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Self-awareness and ignorance

Rebis

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Would you forfeit control and analysis for a reduction in self-awareness?

If you can't imagine ignorance is bliss, maybe it's a product of having no imagination stemming from self-awareness.

To be an animal, not questioning it's existence or one that's consumed by analysis?
 

Marbles

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Yes, please. Replace my monkey mind with a monkey's mind.

I think our biggest problem is that we have engineered a habitat we were not designed for, though. We're doomed to be miserable until evolution catches up, so let's fire up CRISPR.
 

EndogenousRebel

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Obviously there is an evolutionary advantage to self-awareness, as it's the basis of improvement and our search for truth. I know I'm not on any frontier of truth, but a being that has no self-awareness would be akin to a predictable insect or reptile. I feel like I would be a burden or an easy target, only really useful in things concerning manual labor and simple tasks of which I would have to be trained in.

We really have only focused on studying the human brain for last couple of hundred years, we are barely now looking at other animals and seeing that there is a lot to learn. Dogos, apes and birds have shown some capacity for self awareness, and they are all capable of learning language, so I would think that this is another thing that would be traded off.
 

Marbles

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I think almost all organisms have a level of self awareness. Quantitative, not qualitative difference. We humans just like to be special. As the bible says, it's a gift and a burden, consciousness.
 

Black Rose

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To be an animal, not questioning it's existence or one that's consumed by analysis?

Ke$ha Take it off - With lyrics
 

Marbles

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The world has gone off its hinges. I'm quoting the bible, and AK is posting lewd music. Awesome song, AK. Lets do it like they do on the discovery channel (which makes no sense, I guess animal planet woukd mess up the rythm).
 

Forensic1999

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Would you forfeit control and analysis for a reduction in self-awareness?

If you can't imagine ignorance is bliss, maybe it's a product of having no imagination stemming from self-awareness.

To be an animal, not questioning it's existence or one that's consumed by analysis?

For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief.
 

peoplesuck

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There is a pill that gives you instant nearly instant brain damage and permanent parkinsons, If anyone wants to go that way. I wouldn't want to lose my awareness, thats what allows me to know I exist wtf?
 

Forensic1999

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Essentially I would not give up my consciousness if it meant I would be an animal.
 

Marbles

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So... Nine Inch nails. I've heard they're what Jesus was crucified with, but the album "with teeth" implies they are in fact fingernails. What do you reckon? I bet Reznor had an original meaning, but then figured it might as well mean something else, too, and just went with it.
 

Rebis

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I like this song but it's always reminded me of a nerdy metal head trying to sway a girl that he's indeed, the sex machine. I imagine the same guy having the song in a conspicious playlist on spotify called "Sex" just so the girls know that indeed, yes, he has the sex.

Text messages:
Girl: "What are you into?"
Guy: "rough BDSM handcuff sex, have you ever heard NIN "I want to fuck you like an animal?"

IRL:
Heavy weezing

I do love the song though.
 

Marbles

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I like this song but it's always reminded me of a nerdy metal head trying to sway a girl that he's indeed, the sex machine. I imagine the same guy having the song in a conspicious playlist on spotify called "Sex" just so the girls know that indeed, yes, he has the sex.

Text messages:
Girl: "What are you into?"
Guy: "rough BDSM handcuff sex, have you ever heard NIN "I want to fuck you like an animal?"

IRL:
Heavy weezing

I do love the song though.
Lmao... I think I know that guy.
 

Inexorable Username

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Would you forfeit control and analysis for a reduction in self-awareness?

If you can't imagine ignorance is bliss, maybe it's a product of having no imagination stemming from self-awareness.

To be an animal, not questioning it's existence or one that's consumed by analysis?

No. There’s no reason to believe that animals, too, don’t wonder at the world and wish they knew the truth. They have dreams. For all we know, they also have philosophy. It may be, though, that due to their physical makeup they are unable to express and exchange abstract thoughts.
Wouldn’t it be sad to wonder in silence?

Aside from that, I don’t think that a person, having experienced the sensation of a higher order of thinking and objective freedom and will, could honestly say that they would be okay with losing that power. I think you could open the doors to the garden of eden, and humans would still choose the apple, because that is the nature of having tasted the fruit to begin with.

I think it’s a deep seeded quality of the human species that we simply can’t help our thirst for knowledge. It’s what makes us simultaneously a beautiful and destructive animal.

The philosophical notion of the agony of awareness, the danger of curiosity, and the human greed for achievement dates back as far as we can measure...unless I’m much mistaken. Right? Eve and the apple, pandora and the jar (why is it always women?! Lol)

No, I couldn’t imagine trading it in. The idea terrifies me. What would it be like to be a tiger? Would I even have a sense of my own identity? The only thing more frightening than becoming a tiger would be to be born a normal tiger, and then be struck with the sudden awareness and mental capacity/understanding of a human....while still being trapped in the body of a tiger. Wow, that would suck.

I think, at the end of the day...the bliss of ignorance isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. Happiness is relative. You can’t be a #10 all of the time. The most you can hope for is a consistent 5.
As a non-ignorant person, I would rather be at a 4, but feel the hope, and ambition, and responsibility driving me to achieve the coveted “10”, then be at a consistent 5 and feel vaguely peaceful.
 

Forensic1999

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I can't help but despise being trapped in a physical body. It's so debilitating, restraining, and humiliating. But I always think it would be a hell of a lot worse being paralyzed and deaf.
Who knows if lack of consciousness =bliss. I'd guess you wouldn't have the understanding to care about anything other than instinct. But at the same time you'd be unaware that you lacked anything, which sounds personally scary.
I've always been deeply interested in the subject of consciousness/dreams. I feel like they point to something extraordinary.

The world is deeply torn.
 

EndogenousRebel

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Would you forfeit control and analysis for a reduction in self-awareness?

If you can't imagine ignorance is bliss, maybe it's a product of having no imagination stemming from self-awareness.

To be an animal, not questioning it's existence or one that's consumed by analysis?

Aside from that, I don’t think that a person, having experienced the sensation of a higher order of thinking and objective freedom and will, could honestly say that they would be okay with losing that power. I think you could open the doors to the garden of eden, and humans would still choose the apple, because that is the nature of having tasted the fruit to begin with.

I think people that do want to have their cake and eat it too. Nothing is wrong with that, it's just that they want freedom from a few setbacks of sentience. I lacked a lot of awareness of my environment, compartmentalizing it until one day that bubble popped and I was met with a lot of dread. I still find a lot of things surreal, such as seeing someone from school out and about in the real world by coincidence. "Wow we actually all live in this world!" This being said I do feel like I'm better off than when my bubble hadn't burst, blissful ignorance simply isn't good by virtue.
 

Inexorable Username

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I still find a lot of things surreal, such as seeing someone from school out and about in the real world by coincidence. "Wow we actually all live in this world!"

Does that happen to you often? I've met two people who have a spooky amount of coincidences in their life. To the extent that even the most pigheaded of people (such as myself) when it comes to matters of spirituality/superstition, etc, have to start wondering. At a certain frequency, coincidence starts to seem like it should be a mathematical impossibility. I wouldn't know, I'm no mathematician, or philosopher!
 

EndogenousRebel

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Things like that used to happen but not anymore, I do experience other synchronous events from time to time though. It wasn't really what I was talking about though, I gave a bad example. Even if I had made plans with friends outside of school, when we would all get together wherever it was, I would have a very surreal experience. Probably my awareness expanding in some way is what it was.
 

Minuend

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I guess the definition of self awareness matters

Non-human animals are probably self aware in that they do recognize themselves as something and do recognize others as something else. To what degree they analyze their own behaviors to a complex degree is difficult to say and depends on the individual animal. Some animals are probably more intelligent and perceptive and emotionally and intellectually aware compared to their peers. How they analyze or understand death is tricky, though, and a fascinating topic. How does a cat understand the death of a mouse vs the death of another cat? I guess it depends on the individual experience, among other things.

Anyway, I think self awareness is totally fine if combined with feeling safe and being biased toward positive thinking. I don't think self awareness is the defining factor of contentedness or lack of. Self awareness is more a problem if combined with high neuroticism, insecurity, hostility etc.

So I'd take high degree of self awareness if it came with a high degree of feeling safe and positive attitude towards other people and life. Self awareness is not the factor I'd focus on if trying to increase life satisfaction.
 

moody

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o be an animal, not questioning it's existence or one that's consumed by analysis?

We're all animals. We just have a highly developed frontal cortex in which we can recognize ourselves versus others, but this is always to an extent. We are still effected by others in ways we do not comprehend. Part of our adaptive skills includes language, which shapes the way people thing about themselves and other things.

Use feral children as examples. They don't seem to have a sense of self, like we do, because they can't communicate with us. How do we know that, though? Dolphins can understand us way more than we can understand them, because we can't hear well enough to distinguish the noises they make. Yet, studies have discovered that they've recognized and understood up to 1,000 different human words (when in captivity). In that way, they're more intelligent that we are.
 

Rebis

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o be an animal, not questioning it's existence or one that's consumed by analysis?

We're all animals. We just have a highly developed frontal cortex in which we can recognize ourselves versus others, but this is always to an extent. We are still effected by others in ways we do not comprehend. Part of our adaptive skills includes language, which shapes the way people thing about themselves and other things.

Use feral children as examples. They don't seem to have a sense of self, like we do, because they can't communicate with us. How do we know that, though? Dolphins can understand us way more than we can understand them, because we can't hear well enough to distinguish the noises they make. Yet, studies have discovered that they've recognized and understood up to 1,000 different human words (when in captivity). In that way, they're more intelligent that we are.

I'm not saying we're above animals on a biological level, nor can animals not become adapted to certain linguistic stimulus for a pavlonian or syntactical understanding. Rather, the self-referential complexity of our language: We denote ourselves in a situation out of context, a lot of our language is idyllic while an animals language is pertaining to environmental stimulus, much like a feral child with an underdeveloped language. Animals are intelligent in different cognitive tasks to us, as we are to them. Chimpanzees have idetic memory in comparison because they only process environmental stimulus while we process linguistic and syntactical meaning. Processing complex language is longer than primitive vocal speech that's the cognitive trade off here.

You could say we can prove that to a degree given we write down words and icons with different symbolism which is communicated to another individual through description which isn't solely extracted from their immediate environment. If they've never seen a rainfall, I can describe the process in words combining images of "water","cliff" and "down". If language is not recorded it cannot be socially inherited by their progeny which reduces the complexity of communication, inferring their language is primitive.
 

EndogenousRebel

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I've always wondered how a child with an absurdly high IQ would function in place of the "typical" feral child. I mean being able to do calculus at age 5 IQ. China should get on that.

Language is a vehicle for understanding. Want to comprehend the world better? Expand your vocabulary. Context matters a lot, but you could simply build on that by learning adjacent words. Words can associate/convey complex ideas with just a few syllables. We split off from chimpanzees a mere 2 million years ago, and the biggest driver for that was likely the willingness to communicate with each other.

We have no idea how languages developed. Clicks used by certain African tribes seem so far removed from almost every language we have now, and make me wonder who had the genius idea to use their eating hole as more than just a weapon or intimidation, but a sophisticated tool for communication.

There are theories that imply language ability could be a form of synethisia, especially noticeable with non-native language learning. When paired with the fascinating field of epigenetics, it makes me think that we could teach animals languages in a couple generations, our own "slow" development being caused by just how fucking stupid we were/are.
 

Grayman

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It sounds like you are debating on whether you want to watch TV or sit in your thinking chair.... But judging on how you asked the question I think you should watch a little more TV and something really meaningless.
 

Rebis

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It sounds like you are debating on whether you want to watch TV or sit in your thinking chair.... But judging on how you asked the question I think you should watch a little more TV and something really meaningless.

Kind of, except self-awareness is not taken away by TV. It's more of a question whether you'd like to be a cog in the grand scheme of the universe or a self-aware sentient being in this modern world of communication. If you were the cog you wouldn't even ask this question, if you were the latter you can ponder the why of everything in existence. Like the concept of cruelty, is that present in beings that don't document history? What about eternal love?

I can't watch TV for the life of me, only a few shows get through to me. It'd be a big struggle to watch tv for a whole day, I'd have to be tied up or something.
 

Puffy

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I don't think I would give up self-awareness per se. It is possible when hyper-stimulated for self-awareness to become overly paralysing like you're saying. But utilised wisely and with love, it's a very healing gift to be able to be a witness to yourself that enables a lot of growth & transformation.
 

Inexorable Username

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It sounds like you are debating on whether you want to watch TV or sit in your thinking chair.... But judging on how you asked the question I think you should watch a little more TV and something really meaningless.

Kind of, except self-awareness is not taken away by TV. It's more of a question whether you'd like to be a cog in the grand scheme of the universe or a self-aware sentient being in this modern world of communication. If you were the cog you wouldn't even ask this question, if you were the latter you can ponder the why of everything in existence. Like the concept of cruelty, is that present in beings that don't document history? What about eternal love?

I can't watch TV for the life of me, only a few shows get through to me. It'd be a big struggle to watch tv for a whole day, I'd have to be tied up or something.

REALLY?! I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to shout at you with my text but I’m so excited. You’re the first person I’ve met (in a fashion) that struggles to watch TV. I always get flack for this.

I just can’t tune my brain into it. Every once in a while something might stick for a while. I liked Cobra Kai. But typically TV and movies drive me nuts. Makes it hard to live in the USA, as 20% of the conversation involves people from holleywood, and I don’t know their names or who they cheated on :/

I try. I have some now. I know Lady GaGa because she ruined a season of American Horror Story, which I used to sporadically tune into while my ex binge-watched it.
I know the chick with the shaved head that licked a hammer because there was a meme about her. Miley. She also looks identical to a male that was recently famous but turned into a laughing stock...anyways. This is why I suck at socializing with the public.
 

Rebis

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My flatmates sit on the sofa for multiple hours in the kitchen watching TV, HOW???? Game shows and soaps, my jolly.
 

Inexorable Username

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Rats appear to potentially be self-aware.
There is footage of a big cat grieving the death of her cub that I’ve come across before.
Prairie dogs have a very complex language including descriptors of clothing and colors, and crows most likely do too.

I have an opinion I think all of you will scoff at. I think a majority of the scientific knowledge we hold as “fact” is, indeed, fiction. I might make a thread about it.

Our concept of what self-awareness is and whether animals have it - theory based. Our concept of intelligence and communication and how we measure these things between humans and animals - theory based.
Our tendency to behold theory as truth? High.

Humans have fallen from grace a bit insofar as science is concerned. We live in a new era, likely wrought by technology, where we mistakenly believe that science is fact. It is a fact that we have self-awareness and animals do not. It is a fact that males evolved as providers. We’ve largely forgotten that these things are theories, not facts.

I also feel like arrogance is growing. Not only in the general populous, but in the scientific community. It’s not unusual to see scientists assuming conclusions without hesitation.

Science is the philosophy of observation which allows us to form theories that are not necessarily (and most likely not) true. Those theories help us to test and explore the world through a helpful paradigm which can eventually lead us to the rare discover of real, factual information. We’ve forgotten how imperfect science is.

I question our concepts of self-awareness. That philosophy was founded upon the notions that humans must have something that other animals do not, but we took for granted our ability to test for self-awareness in animals.
 

Inexorable Username

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My flatmates sit on the sofa for multiple hours in the kitchen watching TV, HOW???? Game shows and soaps, my jolly.

That’s obnoxious. I hate when people need Tvs to be on. It’s very distracting. I used to date a guy that HAD to fall asleep every single night to that really gruesome movie “There Will be Blood”. (I didn’t make healthy dating choices). Anyways, I think it traumatized me slightly. I can still hear that violin solo in my head sometimes.

I do put YouTube on though. There’s a lot I can learn from YouTube and it’s very fascinating. I’ll often play it when I clean, eat, walk the dogs, etc.

It’s perfect for me because I can choose videos that are 4-8 minutes long. Which is about right.
 

Inexorable Username

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I think you see the misguidance of scientific arrogance particularly well in the fields of evolutionary biology and in psychology.

Here’s a thought. Males evolved as providers and females as nurturers. Females also evolved to have permanent breasts and a hidden heat. We suspect from archaeology that humans hunted large game, and that potentially we ran animals to death with our long distance running abilities. If females were sitting in a cave “with the kids”, how did these males carry such large game back? Isn’t that quite an inconvenience and a disadvantage? Perhaps females developed permanent breasts so that we could co-nurse the young. By holding and nursing the young of others, a mother is free to use her arms to forage and feed. Our heat is frequent (women may even ovulate more than once a month), so what is the point of a heat cycle?
Permanent breasts could have allowed us to share the burden of the young. Frequent ovulation and breeding for pleasure ensured continuous pregnancy.
Then, females could follow their males in social groupings, foraging, and sharing burdens, and joining males at the site of the kill.

So a more apt description of males would not be “provider” but “pioneer”. Paving the way for females, bringing down game as they go.

Our sexual roles may be less suited to monogamy than we thought. We thought males needed to hang around to take care of the burdened female and the helpless young. If females distribute the burden and protect young in numbers, the protection role of the male is moot. In any case - how can the male protect AND hunt at the same time?

So perhaps our society is better suited to groupings of matriarchies with nomadic male tribes that matriarchies for purposes of breeding, and travel from matriarchy to matriarchy across the world, diversifying our species’ gene pool.

It would explain a lot. Like, why men are so restless. Why marriage is so difficult. Why communication between men and women is such an awkward thing. Why men don’t appear to have instincts of monogamy. Why women so often return home to their families, rather than wanting to move for the sake of a man.
 

Rebis

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Rats appear to potentially be self-aware.
There is footage of a big cat grieving the death of her cub that I’ve come across before.
Prairie dogs have a very complex language including descriptors of clothing and colors, and crows most likely do too.

I have an opinion I think all of you will scoff at. I think a majority of the scientific knowledge we hold as “fact” is, indeed, fiction. I might make a thread about it.

Our concept of what self-awareness is and whether animals have it - theory based. Our concept of intelligence and communication and how we measure these things between humans and animals - theory based.
Our tendency to behold theory as truth? High.

Humans have fallen from grace a bit insofar as science is concerned. We live in a new era, likely wrought by technology, where we mistakenly believe that science is fact. It is a fact that we have self-awareness and animals do not. It is a fact that males evolved as providers. We’ve largely forgotten that these things are theories, not facts.

I also feel like arrogance is growing. Not only in the general populous, but in the scientific community. It’s not unusual to see scientists assuming conclusions without hesitation.

Science is the philosophy of observation which allows us to form theories that are not necessarily (and most likely not) true. Those theories help us to test and explore the world through a helpful paradigm which can eventually lead us to the rare discover of real, factual information. We’ve forgotten how imperfect science is.

I question our concepts of self-awareness. That philosophy was founded upon the notions that humans must have something that other animals do not, but we took for granted our ability to test for self-awareness in animals.

I think one thing we can determine is the complexity of the language can only be encoded in genetic expression of primal vocal communication, I think that's the distinction here. We can record words and read of descriptions well into the past and our language has become incredibly categorical as we've developed studies of subjects over 1,000s of years. In a murder of crows as they call it, dunbars number would still apply so there'd be a limited complexity in the development of nuanced language within that murder, compared to another group, while our language spans generations, eras, countries and the sort.
 

Inexorable Username

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Rats appear to potentially be self-aware.
There is footage of a big cat grieving the death of her cub that I’ve come across before.
Prairie dogs have a very complex language including descriptors of clothing and colors, and crows most likely do too.

I have an opinion I think all of you will scoff at. I think a majority of the scientific knowledge we hold as “fact” is, indeed, fiction. I might make a thread about it.

Our concept of what self-awareness is and whether animals have it - theory based. Our concept of intelligence and communication and how we measure these things between humans and animals - theory based.
Our tendency to behold theory as truth? High.

Humans have fallen from grace a bit insofar as science is concerned. We live in a new era, likely wrought by technology, where we mistakenly believe that science is fact. It is a fact that we have self-awareness and animals do not. It is a fact that males evolved as providers. We’ve largely forgotten that these things are theories, not facts.

I also feel like arrogance is growing. Not only in the general populous, but in the scientific community. It’s not unusual to see scientists assuming conclusions without hesitation.

Science is the philosophy of observation which allows us to form theories that are not necessarily (and most likely not) true. Those theories help us to test and explore the world through a helpful paradigm which can eventually lead us to the rare discover of real, factual information. We’ve forgotten how imperfect science is.

I question our concepts of self-awareness. That philosophy was founded upon the notions that humans must have something that other animals do not, but we took for granted our ability to test for self-awareness in animals.

I think one thing we can determine is the complexity of the language can only be encoded in genetic expression of primal vocal communication, I think that's the distinction here. We can record words and read of descriptions well into the past and our language has become incredibly categorical as we've developed studies of subjects over 1,000s of years. In a murder of crows as they call it, dunbars number would still apply so there'd be a limited complexity in the development of nuanced language within that murder, compared to another group, while our language spans generations, eras, countries and the sort.

With prarie dogs it was demonstrated that the animals appear to have dialects.
 

Inexorable Username

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Rats appear to potentially be self-aware.
There is footage of a big cat grieving the death of her cub that I’ve come across before.
Prairie dogs have a very complex language including descriptors of clothing and colors, and crows most likely do too.

I have an opinion I think all of you will scoff at. I think a majority of the scientific knowledge we hold as “fact” is, indeed, fiction. I might make a thread about it.

Our concept of what self-awareness is and whether animals have it - theory based. Our concept of intelligence and communication and how we measure these things between humans and animals - theory based.
Our tendency to behold theory as truth? High.

Humans have fallen from grace a bit insofar as science is concerned. We live in a new era, likely wrought by technology, where we mistakenly believe that science is fact. It is a fact that we have self-awareness and animals do not. It is a fact that males evolved as providers. We’ve largely forgotten that these things are theories, not facts.

I also feel like arrogance is growing. Not only in the general populous, but in the scientific community. It’s not unusual to see scientists assuming conclusions without hesitation.

Science is the philosophy of observation which allows us to form theories that are not necessarily (and most likely not) true. Those theories help us to test and explore the world through a helpful paradigm which can eventually lead us to the rare discover of real, factual information. We’ve forgotten how imperfect science is.

I question our concepts of self-awareness. That philosophy was founded upon the notions that humans must have something that other animals do not, but we took for granted our ability to test for self-awareness in animals.

I think one thing we can determine is the complexity of the language can only be encoded in genetic expression of primal vocal communication, I think that's the distinction here. We can record words and read of descriptions well into the past and our language has become incredibly categorical as we've developed studies of subjects over 1,000s of years. In a murder of crows as they call it, dunbars number would still apply so there'd be a limited complexity in the development of nuanced language within that murder, compared to another group, while our language spans generations, eras, countries and the sort.

We can record and observe an awful lot about human language, but we are human, and identify with humans very easily so philosophizing about our capabilities is a common, fruitful exercise.
Insofar as other animals are concerned, when you compare the amount of study and research we have applied to understanding the rest of the animal kingdom, compared to what we’ve studied of ourselves, the data is laughable.
We know humans can develop a fairly complex sign language, and we also believe that animals can understand where another animal is hungry or not, even though they are not the same species. (African predator and prey mammals sharing a watering hole)

Dogs seem to be able to predict when their owners are coming home in ways that can sometimes baffle humans. Crows, rats, (and I can tell you anecdotally, deer) appear to pass knowledge down through generations.

I think at some point we need to start questioning the limitations we suspect we understand in regards to animal communication.
 

Rebis

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With prarie dogs it was demonstrated that the animals appear to have dialects.

For me I wouldn't define dialects as advanced language because it's regional, what I would define as advanced language is the ability to express language across eras, cultures and civilizations. Since we are the apex predator of this world we've dominated the physical landscape, we've seen every corner of the world through photos, we've seen into the galaxy, understand unique phenomena around the world, how the quantum world interacts in a counter intuitive way, so on and so forth. We therefore have a much wider complexity of ideas we have understood through documentation of language through out these eras: gods, parables, myths and legends. Though all can be represented in archetypal form, we're constantly combining descriptions to create new ones that supersede their building blocks. A rock is a rock, a collection of rocks can be a wall, a house, a mountain, an ore deposit, concrete, a castle, a furnace, boulders, sediment and so on. We have a lot of composite words that stem from primary categories which have been developed over a millenia or longer. Given the lack of documentation from animals to record language into complex categories and distinctions, along with their relatively isolated evolution to a geographical region through destruction of their environment by us, and the fact they still need to hunt and harvest food (if they're carnivorous they're combatants, if they're herbivores they're prey), all of these factors would suggest they don't have the liberty, and quite frankly the necessity to constitute an evolution of complex language denotations for advanced language similar to our own.

In terms of grammar I believe syntax is implicit in people, Noam Chomsky syntactic structures talks about universal laws to different language formats such as a descriptor, a quantifier and a form: (Rock, Tree, water, Food, shelter, danger and so on) I would say every animal has a universal structure to their language, it's needed for communication. That would be enscribed in their genes.
 

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This is an article referencing a pretty interesting study that observed a potential mental connection between rats

(Just a second - that isn’t my response. Just a link I wanted to find to show you)
 

Rebis

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The limiting factors I'm describing do exist, namely limitation of language that can be socially inherited in a species as a whole through the dunbars number, the lack of complex written communication through symbolism and even their cognitive necessities: Just because an animal could benefit from complex language doesn't mean "evolution" pulls a wand out of their ass and deems it to be so. A lot of animals would arguably benefit from primal communication where there is limited communication but the archetypes are very simple and thus faster to respond to: Directions (N,S,E,W or from above), water, food, a grasp of numbers (1 or many) and a few other social functions that stem from breeding purposes (copulation, grief (loss of genetic information, danger lurking) and so on.

I don't perceive humans as advanced based on cognitive faculties, I view us advanced socially given our language, our ability to understand concepts through written language without observing the phenomena directly (I've never seen india, but I have a vast description of the inner workings, weather, fruits, culture and so on). This ability to abstract just could not exist in an unorganized society, primarily hunting for food, shelter, water and a mate. Think about our specialization of tasks compared to other animals that have a well-rounded general ability. Our economic models, our artificially created order through complex social institutions. Laws don't inherently exist yet people operate on that premise, A corporation is somehow disparate of personal responsibility but is considered an entity, even though it purely exists within our minds as a concept. There's no physical representation.
 

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With prarie dogs it was demonstrated that the animals appear to have dialects.

For me I wouldn't define dialects as advanced language because it's regional, what I would define as advanced language is the ability to express language across eras, cultures and civilizations. Since we are the apex predator of this world we've dominated the physical landscape, we've seen every corner of the world through photos, we've seen into the galaxy, understand unique phenomena around the world, how the quantum world interacts in a counter intuitive way, so on and so forth. We therefore have a much wider complexity of ideas we have understood through documentation of language through out these eras: gods, parables, myths and legends. Though all can be represented in archetypal form, we're constantly combining descriptions to create new ones that supersede their building blocks. A rock is a rock, a collection of rocks can be a wall, a house, a mountain, an ore deposit, concrete, a castle, a furnace, boulders, sediment and so on. We have a lot of composite words that stem from primary categories which have been developed over a millenia or longer. Given the lack of documentation from animals to record language into complex categories and distinctions, along with their relatively isolated evolution to a geographical region through destruction of their environment by us, and the fact they still need to hunt and harvest food (if they're carnivorous they're combatants, if they're herbivores they're prey), all of these factors would suggest they don't have the liberty, and quite frankly the necessity to constitute an evolution of complex language denotations for advanced language similar to our own.

In terms of grammar I believe syntax is implicit in people, Noam Chomsky syntactic structures talks about universal laws to different language formats such as a descriptor, a quantifier and a form: (Rock, Tree, water, Food, shelter, danger and so on) I would say every animal has a universal structure to their language, it's needed for communication. That would be enscribed in their genes.

This makes me so sad that I don’t have internet access at the moment. This is such a stimulating conversation! I haven’t felt this mentally excited in quite a while. (I live in intellectual repression. No one will discuss such things with me.)

Do you know what I wish we had for the forum? A conference line. Like in the old hacker days. That way we could call in and do things like clean/organize while we discuss such topics. I wonder if anyone here is interested in a conference line...Or how a person would go about setting that up.

I’m not arguing that humans are not advanced. It’s painfully obvious that humans are an advanced species of animal. The proof is in the pudding, as you’ve pointed out.

The problem is, we’re not necessarily correct in our suppositions of why the human is advanced or what makes the human different. Many of our philosophies on that front are based on a monumental pile of evidence regarding humans, and a pitiful pile of evidence regarding all other animals.

When we assume limitations on other animal species, we conduct studies and form philosophies that embody those assumed limitations, which have become, at that point, inherent.

The more we assume theories as true and repeat these inherent “questionables” over, and over again in our studies and philosophies, the further divorced we become from that foundational paradigm, which may or may not have been valid.

As an observation, I feel comfortable saying that the longer a theory has been assumed true, the more upset people are if you question it.

We end up with this culture that refuses to question or challenge the theories upon which our knowledge was based. That violates the utility of science.

Science is a tool for forming theories. We form the theories, and then we test them, challenge them, revise them, and form new theories as needed. When we fail to test, challenge, and revise, we fail to exercise scientific theories in the way that they are intended to be exercised. (I believe I might be able to find a pretty good talk that covered this if my phone will cooperate).

So when it comes to animals, one of the things we must realize first and foremost is how little we know. Assuming limitations is a misleading paradigm. However, operating under the assumption that we know very little, but we suppose XYZ to be true, opens the floor for us to make new observations, compare them to other studies, and then take these concepts back to the original theory and explore the entire thought from start to finish, in search of greater understanding.

That is how scientific theories were meant to operate, and that is how we have been failing, in modern times, to properly conduct science. We have forgotten to continuously return to the original as we ponder our newest additions to that paradigm.
 

Rebis

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Think about this: we could understand the world through books, without ever experiencing much of the world we can physically observe. We could understand economics, physics, chemistry, a hundred other fields, countries, topology, cultural nuances, traditions, ancient civilizations, a million other job roles, differences in physiology, vegetation, conditions to support life, gosh there is just so much we can understand, that is composite to an archetypal language, without ever having experienced it physically.

To my knowledge, and to everyone elses: We cannot confirm that an animal can't abstract, but we can confirm the environment it lives in and the subsequent limitations of ideas that can be expressed with a given environment, within a small region of the world and with a social function that's limited by dunbars number.

We can operate as a nation, the USA being 330 million now? united in a "national pride" or whatever, with barely knowing 0.00000000000001% of the population (maybe that was too much 0s)

Society is far too complex, and we've adapted to that complex society. If society and all of its complexity, a result of documentation was lost and everyone was reset to their archetypal language of grunts with a limited amount of expression, then I say we'd be equal to other animals without written language. So no, we aren't advanced because I think of humans as superior, we are advanced because we understand the world through a far more complex lens than co-dependence. How does economics have anything to do with evolving as a species? yet we regard it as just as important as survival, if not more as we haven't been threatened in a long, long time. Asides from ourselves of course.

Every animal, more or less has been regulated by nature. but with our analysis of the world and subsequent documentation, we've said a big fuck you to diseases instead of waiting for evolution, a slow and painful process over 1000s of years catching up and eventually saving us. We needed energy, well we experimented on how to harness this.
 

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The limiting factors I'm describing do exist, namely limitation of language that can be socially inherited in a species as a whole through the dunbars number, the lack of complex written communication through symbolism and even their cognitive necessities: Just because an animal could benefit from complex language doesn't mean "evolution" pulls a wand out of their ass and deems it to be so. A lot of animals would arguably benefit from primal communication where there is limited communication but the archetypes are very simple and thus faster to respond to: Directions (N,S,E,W or from above), water, food, a grasp of numbers (1 or many) and a few other social functions that stem from breeding purposes (copulation, grief (loss of genetic information, danger lurking) and so on.

I don't perceive humans as advanced based on cognitive faculties, I view us advanced socially given our language, our ability to understand concepts through written language without observing the phenomena directly (I've never seen india, but I have a vast description of the inner workings, weather, fruits, culture and so on). This ability to abstract just could not exist in an unorganized society, primarily hunting for food, shelter, water and a mate. Think about our specialization of tasks compared to other animals that have a well-rounded general ability. Our economic models, our artificially created order through complex social institutions. Laws don't inherently exist yet people operate on that premise, A corporation is somehow disparate of personal responsibility but is considered an entity, even though it purely exists within our minds as a concept. There's no physical representation.

Think about this: we could understand the world through books, without ever experiencing much of the world we can physically observe. We could understand economics, physics, chemistry, a hundred other fields, countries, topology, cultural nuances, traditions, ancient civilizations, a million other job roles, differences in physiology, vegetation, conditions to support life, gosh there is just so much we can understand, that is composite to an archetypal language, without ever having experienced it physically.

To my knowledge, and to everyone elses: We cannot confirm that an animal can't abstract, but we can confirm the environment it lives in and the subsequent limitations of ideas that can be expressed with a given environment, within a small region of the world and with a social function that's limited by dunbars number.

We can operate as a nation, the USA being 330 million now? united in a "national pride" or whatever, with barely knowing 0.00000000000001% of the population (maybe that was too much 0s)

Society is far too complex, and we've adapted to that complex society. If society and all of its complexity, a result of documentation was lost and everyone was reset to their archetypal language of grunts with a limited amount of expression, then I say we'd be equal to other animals without written language. So no, we aren't advanced because I think of humans as superior, we are advanced because we understand the world through a far more complex lens than co-dependence. How does economics have anything to do with evolving as a species? yet we regard it as just as important as survival, if not more as we haven't been threatened in a long, long time. Asides from ourselves of course.

Every animal, more or less has been regulated by nature. but with our analysis of the world and subsequent documentation, we've said a big fuck you to diseases instead of waiting for evolution, a slow and painful process over 1000s of years catching up and eventually saving us. We needed energy, well we experimented on how to harness this.

I’m starting to get the feeling you might not be enjoying this conversation at this point. We don’t have to continue. (In any case, brb. I have to check on something)
 

Rebis

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With prarie dogs it was demonstrated that the animals appear to have dialects.

For me I wouldn't define dialects as advanced language because it's regional, what I would define as advanced language is the ability to express language across eras, cultures and civilizations. Since we are the apex predator of this world we've dominated the physical landscape, we've seen every corner of the world through photos, we've seen into the galaxy, understand unique phenomena around the world, how the quantum world interacts in a counter intuitive way, so on and so forth. We therefore have a much wider complexity of ideas we have understood through documentation of language through out these eras: gods, parables, myths and legends. Though all can be represented in archetypal form, we're constantly combining descriptions to create new ones that supersede their building blocks. A rock is a rock, a collection of rocks can be a wall, a house, a mountain, an ore deposit, concrete, a castle, a furnace, boulders, sediment and so on. We have a lot of composite words that stem from primary categories which have been developed over a millenia or longer. Given the lack of documentation from animals to record language into complex categories and distinctions, along with their relatively isolated evolution to a geographical region through destruction of their environment by us, and the fact they still need to hunt and harvest food (if they're carnivorous they're combatants, if they're herbivores they're prey), all of these factors would suggest they don't have the liberty, and quite frankly the necessity to constitute an evolution of complex language denotations for advanced language similar to our own.

In terms of grammar I believe syntax is implicit in people, Noam Chomsky syntactic structures talks about universal laws to different language formats such as a descriptor, a quantifier and a form: (Rock, Tree, water, Food, shelter, danger and so on) I would say every animal has a universal structure to their language, it's needed for communication. That would be enscribed in their genes.

This makes me so sad that I don’t have internet access at the moment. This is such a stimulating conversation! I haven’t felt this mentally excited in quite a while. (I live in intellectual repression. No one will discuss such things with me.)

Do you know what I wish we had for the forum? A conference line. Like in the old hacker days. That way we could call in and do things like clean/organize while we discuss such topics. I wonder if anyone here is interested in a conference line...Or how a person would go about setting that up.

I’m not arguing that humans are not advanced. It’s painfully obvious that humans are an advanced species of animal. The proof is in the pudding, as you’ve pointed out.

The problem is, we’re not necessarily correct in our suppositions of why the human is advanced or what makes the human different. Many of our philosophies on that front are based on a monumental pile of evidence regarding humans, and a pitiful pile of evidence regarding all other animals.

When we assume limitations on other animal species, we conduct studies and form philosophies that embody those assumed limitations, which have become, at that point, inherent.

The more we assume theories as true and repeat these inherent “questionables” over, and over again in our studies and philosophies, the further divorced we become from that foundational paradigm, which may or may not have been valid.

As an observation, I feel comfortable saying that the longer a theory has been assumed true, the more upset people are if you question it.

We end up with this culture that refuses to question or challenge the theories upon which our knowledge was based. That violates the utility of science.

Science is a tool for forming theories. We form the theories, and then we test them, challenge them, revise them, and form new theories as needed. When we fail to test, challenge, and revise, we fail to exercise scientific theories in the way that they are intended to be exercised. (I believe I might be able to find a pretty good talk that covered this if my phone will cooperate).

So when it comes to animals, one of the things we must realize first and foremost is how little we know. Assuming limitations is a misleading paradigm. However, operating under the assumption that we know very little, but we suppose XYZ to be true, opens the floor for us to make new observations, compare them to other studies, and then take these concepts back to the original theory and explore the entire thought from start to finish, in search of greater understanding.

That is how scientific theories were meant to operate, and that is how we have been failing, in modern times, to properly conduct science. We have forgotten to continuously return to the original as we ponder our newest additions to that paradigm.

I think it is a fail and a success: If you questions the foundations rigoriously you cannot ascend to another layer of abstraction. Granted it may be wrong but that's just probability. Having said that we've developed tools like mathematics that do fact-check against our bias (pls don't quote incompleteness theorem), I can't just say the maths is wrong because I disagree with it, while a few hundred years ago I could probably call the science blasphemy against god's divine intentions and that'd be your opinion derailed.

I think the reason for our advancement is our contrarian/creative approach: We're constantly transmuting ideas, concepts, idols and the like by taking disparate ideas and smashing them together. Thinking of you cerebros, centaur and a billion other human-hybrids. I seen a video the other day, granted it's anecdotal and given that I'm a human i'm merging disparate ideas here (forgive me!!), but the fact that a lot of animals struggle with abstraction through iconism:

We think we're good, but our problem solving leads to another problem. These problems are predominantly fabricated by ourselves: We solved food, ok next problem: We solved shelter next problem: so on and so forth, while I don't think animals have really ascended this level of basic necessities that they can focus on problems that are essentially artificial: Like the concept of debt, or being late for work, or sleeping less to catch a bus the next morning.

So we're still anxious, shrivelled creatures that haven't adapted to being top of the hierarchy. You can see lions are quite majestic as they were at the top for a long time, they are consistently dominant and relatively unfearful, yet look at us: new monkey in town, globalised and became universal in what, 7,000 civilization wise, 100,000 on the spread of hominids? Lions have been at the top for a long ass time, they've evolved past their anxieties which produces cruelty, torture, fear of the unknown and the likes. Humans are insane
 

Rebis

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Shoudn't stop a conversation because you don't want to, especially if someone is criticizing your perspective. Go ahead, by all means. I'd hate to feel as if someone didn't criticize me because I was sensitive.

Having said that, I've really tried to not get consumed by this forum. I posted a ridiculous amount in little over a month, I've kept pretty productive the last week. There's a time to grow and speak, If I speak then I do not grow. If I grow then I do not speak, in terms of growth it's just getting more involved in my course and reading more. I've been feeling stagnant recently and forums like these are an indulgence of what I can easily enjoy, idk no pain no game. I can spend hours here talking about an opinion but I feel I should give it up really, and the information I learn is disproportional to the time invested, including the fact a lot of us here are expressing ideas we've rarely developed over a long period of time, which leads to the information produced as being highly nuanced and rarely applied to life in another way.

Idk, feeling weird. Just want to say I do appreciate your direct approach and you do make some points that I rarely hear, which is good because we all hate echo chambers, right? Even in this argument we've interrelated intelligence, complex language functions, presumptious limitations of animals and so on. All merged together for one big ball of goo.

basically I see the reason we're at the top of the chain is advanced language skills, our ability to unite billions of people based on a concept separate from the limitations of dunbar's number which doesn't apply to us much anymore and the knowledge we ceaselessly accumulate over the generations that is built on so many layers, like phonetics, then words, description of words, quantifiers, sentences, concepts an then.... a field of study. If we were put in the tropics without knowledge, and our brains were still wired to think about language, then that extra second we used to interpret words would be a life and death civilization. We won the species roulette, a gorilla would easily rip 10 humans apart, a cheetah would eat us alive, an elephant could step on us and a snake could kill us with poison, a bear could survive in the winter without supplementary help.

We avoided gorillas entirely, we formed packs to prevent predation and hid on top of trees and around fire to ward off predators, we hunted elephant by encircling them and poking them with sicks, we create antidotes to avoid snake poison and we wore animal coats to adopt to cold climates. We created antidotes by subjecting snakes to cruelty, we created medicine for ourselves by subjecting animals to rigorous experiments. We are well too creative for our own good, and our capacity for cruelty is probably unmatched. Every other animal with their physical abilities were the hare, and we were the tortoise. Slow and steady social evolution of huts to tribes, towns, cities, nations and destroying animal environments won the race. We weren't inherently superior to other animals, we were on an equal plane for a long time, infact inferior as we had to survive off scavenging goods from other alpha predators that left corpses. Yet here we are, we crawled through the shit and by sheer chance are at the top.

We just won the battle, and put ourselves in such a state of control over the environment than any other animal it's just impossible for an animal to become superior in this respect. All they have is evolution while we can evolve an idea in so much as a generation.

It's just so crazy to think about this.
 

Rebis

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Also given other forum members on here, I may appear as cold or confrontational but it's never personal. The only personal element would be looking for someone to challenge, in which case it's a win-win really: If they prove me wrong I'm stimulated because I learnt something I hadn't previously considered, if I am given context to an opinion it helps me develop my beliefs while I post to see if there's any inconsistencies in my argument, thus reevaluating my own beliefs if I can see there's something missing in the point i'm trying to express.
 

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Also given other forum members on here, I may appear as cold or confrontational but it's never personal. The only personal element would be looking for someone to challenge, in which case it's a win-win really: If they prove me wrong I'm stimulated because I learnt something I hadn't previously considered, if I am given context to an opinion it helps me develop my beliefs while I post to see if there's any inconsistencies in my argument, thus reevaluating my own beliefs if I can see there's something missing in the point i'm trying to express.

Just a second! I’m back now and I’m catching up. I got called away for a minute to help with something. My silence was not emotionally inspired. (I feel like I need to qualify that, as I know for myself that socialization with the absence of feedback can give me a bit of anxiety)
 

Rebis

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Just a second! I’m back now and I’m catching up. I got called away for a minute to help with something. My silence was not emotionally inspired. (I feel like I need to qualify that, as I know for myself that socialization with the absence of feedback can give me a bit of anxiety)

Take your time, I have a habit of that too. i think it was developed from instant messenger where it notifies the user that you've read it, so the natural instinct is to respond immediately. I had an argument with @EndogenousRebel and he made me realise I should drop the habit instead of responding immediately. I'm gonna take a break here, I'll be on in an hour or two.
 

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Also given other forum members on here, I may appear as cold or confrontational but it's never personal. The only personal element would be looking for someone to challenge, in which case it's a win-win really: If they prove me wrong I'm stimulated because I learnt something I hadn't previously considered, if I am given context to an opinion it helps me develop my beliefs while I post to see if there's any inconsistencies in my argument, thus reevaluating my own beliefs if I can see there's something missing in the point i'm trying to express.

Don’t worry. I seldom take things personally or get upset by arguments. However, I’ve worked to get better at respecting the feelings of others in the contexts of an argument, because I’ve been checking out my MBIT shadow function.

As far as wasting times on forums is concerned, I hear you! Especially if a conversation is stimulating, time management gets tough. That’s why I wish we had a conference line for this forum so we could choose to engage in it while we accomplish the more mundane life tasks we need to handle. Hackers used to have numbers where you could just call in and wait for others to join. How amazing would it be if we could all discuss a topic of this while also being productive? I would get much more exercise in, that’s for sure.

I think you might be using models of past interactions with others to judge the underlying beliefs that encourage my views. And, to be quite frank, I think you’re complicating the issue. In the interests of them and brevity, I’ve been trying to practice being more succinct with my delivery. Otherwise, I’ll also get off on a major monologue and - yeah - that can be a massive time sink.

Firstly, let me clear up some mistaken generalizations you may or may not have. I’ve been developing this philosophy for a while now. (In a conscious sense, probably about 4-6 months).
I also don’t challenge the perspective of human supremacy. At least - I just haven’t entertained that philosophy in quite some time. Last time I did, it was a dead end. So it’s back burnered. I think the existence of such is irrelevant to the argument at hand.
I also have a deep respect for science, and math, to me, is as close to fact as is humanly possible to get. I would never presume to question math. In fact, I think it would be dangerous for anyone but the worlds greatest philosophers to do such a thing, because math is the foundation of logic, and without logic we have no capacity for reason, I think. No, math is unquestionable.
I also have a deep respect for philosophy, and I’ve wondered from time to time while philosophy is dead. At least, it seems to be dying.

Philosophy, math, and science are all siblings. Philosophy is the practice of envisioning what could be and what may be. Science is the practice of making observations that lend credit to our philosophies. Math is the language by which we describe the facts of the world. So we can view this as a pyramid, with philosophy at the top and math at the bottom.

Truth comes from math. Theory comes from science. Thought comes from philosophy. So Truth > Theory > Thought, or Thought > Theory > Truth.

So, hopefully, that gives you more of a psychological context for what I am saying and the intent behind it.

Now let me simplify my argument to save us both time and effort.

As a species, we have blended the boundaries of truth and theory, and failed to ascend to, or return to thought. In a very short space of time, we have begun to regard theory as truth, and we have stopped returning to thought to evaluate theory. These three aspects are essential to one another in terms of expanding the human understanding.

There’s one thing we hear a lot these days. “Science has it wrong. A new study shows that...”
Why should science be wrong so often if science itself is a study of theories? It is because we have begun to behold those theories as fact.

I wonder if the observation that we appear to have stopped increasing in IQ each generation, in developed countries, suggests that we are perhaps no longer growing intellectually. Could that be relevant to the lack of philosophy in society today?

EDIT: Alright Rebis! In the interests of productivity, maybe we should make a pact between the two of us that, for today, we won’t respond to each other until at least one hour has passed! It might also be a good idea to start a new thread. Maybe other people in the community would like to weigh in on this topic.
 

Rebis

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what is a thought composed of? An observation.

We are still observing, as we did at any point in civilization and our broader existence. However, we have observed virtually all phenomena in our current surroundings: The growth of a tree, animals, behaviours and so on. We have observed a lot and documented even more,

I don't think we're becoming ignorant as a result, I'd say ignorant has always been there. However, our information is becoming more categorical but that's because we've moved from foundational thought which I'd define as concepts that are immediately deducible from observation, like an apple falling from a tree, to complex thought: It isn't just dropping, there is gravitational forces, friction, differentials in acceleration, wind pressure and so on. As you said, this disables the role of foundational thought in our understanding but I think we're finding true information.

A quote I use quite often which reflects on this idea:

"Errors, like straws, upon the surface flow: he who would search for pearls must dive below."

Once you find the foundation or principles of a system you can start to work your way into the complexities of that system. For example, the 4 constant forces explain much of the universe to us in a fundamental, axiomatic way. We know repulsion occurs between forces that are magnetized, we know attraction occurs due to gravity, etc.
Likewise, the concept of thinking is a result of not understanding: That is I observe a phenomena and think why it occurs. Let's take consciousness: We thought it was in the heart, the brain, the stomach, it was incorporeal. We thought the mind was separate from the body and such. Yet after many thinkers over the course of civilization, we've sifted through the ideas that don't seem logical. How could the stomach be the center of thought if people have been stabbed in the belly but suffer no immediate cognitive problems?

Thought is a prerequisite to knowledge. Let's say this was prehistoric times: I think the soul resides within my eyes. Since claims aren't precedented on a work of knowledge I say the soul resides within my eyes because that is how I see. You say you think it resides in the stomach because hunger is the most persistent sensation. The next day you decide the heart because it always beats, and the beating hearts of dead men do not exist. A few weeks later we change our minds and say it resides within the feet, as elderly man die in their beds after they cannot walk themselves: As our "knowledge" is no more than guesses, we can state anything with the probability that it is true.

I think we've accumulated a lot of knowledge, and repeated these observations a million times it's the only consistent option. If I throw a ball in the air it will drop, provided I can observe if there's a condition that would prevent it from dropping. It is true in absolute skepticism that I can't be assured it won't fly into space the next time because past =/= future, but it's the only basis we have to go on. It's more of a proof really: Any scientific theory worth a grain of salt has a lot of proofs related to it and if that isn't the case, someone comes along and entirely dissects the research. So there's always a constant battle of falsification: Sure the average person will blindly follow science because for the most part they don't care, and if A causes B that's enough for them. But true scientists (not playing no scotsman here), but the actual scientists would only use data that's reliable and testable, mainly to prevent embarrassment, increase probability within the research scope and actually provide an incremental change in the knowledge base.

I would say we'll actually need a higher IQ for conceptual understanding, such as theoretical understanding of quantum mechanics, concepts in physics and such that aren't intuitive by nature. I'd say we'll have a decline in the next 10,000 years in spatial awareness namely because we don't scan our physical environment as much with our cybernetic companion: the mobile. We'll probably grow bigger brains to process all the information we're accumulating that isn't from the visual cortex, like kids reading massive books at the age of 6 which wasn't a phenomena 200 years ago or so. The education system is teaching kids a lot about the world and in a much broader spectrum (Geography, sciences, religion, english, math and whatever have you)

Basically:

I think there is less to think about that isn't dependent on knowledge that's been proven over 100s of years. Due to this, one cannot think without knowledge propositions, hence why philosophy has stagnated in influence as something of a spinning thread to form independent subjects based on observable axioms. Society has became way too complex for someone's opinion to be valid just because they thought of it, in contrast to fields that have had 1000s of contributing members, all stifflers for each other's work.

It's about operations too: With society becoming increasing complex we have to forget about the pillars they're predicated on. You can be assured they'll not go away entirely but people won't reason from first principles because it's exhausting. There are people that will however, and if there is a flaw I'm sure they'll identify it. I think most of the science that's proven wrong is actually knowledge that hasn't been around for 100s of years, like the effect of eggs on health: nutrition is more fleshed out but it's went through a lot of hurdles mainly associating x with y and using correlative measures. Eggs are bad because of cholesterol, they increase blood pressure. Well now we understand dietary cholesterol makes up for a small amount of cholesterol in the blood which is what drives blood pressure in the first place.

The best example I can give of the importance is thought is probably your boy einstein completely dismantling classical physics and replacing the model with gravity. At the time classical physics was around 100 years old.

There's less to discover in our immediate surroundings, and therefore less to think about that hasn't already been recorded. When I think of hot topics a a teenager the themes that people thought about were ones that weren't defined, mainly because one kid couldn't dismantle the field of science with merely a random thought. The questions were "What is space?" "If a tree drops in a forest.... doth it make a sound?"
"Do we see different colours, is my blue your tango?" "What is consciousness?" We're still thinking but maybe in an advanced level. I mean these experts in their field dedicated a lot of time, effort and sweat into their work, not that it inherently matters but the fact checking along with the analytical minds of people who are so obsessed with truths and consistently that finally a theory emerged as a precedent for knowledge claims.

It's hard to think of an original idea because of the amount of people that have lived in the last 1000 years alone, the amount of inventions, abstractions and the like that have changed over the years. 8 billion are so living right now, and evidently there is a limit to A) The environment we're exposed to (the earth) B) Patterns of thought (Logical induction/deduction, chained reasoning, first principles, emotional etc ).
A completely unique idea, that you can't describe in other ways.

If we look at the past we could say that a big flaw with civilization was actually disorder and the lack of consistency: people could debate anything, with anyone without the need for factual proof. Anecdotes and persuasion was key. Now not so much, if someone gives you a bogus statistic it can be checked using google along with so many other things. If someone says "what if cells don't exist?" Well, you could give a buttload of evidence that infer the existence of an entity that has cellular functions, which of course would be a cell.

When we come to assumptions in science I see it mostly inferred by people that have just brushed on the topic rather than understanding the core principles. While the people that produced the paper had to have known the inner principles for it to be peer reviewed, acknowledge by other academics, incorporated into some technological function in a corporate and government, which is then used in wider society. This chain is a process of acceptance, rarely by virtue of following the crowd but fundamentally for practicality, reliability, validity and consistency. Those are the four pillars of the modern world and everything we claim to be true, within degrees of freedom.

The people that read the media instead of the science are ones that behold science as fact, mainly because they're lazy and just want to know how to get from A to B, rather than why it occurs. The media exaggerates "science" in so many ways just to get a click, I can imagine the reason they use "science is wrong" is also to get a click because people would prefer themselves to be right than y'know, a field which lots of people have contributed their lives to.

PS: Remember the pact yo.
 

Rebis

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We're still observing this world, just in a more nuanced and domain specific way. In its simplest form, gravity doesn't really provide us with much, but applying it to concepts in aerodynamics, propulsion, escape velocity, momentum slingshotting around a planet with centrifugal/centripedal force, it evolves into a pretty advanced benefit.
 

Inexorable Username

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We're still observing this world, just in a more nuanced and domain specific way. In its simplest form, gravity doesn't really provide us with much, but applying it to concepts in aerodynamics, propulsion, escape velocity, momentum slingshotting around a planet with centrifugal/centripedal force, it evolves into a pretty advanced benefit.

Well that’s a fairly math-centric example. I think in terms of engineering, we don’t take much for granted.

Sciences involving living beings is where we begin to demonstrate the human tendency for arrogance - and yes, I do think humans have a tendency for arrogance. It’s no wonder, after all we have accomplished.

Do you still think we’re really exploring the world as we did? Certainly we’re exploring technology. I feel like we are becoming increasingly small-minded though when it comes to exploring the actual world. It’s a perception. Maybe I’m wrong about it.

One of the biggest errors of thinking that I’ve noticed so far is that our current scientific paradigm is very deterministic. We appear to learn very heavily towards nature-driven causes (evolution, genetics), and shy away from nurture-driven causes (to include environmental factors). However, more, and more of our science seems to suggest that living creatures are far less biologically deterministic than we had ever imagined.

For instance, we’ve come a long way with neurology. We used to be of the opinion that your brain was essentially “done” by the time the body had matured. We’ve since learned that the brain is extremely malleable compared to our original approach.

We also believed that you were essentially born with a collection of genes, and that was that. However, we’ve made significant progress to show that gene expression is much more complex than we had anticipated, we’ve made a fair few discoveries that contradict Darwinism, and so forth.

Even so, we continue to discuss, argue, and envision life in terms of our outdated paradigms. Darwinism, deterministic biological traits, heredity, aspects of evolutionary biology, etc.
These things are so heavily entrenched in us that contradicting them makes people angry. Try contradicting the concept that males evolved to protect females, and that’s where male aggression stems from. The emotional explosion is something to behold.

From old interviews I’ve seen, our best and our brightest 100 years ago weren’t nearly as arrogant and presumptuous as many of the great minds we look to today.

There’s a lot that I can say on the matter, but I don’t want to be too long-winded. It’s an issue I’ve been observing for a while, and one that appears to be causing bias in our scientists.

If we had to name the phenomenon, we could maybe called it “Hereditary Bias”? Something like that. A bias we have inherited by treating theories and philosophies as facts.

EDIT: Obviously, I don’t think I’m the first person to notice this! Lol. I’m sure there is already a perfectly good name for it. I just don’t know what it’s called. Fields I’ve noticed are affected - Economics, Medicine, Biology, Physiology, Psychology, Sociology, Neurology, Environmental studies, and zoology.
 

Inexorable Username

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Should we make this into its own thread? So we don’t overload your thread on self-awareness?
 

Rebis

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I'd need context on what you mean by people not understanding the function inheritance in genes.

As for darwinism in terms of evolution and adaptation to the environment through slight changes in the DNA sequence or epigenetics is true, though he didn't postulate it through that knowledge but nonetheless, there is proof species change as a result of the environment. In terms of darwinism suggesting surviving of the fittest he himself disagreed with the theory in his next book: Descent of man, suggesting the theory that co-evolution is much more beneficial to the species as a whole than survival of the fittest, though survival of the fittest plays a role in predators attacking the weak which removes that set of gene mutations from the pool if they haven't propagated them onto the next generation. And of course, eugenics and social darwinism was total bogus under the assumption dominant traits were dominant as a product of them being superior rather than the gene in question being the first to transcribe RNA onto the genetic marker. Kinda funny when you think about eugenics: The nazis thought impurity would ruin the race, yet when mixed with anyone in africa and asia there genes were recessive, funny that.

I mean for an event to occur between 2 "atoms" let's say then determinism is in play. It's binary reasoning, either it is determined or it is not. When we consider all logic the only way it makes sense is usually through a narrow lens, that is we have to reduce the variability of a proposition in order for that proposition to be exact and decrease the margin for error. The actual axioms of science are very few and far between, though the theories based on those principles can go either way, but namely those theories have some application and reliability to validate their existence as a concept.

If we've made significant progress toward showing that genes aren't inherited then that is the current consensus, as science goes through falsification through cumulative experiments and observations. I honestly don't share your view that the idea of darwnism and the likes holds such a view over us, maybe that's just me or the medical articles I read. Inheritance obviously plays a role in genetic transcription but doesn't consider nurture, it was scientists that assumed it was deterministic, that I agree, but usually science validates it's proposition using it's own knowledge base: For example, they didn't know why people were intelligent or exhibited behaviours, once they found out about genes they assumed it must come from ancestors and parents. Which is mostly true, but isn't the whole picture. Having said that, all they knew was genes played a pivotal role in the biology of a human and depending on some biological markers behaviours can be interpreted to a degree too. I see this as a problem of associating ideas such as "intelligence" "love" "mothering" "aggression" being characteristics of that gene, when really these genes are probably something very specific like this transporter sends this blood cell to this location.

Without the information we had, they inferred based on what they did know, rather than all possibilities. They can't operate on all possibilities after all. All they knew was this was true rather than the finer details.

Even so, we continue to discuss, argue, and envision life in terms of our outdated paradigms. Darwinism, deterministic biological traits, heredity, aspects of evolutionary biology, etc.
These things are so heavily entrenched in us that contradicting them makes people angry. Try contradicting the concept that males evolved to protect females, and that’s where male aggression stems from. The emotional explosion is something to behold.

You've been talking to too much dumb males. It's very easy to put evolution in the concept of normal language, that's probably what makes it so enticing as most users use it as a pseudo-god-of-the-gaps argument:

"Why am I weak?"
Insecurity infects their brain
"Because big brain"

Evolution is a cellular and genetic process, it doesn't transcribe genes for "anger" "very anger" and "testosterone fueled mega anger", I see the division of male/females historically speaking as simply being a product of passing on the genes: The female is passing on the next generation she needs to be cared for. That would be a genuine, genetically sound reason as the behaviour isn't complex: Every animal protects the offspring, most sacrifice their lives for their progeny so in that context. That would be a sounder reason. Anger is clearly apart of all humans. Also, for them it's probably a defence mechanism appealing to the natural order: If it's natural, it's justified. I don't need to regulate myself.

It shouldn't be seen as males were superior and females were inferior in this context, both played a pivotal role to passing on their genes. One gave birth, the other protected.
 
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