• OK, it's on.
  • Please note that many, many Email Addresses used for spam, are not accepted at registration. Select a respectable Free email.
  • See https://www.intpforum.com/threads/upgrade-at-10-am-gmt.27631/

Psychonauts. Enlightenment or drug induced illusion of enlightenment?

higs

Omg wow imo
Local time
Today, 22:34
Joined
Apr 3, 2012
Messages
1,998
Location
Armchair
hang around the LSD sections of bluelight and other such places and you'll see loads of members claiming they have been enlightened by the experience of taking acid and various psychedelics. Many of them have this mentality which I find really comical of "me vs the sheeple who never took drugs" They seem to consider that this chemical granted them access to higher knowledge and perception (lol at the arrogance of the Psychonaut community).

On the other hand many do seem to be intelligent and quite lucid and I took LSD twice last year and have definitely experienced a feeling of change within myself, which I can only describe as a kind of widening of my perception, a step-back from the values which I had previously believed to be a-given. Basically the world around me looks different, so it definitely changed something within me. it seems a little ridiculous to imagine that a drug would grant you access to "higher perception" and seems far more likely that the effect of the drug is precisely to create an illusion of enlightenment. I suppose having your perceptions radically changed for twelve hours (basically being insane for 12 hours) would make you understand that the world around you is only as it is because of the way you decide to look at it and the Chemistry of your brain, and therefore sort of make you "wiser", or more open-minded. I'm interested in what forum members think of this, both those who have tried Psychedelics and those who have not. If you have tried them, do you feel different? Or is this just me attaching too much importance to the event of me taking it, relating everything back to it, in which case you could say that psychedelics produce a kind of monomania because you're somehow traumatizing yourself with it. I'm a bit drunk and usually speak French so excuse bad sentence structure and and mistakes. Also just in case my post makes you think that psychedelics are awesome and enlightening, I also experienced quite a few bouts of depression as a result of this perception change, I wouldn't go back on my decision of taking it, because it's bloody interesting and I'm fine now. But It also definitely made my life more difficult in many ways.
 

Adaire

still Adaire
Local time
Today, 14:34
Joined
Apr 3, 2009
Messages
3,613



What I was hoping this thread would be about.
 

Void

oblivious
Local time
Today, 23:34
Joined
Feb 5, 2013
Messages
100
Never took psychedelics, probably too afraid of my own mind to ever try them.

I think it is safe to say that the mind gets Pavlov-like conditioned to a certain type of reality(or perspective) after spending enough time in it. Taking psychedelics sets your mind in another type of reality(or perspective), I think. Whether any of what I just said is good or bad, that depends on what you want and what you do with it.
 
Local time
Today, 22:34
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
5,025
My belief is that psychedelics only speed up the natural process of enlightenment, and that though the experience is more dense and powerful, a lot is lost with that method. A lot falls through the mesh of the net. It becomes overwhelming. I think they can be used to get some people "over the hump," but it's mostly an ineffective shortcut because although it produces a very real and lasting change in perception (+3), that change is nothing compared to what can be accomplished... there's no fucking word for this. Philosoxperientially? (+1800) :D The only way to get there through the psychedelic route is to trip 24/7 and evaluate the new world from scratch, whereas the "natural" way is to embrace and actively pursue schizophrenia and tie your perception together as you go, the key to which is a literal change in one's mode of thinking.

Optimally, imho, psychedelics should be taken in large doses after one has hit a wall and hasn't overcome it for a very long time while legitimately trying; explosion at natural peak.

*EDIT: However, I'd argue that less psychoactive substances are wholly beneficial, if used in the right context. Hence my increasingly chronic use of THC, alcohol, harmala, and safrole-like derivatives. One must build up the wall before it can be torn down.
 

Pizzabeak

Banned
Local time
Today, 14:34
Joined
Jan 24, 2012
Messages
2,668
Might depend on the subject's rate of growth, if such a thing can be said to exist, which it probably can. They take some psychedelic, think they're enlightened, have another experience a few years later and realize how foolish they've been; etc

Some of em are lame, the more modest/mature ones are probably cooler. I don't know enough about LSD to say anything too insightful, but it seems unlikely the product was designed to induce actual enlightenment (whatever that means, I would suppose); why would the composition allow one to become zen buddha? There are various other substances, mushrooms, weed, but again they seem mostly to alter perception i.e, allow one to live life for a few hours not sober, i.e, not in the default mode we all mostly apparently come in. Why is the default sober mode what it is? Some would apparently argue that's sort of where we are most effective, make the 'best' judgments, basically if you're lucky you can take what you experienced from the duration of your body attempting to get rid of the foreign/toxic substance you inserted into your body and maybe use some of it during your most likely sober/default state. I mean.. They have medicine designed to temporarily cure "ADHD" that you can take if you have that I guess, you can even ingest alcohol or PCP ("super weed") and lump all those under the same category, some are just apparently more pleasant or fun than others (meth, heroin. those are more hardcore or extra, might as well just stick with thc or psilocybin periodically, arguably).

Mostly, what those will do is, given the "benefit" of experiencing, arguably, alternate brain chemistry, one will then question why things are the way they are, as noted earlier. Do they have to be? It's apparently simpler to keep them that way. They'll probably think there's more to life than what we've been lead to believe, whether that's a good idea or not. You think primarily one thing while sober, while intoxicated you're able to think other things, then go, "Oh..".

Um.. What's enlightenment? Is it a property of the universe? Why, then, are "humans" only, arguably, allowed to do so? Why not racoons? The dinosaurs died cause they didn't have a space program... According to that view humans are lucky enough to have been at the right place at the right time during those earlier years on Earth... Why couldn't it be the racoons or kangaroos that are asking these and other related questions right now? Was it just luck or was it something more destiny or predetermined related? If it's the latter then enlightenment is relatively reasonable I'd wager, well, even then whoever reaches that state was destined to in the first place under certain definitions of fate. If it's more free will related, if you reach that state you can officially claim to be better than everyone else. If it's some mixture of the two, you got a lucky roll of the die as you are fortunate enough to be experiencing that particular manifestation of life/reality (if it's generally agreed upon to be a good thing) and you put in hard work which is commendable. If there's fate/destiny, what do we make of all the poor crazy homeless people? It was their destiny to be frowned up and filthy all the time! They had no choice really, for a number of reasons. Poor them. Was it to remind us to continue to work hard and be lucky? It's all more or less due to the society, even if we had a different type of society there might still be outcasts of the sort? So was it our destiny as a whole to go through this stage of development in which hopefully it would take hard work and cooperation to get through? No one seems to enjoy relying on others though.. Seems kind of elaborate. The simplest thing might be luck, then we all die and stuff and the universe does whatever the hell the laws of physics may or may not predict; anything about the universe seems as if it'd be relevant, how would it not?
 

Brontosaurie

Banned
Local time
Today, 23:34
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
5,646
i think psychedelics have beneficial effects which can be likened to an enlightenment process. the elitist mentality surrounding it is repulsive but currently inevitable and probably just a contextually enhanced extreme charicature of human pettiness overall.
 

redbaron

irony based lifeform
Local time
Tomorrow, 08:34
Joined
Jun 10, 2012
Messages
7,029
Location
69S 69E
Have tried psychedelics.

Users who think they're becoming, 'enlightened' as a result, are really just less capable of or willing to engage in critical meta-cognition. I agree that the attitudes of regular users of hallucinogens do become quite comical. They frequently overlook flaws in their perception, and when people highlight them the standard response is that, 'no you're not seeing the big picture!'.

What they fail to realize is that other people do see the big picture the same as they do - they're just not given to wilful delusion. I suppose the common pattern is that they want to believe they're enlightened, and it feels good to do so. They really just set themselves up to constantly reinforce their own delusion, and they take that as their reality.

Something I've noticed as well, is that this behaviour is typically most prevalent among people who have suffered abuse in some form in the past. This delusion becomes their escape from being insignificant and useless. Delusion as well, knows no real boundaries. When you live in the world of delusion, you can't really ever be, 'wrong' - and so this delusion becomes a complex ego-saving construct.

If you ever end up watching the way people's cognitive abilities slowly degenerate over time as a result of drug-use, you'll see what I mean.

Or you could draw parallels between the behavioural patterns that people of fundamentalist faith exhibit, and their efforts to justify and continue their delusion. Two sides of the same coin, so to speak.
 

Cherry Cola

Banned
Local time
Today, 22:34
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
3,899
Location
stockholm
Psychedelics are useful for flushing out mental garbage and for showing you -in a very direct way- that the world is the way it is because your senses function the way they do and your brain is tuned the way it is.

A few micrograms and voila reality is another. It is something which is useful to remember, to have imprinted even.

People who do psychedelics are like Don Quijote-Super Saiyans thinking they are gonna train themselves so that their normal mode is the psychedelic equivalent of having yellow hair and super strenght, only reality isn't Dragon Ball so they end up retards instead, at best making for good study material in themselves for some third party by just being who they've become. Generally speaking. There are probably some cool folks out there who can handle more than most.

I think reading novels is a pretty good way of broadening one's views as well:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/brain-function-boosted-for-days-after-reading-a-novel-9028302.html

Especially in these days of tiny info snippets, articles and all that the internet has to offer.
 

Void

oblivious
Local time
Today, 23:34
Joined
Feb 5, 2013
Messages
100
Have tried psychedelics.

Users who think they're becoming, 'enlightened' as a result, are really just less capable of or willing to engage in critical meta-cognition. I agree that the attitudes of regular users of hallucinogens do become quite comical. They frequently overlook flaws in their perception, and when people highlight them the standard response is that, 'no you're not seeing the big picture!'.

What they fail to realize is that other people do see the big picture the same as they do - they're just not given to wilful delusion. I suppose the common pattern is that they want to believe they're enlightened, and it feels good to do so. They really just set themselves up to constantly reinforce their own delusion, and they take that as their reality.

Something I've noticed as well, is that this behaviour is typically most prevalent among people who have suffered abuse in some form in the past. This delusion becomes their escape from being insignificant and useless. Delusion as well, knows no real boundaries. When you live in the world of delusion, you can't really ever be, 'wrong' - and so this delusion becomes a complex ego-saving construct.

If you ever end up watching the way people's cognitive abilities slowly degenerate over time as a result of drug-use, you'll see what I mean.

Or you could draw parallels between the behavioural patterns that people of fundamentalist faith exhibit, and their efforts to justify and continue their delusion. Two sides of the same coin, so to speak.

I agree, but the term 'delusion' implies that there is something as the truth, right? I'd like you to tell me all about it since you know it apparently :).

I've been around an avid pot user, one who has stopped now, and in the end it did get rather bad yes.

Enlightenment means something along the lines of finding out what things are really about. I don't think anyone can ever know that for sure. These discussions are therefor inherently redundant IMO. But we're having a discussion about the discussion, so that's alright!
 
Local time
Today, 22:34
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
5,025
They frequently overlook flaws in their perception, and when people highlight them the standard response is that, 'no you're not seeing the big picture!'.

What they fail to realize is that other people do see the big picture the same as they do - they're just not given to wilful delusion.
So you're saying you perceive the same as I?

Unable and Unaware?
 

Goku

Banned
Local time
Today, 22:34
Joined
Dec 20, 2013
Messages
349
Enlightenment is subjective. I keep thinking of Dabrowski's theory of positive disintegration.

Intense trips might produce such a traumatic experience that it becomes the catalyst for mental disintegration. For example, like you mentioned previously (Higs) and in The Matrix, one might not believe reality is reality, and must re-integrate this newly found knowledge that reality is subjective based on mind chemicals.

Dabrowski also suggests one can re-integrate on a lower level. Let's say you do LSD once and then you go insane, instead of coming back to reality.

I also think that it depends on how people view these psychadellic experiences in the context of their own lives. Some people eventually have their lives revolve around using the drugs. I think that is unhealthy. On the other hand, you have those who use drugs to improve the quality of their life, outside of using drugs.

Actually, I've typed so much I don't even care to make a point anymore. If everything is subjective then there's no point to anything.
 

redbaron

irony based lifeform
Local time
Tomorrow, 08:34
Joined
Jun 10, 2012
Messages
7,029
Location
69S 69E
I agree, but the term 'delusion' implies that there is something as the truth, right?
If you want to define it as:

A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.

It doesn't necessarily imply it.

THD said:
So you're saying you perceive the same as I?
Strawman.
 

Cognisant

Prolific Member
Local time
Today, 10:34
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
8,525
Anyone that finds enlightenment enjoyable hasn't got a clue or is running away from it as fast as they can.

Enlightenment is knowing just how insignificant you, how nothing you will ever do will ever really meaning anything, that one day you're going to die and there is no afterlife because your sense of self was delusional to begin with.

Btw you're not supposed to know that, it's unnatural, unhealthy and if you dwell on it too much you'll kill yourself or go insane.

That's enlightenment.
 

Pizzabeak

Banned
Local time
Today, 14:34
Joined
Jan 24, 2012
Messages
2,668
Have tried psychedelics.

Users who think they're becoming, 'enlightened' as a result, are really just less capable of or willing to engage in critical meta-cognition. I agree that the attitudes of regular users of hallucinogens do become quite comical. They frequently overlook flaws in their perception, and when people highlight them the standard response is that, 'no you're not seeing the big picture!'.

What they fail to realize is that other people do see the big picture the same as they do - they're just not given to wilful delusion. I suppose the common pattern is that they want to believe they're enlightened, and it feels good to do so. They really just set themselves up to constantly reinforce their own delusion, and they take that as their reality.

Something I've noticed as well, is that this behaviour is typically most prevalent among people who have suffered abuse in some form in the past. This delusion becomes their escape from being insignificant and useless. Delusion as well, knows no real boundaries. When you live in the world of delusion, you can't really ever be, 'wrong' - and so this delusion becomes a complex ego-saving construct.

If you ever end up watching the way people's cognitive abilities slowly degenerate over time as a result of drug-use, you'll see what I mean.

Or you could draw parallels between the behavioural patterns that people of fundamentalist faith exhibit, and their efforts to justify and continue their delusion. Two sides of the same coin, so to speak.
Provide examples of a past suffering, and proof it was bad enough for such drastic action to be taken, and assurance the account was as traumatizing as you've apparently been led to believe, as well as it still affecting the party member in question til this day.
 

Cognisant

Prolific Member
Local time
Today, 10:34
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
8,525
Also forms A12, B38 and H16, in triplicate.
 

Brontosaurie

Banned
Local time
Today, 23:34
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
5,646
Anyone that finds enlightenment enjoyable hasn't got a clue or is running away from it as fast as they can.

Enlightenment is knowing just how insignificant you, how nothing you will ever do will ever really meaning anything, that one day you're going to die and there is no afterlife because your sense of self was delusional to begin with.

Btw you're not supposed to know that, it's unnatural, unhealthy and if you dwell on it too much you'll kill yourself or go insane.

That's enlightenment.
no, enlightenment is something healthy.
 

Cognisant

Prolific Member
Local time
Today, 10:34
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
8,525
Why?

Well sure what's healthy is healthy and if you define enlightenment by it being healthy then whatever is healthy must be enlightened, but if we're talking about existential truth, the answer to the question that is, simply, why?

Then that's the enlightenment I'm talking about.
 

Brontosaurie

Banned
Local time
Today, 23:34
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
5,646
Why?

Well sure what's healthy is healthy and if you define enlightenment by it being healthy then whatever is healthy must be enlightened, but if we're talking about existential truth, the answer to the question that is, simply, why?

Then that's the enlightenment I'm talking about.
hold on, i got you some why's first:

why would this existential truth be exactly the comprehension of our insignificance relative to the cosmos? who gauges significance if not we? and why would the kind of insight you mention be unpleasant, if even possible?

it appears to me that your idea of enlightenment is much like replacing information with noise. i struggle to trace its roots and assess its conceptual applicability.
 

Rook

Helder
Local time
Tomorrow, 00:34
Joined
Aug 14, 2013
Messages
1,951
Anyone that finds enlightenment enjoyable hasn't got a clue or is running away from it as fast as they can.

Enlightenment is knowing just how insignificant you, how nothing you will ever do will ever really meaning anything, that one day you're going to die and there is no afterlife because your sense of self was delusional to begin with.

Btw you're not supposed to know that, it's unnatural, unhealthy and if you dwell on it too much you'll kill yourself or go insane.

That's enlightenment.
A sad truth.

The search for "enlightenment" in the common sense is actually a process of fleeing or ignoring the true enlightenment of probable insignificance.

It is the construction of purpose where there is no purpose.
It is subjectivity in the face of an objective universe.
It is a pillow in a room of knives.
It is bliss in a sea of void.

Delude yourselves, for the truth maddens.
 

crippli

disturbed
Local time
Today, 23:34
Joined
Jan 15, 2008
Messages
1,667
Delude yourselves, for the truth maddens.
Agreed. I see immediate suicide as guaranteed if enlightenment was to be reached.

For the record. I did not take psychedelics. I suspect maybe once in the Mexican inland some Mexicans tricked me into doing cocaine. The party was very weird. And there was some strange stuff in my nose the day after. It took several days until I managed to orient my self reasonably. Weed doesn't work on me though. I once got annoyed when the others where high. So I rolled on with pure marijuana, while the others mixed it with tobacco. Same thing, no noticeable effect. So that was the last time I bothered with marijuana, about 5 years ago, doesn't taste good either. I am curious about psychedelic, sounds good on paper. But I'm not sure it's worth the bother. At intensive care. Each time they have had to use double dose to put me into coma. The normal dose only make me 'drunk and delirious'.
 

Brontosaurie

Banned
Local time
Today, 23:34
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
5,646
Agreed. I see immediate suicide as guaranteed if enlightenment was to be reached.

For the record. I did not take psychedelics. I suspect maybe once in the Mexican inland some Mexicans tricked me into doing cocaine. The party was very weird. And there was some strange stuff in my nose the day after. It took several days until I managed to orient my self reasonably. Weed doesn't work on me though. I once got annoyed when the others where high. So I rolled on with pure marijuana, while the others mixed it with tobacco. Same thing, no noticeable effect. So that was the last time I bothered with marijuana, about 5 years ago, doesn't taste good either. I am curious about psychedelic, sounds good on paper. But I'm not sure it's worth the bother. At intensive care. Each time they have had to use double dose to put me into coma. The normal dose only makes me 'drunk and delirious'.
I LOVE YOUR WRITING STYLE

btw psychedelics are completely different (experientially, if not functionally, near opposite) from the anti-psychotics and benzos and mood stabilizers you probably received at intensive care. and if you're schizophrenic, not advisable.
 

Blarraun

straightedgy
Local time
Today, 23:34
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
4,214
Location
someplace windswept
A sad truth.

The search for "enlightenment" in the common sense is actually a process of fleeing or ignoring the true enlightenment of probable insignificance.

It is the construction of purpose where there is no purpose.
It is subjectivity in the face of an objective universe.
It is a pillow in a room of knives.
It is bliss in a sea of void.

Delude yourselves, for the truth maddens.
You see, knowing all this and knowing the insignificance is not a sad thing or a thing that you should run away from.

The fact that you exist and that there are things you actually want to do is enough to prove that every bit of matter is important.

Insignificance or not is just your interpretation of the understanding you receive.

You can have the same impact controlling a square kilometer or the universe, just on a smaller or larger scale. This applies to most of wrongly attributed insignificance.
 

The Void

Banned
Local time
Today, 22:34
Joined
Dec 23, 2013
Messages
900
Location
In the Void
My mom broke the mouse because I was reading some Crowley stuff instead of going to bath. I couldnt access internet without mouse. I didnt know at that time how to enable the mouse keys.
So I was left with nothing and that is when I got determined to reach enlightenment. And so started my journey to enlightenment.

"Winners don't use drug" -far cry 3 blood dragon.
(well, the truth is I am just some little kid in the 3rd world who have no friends and not any access to drug and I am too apathetic too even try )

I used my mind.

I went deep inside my thoughts and kept on thinking in an organised way.

In the end atlast I reached enlightenment when in turn made me insane and thus I call it 'madlightenment'.

This is what I found out :-

My sense of self is an delusion.
Pretty much all is subjective delusions.
Something exists.
Nothing matters in the end. Nothing.
If there is a purpose the existence of the purpose itself is purposeless.
If there is a high and mighty conscious origin, it itself is an arbitary existence (coz it is teh first cause there is no reason for its existence, it is causeless, it exists because it exists)

Purpose or meaning is just a delusion of the mind.

It is all transient.

Significance insignificance, meaning, meaninglessness, all just made up concepts, nothing matters even that nothing matters does not matters.

If something matters the matter does not matter.

There are things that are unknowable. And no one can know that.
It will be like eating your own head. SO it doesnt matter.

All problems comes from over-attachment to the imaginary sense of distinct singular self.

Absolute Apathy is the ultimate solution.

Example:
so here is a guy is absolute apathetic. Let us name him Nameless.
Some one came and cut out his hand.

Nameless: ohh so much pain! Ahahagh my hand! but whatever who cares this body is gonna be decomposed soon anyway.

Someone plucked out Nameless' eyes.

Nameless; AHAGAGHAH my eyes!!, well whatever... I sleep most the time anyway.

Nameless ended up in a dark dungeon where he is tortured every second.

Nameless: whatever, so much pain, but I dont care, still.

Nameless' family got burned down.

Nameless: ok whatever, everyone is gonna die someday, doesnt matter.

Nameless gained infinite power through meditation, then lost it.

Nameless: whatever...who cares?

Nameless got insulted in terrible way.

Nameless: Yes ok right? Nice. whatever.



In this way with absolute apathy you can be absoluetly free from all sufferings and fear.
 

Blarraun

straightedgy
Local time
Today, 23:34
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
4,214
Location
someplace windswept
My mom broke the mouse because I was reading some Crowley stuff instead of going to bath. I couldnt access internet without mouse. I didnt know at that time how to enable the mouse keys.
So I was left with nothing and that is when I got determined to reach enlightenment. And so started my journey to enlightenment.

"Winners don't use drug" -far cry 3 blood dragon.
(well, the truth is I am just some little kid in the 3rd world who have no friends and not any access to drug and I am too apathetic too even try )

I used my mind.

I went deep inside my thoughts and kept on thinking in an organised way.

In the end atlast I reached enlightenment when in turn made me insane and thus I call it 'madlightenment'.

This is what I found out :-

My sense of self is an delusion.
Pretty much all is subjective delusions.
Something exists.
Nothing matters in the end. Nothing.
If there is a purpose the existence of the purpose itself is purposeless.
If there is a high and mighty conscious origin, it itself is an arbitary existence (coz it is teh first cause there is no reason for its existence, it is causeless, it exists because it exists)

Purpose or meaning is just a delusion of the mind.

It is all transient.

Significance insignificance, meaning, meaninglessness, all just made up concepts, nothing matters even that nothing matters does not matters.

If something matters the matter does not matter.

There are things that are unknowable. And no one can know that.
It will be like eating your own head. SO it doesnt matter.

All problems comes from over-attachment to the imaginary sense of distinct singular self.

Absolute Apathy is the ultimate solution.

Example:
so here is a guy is absolute apathetic. Let us name him Nameless.
Some one came and cut out his hand.

Nameless: ohh so much pain! Ahahagh my hand! but whatever who cares this body is gonna be decomposed soon anyway.

Someone plucked out Nameless' eyes.

Nameless; AHAGAGHAH my eyes!!, well whatever... I sleep most the time anyway.

Nameless ended up in a dark dungeon where he is tortured every second.

Nameless: whatever, so much pain, but I dont care, still.

Nameless' family got burned down.

Nameless: ok whatever, everyone is gonna die someday, doesnt matter.

Nameless gained infinite power through meditation, then lost it.

Nameless: whatever...who cares?

Nameless got insulted in terrible way.

Nameless: Yes ok right? Nice. whatever.



In this way with absolute apathy you can be absoluetly free from all sufferings and fear.
Nothing is as much of a made up concept as something. And yet, there is no true nothing and there is something.

What you say is worthless is your view and your belief, the same goes for opposite.

What is weird is that you still post the same things on this forum and you show the degree of this nothingness, so there is some purpose to this.

It seems as if you want to escape to the state of purposeful existence, good luck with it, you give every concept and thing their share of importance, just make some shiny things and chase them downhill.
 

Rook

Helder
Local time
Tomorrow, 00:34
Joined
Aug 14, 2013
Messages
1,951
You see, knowing all this and knowing the insignificance is not a sad thing or a thing that you should run away from.

The fact that you exist and that there are things you actually want to do is enough to prove that every bit of matter is important.

Insignificance or not is just your interpretation of the understanding you receive.

You can have the same impact controlling a square kilometer or the universe, just on a smaller or larger scale. This applies to most of wrongly attributed insignificance.
Not knowing the insignifigance is easier. Then you can easily justify your actions and your existence through religions, philosophies etc.

You talk of subjective purpose. It is not incorrect or correct to have such a purpose, merely paradoxal. Subjective purpose enables us to live with the burden of probale insignifigance. Having subjective purpose is vital to our survival , that is the sad part.

Objective purpose though, is something else.
The absolute truth is horrifying.
Thank all the gods we have not yet found it.
It will rip our minds assunder and damn us to eternal rambling.
 

The Void

Banned
Local time
Today, 22:34
Joined
Dec 23, 2013
Messages
900
Location
In the Void
Not knowing the insignifigance is easier. Then you can easily justify your actions and your existence through religions, philosophies etc.

You talk of subjective purpose. It is not incorrect or correct to have such a purpose, merely paradoxal. Subjective purpose enables us to live with the burden of probale insignifigance. Having subjective purpose is vital to our survival , that is the sad part.

Objective purpose though, is something else.
The absolute truth is horrifying.
Thank all the gods we have not yet found it.
It will rip our minds assunder and damn us to eternal rambling.
How can you say that without knowing it yourself?
 

Blarraun

straightedgy
Local time
Today, 23:34
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
4,214
Location
someplace windswept
Not knowing the insignifigance is easier. Then you can easily justify your actions and your existence through religions, philosophies etc.

You talk of subjective purpose. It is not incorrect or correct to have such a purpose, merely paradoxal. Subjective purpose enables us to live with the burden of probale insignifigance. Having subjective purpose is vital to our survival , that is the sad part.

Objective purpose though, is something else.
The absolute truth is horrifying.
Thank all the gods we have not yet found it.
It will rip our minds assunder and damn us to eternal rambling.
I don't agree with some of the things. If there is a being that happens to know everything, it can select to unlearn and experience things again. Or create another oblivious being to start again. This being can also destroy itself but it's unimportant and you don't really know if it is horrible from its perspective.

The more you know the more possible it is for you to create a broader and more interesting subjective purpose, because you actually learn what your want or like.

Self deceiving in day to day life is good as long as you know you are deceiving yourself and it doesn't hinder you.

How would you like to posess an objective motivation without being and knowing everything. Long way to go and really it is a journey that matters and not the end of it.
 

The Void

Banned
Local time
Today, 22:34
Joined
Dec 23, 2013
Messages
900
Location
In the Void
Nothing is as much of a made up concept as something. And yet, there is no true nothing and there is something.

What you say is worthless is your view and your belief, the same goes for opposite.

What is weird is that you still post the same things on this forum and you show the degree of this nothingness, so there is some purpose to this.

It seems as if you want to escape to the state of purposeful existence, good luck with it, you give every concept and thing their share of importance, just make some shiny things and chase them downhill.
I post because I post because I cant do nothing.
What I write gets paradoxical sometimes but there is not much other way to explain it that I can think of.
There is nothing. Nothing is everywhere with something.
There is no purpose to what I do also no no-purpose. But you can give it a purpose or no purpose.
You can make something important something useless.
We make stories to move to progress to de-progress or whatever.

Purposelessness made me free, and I do whatever I am propelled to do by my mind :D
And with apathy I can be free from suffering, if I fail to do something. :D

You can say I am more of a Taoist.
 

Puffy

Aquila
Local time
Today, 22:34
Joined
Nov 7, 2009
Messages
2,843
Location
Hanaqpacha
I think Rook and Cognisant's ideas on 'existential' enlightenment basically derive from Whitehead's bifurcation of nature, i.e. the problem of apparent separation between self and matter. The dominant paradigm of our culture is of subjects isolated from surroundings that basically comprise of stagnant, dead matter; the existential crisis naturally follows from this paradigm. If at any point our view on matter were to change, or Whitehead's bifurcation were resolved, this idea of enlightenment would probably change as well.

Ironically to this discussion, my friends who use psychedelics (I haven't had the pleasure) are those who typically talk about the kind of universe this implies, i.e. non-locally interconnected, holistic, etc. :D

Also, people seem to be sweeping psychedelics under one branch term. I'm of the impression that they're phenomenologically different? If acid, I read a book once on its initial use in psychoanalysis and wouldn't be surprised if good quality acid could be used for self-exploration in a safe environment.
 

The Void

Banned
Local time
Today, 22:34
Joined
Dec 23, 2013
Messages
900
Location
In the Void

Blarraun

straightedgy
Local time
Today, 23:34
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
4,214
Location
someplace windswept
I post because I post because I cant do nothing.
What I write gets paradoxical sometimes but there is not much other way to explain it that I can think of.
There is nothing. Nothing is everywhere with something.
There is no purpose to what I do also no no-purpose. But you can give it a purpose or no purpose.
You can make something important something useless.
We make stories to move to progress to de-progress or whatever.

Purposelessness made me free, and I do whatever I am propelled to do by my mind :D
And with apathy I can be free from suffering, if I fail to do something. :D

You can say I am more of a Taoist.
It is not that bad if you think about it. If you actually find something for your mind, you follow it and freely enjoy. That's what everyone should be able to do imo, instead of conjuring alien beliefs and imposing things on others. To choose to follow what they want and be able to do it in the end.

Suffering can be self induced or body induced, if it's body induced it is more difficult to deal with initially.
 

Brontosaurie

Banned
Local time
Today, 23:34
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
5,646
Also, people seem to be sweeping psychedelics under one branch term. I'm of the impression that they're phenomenologically different? If acid, I read a book once on its initial use in psychoanalysis and wouldn't be surprised if good quality acid could be used for self-exploration in a safe environment.
nah they're basically the same (i've used perhaps 10-15 different ones including acid, shrooms, mescaline). lots of connaisseur talk on e.g. bluelight masking the overwhelming similarities.

there's one very particular psychedelic and that's DiPT. it interferes almost exclusively with auditory perception in an extreme and enjoyable, almost comical fashion.
 

Blarraun

straightedgy
Local time
Today, 23:34
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
4,214
Location
someplace windswept
nah they're basically the same (i've used perhaps 10-15 different ones including acid, shrooms, mescaline). lots of connaisseur talk on e.g. bluelight masking the overwhelming similarities.

there's one very particular psychedelic and that's DiPT. it interferes almost exclusively with auditory perception in an extreme and enjoyable, almost comical fashion.
Are there some good descriptions of what happens after use? I don't want to use them as of now, but I am interested in what kind of cognitive shift are we talking about.

I read some unsupported article about becoming a chair...
 

The Void

Banned
Local time
Today, 22:34
Joined
Dec 23, 2013
Messages
900
Location
In the Void
It is not that bad if you think about it. If you actually find something for your mind, you follow it and freely enjoy. That's what everyone should be able to do imo, instead of conjuring false beliefs and imposing things on others. To choose to follow what they want and be able to do it in the end.

Suffering can be self induced or body induced, if it's body induced it is more difficult to deal with initially.
Yes I never said it is that bad.
I find it more freeing and enjoyable.
I agree with you. We can make up anything and follow anything and freely enjoy it without forcibly imposing far fetched beliefs on ourselves and others.
Combating self induced suffering can be difficult to depending on the mental condition of the one suffering.

Well if I now go and eat meat, I dont need any reason, I ate it because I wanted to, not any more reason is not needed. It is same for life. Resaon is unnesseary.

Animals other than humans are living too without pondering for reason.

Human mind is a meaning addict. It needs a meaning for everything and when it cant make sense it creates a false story or accepts some other's story and mish mash with it's own.

Meaninglessness can be depressing for some meaning addicted mind, but dont really understand how purposelessness is depressing or madenning.

It only gives me more sense of freedom.

If there is no reason to enjoy because of reasonlessness there is also no reason to suffer.
 

Brontosaurie

Banned
Local time
Today, 23:34
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
5,646
Are there some good descriptions of what happens after use? I don't want to use them as of now, but I am interested in what kind of cognitive shift are we talking about.

I read some unsupported article about becoming a chair...
usually i'm just a bit serene afterwards (trip mates reporting the same). but my first trip (acid) left me with closed-eye visuals (kaleidoscopic patterns) for a few days, and a later trip on HBW seeds left me with some kind of flashes of empathy toward select people. dazzling experiences. hard to explain. like being inside their heads.

for the most part, tripping does not fundamentally re-wire your neural pathways. rather, as THD says, it's merely a condensed form of experience. then there are cases where a breakdown ensues for some reason.

psychedelics can bring you closer to yourself and reality, or facilitate neurotic escapism. hard to tell in advance. in general i think a thoughtful, patient nature indicates compatibility with them.
 

Blarraun

straightedgy
Local time
Today, 23:34
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
4,214
Location
someplace windswept
usually i'm just a bit serene afterwards (trip mates reporting the same). but my first trip (acid) left me with closed-eye visuals (kaleidoscopic patterns) for a few days. a later trip on HBW seeds left me with some kind of flashes of empathy toward select people. dazzling experiences. hard to explain. like being inside their heads.

for the most part, tripping does not fundamentally re-wire your neural pathways. rather, as THD says, it's merely a condensed form of experience. then there are cases where a breakdown ensues for some reason.

psychedelics can bring you closer to yourself and reality, or it can facilitate neurotic escapism. hard to tell in advance. in general i think a thoughtful, patient nature indicates compatibility with them.
I see, so what you both meant was that we tend to explore things in a similar way but with less momentum? If that is the case then it is interesting and may be good for some that could benefit from this experience. Basically it isn't anything that my imagination cannot handle on its own.

If you want to get closer to reality others or yourself it requires work anyway, as most things.
 

The Void

Banned
Local time
Today, 22:34
Joined
Dec 23, 2013
Messages
900
Location
In the Void
I think Rook and Cognisant's ideas on 'existential' enlightenment basically derive from Whitehead's bifurcation of nature, i.e. the problem of apparent separation between self and matter. The dominant paradigm of our culture is of subjects isolated from surroundings that basically comprise of stagnant, dead matter; the existential crisis naturally follows from this paradigm. If at any point our view on matter were to change, or Whitehead's bifurcation were resolved, this idea of enlightenment would probably change as well.

Ironically to this discussion, my friends who use psychedelics (I haven't had the pleasure) are those who typically talk about the kind of universe this implies, i.e. non-locally interconnected, holistic, etc. :D

Also, people seem to be sweeping psychedelics under one branch term. I'm of the impression that they're phenomenologically different? If acid, I read a book once on its initial use in psychoanalysis and wouldn't be surprised if good quality acid could be used for self-exploration in a safe environment.
“Alphonse Elric: Say, Brother, have you found the answer to "One is all, all is one"? I've been thinking about it all this time, but I only have a vague idea about it.
Edward Elric: I'm not sure about this, but remember when I was weak from hunger, and ate those ants?
Alphonse Elric: You did?
Edward Elric: Mm-hmm, I ate them, They were sour as hell, too. But then, I thought, if I didn't eat them, and died, I'd be eaten by ants, or the foxes. I'd go back to the earth, and become grass. The rabbits would eat that.
Alphonse Elric: The food chain, right?
Edward Elric: Yeah. And it's not just that. Long ago, this whole island may have been at the bottom of the sea. In tens of thousands of years, it might be the peak of a mountain.
Alphonse Elric: All things are connected?
Edward Elric: Everything is in the middle of a great, unseen flow. I don't know if you'd call it the universe, or the world, or whatever. Looking at it as this huge thing. Al, you and I are like ants. One small part within the flow. Nothing more than on fraction of the whole. But putting all those small "ones" together allows the "all" to exist...” -FMA Brotherhood.
 

Brontosaurie

Banned
Local time
Today, 23:34
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
5,646
I see, so what you both meant was that we tend to explore things in a similar way but with less momentum? If that is the case then it is interesting and may be good for some that could benefit from this experience. Basically it isn't anything that my imagination cannot handle on its own.

If you want to get closer to reality others or yourself it requires work anyway, as most things.
we tend to explore things similarly, but what is normally delegated to (or more correctly, limited to) the subconscious may spill into awareness during a psychedelic experience. there is (to my knowledge) no way of speculatively deriving these states of mind from ordinary experience, yet they result from an increased density of stimuli (an attenuation of the thalamus filter, is one hypothesis) - which affects processing in numerous, complex ways.

i do not claim to be up-to-date with scientific research.
 

Puffy

Aquila
Local time
Today, 22:34
Joined
Nov 7, 2009
Messages
2,843
Location
Hanaqpacha
“Alphonse Elric: Say, Brother, have you found the answer to "One is all, all is one"? I've been thinking about it all this time, but I only have a vague idea about it.
Edward Elric: I'm not sure about this, but remember when I was weak from hunger, and ate those ants?
Alphonse Elric: You did?
Edward Elric: Mm-hmm, I ate them, They were sour as hell, too. But then, I thought, if I didn't eat them, and died, I'd be eaten by ants, or the foxes. I'd go back to the earth, and become grass. The rabbits would eat that.
Alphonse Elric: The food chain, right?
Edward Elric: Yeah. And it's not just that. Long ago, this whole island may have been at the bottom of the sea. In tens of thousands of years, it might be the peak of a mountain.
Alphonse Elric: All things are connected?
Edward Elric: Everything is in the middle of a great, unseen flow. I don't know if you'd call it the universe, or the world, or whatever. Looking at it as this huge thing. Al, you and I are like ants. One small part within the flow. Nothing more than on fraction of the whole. But putting all those small "ones" together allows the "all" to exist...” -FMA Brotherhood.
Never got around to finishing the show but (y) nonetheless. :p
 
Local time
Today, 22:34
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
5,025
Strawman.
Not at all:
Users who think they're becoming, 'enlightened' as a result, are really just less capable of or willing to engage in critical meta-cognition.

They frequently overlook flaws in their perception, and when people highlight them the standard response is that, 'no you're not seeing the big picture!'.

What they fail to realize is that other people do see the big picture the same as they do

- they're just not given to wilful delusion.

I suppose the common pattern is that they want to believe they're enlightened, and it feels good to do so.

They really just set themselves up to constantly reinforce their own delusion, and they take that as their reality.

this behaviour is typically most prevalent among people who have suffered abuse in some form in the past.

This delusion becomes their escape from being insignificant and useless.

Delusion as well, knows no real boundaries.

When you live in the world of delusion, you can't really ever be, 'wrong'

this delusion becomes a complex ego-saving construct.
These statements are made from an apparent position of strength, and are predicated on knowing and experiencing what you criticize, due to their subjective nature. Yet all of this, every statement, is speculative; judgments of other people's thoughts, perceptions, meta-cognitive capacities, feelings, and behaviors. But you state them as if they're universally true (?), as fact.

I made the comparison to myself because I can conceive of and experience these things. I am schizoaffective. This is known to this community. I routinely (and increasingly) experience mild hallucinations, delusions and manifestations of formal thought disorders, including thought blocking, clanging, echolalia, schizophasia, neologism, paraphasia, and stilted speech.

Delusion is also interesting in that it's independent of cognition. Problems occur only when one's perception is unfiltered, which is a condition independent of conviction of belief. This is demonstrated by double bookkeeping.

So to depersonalize it, how is your experience of reality sufficiently similar to that of Schizo-Street-Jesus to the point where you can objectively falsify their experience?

Is the apparent belief in your ability to do so not a cunningly accurate example of the Dunning-Kreuger Effect?
If you ever end up watching the way people's cognitive abilities slowly degenerate over time as a result of drug-use, you'll see what I mean.
There may also be causality issues with the/your conventional idea of drug use inducing long term psychosis. Not all drugs are equal, and the boundaries that define them as such are entirely arbitrary. A nice case study locus is the association between cannabis and psychosis.

Medical Definition of "Psychosis" : a serious mental disorder (as schizophrenia) characterized by defective or lost contact with reality often with hallucinations or delusions.

http://www.ukcia.org/research/SchizotypyPrecedesCannabisUse.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20471224

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20565524

http://www.ukcia.org/research/keele_study/Assessing-the-impact-of-cannabis.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17379482

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15820332

http://ukcia.org/research/TestingHypotheses.pdf
 

higs

Omg wow imo
Local time
Today, 22:34
Joined
Apr 3, 2012
Messages
1,998
Location
Armchair
Basically every answer given has been interesting and worth me reading. Special thanks to Brontosaurie, Puffy, Habitadoctor and Red Baron so far. Food for thought.

@The Void You sound like the Brahmans, I find Hindu metaphysics fascinating and in Many ways very close to my own world view (so impressive how early they arrived at these conclusions compared to Our spiritually dogmatic western society) but I would never pursue this "absolute inaction" they prone. I agree that suffering comes from ones desires, and one should not become a slave to these, but Relinquishing all desire and action for this "absolute stillness" may as well be death, and that's going to come to me anyway whether I like it or not. I think the passion that you can give to yourself for something (love of knowledge, or for a person, whatever), even if it is ultimately "absurd" in the large scheme of things can absorb your entire attention and make things worth it. Sure suffering comes back at some point, but I can live with that, because I know it isn't permanent and the good parts are worth it. In short, meaning and importance is given subjectively...And personally I am extremely good at being happy, it may seem terribly simplistic and a bit cheesy and perhaps I'll find I'm wrong but discovering new things, getting drunk and watching Wallace and gromit with friends...Occasional drug use...And sex and stuff...You know, Healthy doses of hedonism and action on your surroundings and new experiences are an excellent counterbalance to the existential crisis induced by intense introspection. Apathy makes me terribly unhappy because it is the decision to give no meaning to anything and therefore renders everything...MEANINGLESS (tadaaa), so you end up sitting around contemplating the absurd. Blargh :storks:

Will certainly trip again, I'm not done experimenting with it, even if it does make me horribly depressed for a bit, too fucking interesting and I think I've faced the worst part of "realizing the meaninglessness of existence".

EDIT: The lack of Christmas spirit on this forum is silly. Merry Christmas and a happy new year INTPf .
 

Goku

Banned
Local time
Today, 22:34
Joined
Dec 20, 2013
Messages
349
if ignorance is (universally accepted as) bliss,
then it necessarily follows that knowledge equals pain,
it is painful to realize that we know nothing,
yet, to re-integrate this knowledge with oneself can be referred to enlightenment,

finding out that Santa Clause is fictional was painful,
re-integrating that knowledge with reality enlightens me

Enlightenment is also not this grand concept that it has evolved to be,
Some make "enlightenment" out to be like heaven,
this mythical place we will reach once steps x, y, and z have been taken...

enlightenment is not like heaven,
I'm speaking like I know,
but I do not

I am just being practical
and now I will stop,
because nothing I type has any meaning
 

Puffy

Aquila
Local time
Today, 22:34
Joined
Nov 7, 2009
Messages
2,843
Location
Hanaqpacha
nah they're basically the same (i've used perhaps 10-15 different ones including acid, shrooms, mescaline). lots of connaisseur talk on e.g. bluelight masking the overwhelming similarities.

there's one very particular psychedelic and that's DiPT. it interferes almost exclusively with auditory perception in an extreme and enjoyable, almost comical fashion.
Sure, I don't really know so I'm content to take your word for it to an extent.

When I read LSD literature, I hear a lot of talk about becoming aware of your 'reality tunnel', or the underlying personal motivations which cause you to construct reality as you do. This seems to lead to what Higs just called "realising the meaninglessness of existence" because you're basically being exposed to the idea that reality is completely plural and relative, depending on personal psychological factors. The book I read on its use in psychoanalysis seemed to imply that apparent "transpersonal" experiences that seem to be beyond your own personal psychology only come with a lot of experience with the substance.

If you read DMT literature, what is being discussed sounds like a very different phenomenology to me. There is talk rather of gnosis, of transcending personal psychology and reaching some Other that underlies reality. Most seem to discuss encountering entities that feel alive and other than them, being transported into other dimensions, etc. Where LSD feels hallucinatory, DMT is described as feeling real, like it's actually happening. Whether it's purely the result of brain-chemistry or not, they come across as different enough to make me curious about how the specific substance affects the experience and what you get from it.
 

crippli

disturbed
Local time
Today, 23:34
Joined
Jan 15, 2008
Messages
1,667
btw psychedelics are completely different (experientially, if not functionally, near opposite) from the anti-psychotics and benzos and mood stabilizers you probably received at intensive care. and if you're schizophrenic, not advisable.
Oh no. Non of that stuff. It was due to violence(not on my part). There was a period I had problems with other people getting angry with me. So the induced comas was to operate and fix stuff up again. My body was amazing at healing itself, with a bit of external help, so today there are no marks from that period. I am quite sure I don't have schizophrenia.


I don't feel any need or believe psychedelics will bring much new on the table from what alcohol does. Alcohol removes perseverance. And makes a more intuitive and impulsive experience of situations. The downside is the occasional psychoses.

But I am curious what psychedelics would do to me. I suspect I'm mostly normal. Occasionally the scitzho traits, and occasionally the autistic traits, as all have. So psychedelics should be fine. If we take THD here, I don't think I am nowhere near that level. A bit on the eccentric side, on occasion.

I've tried to find out why weed seems to be ineffective. The same with caffeine. Coffee is completely wasted on me. Haven't been able to find out why. Maybe it's introversion. Resistance to external influence, as substances are.
 

higs

Omg wow imo
Local time
Today, 22:34
Joined
Apr 3, 2012
Messages
1,998
Location
Armchair
Sure, I don't really know so I'm content to take your word for it to an extent.

When I read LSD literature, I hear a lot of talk about becoming aware of your 'reality tunnel', or the underlying personal motivations which cause you to construct reality as you do. This seems to lead to what Higs just called "realising the meaninglessness of existence" because you're basically being exposed to the idea that reality is completely plural and relative, depending on personal psychological factors. The book I read on its use in psychoanalysis seemed to imply that apparent "transpersonal" experiences that seem to be beyond your own personal psychology only come with a lot of experience with the substance.

If you read DMT literature, what is being discussed sounds like a very different phenomenology to me. There is talk rather of gnosis, of transcending personal psychology and reaching some Other that underlies reality. Most seem to discuss encountering entities that feel alive and other than them, being transported into other dimensions, etc. Where LSD feels hallucinatory, DMT is described as feeling real, like it's actually happening. Whether it's purely the result of brain-chemistry or not, they come across as different enough to make me curious about how the specific substance affects the experience and what you get from it.

Would that not be the difference between a hallucinogen and a deliriant? With LSD you're always aware of the fact that your reality is deformed, so you're only "half mad", if the drug makes you think the trip is reality then you could say that it makes you completely mad. sHould probably have researched dmt before posting this but too lazy and hungover right now. Would love to understand all this on a neurological level, hopefully science will explain the brain well enough before I die.
 

Brontosaurie

Banned
Local time
Today, 23:34
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
5,646
Oh no. Non of that stuff. It was due to violence(not on my part). There was a period I had problems with other people getting angry with me. So the induced comas was to operate and fix stuff up again. My body was amazing at healing itself, with a bit of external help, so today there are no marks from that period. I am quite sure I don't have schizophrenia.


I don't feel any need or believe psychedelics will bring much new on the table from what alcohol does. Alcohol removes perseverance. And makes a more intuitive and impulsive experience of situations. The downside is the occasional psychoses.

But I am curious what psychedelics would do to me. I suspect I'm mostly normal. Occasionally the scitzho traits, and occasionally the autistic traits, as all have. So psychedelics should be fine. If we take THD here, I don't think I am nowhere near that level. A bit on the eccentric side, on occasion.

I've tried to find out why weed seems to be ineffective. The same with caffeine. Coffee is completely wasted on me. Haven't been able to find out why. Maybe it's introversion. Resistance to external influence, as substances are.
i'm sorry to hear. i was under the impression that you suffer from schizophrenia. must have misread something.
 

Absurdity

Prolific Member
Local time
Today, 14:34
Joined
Jul 22, 2012
Messages
2,359
I think there's something painfully myopic about the belief that one can uncover the mysteries of the universe by retreating within one's self, with or without drugs.

Hallucinogens are fun, like parlor tricks, but not earth-shattering paradigm shifters in my experience.
 

TimeAsylums

Prolific Member
Local time
Today, 15:34
Joined
May 9, 2013
Messages
3,127
I think there's something painfully myopic about the belief that one can uncover the mysteries of the universe by retreating within one's self, with or without drugs.

wait, what?

I don't want to misconstrue your words, so please extrapolate. As it appears right now it seems to suggest that looking inside is bad regardless of the method?
 

Absurdity

Prolific Member
Local time
Today, 14:34
Joined
Jul 22, 2012
Messages
2,359
wait, what?

I don't want to misconstrue your words, so please extrapolate. As it appears right now it seems to suggest that looking inside is bad regardless of the method?
Hm, not what I meant to say. Looking inwards isn't "bad" if you're looking to learn more about yourself, but I'm skeptical about how much you can learn about the world from looking within.

Now that I think about it more though, there might be some point at which delving deep enough inside lands you somewhere genuinely outside... Or maybe I'm just tripping balls, man.
 

Puffy

Aquila
Local time
Today, 22:34
Joined
Nov 7, 2009
Messages
2,843
Location
Hanaqpacha
Hm, not what I meant to say. Looking inwards isn't "bad" if you're looking to learn more about yourself, but I'm skeptical about how much you can learn about the world from looking within.

Now that I think about it more though, there might be some point at which delving deep enough inside lands you somewhere genuinely outside... Or maybe I'm just tripping balls, man.
If one learns about the nature of reality through contact with something other (God?) that illuminates the situation, is it not possible that a psychoactive drug could facilitate that contact? (I.e., Is there any reason why a spiritual revelation occurring while sober should hold any more value than one under the influence of a psychoactive drug?)

Jung is probably the most prominent theistic thinker I can think of who believed that contact with God comes from delving deeper into the self.

@Higs -- that could be the case, but I think deliriants are a class of psychadelic drugs either way?
 
Top Bottom