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Personality Type : Predetermined?

pjoa09

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Speaks for itself.

I am starting to think its not nurture.

I see a whole lot of ADHD sufferers here and I as a hypochondriac thought I had ADHD and Asperger's.

There are so many similarities between ADHD, Asperger's and being INTP that I am starting to think it's all "part of the plan" .

It is a very subtle yet life altering genetic mutation that occurs in those 8 months.

And a lot of you probably are going to say "no shit".

But I always try to push the possibility of nature as far as possible due to the irrational rooting for the 'blank slate' theory/idea.

It's pretty bold for me to say that your personality is predetermined.

It isn't a break through because my brother is an ESTJ/ESFJ and he has ADHD.
 

digital angel

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I think personality happens to be the outcome of biology/chemistry and environment. So, to an extent it's predetermined and to an extent, it's not.
 

Jennywocky

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Speaks for itself.

I am starting to think its not nurture.

I see a whole lot of ADHD sufferers here and I as a hypochondriac thought I had ADHD and Asperger's.

There are so many similarities between ADHD, Asperger's and being INTP that I am starting to think it's all "part of the plan" .

It is a very subtle yet life altering genetic mutation that occurs in those 8 months.
What?

That's the kind of comment that actually needs some explanation.
 

a detached retina

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between the years 5313 and 5312 BC there was a woman who slowly underwent a genetic mutation in some of her eggs over the course of 8 months that led to todays current INTP phenotype.

No Shit!
 

Hadoblado

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Personality predetermined?


...no shit


...wait wat?

no.
 

Hadoblado

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I'f you're talkin MB type, I'm fairly certain a strong case for environmental influence could be made. For example, intro/extraversion could be significantly altered through a life changing event. What if an extravert is humiliated repeatedly for 10 years, would they still want to express themselves? Could a sensor start using their intuition in the face of life threatening cancer?

On a side note, did you diagnose yourself with hypochondria?
 

xbox

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I'f you're talkin MB type, I'm fairly certain a strong case for environmental influence could be made. For example, intro/extraversion could be significantly altered through a life changing event. What if an extravert is humiliated repeatedly for 10 years, would they still want to express themselves? Could a sensor start using their intuition in the face of life threatening cancer?

On a side note, did you diagnose yourself with hypochondria?

Wow, funny you mentioned it. I was thinking about starting a topic on that very thing.
 

The Gopher

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Personally I don't think there are a lot of ADHD sufferers here. Just INTP's display ADHD traits and are missdiagnosed. That said to be honest I can't really tell what you are getting at in the middle so I might be on the wrong track altogether.

That said I have been diagnosed with ADHD.
I am just going to post this as I keep losing interest. No joke.
 

Hadoblado

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Wow, funny you mentioned it. I was thinking about starting a topic on that very thing.
Yeah I find it crazy how many people on here have the same ideas occur to them.
 

sammael

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It's pretty bold for me to say that your personality is predetermined.
Why..? Is this not a common view..?

I believe Personality Type is predetermined, and I find it hard to argue otherwise, although I am very interested to hear why this could be thought. If Type was that malleable it would be perfectly reasonable for adults to change over a period of time due to external circumstance. Of course we can develop each dichotomy, both our preferred side and the un-preferred, but to change entirely..?

I'f you're talkin MB type, I'm fairly certain a strong case for environmental influence could be made. For example, intro/extraversion could be significantly altered through a life changing event. What if an extravert is humiliated repeatedly for 10 years, would they still want to express themselves? Could a sensor start using their intuition in the face of life threatening cancer?
You're missing the point. Extraversion/Introversion is simply in which world we prefer to focus (extraversion - outward, introversion - inward) and how we draw energy. Extraversion includes everything external, environment, actions etc, not just people. Fundamentally, the person in the above scenario would not become introverted, they may change their behaviour to suit the circumstance, but preference of focus and energy generation would not change. Of course a sensor could (and all do to some degree) use and/or develop their intuition. This does not change preference however, no matter how good they become at using intuition.
 

SkyWalker

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Read about epigenetics (wikipedia is a start).

There are other factors in the ecology of your body than turn genes on/off.
 

GYX_Kid

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does anyone have any specific articles/research on this? i'm actually going into this topic for a school project haha.
 

Architect

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Yes I agree. Ever had kids? Mine, and nephews and nieces that I've known from birth were all born with their MBTI personality.
 

pjoa09

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To say the least, I was bullied.

Though, I must say I have schizophrenic and ADHD suffering relatives. The 8 months you spend in a womb is a retracted statement. I sincerely don't know what the fuck I was trying to say there.

Can't say I am an extrovert, I was always quiet.

On a side note,

Diagnosing yourself as a hypochondriac.

HA!
 

Hadoblado

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I used to be judging when I was in school, I'm now a very strong perceiver. I read somewhere that personality stabilises by thirty, but I have no idea where I got the info from.
 

Jennywocky

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I used to be judging when I was in school, I'm now a very strong perceiver. I read somewhere that personality stabilises by thirty, but I have no idea where I got the info from.
I don't know either.

When we assess stuff like this, it demands a lot of framing and reframing.

  • Were you ever a judger at all, or were you just forced to be one / identify as one because of your environment, so now you're finally "you"?
  • Are you really a perceiver, or are you just currently in part of your life where you are either stretching to try new things and/or have forced to be more open for some reason, or have had life experiences that led you to be more open?
  • Are you just very moderate and not really strong in either?
See what I mean? Lots of questions that need to be answered in discussions like this one.

I can say that all three of my kids were different at birth... distinctly different... and they haven't really changed their basic nature since birth. My poor extroverted son had a rough spot at age 4-5 because the rest of us are all introverts, and we were too heavy on trying to make him fit in.

Trying to quiet him down and keep him self-controlled too much actually made him depressed, anxious, frustrated, and emotionally off-kilter, and we had to allow him to bring a certain level of noise and energy into the family dynamics rather than trying to put too many limits on him... he just couldn't be an introvert, and when he tried, he was just a lousy introvert + his extroverted talents disappeared.

I think we do absorb parts of our environment that temper us. I am still very P in many ways, but marriage, raising kids, dealing with lots of SFJs really added some structure to my life because it was unavoidable and/or necessary, and now it's like wearing that car seatbelt -- before I started wearing one (back when it was still legal to go without), I felt hemmed in by it, but nowadays I feel naked and loose in the car if I don't have it on and it's uncomfortable. So that sort of thing can happen.
 

Lobstrich

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I'm an INTP and I don't have ADHD. I've been tested, and I do not have it.

I believe nurture is still a part of it, I doubt I would have been an introvert (not to mention an INTP) if it wasn't because I isolated myself. I've been told that I was very outgoing when I was child, I began the isolation when I was around 7 or 8. Most children are outgoing and extroverted.
 

Artsu Tharaz

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I used to be judging when I was in school, I'm now a very strong perceiver. I read somewhere that personality stabilises by thirty, but I have no idea where I got the info from.
Do you know what Judging and Perceiving mean?
 

ummidk

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Well I'd say its definently predetermined because everything is, but as far as nurture having nothing to do with it, I'm not sure but i'd guess nurture plays some role. I'm pretty sure identical twins don't share the same personalities. Although I'm also hearing now that identical twins might not be 100% identical.
 

sammael

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I believe nurture is still a part of it, I doubt I would have been an introvert (not to mention an INTP) if it wasn't because I isolated myself. I've been told that I was very outgoing when I was child, I began the isolation when I was around 7 or 8. Most children are outgoing and extroverted.
Why did you isolate yourself? There's not enough information there but it sounds like your introversion led to you isolating yourself, not that isolating yourself led to introversion. If you had extraverted preference you would not isolate yourself due to internal circumstances.

Children by nature must depend on others for survival, thus perhaps causing more what could be perceived as extraverted behaviour, and a lot of introverted bahaviour requires a degree of maturity, both of which could make preference a bit blurry at young ages. But I believe the internal/external focus and internal/external energy generation is present from birth, just not perhaps at the same strength as it may be as the child grows, matures and develops.

I have seen six month old babies exhibit extraverted tendencies, interacting to the highest degree that they can with the external world and people, and this appears to make them happy and excited. Likewise I have seen the same age exhibit introverted tendencies, being quiet and self-contained and seeming content without much interaction with the outside world and people. These are obviously extremes, these tendencies will vary greatly depending where on the scale the individual is. However it is always possible throughout the entire age range of children to see there are some that exhibit strong extravert tendencies, and some that exhibit strong introvert tendencies.
 

Lobstrich

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Why did you isolate yourself? There's not enough information there but it sounds like your introversion led to you isolating yourself, not that isolating yourself led to introversion. If you had extraverted preference you would not isolate yourself due to internal circumstances
My theory is that I isolated myself, because my stepfather (whom I consider my father since my biological father wasn't around) was a heroin addict, I experienced alot with him, don't want to go into too much detail as I've already explained him in like 3 posts and I feeling like an "attention whore" every time. Because of the stuff I experienced with im combined with me just being a "rough kid" I alienated alot of my piers (this was around when I was 7 or 8) Only a few of them were really open minded enough to not push me away completely. When they gave me a chance I just kind of didn't really care. Isolated myself. I looked on my piers who were 'divorce children' and thought "What a bunch of fucking whiners" (if you do not agree with those kind of people being whiners, there's another thread where I've discussed that with a bunch of people as well, hehe) I then looked at my step father and thought "What a fucking loser" and decided to act like neither. Which is where the isolation actually came. I didn't want to be with people because I was afraid they'd keep going "aww poor you" which I absolutely couldn't stand, still can't.

It's all a theory though, it's a difficult thing, analyzing your own childhood behaviour.
 

wadlez

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You're missing the point. Extraversion/Introversion is simply in which world we prefer to focus (extraversion - outward, introversion - inward) and how we draw energy. Extraversion includes everything external, environment, actions etc, not just people. Fundamentally, the person in the above scenario would not become introverted, they may change their behaviour to suit the circumstance, but preference of focus and energy generation would not change. Of course a sensor could (and all do to some degree) use and/or develop their intuition. This does not change preference however, no matter how good they become at using intuition.
True dat. Its good to see someone who really understands Jung and MBTI.

On a side note, did you diagnose yourself with hypochondria?
People say they are a hypochondriac when they believe they have some major illness when they simply have a cough or convince themselves they have a psychological disorder just by reading the diagnostic criteria. They don't mean that they actually have been diagnosed with Hypochondria.

Back to the main point.
Babies who are yet to have life experience exhibit behaviour expected of types and continue this behaviour through out there life (as per sammaels post). MRI scans have found a neurological basis behind MBTI types. One of which I have previously mentioned in other threads, is that introverts show higher levels of cortical arousal than extroverts. This in turn is believed to cause introverts to be content in low stimulation environments and quickly to become anxious under pressure while extroverts are bored without constant engagement.

"I used to be judging when I was in school, I'm now a very strong perceiver. I read somewhere that personality stabilises by thirty, but I have no idea where I got the info from."

I think many people on here thinking about MBTI would do well to read Carl Jungs; the psychological types. For an INTJ changing to a perceiver, or INTP, means that your primary function became introverted Thinking rather than introverted iNtuition, which is a massive change. Don't confuse being a bit more assertive with changing in type.

Since your type was INTJ according to MBTI theory you are still INTJ. Its funny, the quickest way I've been able to identify INTJ's is by the fact they don't like the permanence of MBTI type
 

scorpiomover

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One thing that I found really interesting on this subject, was when I was watching Professor Michael Sandel give a series of lectures on political philosophy at Harvard, which was televised for broadcast on the BBC. At one point, he stated that first-born children are more ambitious and more successful than their siblings. He then asked the first-borns to raise their hands. About 70% of a class of over 100, raised their hands. He then pointed out that he was a first-born too.

I find it incredibly interesting, how birth order seems to be much more important than genetics.
 

Hadoblado

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Hmmm it's been awhile since I was at this thread and apparently I have been discussed!

Re: changing from INTJ.
I have read up more on the topic and am a little better informed, but I'm still not certain in this area. I was certain in many beliefs to the point of arrogant and cruel disdain of conflicting opinions, and any weak points I had I dismissed as irrelevant. If anything I believe myself to have been an INTP in a terrible environment to be one.
My perception increased to the topside of the scale when I was in college, I don't know how high it was before but it measures very highly on all the tests I've taken, and many of the questions I scored judging on I believe may have been a consequence of my interpretation of the questions (though that sounds pretty weak now I write it down).

As for changing MBTI, I've read up more on that as well and I agree what I wrote before was naive. How about:

An extrovert is locked away in an orphanage in Romania without any external stimuli for 15 years. They are blindfolded and every precaution is taken to deprive them of external reality. They are only allowed introverted thought, and their ability to interact with the outside world withers and dies (if they ever had anything more than the preference to use it). They are then released into the world. Are they an extrovert?
 

Col

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An extrovert is locked away in an orphanage in Romania without any external stimuli for 15 years. They are blindfolded and every precaution is taken to deprive them of external reality. They are only allowed introverted thought, and their ability to interact with the outside world withers and dies (if they ever had anything more than the preference to use it). They are then released into the world. Are they an extrovert?
There would be massive shock, but I presume they would become more extroverted for the experience if anything. If you starve someone of food, are they going to want to eat? Of course they are.
 

pjoa09

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An extrovert is locked away in an orphanage in Romania without any external stimuli for 15 years. They are blindfolded and every precaution is taken to deprive them of external reality. They are only allowed introverted thought, and their ability to interact with the outside world withers and dies (if they ever had anything more than the preference to use it). They are then released into the world. Are they an extrovert?
How about an introverted orphan who needs to communicate with random people in order to survive?

Just like Col said, he will love toilets and bed time.

I used to try to make friends, but eventually I realised the peace of not being in the position where your thoughts and desires were made a mock of.

I saw that when I was by myself I was happier.

I still have to put up with this extroverted sensing world. In fact, more than ever before. But the time I spend in my room is always worth it.
 

scorpiomover

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I did a lot of the MBTI tests in my mid-20s. I always came up as INTP. I also showed all the classical INTP characteristics since I was a child.

However, tests I have done since then, have sometimes said I was an ENTP, and sometimes an INFP. The second-last test I did, only a few days ago, said I was an INFP. Don't know why. Maybe I'm evolving.
 

sammael

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An extrovert is locked away in an orphanage in Romania without any external stimuli for 15 years. They are blindfolded and every precaution is taken to deprive them of external reality. They are only allowed introverted thought, and their ability to interact with the outside world withers and dies (if they ever had anything more than the preference to use it). They are then released into the world. Are they an extrovert?
Putting aside mental instability, which the situation would surely cause, yes, although it starts getting complicated. The fact that they have been forcibly deprived of as much external reality as possible means they will be forced to develop the inner world with almost no opportunity to develop the external or how they interact with the external. The result could potentially be that they are more comfortable (initially at least) with the internal world because that is the only thing they are familiar with/have developed. However the preference would never change. It would come down to wanting/preference to do A. (E) over B. (I) but only having experience/development with B. leading to more use of B. It would really depend on the individual and how they would react/adapt. As was pointed out, it could also potentially be like a blind man suddenly being able to see.

However, tests I have done since then, have sometimes said I was an ENTP, and sometimes an INFP. The second-last test I did, only a few days ago, said I was an INFP. Don't know why. Maybe I'm evolving.
Tests are very often not that accurate, both because of the limits of the test, and our limits in accurately portraying ourselves. It is certainly very possible that you are developing your Feeler side, the development of our lesser functions often does happen with time/age/experience.
 

Jean Paul

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I do not think personality type is predetermined I think it's purely based on the environment in the first few years of life.
 

sammael

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I do not think personality type is predetermined I think it's purely based on the environment in the first few years of life.
That's quite a claim my good man. Forgive me if I've missed it anywhere, but what is the reasoning behind this belief?
 

Artsu Tharaz

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That's quite a claim my good man. Forgive me if I've missed it anywhere, but what is the reasoning behing this belief?
It requires two basic premises: that type is not determined at birth, but that it doesn't change after the first few years of life.

When we are born, our view of the world is very much still developing, and it may well be the case that depending on the specific sequence of events, and ways our brain is best able to make sense of these events, we could end up developing into several different types (dependent moreso on the personal environment than on the shared). However, once we have a solidified worldview, which probably happens at about 2 years of age or so, that our brain loses the flexibility required to interpret the world through a different function set/ordering.

It may still be the case under this view that some types are more likely to develop than others, based on genetic factors.

Alternatives:
- type is set in stone at birth/conception
- type is able to change over a life-time, even in non-extreme cases

I'm not sure how we could determine which was the case or not. Personally, I don't think the question is too important, since the implications for any alternative would be such that they would hold true even if type didn't actually change.
 

sammael

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^ Very interesting, thanks Artsu. I had not considered nor contemplated it quite that way before. It is something to think about.
 

Vrecknidj

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Thanks to the neocortex and especially the executive neocortex, humans are far more flexible than many other creatures (though even other mammals who have what appear to be fixed action patterns are themselves rather adaptable).

There is no genetic determinism; it is simply false that one's genotype determines one's fate.

There is no environmental determinism; it is also simply false that one's environment determines one's fate.

However, of course, there are predispositions. A particular combination of genes makes certain futures less likely; a particular combination of environmental effects makes certain futures less likely. Growing up African American in Mississippi in the 1950s sort of forced your hand, but only to a certain degree. Similarly, being raised in a trailer park meth lab probably limits some of your options, and, again, but only to a certain degree.

I rather think that our personality types are affected by quite a number of different things, but aren't determined, per se.

Dave
 

naama

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http://vega.org.uk/video/programme/11

its mostly genes, but also epigenetics(envoronment activating or deactivating genes) has a role too.

But when it comes to MBTI types, i think its more genes than big5 for example. because being social and stuff like that isnt about extraversion and introversion in jungian/MBTI, and this sort of stuff like being social depends more on how you have learned to cope with the environment.
 

Roran

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Of course a sensor could (and all do to some degree) use and/or develop their intuition. This does not change preference however, no matter how good they become at using intuition.
I'll refrain from making guesses as to the commonality of your belief. But, to the point. If preference is not frequency of usage or skill of usage, then what is it?
 
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