Yooo.

[Boddah]

Hey all. I've been really into the whole MBTI thing for a year or so and I have probably taken the test 15 or 20 times in numerous different moods and after certain situations during that time and I got INTP EVERY SINGLE TIME. At first I didn't agree with the result (especially the introvert part) but over time I began to understand myself more and embrace it and it's actually helped me with my social skills and interactions with others. I found this site after google-ing "forums for INTPS" and thought I would hang out for a while. Hope everyone is well and I am looking forward to understanding more!

 

[darque]

Hi Boddah, welcome.
I'm only a newbie myself so thought I would pass on the warm welcome I also received. Lots of good respectful people here and high quality conversations. Not everyone is an INTP but most appear to be. Enjoy.

 

[Marbles]

Welcome! There is surprisingly little talk about MBTI, here, but hopefully you'll feel at home.

 

[darque]

Well, I rarely shut up about it Marbles so there could be a whole lot more lol.

I'm actually not a big fan of MBTI, per se. Its a little limiting and one dimensional to capture a personality accurately and research has continued since then that is providing a lot more depth to Myers and Briggs work.

It was a valiant attempt at producing a testing instrument. Unfortunately the questions have a strong bias towards behaviours which can be heavily influenced by our experience, as such it tends to get very sketchy results with some types. I haven't checked stats but I suspect INTPs may fair a little better than average.

Like any complex entity, the sub-components can be quite abstract and difficult to interpret when separated from the whole but when I recently reviewed a type description on the Personality Cafe it was expressing a more abstract view than I remember so hopefully we are refining this.

Linda Berens (and others) approach of using temperament and behaviours styles is a step in the right direction.

 

[Boddah]

@Marbles Thanks for the welcome! That's fine, I didn't really expect this place to be like that. The website name caught my eye and it seems like a fun place.

@darque Thank you! I agree, it can be very vague and limiting. Not unlike a sort of "psychiatric astrology" for lack of a better term. I've read all the descriptions on 16personalities and found that a majority of them sound a bit like me in some way.
Also, it's difficult to take the test the way it should be. People will often answer the way the want to be instead of the way they are (myself included I'm sure) which is why I've taken it so many times. It's just given me a little insight on myself and it's always an interesting conversation.

 

[darque]

Well you are talking like an INTP.

 

[Marbles]

I'm curious, darque, how would you type me? You seem to have quite a bit of experience typing people, and you might have read some of my posts, now?

 

[darque]

To be honest Marbles, I haven't thought about it, but I will have a bit of a look.
I've attached CS Joseph's type grid for reference.

Current thinking is moving away from questions and using Linda Beren's interaction and temperament styles, which is an adaption of earlier work. Chase's grid use her method with a few name changes and he has expanded again.

He has a lot of videos in youtube and I am happy to credit him for a lot of my understanding, however he is a pretty intense and random ESTP who likes shock factor and drama so not to everyones taste. I also disagree with some areas of his interpretation so as always take it with a pinch of salt.

It is a much simpler method you just need to ask yourself the questions Concrete vs Abstract, Direct vs Informative etc. Let me know if you need help to understand how the differences manifest. I think Linda's wording was a little clearer.

 

[Marbles]

Alright, thank you. I think I know what I am, but I was curious about your impression. There is one axis on which I am almost centered.

 

[Boddah]

@darque How did you know I spoke my entire post aloud while I was typing it? I'll take that as a compliment considering the website we are using.

 

[darque]

@Marbles, yes that can happen its a bit of a flaw with testing questions as they cannot take personal experiences into account, or cultural. I have a close friend who is from Seychelles and suspect his dominant function is introverted but as they all appear to be very extroverted, especially socially, the scale is going to be skewed.

I was also meaning to mention that you written english is impeccable and has a very consistent timbre. Are you a native english speaker or is there something from Norwegian that is showing through? I will have a bit of a look at your posts tonight, I like a challenge

@Boddah, oooo, talking to think thats an extroverted thinking thing, so we may be wrong on your type, although I do talk to myself pretty constantly also. I find it helps me check my thinking as it always sounds right inside but can sound stupid out-loud.

Do you have a constant internal conversation going on, and is thinking the first thing you do in the morning when you wake up?

Personally I like a nice meaty bit of philosophy or physics before breakfast. Drives my wife crazy, I do my best to bite my lip but I can get a little over enthusiastic and want to share if it brought some new insight. Having a dominant Ti can do that to you as it is like a key in the lock and a new insight can suddenly unlock or bridge across previously unrelated understanding and you are a new thinking person instantaneously from there forward. It's a good rush and keeps us learning to get more of that.

 

[darque]

@Marbles, finally got a chance for a troll Marbles.
INTP... although it is difficult to assess people who are your own type apparently. But is seems a pretty reasonable guess based on the following.

I think I also tend to perceive

I think, I think, I think is in most posts, I'm not sure I ever saw an I feel so this places you with thinking in your top 2 slots.

I adapted my behavior in many ways, and tried to change the way I thought to be more superficial, but nimble.

This is pretty funny. Classic Ti hero comment, only Ti hero would be so presumptuous to consider superficial as an option.

We could turn this place into

This is an extroverted intuitive statement (Ne) and is also ethical (Fe) "We Could" as apposed to I will, or I could.

You might end up on the streets, or you might end up as Genghis Khan

Again, Ne, extrapolating about possible future and Fe referencing other not self.

These people identify with the bully, because in a world where dog eats dog, they would rather be predator than prey. So they start

Ok, this is a compound logical (Ti) statement: if, and, then. "These People" (Fe) objective reference

I dont like giving advice, because being laconic frequently makes me come off arrogant.

This is Fe inferior. "Makes me come off as arrogant" as it is the fear of others opinions and of being judged. It is also devaluing self "I don't like giving advice"

I'm not sure if you saw my response to Happy here. The reason why I called it... it was a lucky jag. Because the reference was stand back and watch the world burn. Thats a pretty classic Se Demon comment which is ENTP / ENFP. I don't specifically know how ENFP work, possibly a little more personal and would not find this forum interesting as it is too intellectual so ENTP seemed the most likely. These guys make excellent torturers by the way so don't upset him lol . INTP with Fi Demon prefer the self sacrificing nature of suicide bombing hence my reply.

I tried to skew my thinking in the direction of speed some time ago

I'm not sure a concrete person would ever consider trying to skew their thinking. This is also Fi Demon self experimenting which by nature is Ti Hero's confidence that they could even do such a thing.

Such a good universe, what a wasted opportunity.

This is the only Si nostalgic type comment I saw which is Si child the third slot.

My project was really to become more gregarious, "sensory" and immediately responsive to my environment (e.g. answer people more quickly, not zone out all the time).

This looks like a pretty classic Se trickster comment. I'd imagine only an INTP / INFP would say and you are unlikely to be the later.

I pursued a lot of extroverted activities. Well... To make a long story short, I ended up with severe burnout,

Very similar to the previous also clear introverted statement

when you have spent your whole life in your own little bubble

Same as above, "own little bubble" is past referenced and nostalgic so Si Child again

It seems I need a certain amount of dissociation,

"It seems" uncertainty and possibility intuition

I have very little need for external stimuli (a gross oversimplification, but I don't want to bore either of us with details).

Again classic Fe inferior questioning ones value to others, Fi Demon, devaluing self

substantial amount of members.

non specific, intuition, concrete people tend to be definitive in statements. My favourite saying is "I don't disagree"

I imagine that has also been an influence on our evolution.

Imagination is intuition, speculating on extroverted possibilities so Ne

it would make sense for females to have some children

same as previous

I think people subjected to abuse either come to think of abuse as the natural order, or as an injustice they are being subjected to

I think, logical conclusion If, or statement, Ti, it is also an extrapolated intuitive possibility so again Ne

If they look up to the person abusing them, and have few other role models, and are naturally inclined, they fall into the former camp.

same as previous If, and, and, they, and also extrapolating possibility so: TiNe

She is the victim, and shouldn't be expected to show empathy towards her bullies. Empathy is a luxury one can indulge in when one is safe.

Ethical statement Fe

How do you negotiate with such people?

Such People, impersonal. Fe

 

[Marbles]

Thank you, I really appreciate that you were so thorough, and I'm impressed! I have occasionally taken MBTI tests for the last 15 years, and I always turn out either INTP or INTJ. I'm glad to hear I am probably on the right forum.

Do you think one can be in the middle of an axis, or should the letters be thought of as strict dichotomies? I tend to think of myself as an INTX. I have taken some function tests, but the results have been scrambled mess, and haven't made me any wiser.

 

[dragula]

Thank you, I really appreciate that you were so thorough, and I'm impressed! I have occasionally taken MBTI tests for the last 15 years, and I always turn out either INTP or INTJ. I'm glad to hear I am probably on the right forum.

Do you think one can be in the middle of an axis, or should the letters be thought of as strict dichotomies? I tend to think of myself as an INTX. I have taken some function tests, but the results have been scrambled mess, and haven't made me any wiser.

I've done the official tests a couple times, so if you want I can help with your typing. There is a Dichotomy within the MBTI test (there's a MBTI 2 test for that specific reason on the official site), but that's a flaw of MBTI itself. I always work with the Jungian cognitive stack in that regard.

 

[Marbles]

So you don't think it makes sense to label anyone INTx, then? Because the function stack of INTJ and INTP are different? Ive never really subscribed to the cognitive functions, I tend to think of the eight letters as axes rather than dichotomies, akin to how the Big Five works, but I do think it's fun to speculate, and I keep an open mind, so... Yeah, I'd appreciate your thoughts.

 

[dragula]

MBTI does give a certain birds-eye perspective of what one's personality is. But it does not describe a personality accuratily. There's also a certain bias towards MBTI due to the overload of descriptions given to each MBTI type. (eg. both INTJ and INTP's are introverts; both prefer a logical approach to life, etc. etc.)

If we look at MBTI as a theory; it is based on a cognitive preference stack.

INTJ has Ni Te Fi Se
INTP has Ti Ne Si Fe

The way it works is that you have a primary cognitive function (INTP: Ti) and 2 supportive/auxiliary cognitive functions helping the primary function (INTP: Ne + Si). The fourth function is the inferior function. It is important but the least developed/understood by the type (INTP: Fe).

If we look at the way this is processed; INTP's work primarily with Introverted Thinking, eg. creating a decision model within themselves based on thought processes. This is supported by having a broad input of possibilities (Ne) and processed by a set of fixed and determined variables (Si). Fe works as a non-supportive function, eg. you use it outside of your processes, you have a certain sense of broader moral sense in regards to how people harmonize with eachother.

If you look at INTJ's, that's a completely different cognitive preference stack. Which also means a completely different way of thinking. Even if there are similarities in how we approach a situation (Intuition, Thinking, Introversion).

Every person uses all different cognitive functions, but does have a preference in which cognitive functions they use in their daily lives. You could see it as a software set that uses specific parts of the brain more consistently than other parts. We use all parts of our brain, but differ in the way/extent that we use these parts.

The big 5 personality model has overlapping traits but takes it from a different approach (a more dynamic model of one's personality).

 

[Marbles]

I'm sorry if I wasted your time; I know how the models work, roughly. I was just wondering whether you thought there is anything to the cognitive functions, and if so, why. Also, it seemed like you had some thoughts on how the model could be applied in my case. As I mentioned, I have taken some cognitive function stack test, and my preferences have not corresponded to any personality type. I think Ni and Ne were my strongest functions, closely followed by Te and Ti, then Fe, but they were all of similar strength.


Glad to see more cats in fancy headwear!

 

[dragula]

Glad to see more cats in fancy headwear!

Hehe, certainly!

Well, if we are putting MBTI types aside. If you wan't a description in how the jungian cognitive functions work, here a short summary.

Understanding the 8 Jungian Cognitive Processes (8 Functions)

INFORMATION-ACCESSING PROCESSES—Perception

Se Extraverted Sensing: Experiencing the immediate context; taking action in the physical world; noticing changes and opportunities for action; accumulating experiences; scanning for visible reactions and relevant data; recognizing "what is." Noticing what was available, trying on different items, and seeing how they look.

Si Introverted Sensing: Reviewing past experiences; "what is" evoking "what was"; seeking detailed information and links to what is known; recalling stored impressions; accumulating data; recognizing the way things have always been. Remembering the last time you wore a particular item or the last time you were at a similar event—maybe even remembering how you felt then.

Ne Extraverted iNtuiting: Interpreting situations and relationships; picking up meanings and interconnections; being drawn to change "what is" for "what could possibly be"; noticing what is not said and threads of meaning emerging across multiple contexts. Noticing the possible meanings of what you might wear: "Wearing this might communicate…"

Ni Introverted iNtuiting: Foreseeing implications and likely effects without external data; realizing "what will be"; conceptualizing new ways of seeing things; envisioning transformations; getting an image of profound meaning or far-reaching symbols. Envisioning yourself in an outfit or maybe envisioning yourself being a certain way.

ORGANIZING-EVALUATING PROCESSES—Judgment

Te Extraverted Thinking: Segmenting; organizing for efficiency; systematizing; applying logic; structuring; checking for consequences; monitoring for standards or specifications being met; setting boundaries, guidelines, and parameters; deciding if something is working or not. Sorting out different colors and styles; thinking about the consequences, as in "Since I have to stand all day…"

Ti Introverted Thinking: Analyzing; categorizing; evaluating according to principles and whether something fits the framework or model; figuring out the principles on which something works; checking for inconsistencies; clarifying definitions to get more precision. Analyzing your options using principles like comfort or "Red is a power color."

Fe Extraverted Feeling: Connecting; considering others and the group-organizing to meet their needs and honor their values and feelings; maintaining societal, organizational, or group values; adjusting to and accommodating others; deciding if something is appropriate or acceptable to others. Considering what would be appropriate for the situation: "One should or shouldn't wear…" or "People will think…"

Fi Introverted Feeling: Valuing; considering importance and worth; reviewing for incongruity; evaluating something based on the truths on which it is based; clarifying values to achieve accord; deciding if something is of significance and worth standing up for. Evaluating whether you like an outfit or not: "This outfit suits me and feels right."

 

[darque]

@Marbles, dragula
Agree with dragula's feedback also appreciate someone who respects the lowercase. Always happy to see someone speaking typology.

Do you think one can be in the middle of an axis, or should the letters be thought of as strict dichotomies?

The functions are very intertwined and we use what we need to get the job done. As we can switch between them quickly and we have short term memory to bridge, it can be a bit like animation where it looks seamless, but only a bit as our four functions work together in differing strengths dependant on circumstances to get the job done.

Obviously we need to make objective decisions which cannot be directly done by Ti for new circumstance as it is subjective; but we can repeat a logical sequence that we know works, using Ne as a pattern matching exercise to identify a previous scenario we have experienced that has sufficient similarities to give us confidence in outcome. I would say this is most of the time for INTP as we lack Se this is why we can get cut out by unexpected outcome, too much reliance on Si at the expense of Se.

However, Te is available to us as a shadow function, and as it is subjective in nature it can be the better choice. As it is a thinking function like our Primary, we can get pretty decent in its use and this developed skill will cause a bias in testing. If you want a better understanding of you extroverted capacity look at the ENTJ as their functional stack represents the INTPs shadow.

People at work would say I am ENTJ in meetings etc but it is draining. We can also reverse the sequence of the functions so my wife prefers me as the ESFJ supporter, but it is difficult to get into and remain in this state because it is a little too touchy feely for my liking.

If she is genuinely distressed and sitting on my lap, ie. close, intimate, and requiring careful Fe listening then no problems I can function this way as it is a very introverted interaction. If I detect that she is avoiding previously discussed plans then she will get ejected from the lap and must face the ENTJ barking orders lol.

There is also the inverse of the shadow which is the ISFP, this is our weeny bit of Se and Fi, I'm getting a lot better in the use of this functional stack since I have recognised its traits. A lot of my writing on this forum is from my ISFP. It has more of a creative flow using Fi & Ni to channel and focus into the world through Se & Te, hence why it is called the Artist.

However it is very fickle and slippery and prone to selfish Fi mistakes and requires a quiet and undisturbed environment to get into the groove. There is a lot on this forum already that I would have preferred not to write, or write differently, I've given poor Inexorable Username an earbashing and even though I worry, I know she can push back if she is offended.

But this is an excellent environment to hone these skills so I guess my subconscious decided to use you all as guinea pigs, sorry, I was not aware of that till now. So if that leads to some harsh feedback from people who I know can think for themselves then all the better for some painful Si learning.

One final note, INTP, ENTJ both feel very masculine and ESFJ, ISFP more feminine so probably represent how my Anima manifests.

Feel free to have a read of any of my posts dragula, I'm cringing here but feel free to provide feedback as it is clear you have a good handle on MBTI. I just checked your profile too, as I suspected INTJ... be gentle Te, I don't have a lot of reference points but I do have some. Out

 

[dragula]

@Marbles, dragula
Agree with dragula's feedback also appreciate someone who respects the lowercase. Always happy to see someone speaking typology.

Do you think one can be in the middle of an axis, or should the letters be thought of as strict dichotomies?

The functions are very intertwined and we use what we need to get the job done. As we can switch between them quickly and we have short term memory to bridge, it can be a bit like animation where it looks seamless, but only a bit as our four functions work together in differing strengths dependant on circumstances to get the job done.

Obviously we need to make objective decisions which cannot be directly done by Ti for new circumstance as it is subjective; but we can repeat a logical sequence that we know works, using Ne as a pattern matching exercise to identify a previous scenario we have experienced that has sufficient similarities to give us confidence in outcome. I would say this is most of the time for INTP as we lack Se this is why we can get cut out by unexpected outcome, too much reliance on Si at the expense of Se.

However, Te is available to us as a shadow function, and as it is subjective in nature it can be the better choice. As it is a thinking function like our Primary, we can get pretty decent in its use and this developed skill will cause a bias in testing. If you want a better understanding of you extroverted capacity look at the ENTJ as their functional stack represents the INTPs shadow.

People at work would say I am ENTJ in meetings etc but it is draining. We can also reverse the sequence of the functions so my wife prefers me as the ESFJ supporter, but it is difficult to get into and remain in this state because it is a little too touchy feely for my liking.

If she is genuinely distressed and sitting on my lap, ie. close, intimate, and requiring careful Fe listening then no problems I can function this way as it is a very introverted interaction. If I detect that she is avoiding previously discussed plans then she will get ejected from the lap and must face the ENTJ barking orders lol.

There is also the inverse of the shadow which is the ISFP, this is our weeny bit of Se and Fi, I'm getting a lot better in the use of this functional stack since I have recognised its traits. A lot of my writing on this forum is from my ISFP. It has more of a creative flow using Fi & Ni to channel and focus into the world through Se & Te, hence why it is called the Artist.

However it is very fickle and slippery and prone to selfish Fi mistakes and requires a quiet and undisturbed environment to get into the groove. There is a lot on this forum already that I would have preferred not to write, or write differently, I've given poor Inexorable Username an earbashing and even though I worry, I know she can push back if she is offended.

But this is an excellent environment to hone these skills so I guess my subconscious decided to use you all as guinea pigs, sorry, I was not aware of that till now. So if that leads to some harsh feedback from people who I know can think for themselves then all the better for some painful Si learning.

One final note, INTP, ENTJ both feel very masculine and ESFJ, ISFP more feminine so probably represent how my Anima manifests.

Feel free to have a read of any of my posts dragula, I'm cringing here but feel free to provide feedback as it is clear you have a good handle on MBTI. I just checked your profile too, as I suspected INTJ... be gentle Te, I don't have a lot of reference points but I do have some. Out

Will do, darque. Enjoyed the read (though I did not read it thoroughly yet), the function switching seems a nice skill to use. And the correlation between feminine and masculine types and the anima/animus is new to me, interested!

 

[dragula]

Reread your post, not much to add....just wondering how the hell you got so much control over your functions???

 

[darque]

@dragula
I'd argue that we use all the functions, just not evenly. Si cannot do what Se does, Ti is pragmatic by nature, Te affiliative. Ti does not have the direct connection to the exterior world so cannot achieve the level of objective analysis Te can.

I agree with scorpiomover in this quote:

Jung didn't say that Ni and Ne were 2 functions. He only said that there was ONE function, Intuition

There is really only 4 functions but each can be applied objectively and subjectively.
If you consider the rules that are in the types:

• functions must always be in alternating subjective / objective order
• functions must always be in a perceiving-judging pair
• inner join must be formed of the same type, either perceiving or judging

and consider these rules are wiring related; the brain has a capacity to modify its wiring so is more like a telephone exchange than a computer. Therefore the hardware constraints are likely the reason these rules limit the ways the functions can work together.

The outer join, ie. Ni-Se in INFJ, is an interesting exception as we do not appear to be able to make this connection, pity as it would unlock the ENTJ and therefore my quadra with it. I had a good think about why last night before I wrote this.

The only practical thing that came to mind was the dissimilar levels of maturity between the functions prevents viable communication; maybe someone can think of a better reason. Hopefully not, as that would mean over a few centuries of training ourselves in inferior functions we could unlock all 16 types, boss level!

But back to earth, you need to force the use of your inferior functions and use your shadow functions more intentionally which hopefully will reduce some of the negative influence on the ego. The primary and secondary can mask a lot of our shortfalls, with a quick dip into the inferiors to get a vital piece of perspective.

Try staying... meditating even, in FeSi, ie. considering the impact of your decisions on others, use it as the basis of decision making and remember the good outcomes in long term memory Si. It won't be comfortable, but exercise never is.

As a footnote the concept of the quadra and archetypes I use ie. Hero, Parent , Child etc. I have adopted mostly from CS Joseph; he has uploaded a lot of videos on YouTube that are worth a watch. However he is an ENTP so as an Ne dominant is more interested in the quickest way to the target, not accurately resolving the logic needed to get there.

As an Ni dominant yourself you may associate with that but he will rub your Te, Se the wrong way as he does not clearly define his own research from that which is referenced. He does use Linda Berens who's books I have and is the source of the quadra, but even her work is derivative. It is a tangled mess and I would appreciate any assistance in getting decent science into this space as there is too much Ne speculation.

Anyway, as a Ti dominant, I'm only interested in logic, measurable fact is optional. Hence you will see my posts trying to break that down to give me confidence there is structure underlying the statistical evidence, I can see bias in results as some proposals are not congruent with the overall proposals of the types and I want to remove that if possible.

Although I find CSJs work interesting and valuable; he deserves recognition. It is unstructured so difficult to reference and I don't want to expose people to hours of videos that are predominately chit chat and speculation when you break down transcripts.

I'd justifiably and willingly get eaten alive by a swarming mass of neurones, Matrix style if I started evangelising his work on this forum lol.

 

[dragula]

@dragula
I'd argue that we use all the functions, just not evenly. Si cannot do what Se does, Ti is pragmatic by nature, Te affiliative. Ti does not have the direct connection to the exterior world so cannot achieve the level of objective analysis Te can.

Yep, that was also Dario Nardi's intention (I think) when he was doing his research on the MBTI model / Cognitive functions. To map out which regions of the brains were actively used more / less frequently by each type.

There is really only 4 functions but each can be applied objectively and subjectively.
If you consider the rules that are in the types:

• functions must always be in alternating subjective / objective order
• functions must always be in a perceiving-judging pair
• inner join must be formed of the same type, either perceiving or judging

and consider these rules are wiring related; the brain has a capacity to modify its wiring so is more like a telephone exchange than a computer. Therefore the hardware constraints are likely the reason these rules limit the ways the functions can work together.

Did not approach it from that perspective, very interesting! If I recall correctly, the only officially accepted differentiation in psychology is Introversion / Extraversion.

Introversion and extraversion are psychological modes of adaptation. With introversion the movement of energy is toward the inner world. With extraversion interest is directed toward the outer world. In one case the subject (inner reality) and in the other the object (things and other people, outer reality) is of primary importance.

Introversion and Extraversion in Jungian Typology

The experience that not everyone functions in the same way has been the basis for numerous systems of typology. From earliest times attempts have been made to c

frithluton.com

On the adaptability of the brain as if it were a structure of telephone exchange / neural paths: yep

The outer join, ie. Ni-Se in INFJ, is an interesting exception as we do not appear to be able to make this connection, pity as it would unlock the ENTJ and therefore my quadra with it. I had a good think about why last night before I wrote this.

The only practical thing that came to mind was the dissimilar levels of maturity between the functions prevents viable communication; maybe someone can think of a better reason. Hopefully not, as that would mean over a few centuries of training ourselves in inferior functions we could unlock all 16 types, boss level!

Hmm could you go further on this? INTJ have Ni-Se outer join as well.

But back to earth, you need to force the use of your inferior functions and use your shadow functions more intentionally which hopefully will reduce some of the negative influence on the ego. The primary and secondary can mask a lot of our shortfalls, with a quick dip into the inferiors to get a vital piece of perspective.

Try staying... meditating even, in FeSi, ie. considering the impact of your decisions on others, use it as the basis of decision making and remember the good outcomes in long term memory Si. It won't be comfortable, but exercise never is.

As a footnote the concept of the quadra and archetypes I use ie. Hero, Parent , Child etc. I have adopted mostly from CS Joseph; he has uploaded a lot of videos on YouTube that are worth a watch. However he is an ENTP so as an Ne dominant is more interested in the quickest way to the target, not accurately resolving the logic needed to get there.

As an Ni dominant yourself you may associate with that but he will rub your Te, Se the wrong way as he does not clearly define his own research from that which is referenced. He does use Linda Berens who's books I have and is the source of the quadra, but even her work is derivative. It is a tangled mess and I would appreciate any assistance in getting decent science into this space as there is too much Ne speculation.

Currently I'm focusing on my concious / subconcious processes and how to detect / understand / decide on them. It's a rougher version of what you are doing. For CS Joseph's material: So the best way for me is to pick up the books?

Anyway, as a Ti dominant, I'm only interested in logic, measurable fact is optional. Hence you will see my posts trying to break that down to give me confidence there is structure underlying the statistical evidence, I can see bias in results as some proposals are not congruent with the overall proposals of the types and I want to remove that if possible.

Although I find CSJs work interesting and valuable; he deserves recognition. It is unstructured so difficult to reference and I don't want to expose people to hours of videos that are predominately chit chat and speculation when you break down transcripts.

I'd justifiably and willingly get eaten alive by a swarming mass of neurones, Matrix style if I started evangelising his work on this forum lol.

Understandable, though it is important for anyone/everyone to be open to anything (with a clear mind off course). Might give the Ne attempt a go.

 

[darque]

Hmm could you go further on this? INTJ have Ni-Se outer join as well.

Yes I was referring to the INTJ. The INTP has Ti-Fe

So you should have access to:
NiTe-FiSe (INTJ) Strategist - Ego, introverted thinking
NeTi-FeSi (ENTP) Visionary - Shadow - extroverted thinking
SeFi-TeNi (ESFP) Entertainer - extroverted feeling
SiFe-TiNe (ISFJ) Defender - introverted feeling

I'd be interested to see if you resonate with these types in certain circumstances. Say ENTP if you are performing an extroverted leadership role for example. ESFP in a social circumstance and ISFJ when providing emotional support for example.

I'm sure you would be using these types, perhaps not consciously.

Currently I'm focusing on my concious / subconcious processes and how to detect / understand / decide on them. It's a rougher version of what you are doing. For CS Joseph's material: So the best way for me is to pick up the books?

I'm also very interested in the extroverted functions at the moment, as I suspect they are subconscious to ensure they can remain objective. Possibly through a coupling to the external environment as they appear affiliative in nature. The may also be required to perform a pre-processing function for extroverted perceiving. As they are on an axis with the corresponding introverted judging function, Fi in your case, this provides a mechanism for control. I would be interested in your thoughts.

I'm certainly unaware of my Fe and my wife who is an ISTJ reports that thoughts just happen and she appears to be more aware of her feelings. She is an intelligent Clinical Psych and a very rational thinker, so I am intrigued how the mechanism is working. Ti is conscious and we have a running commentary in our heads all the time.

Understandable, though it is important for anyone/everyone to be open to anything (with a clear mind off course). Might give the Ne attempt a go.

Everyone here has been exceptionally accomodating and I have no problems sharing ideas. For my own benefit I would just prefer more concrete references to offer.

CS Joseph:
Website: https://www.csjoseph.life/home
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCELhS3lbQQ8GVa2UeoVXAkQ
INTJ Profile:

 

[dragula]

Yes I was referring to the INTJ. The INTP has Ti-Fe

So you should have access to:
NiTe-FiSe (INTJ) Strategist - Ego, introverted thinking
NeTi-FeSi (ENTP) Visionary - Shadow - extroverted thinking
SeFi-TeNi (ESFP) Entertainer - extroverted feeling
SiFe-TiNe (ISFJ) Defender - introverted feeling

I'd be interested to see if you resonate with these types in certain circumstances. Say ENTP if you are performing an extroverted leadership role for example. ESFP in a social circumstance and ISFJ when providing emotional support for example.

I'm sure you would be using these types, perhaps not consciously.

I guess some examples that I can straight out remember are:

INTJ - Most of the time, and when reading.
ENTP - When talking and theorising big picture things with people
ESFP - Playing the goofball friend, stupid jokes and automatic mode with rhythm stuff, or at extreme stress.
ISFJ - When someone I care enough about gets hurt or at stress.

It's a bit ... abstract though, I'm not really "fixed" on a specific type-mode, just behaving differently on circumstances. Eg. I'm not going to play the "Strategist" when someone needs emotional support.
But neither would I switch to any of the other roles either. I just shut off Te (I guess?) and focus more on Fi or even Fe. (Or in broader terms, sympathy / empathy). So Fi comes in the front of the functions.

Same with taking on a leadership role, I'll be switching to a focus of Te rather than switching to ENTP (pushing my vision more further to the group, giving suggestions or orders where needed, like an ENTJ so more a Te - Ni switch). I can do it, but it is energy draining for me, as a "Strategist" NiTe.

Same with exercise / working with tools / ..., I'll switch up to Se and use that to my advantage.

So It's more or less: To use what am I most used to in my function stack: Ni Te Fi Se , and use each of these on a specific situation, while using the others (+ 4 other / shadow functions in some extent) as supportive functions.

 

[dragula]

CS Joseph:
Website: https://www.csjoseph.life/home
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCELhS3lbQQ8GVa2UeoVXAkQ
INTJ Profile:

Aah, that guy, I thought he was an INTJ at first. But he went very far with his theoretical/drawing construction on each type, I stopped watching after a while lol. I'll give it a retry. Thanks!

Edit: , holy shit...haha, yep he's ENTP. He's right though on the MBTI system.

 

[scorpiomover]

and consider these rules are wiring related; the brain has a capacity to modify its wiring so is more like a telephone exchange than a computer. Therefore the hardware constraints are likely the reason these rules limit the ways the functions can work together.

How right you are.

We have a sympathetic nervous system and a parasympathetic nervous system. The sympathetic nervous system reacts very quickly to changes in the environment, and has been used as the explanation for the fight/flight/freeze instinct.

The parasympathetic nervous system mulls over things for a very long time before coming to answers.

They have been compared to the behaviour of extroverts and introverts, as if the sympathetic nervous system accounts for extroversion, and the parasympathetic nervous system accounts for introversion.

But the extent of this didn't really hit me until I saw diagrams like these.

They are from the wiki article on the Autonomic nervous system. They're not the exact diagrams that I saw. But they give you an idea:

Here's a diagram of the symathetic nervous system:

Now here's a diagram of the parasympathetic nervous system:

We actually have TWO sets of nerve connections on the spinal cord!

TWO SETS OF NERVES!

Think of the nerves as sending information down wires like in a telephone exchange, exactly as you described.

Well, we have 2 parallel sets of wires in that exchange, like 2 telephone exchanges that connect to the same phones. But they exist in parallel to each other.

As a result, if you're sending/receiving signals along the extraverted SNS, the intraverted PNS is free to also send/receive other signals.

So you can send/receive an extraverted function, and send/receive an intraverted function, simultaneously.

But obviously, if you try to send 2 different types of data along the same wires simultaneously, the signals could get mixed up. You could get severe signal corruption.

So probably, if you're using Ne, you can't also use Se at the same time, because you'd be using the same circuit for 2 different functions.

But you could use Ne and Si now, and then Se and Ni at another time.

There's probably a similar connection between judging functions.

Probably, you could use Ne and Te at the same time, as one is a perceiving function and the other is a judging function and so the signal types are different. But I'd imagine that would be difficult.

Also, using Ne & Si simultaneously, would be very difficult, as they're both sending the same types of data. So you'd be receiving similar types of data into the brain in general.

It would probably be much easier to use one circuit for perceiving and the other for judging, such as using Ne and Ti simultaneously, or Ne and Fi.

But obviously, you'd probably end up getting better at one set, than the other, like how people have a favourite hand. So most of the time, you'd use Ne & Si. But occasionally you could use Se & Ni. However, you probably wouldn't be nearly as skillful or as fast with Se & Ni, because it's not something that you're used to, much as you can probably write with your other hand, but either fast and unintelligibly, or slowly but not that great.

Over time, you'd probably get used to using one extravertd function and one intraverted function, simultaneously, very, very fast, one of which would be a perceiving function and one a judging function.

So you'd probably develop one extraverted function, and one intraverted function, one of which would be a perceiving function and one a judging function, as your regular way of thinking.

The other patterns would develop as well, but less so.

I'm guessing, that you'd also develop use of one perceiving function more (N/S), one judging function more (T/F), and one nervous system more (E/I).

There's also the enteric nervous system, which deals with the gastro-intestinal tract, and is said to act as a second brain. But to send/receive messages elsewhere via the spinal cord, it still relies on the SNS and the PNS. It might explain how some people are an X. But I just saw the ENS. So I need to think on that one.

Well, that's my idea, based on those diagrams. I think it explains a lot.

 

[darque]

Aah, that guy,

Yes, I think that sums it up. I also stopped watching many of his videos as they got more esoteric, his focus is increasingly on popular topics like typing celebrities etc. which do not interest me, although his approach can be useful. I do still review his typing videos if I need to get into the mindset of a type I am not familiar with.

I think it was Linda Berens that said she needs to embody a type, get into the role before she can properly understand them and this is what I was referring to in my earlier posts. I'm not saying we can be the other types per se but can use these as models for developing inferior functions.

My last project was a building & equipment package of works. I'm not a civil engineer by any stretch of the imagination and could not tackle a bridge, but I understand enough about commercial building; my brother is an architectural designer; to manage a sizeable piece of work and I lean on the civil engineers around me for help with specifics.

I also look at the functional stack as a set. We cannot be Ti & Te at the same time because we are using the same hardware and it is imperative that we maintain separation between subjective and objective experience. Conditions like schizophrenia seem to break this separation and severe disfunction is the result.

The axis TiFe and TeFi also appear to be rigidly fixed and I suspect this is due to hemispherical association of the functions, I have / am discussing / exploring this in other posts. It appears that to maintain stability we need an extroverted objective affiliative perspective and an introverted subjective pragmatic perspective at the same time, which is logical.

So if we need to use a shadow function we must flip all functions to ensure the rules, or wiring, of our preferred stack to suit, so if you need Ti, this also comes with Fe.

As conscious awareness can only be focused on one of the functions at a time, we need a subconscious system to manage that which we are not consciously aware of, but need, to alert us if danger presents.

So, I see the functional stack more as a system than individually accessible functions as it is an all or none scenario. As the functional stack has the order of precedence hard wired, it is necessary to reverse the stack to give priority to a tertiary or inferior function.

As an analogy, think of a hydraulic accumulator, gear pump/motor and actuator. We can rotate the pump to extend the actuator or we can push on the actuator to rotate the pump (as a motor). The accumulator is reacting both ways to compensate. We cannot adjust the accumulator pressure without doing one of those two actions.

So, I see the functional stacks more as 16 viable variants for combining the available human hardware that gets limited to 4, possibly through environmental influence in the first few years of psychological development which allows for social cohesion and accounts for cultural differences. The rarer types giving the uncertainty factor to prevent instability in a population.

There's also the enteric nervous system, which deals with the gastro-intestinal tract, and is said to act as a second brain.

The ENS is an interesting system too, when reading: The Mind-Gut Connection, Emeran Mayer. He discussed that our gut bacteria is seeded from the vaginal wall during birthing and there is a distinct signature within different cultures. If our diet is changed, the bacteria also modify but never completely and this signature is maintained in part, even if we have spent many years in a different culture to where we were born.

The ENS has solid links to many mood conditions like depression and anxiety; I've read into this quite a bit as my wife has a large number of food intolerances and also a generalised anxiety condition.

This was incongruent information as mood and ENS do not present an immediate logical reason to be related. However it struck me that this could provide a level of pre-programming and could account for cultural mood preferences, laid back or more excitable for example. So if the mother is in a dangerous environment, the child is provided a higher anxiety quotient to ensure they can adapt.

In a similar way, the reduction of types from 16 to 4 could be through some early wiring as the child explores its cognitive environment. Developmental psychology is very interesting as the impact of an emotionally absent mother, say from extreme postnatal depression, is very destructive on the child's psychological development and in many ways not recoverable with lifelong issues of feeling a lack of love etc.

As such, it is critical that the child has a level of synchronicity with its mother and this, along with the ENS could be part of this initial environmental programming to ensure the child is behaving in a way that is acceptable with their parents.

Jordan Peterson has theorised that the reason why women rate higher on the neuroticism scale when taking the big 5 personality test is not for their benefit, but an increase level of anxiety in the mother, benefits the survival of the child. He is an INTP by the way and his lectures are exceptional.

Statements like the previous is why he has upset a lot of women which is a classic INTP, too literal and rub people up the wrong way issue. His work is not misogynistic in any way and extends Jung's archetypical representations and how these were the basis of mythological and biblical stories. I can suggest some good summaries if you wish.

His type was one of the few CS Josephs celebrity typing exercises that added value for me, another is Elon Musk, also an INTP. Someone should drag them both here...

Another person who's videos I like, is Michael Pierce. He is an INFJ who stays a lot stricter to MBTI and I find his re-visited types videos good summaries.

 

[scorpiomover]

We cannot be Ti & Te at the same time because we are using the same hardware and it is imperative that we maintain separation between subjective and objective experience. Conditions like schizophrenia seem to break this separation and severe disfunction is the result.

based on my prior post, I think the difficulty is more as follows:

The body seems to be very focussed on homeostasis. E.G. people trying to lose weight and dieting, tend to suffer from a yo-yo effect. When they're on the diet, they lose weight. But as soon as they stop dieting, they return quickly back to the same weight, and then stay there.

Now, before they went on the diet, they retained the same weight. So they are eating enough to maintain their current weight, but no more, i.e. their calorie intake matches their calorie expenditure.

When they go on a diet, they reduce their calorie intake, but maintain the same level of behaviour, and thus the same level of calorie expenditure. So now, the body's calorie intake is lower than its calorie expenditure. Hence, they use more calories than they eat. So they lose weight.

So logically, we'd expect that when they're off the diet, they return to their regular level of calorie intake, that matches their level of calorie expenditure. So they should maintain the new weight.

But they usually return to the old weight.

Now, in order to do that, they'd have to be eating more than they use. So perhaps their subconscious felt starved, and now subconsciously makes them eat more, without realising. So they eat more than they use, and so start gaining weight.

But then why doesn't the body keep gaining weight? Why does the body gain weight, but then stop at the old weight? It's as if they start eating more after the diet, but as soon as they reach their old weight, they reduce their eating back to the old eating habits where their calorie intake matched their calorie expenditure.

This is particularly confusing, becuase the person isn't aware of what they're doing to gain the weight and then stop at the old weight.

So clearly, the subconscious is making them eat more without realising, enough to gain more weight when they are below the old weight, but then when they reach their old weight, the subconscious again makes them reduce their eating habits to just enough to balance as much as they use.

So the body seems to have a lot of focus on maintaining homeostasis as much as possible.

Now, taking that into account, we have 2 forms of homeostasis that would be necessary:

1) Maintaining homeostasis with the external environment. If the weather is hotter, and the person's body doesn't cool the body, then the body will heat up to heat death.

This corresponds with the fight/flight/freeze instinct of the SNS, as that responds to changing threats from the external environment. This is the extroverted system.

2) Maintaining homeostasis with the internal environment. If the body is constantly adapting to changing weather patterns, the body's systems will be going up and down like a yo-yo, and there will be no internal stability. The organs will be starting up and shutting down all over the place. That kind of constant change puts a major stress on biological systems, and that wears them out very quickly.

So the internal homeostasis ensures that the changes to match the external environment are done in a gradual manner, that keep the body from experiencing too much stress. They also can ensure that the person's personal goals are kept consistent, so the person can achieve long-term objectives.

This corresponds with the the PNS. This is the introverted system.

So the SNS = extroversion = external homeostasis.
The PNS = introversion = internal homeostasis.

They are 2 different directions, one oriented towards keeping the body/brain in balance with the external environment, including people around you, the other oriented towards keeping the body/brain in balance with the current internal environment, such as one's current thoughts, and long-term personal goals.

So Ti and Te would be thinking working inwards and outwards, which would seriously conflict and probably screw up what the other is doing.

 

[darque]

I appreciate your detailed posts scorpiomover. I'm chewing on them. I'm not as familiar as I need to be with the ANS to understand the current state of scientific agreement on these systems ie. the difference in function, beyond the overall SNS as the fight or flight and the PNS for calming. They are oddly different control strategies and the brainstem is the source of many basic awareness and arousal nuclei, including many pointers to this area being critical for consciousness so this makes sense. It is also clearly essential that the PNS remains under tight conscious control, and also that the SNS uses the nuclei outside the Central Nervous System (CNS) to ensure automated control.

Introverted / extroverted are perspectives of the subjective self and objective world. As such, having seperate physical systems for each does not appear as necessary as they are purely abstract concepts, not systems or functions per se. However the brain does like to keep everything hardwired into seperate systems and minimises the use of field devices (nuclei) where possible, KISS principle I guess.

Again this makes the SNS such an oddity as it is a brazen excessive use of nuclei for what should be core CNS function and the architecture makes it prone to ringing and self excitation so it is a big element in generalised anxiety. I will let my subconscious chew on this and come back to you if any more insight appears.

The body seems to be very focussed on homeostasis.

Agree with much of your post on homeostasis. I see these systems as mostly automated reaction systems similar to ballbots or cubli. It could be that the SNS is intentionally a ringing system to maintain homeostasis and the PNS is a corrective system for longer term modification.

So Ti and Te would be thinking working inwards and outwards, which would seriously conflict and probably screw up what the other is doing.

Agree, however I look at the judging functions more mathematically, such as plus, minus, divide and multiply. As such, they are seperate to the experiences they act on and could even be exposing the fundamentals of neurological connectivity. However, we agree that they must be interlocked to prevent crossover between the subjective and objective perspectives so control gets increasingly complex to manage the more locations control needs to be performed.

Good dialog scorpiomover, it has given me a lot to think about and research. I'm sure we will be back in this space again. I also have another discussion ongoing regarding lateralisation of the hemispheres and will tag you in this.

 

[scorpiomover]

I'm not as familiar as I need to be with the ANS to understand the current state of scientific agreement on these systems ie. the difference in function, beyond the overall SNS as the fight or flight and the PNS for calming. They are oddly different control strategies and the brainstem is the source of many basic awareness and arousal nuclei, including many pointers to this area being critical for consciousness so this makes sense. It is also clearly essential that the PNS remains under tight conscious control, and also that the SNS uses the nuclei outside the Central Nervous System (CNS) to ensure automated control.

Again this makes the SNS such an oddity as it is a brazen excessive use of nuclei for what should be core CNS function and the architecture makes it prone to ringing and self excitation so it is a big element in generalised anxiety. I will let my subconscious chew on this and come back to you if any more insight appears.

I used to think that the conscious was the big thing and the subconscious was just an add-on, But then I watched a science documentary that said that scientists had studied how much of the brain's processing is used for the conscious and the subconscious. Some scientists said that if the brain's processing was an A4 piece of paper, then the conscious was the top line and the subconscious was everything else. Others said that conscious was a dot and the subconscious was the rest.

Either way, the subconscious does 90% of the brain's processing. So 90% of the cognitive processing required to keep humans alive, healthy and successful, is done by the subconscious.

So the PNS might be under conscious control. But only because the subconscious is the main thing. If the conscious shuts down, people go to sleep. If the subconscious shuts down, the body stops.

Introverted / extroverted are perspectives of the subjective self and objective world. As such, having seperate physical systems for each does not appear as necessary as they are purely abstract concepts, not systems or functions per se.

You can divide things into all sorts of ways. So why should the I/E difference be anything more or less than any other invented distinction? So either I/E is yet another imaginary difference that has no real effect, or it does have a real effect.


Subjective/objective is Jung's distinction between I/E, which I heartily like and agree with.

Jung's Chapter X is completely devoid of any biological descriptions. So I suspect that he wasn't even considering if psychological types had anything to do with biological types. These were correlations that he recognised in his patients, that happened to match similarly to concepts in philosophy that he was familiar with.

But if there is a biological mechanism, then it could be that Jung misidentified E/I as objective/subjective.

So here's my idea of E/I:
1) Jung: objective/subjective.
2) Myers: more comfortable/energised by social/solitary activities.
3) Me: SNS/PNS.

They're all following a similar theme.

Agree with much of your post on homeostasis. I see these systems as mostly automated reaction systems similar to ballbots or cubli.

Love the video. Got to watch it again and study it in more detail.

It could be that the SNS is intentionally a ringing system to maintain homeostasis and the PNS is a corrective system for longer term modification.

That's how I see it. 20 minutes underwater without oxygen, and a human is probably dead. Not very long.

Contrary to popular beliefs, human tolerance for atmospheric, pressure, temperature and pH changes are extremely low compared to the variances in the universe, and even for the Earth itself, especially considering it's entire lifespan of over a billion years of life. All sorts of things can kill a human.

We just eliminated and outlawed 99% of them in cities. So really, a city is like a sterilised lab in many ways.

But when humans evolved, there were no cities. Lots of things could kill. So reacting to one's external environment to prevent death, was vital for survival.

Most likely, the SNS developed first. Then the PNS for long-term consistency and behaviour modification.

I can give you an example of internal consistency. When I learned to drive, my driving instructor gave me some rules. Then when we covered roundabouts, he gave me different rules. I found that when I was focussing on the rules for roundabouts, I was ignoring all the other, much more important rules. So I told him that I understand that he was right, but that right now, I couldn't act on them, not until I'd integrated the rules for roundabouts with everything else he'd taught me. Once I'd figured that out a few weeks later, roundabouts were a doddle.

Now, that's important. But taking a roundabout safely is not nearly as important as breathing.

Good dialog scorpiomover, it has given me a lot to think about and research. I'm sure we will be back in this space again. I also have another discussion ongoing regarding lateralisation of the hemispheres and will tag you in this.

Thanks.