Inquisitor

##### Well-Known Member
Yes we do, though that doesn't stop us from wanting to do art (in the broad sense) and wanting to think of ourselves as artists. A lot of that has to do with the Fe inferior. Also the Ti-Ne-Si combination as a master logician, being human we do want some balance and so often INTP's display an interest or desire for the humanities. However see below ...

Yes, no idea about OP, but INFP's with Te in the inferior often mistype themselves as INTP's. Of course it's doubly wrong as INTP's have Ti, not Te, but the INFP's are just seeing it as "Thinking" no doubt.

The inferior most often gets us to mistype ourselves because it points towards what we think we are, or want to think we are, rather than what we actually are. There's a blind spot toward our Dominant-Auxiliary because we're so used to seeing them. It's the inferior which gets much of the conscious attraction (e.g., seeing the dessert instead of the meal).
He's back!

#### onesteptwostep

##### Think.. Be... ..buzz buzz :)
It's sort of hard for me to imagine an INTP with passion. Maybe an unquenchable interest and drive.. passion usually involves outwardly emotion.

I like art, personally, but I don't really try and make a profession out of it. It's simply not realistic.

#### Sinny91

##### Banned
Hm. I'm passionate about a few things, emotions included.

I enjoy art, it's not all I live for, but I do enjoy it.
When I have a go at it, I'm reasonably good, but not so good that I'd attempt to sell anything.Art is in the eye off the beholder.

I do love science, but how dull would the world be if that was all their was?

Da Vinci loved Math and Art, they are both beautiful concepts.

ETA: Now I'm wondering about Da Vinci's type..

#### Haim

##### Worlds creator
Because you think intp are not good in some of them?
painting?music?other with physical metrial?
To create anything(new idea,write,talk..) and to express it is art.
Just look at the posts here,they don't suck and clearly are an an act of expression.
We are considered idea people,you create ideas,some of them you express.

I value art act to the point that I think my meaning of life is creating.Most of my information seeking is to have metrials
to work with to create new ideas.
Mainly programming is my art but also other ways
like 3d modelling, vector art,when younger then now animation,writing ideas.it's like I created a small world.

#### Auburn

##### Luftschloss Schöpfer
*artist here*

I might be close to broke most of the time, but I love what I do. I also loved math growing up, until about 11th grade when I got teachers who stopped explaining the concepts properly and just treated teaching as a rote process of memorization. I haven't picked up higher maths since, but I suspect I'd enjoy it too, given the right time to digest it.

I tend to have a similar definition of art as Hiam; the conveying of an idea through a medium appropriate for its reception.

I'm not of the modern-art opinion that anything is art, though. Art is art when it has a form/presentation that manages to communicate something in a way more nuanced than the purely informational mediums could provide. If I get nothing out of seeing splattered colors on a canvass, then it wasn't art (to me). Naturally art has no 'objective' definition, but a reasonably useful 'relative' definition can be devised for it. =)

3D animation/FX seems to be my favorite medium lately, but I also dabble with FL Studio, lyric-writing, and short-story writing. Programming is also wonderful and I've started learning PHP lately.

#### Architect

##### Professional INTP
He's back!
Consider me being here as prison conjugal visits; brief, infrequent and minimally satisfying. I'll be stopping by a couple times a month at most from here on.

#### JimJambones

I drew and painted incessantly for twenty years, mostly realism. I prefer indirect painting methods used by the Renaissance Masters. When my kids are a little older, I would like to get back into it. Although I've been told I'm really good, sometimes art seems pointless, especially with the amount of time required to produce really good art. I'm not at all into modern art with its emphasis on feeling and spontaneity and calling everything art.

Lately, I'm really into philosophy, science(always been a science nerd), and parenting, which takes up most of my spare time. Drawing naked chicks will just have to wait.

#### Inquisitor

##### Well-Known Member
Because you think intp are not good in some of them?
painting?music?other with physical metrial?
To create anything(new idea,write,talk..) and to express it is art.
Just look at the posts here,they don't suck and clearly are an an act of expression.
We are considered idea people,you create ideas,some of them you express.

I value art act to the point that I think my meaning of life is creating.Most of my information seeking is to have metrials
to work with to create new ideas.
Mainly programming is my art but also other ways
like 3d modelling, vector art,when younger then now animation,writing ideas.it's like I created a small world.
Depends what your definition of "art" is. Mine is along the lines of painting, composing music, drawing, sculpting, jewelry-making, cartooning, etc. Basically Fine Art. Aka what you study in a Master's of Fine Arts course of study. Programming per se doesn't really fall into that category as much unless you're making a game, creating animation, etc. which requires an understanding of what customers want/value and delivering that. Same is true for fiction writing. It's the same reason I'll never be a great ESL teacher. Requires emotional expression and love of creating lesson plans that give students both training and joy. The latter is very difficult to deliver on for an INTP. Like Architect says, it doesn't stop INTPs from wanting to try their hand at it. I've dabbled in Sci-Fi writing, but ultimately, I was unsuccessful at creating an interesting storyline/plot because that's not what I was interested in writing about. I came up with some pretty cool concepts though about what the future might look like.

#### Haim

##### Worlds creator
I see a thing more "art" the more I can see personality in it.
It's less obvious but every software,website has some personality to it.
It is effective when intp use information as material to art,to create a new system, a new world. Kind of like engineering.

#### Yellow

##### for the glory of satan
It depends on what you mean by art.

Instead of a traditional high school, I went to an art school. I have a technical talent for art in grayscale. I can use charcoal, graphite, inkwash, clay, metal, anything without color, and I can produce a perfect work of art. If you don't mind it being more abstract, I can even throw in color. I'm the same with photography. I'm best in monochrome. I've won awards, and made some sales. I enjoy the short bursts of whimsy, but I'm not an artist.

I can write. I am familiar with a variety of writing styles and rules. I can produce a story, an article, a poem, or even a stand-up comedy bit. I've won small scholarships with my writing, and I've done freelance work. I enjoy the short bursts of creativity, but I'm not a writer.

I can sing and play several instruments. I have a good ear, and need little practice to memorize a piece. I can imitate another singer's rhythm, vocal style, and pitch. I've written a few riffs, and had decent reviews. I've dabbled a little in bands and I've performed a few times, but I'm not a musician.

I don't have the passion. I don't have those brilliant sparks of intuition that drive me relentlessly to complete my creation. My work is relatively lifeless. You have to bring your own fire to my work in order to appreciate it -- I provide no inspiration. I can't capture the human experience or move you with the raw emotion of my work because I just don't operate like that.

I realized, upon my first real encounter, that science was my passion. My insight, intuition, and interest are put to good use there. I am moved by the beauty of a sound scientific theory. I'm excited by possibilities and new thoughts.

So aside for the odd moments in life where my talent can be used to help me communicate effectively, I leave the art to the artists. My only exception is writing, where for some reason I feel the need to torture myself by attempting to write a novel.

#### JimJambones

Depends what your definition of "art" is. Mine is along the lines of painting, composing music, drawing, sculpting, jewelry-making, cartooning, etc. Basically Fine Art. Aka what you study in a Master's of Fine Arts course of study. Programming per se doesn't really fall into that category as much unless you're making a game, creating animation, etc. which requires an understanding of what customers want/value and delivering that. Same is true for fiction writing. It's the same reason I'll never be a great ESL teacher. Requires emotional expression and love of creating lesson plans that give students both training and joy. The latter is very difficult to deliver on for an INTP. Like Architect says, it doesn't stop INTPs from wanting to try their hand at it. I've dabbled in Sci-Fi writing, but ultimately, I was unsuccessful at creating an interesting storyline/plot because that's not what I was interested in writing about. I came up with some pretty cool concepts though about what the future might look like.
I think INTPs are great for coming up with concepts, but not as good carrying them out, whether it be art, music, or writing. I'm always coming up with interesting ideas, but when it comes time to doing it I lose the interest/drive.

most are neither

#### Alias

##### empirical miracle
Don't worry, I know of an INTP who does both art and video games. His name is STAR_. His art is great, but so is his comedy and YouTube channel. Artistic skill doesn't always mean how ISFP you are. You're just a minority, and that's nothing to be shameful of.

On a different note, I've found something that blends art and science well, and I'm interested in it. It's Source Film Maker, which can be used to make both still art (posters), and movies themselves. You'll find that my profile picture is actually a creation of mine on SFM. I don't think any of you would be really interested, as most of it it models from video games you guys likely don't play, and it's near impossible to make a career out of it, but it's something that helps me flex both sides of INTP-itude (INTPness sounds too phallic).

#### dark+matters

##### Active Member

^In my opinion, that vlogger seems very INTP. I don't see her as being predominantly any of the other of the 16 types.

Being an artist is a fundamental part of my own identity and I don't ever see that changing. I think all the intuitives are often quite artsy. Several artists I met are now either looking at or actually going in the STEM direction now that they are a little older. I didn't care for math in high school, but I think that has a lot to do with the teaching style and not the subject itself. I have certainly warmed up to it now and will be doing tons of it for the rest of my life probably. After doing enough art, I realized I would be far, far better at it if I was more comfortable with math. No matter what you do, there's going to come a point at which knowing more math will help you to perform better. It took me a while to really understand that.

I'm volunteering for something which brought my attention to a new campaign to change STEM to STEAM in order to include art and design in the old "science, technology, engineering, math" acronym. I approve.

http://stemtosteam.org/

#### JimJambones

^ I think a more introverted ENTP, Ne dominant, but INTP is as strong possibility. It's nearly impossible to tell.

But yeah, art was an important outlet for me when I was a kid and I would draw the most unusual things and come up with some wacky ideas.

#### Gather_Wanderer

##### Space Jokes.
I thought I was an artist as a kid. Used to sketch a lot but then I realized what I liked in sketching was the architecture. I wasn't a free-flower without rules; I liked complex patterns and tried to abstract them as much as possible before re-establishing some kind of order. That was fun. Haven't really doodled like that in years. I must have an artistic side though, since I'm a fiction author. The way I write can be described as 'plausible in an implausible way'. I keep the setting modern and the characters human but then stretch the physics to their breaking point.

I'm a scientist but not technically an engineer. Well, I study physics full time (entering grad school). My biggest interest is in cosmology but I don't like to close myself off of the engineering mindset. Actually one of my recent reads "Letters to a Young Scientist" encourages approaching your discipline with the principles of an entrepreneur. Build the skill set necessary to approach solving your problem of interest. I do that and shun the labels.

I'm SO in agreement with the STEAM thing.

#### propianotuner1

##### Proconsul
I'm pretty certain that I'm INTP, and I've woken up to Bach and Graupner kantatas every day for over forty years. However, I can't just enjoy art. Everything bit of information I can cram in about it has to be laid bare. And I love math, too. In fact, pretty much anything with an academic side to it feels like an illicit substance.

Trust me, there's math in music too. Just try and comprehend the math here:

#### Belgaer

##### what is this
I have a technical talent for art ... I've won awards, and made some sales. I enjoy the short bursts of whimsy, but I'm not an artist.
I don't have the passion. I don't have those brilliant sparks of intuition that drive me relentlessly to complete my creation.
Damn it. this is my life.... Except I didn't figure it out until recently. I studied art in a purely technical sense (drawing and traditional oil painting landscapes) from age 11 onward, ended up getting a BA in Art and dropping my other major in Environmental Science (which I loved in high school) because I clashed with the professors. Big mistake, as I'm now realising that--despite defining myself as an "artist" all my life-- I'd be much happier in the sciences.
I didn't notice at the time that I struggled to find pure inspiration from within myself, as other artists do easily. I never had enough "feelings" to relate to other artists, either, which makes it very hard to be in the arts world in any capacity. My art is either about exploring techniques or more along the lines of "illustrating" a concept: making political posters, and realistically interpreting an object/scene in front of me. The problem is that its not enough of a challenge for me, to motivate myself to make art and sell it. People would buy it, and have in the past. But I'm not "driven" to keep creating in that way.

So yes, I am an INTP artist... but its not going well. I recently tried learning about programming (because of what people say about INTPs!) and found that I really like it. Now I'm trying to figure out how to salvage the past 12 years of arts education and make it into a useable career.

#### Architect

##### Professional INTP
Trust me, there's math in music too. Just try and comprehend the math here:
No there's not, the whole "Math in music" thing is rather stupid I think. I went from having no math and being a professional musician, to switching gears into getting a physics PhD. So if there is math in music, then how come I knew nothing and had to start from scratch in physics? Why hasn't anybody written a closed form solution for a Bach Cantata?

Not picking on you but it's stupider than stupid. The idea comes about because Bach wrote this music for 16th century Harpsichord and Organ, both of which were rather percussive instruments (Organ due to low airflow). So in his music contrapuntal texture, rhythm and articulation was necessary so the music didn't muddle up. In other words, obvious musical patterns, regularity and repetition. Now every nabob runs around saying "music is math" thinking they're saying something profound.

Furthermore if you actually play his music to a professional level, you find worlds within worlds, and none of the mechanistic supposed mathematical patterns people opine about. He was a genius for layered dissonance that you don't overtly hear because of the contrapuntal lines and the speed at which they go by. I think in his music you can hear the early warning signs of the destruction of tonality that came about in the early 20th century.

#### Architect

##### Professional INTP
OT: my INTP friend (who also was an engineer) was given a personality test by one of his professors, and my buddy came out as "Artistic engineer/INTP". I see no distinction between art (plastic art, music, drama, etc) science and engineering. It's simply a spectrum.

My artist wife (INFJ) has described the process of doing art and the qualia is hardly different from what I do. Highlights

• Immersion with the subject
• Problem solving (how do I get chair to sit down?)
• Decision making with material and subject matter
• Expression of idea

While there is a definite practical utility to engineering projects and the details differ, it's not otherwise much different. I have as much choice as does an artist sitting down to a blank canvas.

#### ActiveMind

##### Member
I've been drawing since childhood so I love art. Friends and family say I should go online and sell my stuff but I tend to get inside my head about it and end up never committing to it. Honestly, I don't think I'm good enough, while I've seen people who have a lesser understanding of anatomy pull some good numbers on Ebay. It's very hard for me to share something so personal for others to critique unless I'm completely satisfied with the end result(accuracy and precision), which is maybe 10%, IMO.

While Math is my worst subject, I don't hate it. I find it is essential to certain INTP career pursuits. It's important to go back and relearn any particular areas of weakness, however, I believe it is critical to find a method that teaches the concepts thoroughly for INTP to gain complete understanding. Anyone here try Kumon?

Also, for anyone who is into art history, many artists used geometry to create some of history's greatest paintings, architecture, etc., particularly the Renaissance period.

#### INTPWolf

##### Contemplating reality, one script at a time
I have an artistic streak, i used to draw all the time, i still do when i find the time. I think art is a subjective term, you can see artistic qualities in just about anything.

I consider myself an artist, i see immense beauty in the clickety sound of gears, the whine of servo motors, the werr of worm drive, the hum of a transformer and the clack of solenoids. That's what art is to me now.

This is what electronics sounds like to me.

The emperor approves.

#### bleo

##### Member
this post doesn't necessarily reflect visual art, but i thought it belonged here because my topic pertains to art.

anyways, on to my original topic:

i'm not an engineer. science is great, i love science, but i'm not about to pursue a career in neurophysics. i hate math with a deep, fiery passion. yet, according to every damn thing i read about intp's, we're all head over heels for all of that science-math bull. but, to reiterate, i'm an artist, not an engineer!

i value art above any thing in this world. i'll be walking down the street and i'll be immersed in the next drawing i'm going to make or world i'm going to build. i'm constantly trying to learn and better myself. all these are traits of an intp, but sometimes i feel like however many times i've seen the letter I-N-F-P as the results of a personality test, i still doubt that it's correct.

i guess i'm in a minority, then. how many other art-inclined intp's are there out there? i want to know i'm not the only one with this problem.

Your thread topic made me chuckle. Somehow you've summarized my whole dilemma. Sit down, kids - I'll tell you a story.

I have always been inclined to art, the kind of art you've described. I like making my own worlds, base some interesting/plot-twisting/visual narrative to what I draw. Then, diving into the world of fantasy (games I'm playing, novels I read) and constantly want to express them into a visually appealing presentation. In school, I was known as the artist. On top of winning several awards, getting full marks, and selling a couple of my exhibited pieces.

Plot twist, I enrolled into Engineering in University and currently studying post-grad Mechanical Engineering. Didn't mind it too much in undergrad, and I still look on to that promise of creating something with the aid of science. Though, you are absolutely right. They are both different.

Art is fantastic, but I can easily get bored with that in the end - you're just entertaining/inciting social debate in people. People in this field talk in frilly feelings and partying (at least the youngsters of this course), so I can't relate with those people. Also, in the field of crazies, anything new didn't seem all that special.

Engineering however, is promising. You get a lot of people who get deep into meaningful discussions in a rational and logical way. I like that. You also have the skills to bring bigger impact to society, and I'm all about the bigger picture. Though in the thick of it, engineering is all about diving into numerical details and solving problems almost in a 'mechanical' sort of way. It should since your ideas will carry heavier consequences. Rarely it encourages the artistic type of creativity (more like smart solutions), although it boasts so. Of course, there are exceptions.

It seems that I want to harmonize both of them somehow. If anyone have opinions to that, I'm all ears! But there you go, my two cents.

##### Anti-Conventionalist
Yes we do,[suck at making art] though that doesn't stop us from wanting to do art (in the broad sense) and wanting to think of ourselves as artists. A lot of that has to do with the Fe inferior. Also the Ti-Ne-Si combination as a master logician, being human we do want some balance and so often INTP's display an interest or desire for the humanities. However see below ... [...].
From a current near graduate INTP in Drama, I live for art, it is all I would like to breathe for. I am not merely referring to theatre, I have a distinct hatred for theatre because it is not art. I see myself as an artist through and through, though it might be unusual for an INTP. There are currently a couple of projects that I am finalising in preparation for rehearsals and performances in the near future, that cannot be called theatre, but rather art. Maybe I will suck for most people that find beauty in realism and pre-modernist art, but even though it might not be the most economic of careers - I insist on devoting my life to art.

It's sort of hard for me to imagine an INTP with passion. Maybe an unquenchable interest and drive.. passion usually involves outwardly emotion.

I like art, personally, but I don't really try and make a profession out of it. It's simply not realistic.
Passion? If passion is outward emotion then I should film myself explaining an idea for a artwork and post it around here. Outward emotion is an understatement, my whole soul seems to soar when seeing and making good art. (not the pretty picture type (I absolutely hate pretty picture "art" and the misconception that it should be considered art (I call it a craft at best and utter crap at the very least))
(seeing any type of crap on a canvas that has the sole purpose of being pretty or is about some type of beauty is like hearing yet another pop song about love or sex. I cannot stand it any more, away with the misconceptions of what art is!)
*artist here*

I might be close to broke most of the time, but I love what I do. I also loved math growing up, until about 11th grade when I got teachers who stopped explaining the concepts properly and just treated teaching as a rote process of memorization. I haven't picked up higher maths since, but I suspect I'd enjoy it too, given the right time to digest it.

I tend to have a similar definition of art as Hiam; the conveying of an idea through a medium appropriate for its reception.

I'm not of the modern-art opinion that anything is art, though. Art is art when it has a form/presentation that manages to communicate something in a way more nuanced than the purely informational mediums could provide. If I get nothing out of seeing splattered colors on a canvass, then it wasn't art (to me). Naturally art has no 'objective' definition, but a reasonably useful 'relative' definition can be devised for it. =)

3D animation/FX seems to be my favorite medium lately, but I also dabble with FL Studio, lyric-writing, and short-story writing. Programming is also wonderful and I've started learning PHP lately.
When I was in my final year of high school, I wanted to do something in the field of science, possibly something in quantum physics or so, and after a couple of different job shadows I could not take it any more, all the jobs were boring as all hell. Don't get me wrong I love the field, but there must be more to my life. I then decided on drama as I had no (and I really mean it) technical skill or talent in drawing, painting, sculpting, etc.. What I could do well was act and and a bit of dance, so drama was how I would make my art.
Today, after a couple of years of study in drama, I can Direct and Write my own art as I want it (heck I could even act in it.) As my self given title (Anti-Conventionalist) states I have a love for conceptual art and despise (oh wait I said it above already (did I mention I hate pretty pictures?))
[...] I'm not of the modern-art opinion that anything is art, though. Art is art when it has a form/presentation that manages to communicate something in a way more nuanced than the purely informational mediums could provide.[...]
I am of the opinion that anything can be a medium for art, then as you say: " Art is art when it has a form/presentation that manages to communicate something in a way more nuanced than the purely informational mediums could provide."
To me this statement makes complete sense as to why art is art and not pretty pictures or entertainment, If you keep in mind that any medium can be used to make the art. It is not about the medium (though some have a better effect than others (depending on what the intention is)) but rather what the artist wants to communicate and the cognitive/conceptual thought process(es) that led her/him to use the mediums (and method) that she/he has chosen.

*also a note to creative INTP's, when confronted with conceptual art, look up the title of the piece. Very often one can then deduct what it really means and why it was done in the specific manner chosen.

#### Neko-sama

##### INTP cat
I'm an INTP artist. At least I am assuming drawing falls under the umbrella term of art, which most will agree it does. (Who doesn't agree? Are you only disagreeing to argue?)

I've been drawing consistently for over a year now, and rapidly increasing in skill. I only draw when I get an idea, and I've found if I don't finish the drawing all at once, I won't finish it at all. some days I draw for hours straight, and then go weeks without a single doodle. It just depends if I get an idea good enough to inspire me to carry it out, and finish it before I lose interest.

I also write, but I rarely finish things, for the same INTP trait reason. I get bored of the idea and move on to whatever is the next most interesting thing.

I thought I hated math as well. It was actually reading about INTPs that helped me. I started viewing each individual problem in my math book as a challenge that I know I'm smart enough to finish to completion. Looking at it that way makes it more fun for me.

#### Pto

##### Redshirt
I've actually made the decision to do both with my life. I actually wrote my application essay for colleges about how it's not art alone that I love, and it's not engineering, but it's creating. I've done arts all my life- dance, music, and visual arts. I'm not too shabby with any of those but really I've done very well with visual arts.
On top of that though, I really love science so I decided engineering, where I could essentially combine both and make something of the world, would be a good fit.

#### QuickTwist

##### Spiritual "Woo"
Depends on how you define "art". What does the word "art" mean to you?

I wonder when the word drifted from the original craft/skill meaning to its æsthetics-centered contemporary connotation.
Right on the mark Kuu.

Why limit yourself to a specific artform to produce art. I consider my responses in forums and such to be art.

Let art encompass your entirety, in everything, you should be manifesting your self expression into or as an art form.

This is coming from someone who is not well practiced in any "official" kind of art, but I consider myself to be an artist nonetheless.

#### bvanevery

##### Redshirt who doesn't die
INTPs suck at producing art.
Baloney. Prove it. I frankly can't think of anything more ridiculous I've heard in awhile. Where do you think all the abstract artists came from? All the various movements and manifestos?

but, to reiterate, i'm an artist, not an engineer!
I'm both. It's a problem insofar as I've had difficulty combining the 2 realms into 1 life activity that is financially sustainable.

A lot of that has to do with the Fe inferior.
My Fe is plenty inferior. It's ART, not people pleasing!

I've decided. All INTPs who suck at Art, are hereby disqualified from generalizing their lack of ability to other INTPs. I'd be good with a survey of "do you suck at Art?" in various INTP forums to get some reality to this.

Everyone sucks at Art just because you do... what a bunch of fools. Have I established my inferior Fe cred yet?

It seems that I want to harmonize both of them somehow. If anyone have opinions to that, I'm all ears! But there you go, my two cents.
It's hard. I'm not there yet.

#### Inquisitor

##### Well-Known Member
Baloney. Prove it. I frankly can't think of anything more ridiculous I've heard in awhile. Where do you think all the abstract artists came from? All the various movements and manifestos?
You must not have read my posts. Try to take your time before writing.

#### bvanevery

##### Redshirt who doesn't die
You must not have read my posts. Try to take your time before writing.
Pretty sure I did the 1st time. Just went back and double checked. You didn't write that many posts. You said what you said, don't see how you didn't say it. Didn't find any context which qualifies it. You're just wrong that INTPs suck at fine art. Period, The End. No basis for this at all.

Begs questions: what characteristics do make a person good at fine art?

How many INTPs are good artists, by their own estimate, or anyone else's?

#### Intolerable

##### Banned
As an INTP type I was very much into Art in my childhood and my twenties. I was very good at it so that probably explains it a bit.

Looking deeper though I see it as an outlet for my personality type. Being naturally inquisitive the various techniques and learned value from Artistic mediums really works for INTP types. It also gives you a sort of job liberation in the classical sense.

I chose Comp Sci as an adult not because it was more interesting than Art but because it paid better. I would say both can present complexity where you need it and both can deny it as well. Design classes in college really turned me off to drawing professionally. I highly, highly dislike being told what should be when I know better. Arrogance I guess but there it is.

@Bvanevery: To me the characteristics that make a good Artist are all the qualities INTPs have. Locking yourself into a project until you've mastered it sounds perfect to me. Sadly it just doesn't pay and the professional Art world sucks. You do get way more freedom and way more respect as a software developer.

#### bvanevery

##### Redshirt who doesn't die
Yeah, I haven't given up the idea of writing software for money yet, despite how much I loathe so much of what the industry does. There's way too much money in it. Plus I've spent way too much time thinking about it. Painting, maybe I'll be a great painter someday, but I see no route to financial well being that way. I don't basically like the idea of handing over a finished painting to someone else either. Maybe I need to do printmaking, so I always have the original.

#### Morel Panic

##### Revenant
Pretty sure I did the 1st time. Just went back and double checked. You didn't write that many posts. You said what you said, don't see how you didn't say it. Didn't find any context which qualifies it. You're just wrong that INTPs suck at fine art. Period, The End. No basis for this at all.
Depending on how you define "fine art", I think that it can be reasonable to say it's something that an INTP personality isn't good at. As Inquisitor mentioned, the school of design presented in The Fountainhead is more about people-pleasing than actually producing truth/beauty. Basically, their design process is that person A makes a design that is barely functional, then person B makes it superficially "pretty". This is the way a lot of people see artistic beauty.

On the flip side, I think an INTP personality is one of the best at pursuing the sort of beauty that comes from deep, uncompromising devotion to a pure logical ideal. Artists like Bach and Da Vinci had a deep devotion to their craft. I don't think either ever thought much about producing "fine art" or making superficial changes to be more popular. Nevertheless, both would be called "fine art" now. Whatever that means.

#### bvanevery

##### Redshirt who doesn't die
Depending on how you define "fine art", I think that it can be reasonable to say it's something that an INTP personality isn't good at.
I think that's playing definitional games to suit one's agenda, rather than paying attention to obvious facts on the ground. Find some INTP artists, widely recognized as being good artists, and there you go. Perhaps part of the challenge is not knowing for sure whether people are INTP or not.

#### NewInternet

##### Redshirt
I'd say that the "INTP" may have a disposition towards "anti-art" and satire/comedy and aspects of film making. I propose this because these types of expressions are by and large about more about expressing one's understanding of how something works rather than expressing one's emotional experience. One's understanding is in essence one's perspective if that is what one is most driven by. I don't actually know his type, but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcel_Duchamp was a Dadist artist (anti-art) who (sort of) gave up art to play chess. If any "Fine" artist was an INTP, this his him.

"...he had rejected the work of many of his fellow artists (like Henri Matisse) as "retinal" art, intended only to please the eye. Instead, Duchamp wanted to put art back in the service of the mind."

"Duchamp elaborated, "The chess pieces are the block alphabet which shapes thoughts; and these thoughts, although making a visual design on the chess-board, express their beauty abstractly, like a poem. ... I have come to the personal conclusion that while all artists are not chess players, all chess players are artists."
This quote makes me think of this Albert Einstein quote: "Pure mathematics is, in its way, the poetry of logical ideas." Also, Albert Einstein was a devoted musician and lover of Mozart and Bach. He joked that he would've been a musician if he wasn't a scientist. "Mozart is the greatest composer of all. Beethoven created his music, but the music of Mozart is of such purity and beauty that one feels he merely found it - that it has always existed as part of the inner beauty of the universe waiting to be revealed." -AE

Ok, two more quotes from Duchamp:
"Upon his return to Paris in 1923, Duchamp was, in essence, no longer a practicing artist. Instead, his main interest was chess, which he studied for the rest of his life to the exclusion of most other activities."

"You think you're doing something entirely your own, and a year later you look at it and you see actually the roots of where your art comes from without your knowing it at all."

Comedy/satire also makes sense for INTP-types because it is a mix of engineering, philosophy,logic, and literature. Again, satire/comedy is by and large about understanding how things work and then playing with this information: finding lapses in logic, putting things into categories, finding analogies and patterns an subsequently playing with these. The mechisms in a good comedy script, such as call backs, are some of the devices which are very musical, but also quite mechanical, and satisfying when done correctly.

The first four or five seasons of Thirtyrock is a good example of a INTPish comedy. Nathan Fielder is a good example, in my estimation, is somewhat INTPish.

That being said, it's impossible to say what artist was an INTP or not.

#### bvanevery

##### Redshirt who doesn't die
Wonder why he gave up art? I can see the attraction of chess, as a game developer myself, but that wouldn't make me completely shelve art. It's definitely on the backburner for me now though. I'm having problems of nihilism with the art. I'm going to try a remedy: working on very small black ink scribbles that I don't have to care about. I think I find full blown painting too burdensome to work on, in the absence of any firm idea of what I care about in art. So the point is to work on something that consumes very little time and is pretty much no commitment or investment. Maybe something will arise from it. Maybe nothing will, in which case I won't have lost much of anything by doing it.

#### Nebulous

##### fake woke
I don't think they're common. INTPs suck at producing art.
*throws art supplies at you angrily*
I'm a fantastic artist, thank you very much. One of the best in my grade.
If you really are INTP, I would give math a second try and not go off of unpleasant memories of doing math in school. You might be (pleasantly) surprised. Until recently, I too was in the camp that thought I hated math. I would say hating math and/or struggling to understand it and solve problems is a pretty big indication that you are not INTP.

Otherwise, I would re-evaluate and look at other personality types. You mentioned INFP...
I don't consider myself good at math. I haven't exactly had the best math teachers, which definitely was a part of that.
I wouldn't say I hate math, but it's not my strong suit. I'm in the most basic math class that my high school offers and most people in the class are able to grasp the lesson better than I can. :/ The teacher I have this year is fantastic, and I stay after every day, but I still don't understand how to do things from the last quarter.

#### Nebulous

##### fake woke
Also... here's a mix of engineering and art

#### gps

##### INTP 5w4 Iconoclast
Just scanned through all the previous posts in this thread today.

A pair of related factors were glaringly obvious:
(1) An INTP is an INTP is an INTP, to paraphrase Gertrude Stein
(2) No ADDITIONAL personality typing -- using systems other than the MBTI -- was used by a SINGLE participant.

In other groups folks mix and match MBTI with enneagram with socionics ... whatever.
In both INTPcentral and INTPcomplex peeps would post their enneagram types, IQs, Multiple Intelligence Test results, etc.
This allowed myself and others to notice vague or intuitive correlations which we could follow up by further investigation.

An INTP author included in her Enneagram Made Easy a chart which depicted correspondence frequencies of BOTH.
The most common Enneagram type for INTPs is the 5/thinker with 4/artist next, and 9/peace_keeper bringing up the rear.
For those who've read both MBTI literature and Enneagram literature -- such as myself -- I'm sure there is precious little mystery that 4w5 and 5w4 enneagram type-wing types blend ARTistry with the creative THOUGHT most associate with Engineering.

E-Prime also comes to mind in the wake of the dual (mis)use of am' in " i'm not an engineer, i'm an artist."
And there are 400 lb women who fancy themselves ballerinas and hypocritical thugs which identify with being qua BEING Christians'.
-- Yes, I've tested as an enneagram 5w4 Iconoclast, so it's frequently difficult for me to NOT smash Iconic identities such as engineer' and artist'.
Though sometimes I merely attempt all parties to ground their identities in PERFORMANCE ... the ability to act-as-if, function-as-if.

As someone invited-to and who DID participate in an annual local art show 3 years in a row I was provided with sufficient evidence of Real Artists' to form a Venn Diagram of the following factors: (1) a DSM diagnosis (usually cluster B), (2) a drug of choice, (4) a pretentiousness which finds them asserting that mere anthropogenic artifacts of their manufacture are qua ARE art' ... whatever art' means, (8) a proclivity to sell shit' which they and a purchaser co-manifesting Folie à deux beg-the-question IS art'.
Prior to my experiences with these Real Artists' I had worked as various kinds of engineer'.
In the run up to being invited to participate for the first time there were conversations with a pair of Real Artists' who ran an art co-op in my little village.
One of these claimed that, in the process of him earning' an MFA in ceramics, he was told that it takes The 3 Cs' -- Collector, Curator, and Critic -- to make' an artist ...
To which I responded, "Is it true that art is about beauty?" to which he answered "yes".
To which I continued with the 2nd part of the syllogism: "Is it true that beauty is in the eye of the beholder?" to which he answered "yes".
To which I responded, "Fuck the collector, the curator, and the critic! Art is in the eye/mind of the beholder."
I was one of two featured artists' featured in the podunk local news rag out of 35 participants in that, my first, art show in which I attempted to SELL nothing, but exhibited stuff I engineered' out of Q-tip(r), tin cans, 10 ft lengths of PVC pipe, and various other not-necessarily-artsy materials/media.

I neither work-as an engineer' anymore, nor do I participate in art shows' where pretentious asses attempt to sell shit to swine as if pearls.
My personal experience has provided me with a preponderance of evidence that *most* engineers operate as artless dorks' and most Real Artists' carry on as Pretentious Asses.
... but only to the extent that *most* engineers would test-as enneagram 5w6 and most Pretentious Ass artists' would test-as 4w3 (most performing' artists may qualify-as or test-as 3w4).

If there are any Enneagram 4w5 Bohemians or 5w4 Iconoclasts in the viewing audience, I'm pretty sure we can un-impale this thread off the horns of this false dichotomous dilemma of Artist XOR Engineer'

Yes, I've been taking MBTI character type tests since the early 80s and have ALWAYS tested as INTP ... which by itself indicates NOTHING conclusive by way of differentiating proclivities towards playing out one's life as-if mutual-exclusively engineer' OR artist' ... as if neither' or both' were not viable options.

#### Tenacity

##### More than methods to the madness
this post doesn't necessarily reflect visual art, but i thought it belonged here because my topic pertains to art.

anyways, on to my original topic:

i'm not an engineer. science is great, i love science, but i'm not about to pursue a career in neurophysics. i hate math with a deep, fiery passion. yet, according to every damn thing i read about intp's, we're all head over heels for all of that science-math bull. but, to reiterate, i'm an artist, not an engineer!

i value art above any thing in this world. i'll be walking down the street and i'll be immersed in the next drawing i'm going to make or world i'm going to build. i'm constantly trying to learn and better myself. all these are traits of an intp, but sometimes i feel like however many times i've seen the letter I-N-F-P as the results of a personality test, i still doubt that it's correct.

i guess i'm in a minority, then. how many other art-inclined intp's are there out there? i want to know i'm not the only one with this problem.
I'm an INTP and I love art. I've been really good at it too - I've won several awards for it. Most of my old friends still remember me for my art. I haven't spoken to them for probably a decade. My favorite art always had a social meaning to it though, so it had a message rather than be art for the sake of art. But from an aesthetics perspective you would think that I'm INFP due to how precise I can get.

I imagine whether being good at or not is less about your personality type and more about your mastery, and that it doesn't come naturally, but I'm not sure... I like to believe that I put in the work and the hours to achieve mastery, but honestly some of it comes super spontaneously too, like the moment had to be the exact "right" conditions: I had to be completely alone for it to "come out". Or, someone I cared about just spoke to me.

I chose not to be an "artist" as a career, however. Yet, (perhaps this is contradictory) I consider myself an artist from the inside, and it influences my approach to building systems. I like to build things that scale, so I apply artistry to logical systems and create things that way, and I consider how someone else would experience whatever I'm working on and how it would make them feel.

#### ZenRaiden

##### One atom of me
I remember when I was small kid, in kindergarden I would constantly draw stuff like, planes, cars, machines, robots, trains, weapons, and stuff that was stereotypical boy stuff. I even used to draw cockpits of airplanes. Id set out to designe a cockpit of airplane and I would go as far as even thinking about ergonomics, before I even knew what ergonomics was. I would think where every button and display had to be and how the stick and rudder had to be placed. I would designe all kinds of catapults, bombers and whatever I saw on tv or in a book. Its only later in life I got the artsy fartsy vibe and did animals and plants and landscapes. Maybe it started with ninja turtles and power rangers and I sort of progressed into more boring stuff. I still did technology stuff though. Id do space shuttles, various space ships and whatever. I even had obsession with drawing aircraft carriers.

But these days I could easily get entertained with drawing horses or nudes or whatever.