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Old 30th-October-2012, 07:07 AM   #1
Radiant Shadow
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Default A wanderer's greetings

Greetings INTPf.

Traveling INFJ here. The forum dedicated to us, despite its fluffy appearance, is sparsely decorated. That may be a function of forums in general though, as they are like campfires: places for people to come and gather, sharing their tales and getting some in return, before moving on with their journey. Because after a while, the themes become common and worn, endlessly recycled like the many tragedies of human history. So from time to time, it pays to wander roads less traveled by - the quest for color never quite satisfied. But I digress.

I have had the distinct pleasure of befriending two INTPs and thought a few more couldn't hurt. To say the least, INTP humor is hilarious and analytical skills strong. Wit and laughter are always in short supply -- what are we but liquid stardust, anyway? -- and critical analysis/exploration is seriously needed with the advent of modern technology and science.

My tendency to lurk usually overpowers the tendency to engage, so genuine contributions to this forum will be rare. I suppose that makes me a parasite?

Bemused,

R.S
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Old 30th-October-2012, 04:38 PM   #2
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Welcome to the Dark Castle, Radiant Shadow. It's a shame about not posting though.
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Old 30th-October-2012, 04:59 PM   #3
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Hello there R.S., cheers for your first post! Yay!


Spoiler:
in my country...R.S. means hospital.
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Old 31st-October-2012, 03:47 AM   #4
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Default Re: A wanderer's greetings

Thank you for the welcome, [MENTION=1005]Fukyo[/MENTION] and [MENTION=6578]catatonic[/MENTION].

Most of what I have to say is metaphoric and psychological, not very well suited for the heated technical debates that seem popular here. Perhaps I will contribute more when I have acquired a little more knowledge. My academic background is mostly self-taught (read: lots of classic literature and introductory textbooks to psychology, history, and politics) and I have a pathetically small understanding of natural sciences and mathematics. I.e, On The Origin of Species when I was 14 and Godel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid at 17.

(Hehe, I remember feeling amused at the end of OtOoS that Darwin did not actually propose how life originated -- just how it changes over time.)
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Old 31st-October-2012, 04:48 AM   #5
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Default Re: A wanderer's greetings

The amount of fluff to non-fluff in your post has the same relationship that the irrationals have to the rationals in the real numbers.

Since you know about Godel, maybe this example will make more sense: the amount of fluff to non-fluff in your post has the same relationship that true statements have to provable statements in Godels proof.
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Old 31st-October-2012, 07:04 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Radiant Shadow View Post
Most of what I have to say is metaphoric and psychological, not very well suited for the heated technical debates that seem popular here. Perhaps I will contribute more when I have acquired a little more knowledge.

If you feel you can contribute by stepping out of the shadows, don't hesitate. Reading your intro admittedly has me craving more because it's very well-written compared to a lot of things here. Even if you're not out for debate, you'd fit into the P&F subforum, IMO.

My academic background is mostly self-taught (read: lots of classic literature and introductory textbooks to psychology, history, and politics) and I have a pathetically small understanding of natural sciences and mathematics. I.e, On The Origin of Species when I was 14 and Godel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid at 17.

As for knowledge in general: Even if you're not 100% sure of something to discuss, this is probably the best place I can think of to have knowledge presented to you. From there you can accept or reject as you see fit. It can be viewed as important interaction for both parties in respect to presentation and compatibility with larger constructs.

(Hehe, I remember feeling amused at the end of OtOoS that Darwin did not actually propose how life originated -- just how it changes over time.)

^You already know more about evolution than ~95% of the population, FYI.
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Old 2nd-November-2012, 05:15 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by DeadonDreaming View Post
The amount of fluff to non-fluff in your post has the same relationship that the irrationals have to the rationals in the real numbers.

Since you know about Godel, maybe this example will make more sense: the amount of fluff to non-fluff in your post has the same relationship that true statements have to provable statements in Godels proof.

Your analogy is slightly vague to me. The details of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem are foggy, I read that book two years ago.

1) If there are more true statements than provable statements, then I could interpret it as being called verbose.

2) If you refer to qualitate vs. quantitative approaches to investigation, it could read as an acknowledgement of subjective wisdom.

Which, if either, do you mean?


Anyway, it is funny you mention Godel and the limits of human knowledge. I just finished watching the film Memento by Christopher Nolen; if you haven't seen it, it's a case study on the faults of memory and power of self-deception, basically asking "How do you know what you know?" from a psychological perspective. The answer, according to Nolen, turns out to be like a card game: weighing possibility against probability before calling an opponent's bluff. In other words, there will always be a kernel of doubt but you have to learn to trust the integrity of empirical investigation.

Alternatively, there's this song:
" title="YouTube" target="_blank">YouTube

...Well. That branched out quickly!


@thehabitatdoctor

Writing is a vital and undervalued skill, IMO. It's an act of articulation, personality, order, and insight. Effective and clear communication is really important in a world of billions of small universes overlapping with each other. Things get lose in translation and people get angry over nothing -- the phrase "The world is divided between peasants and kings, but the truth is we're all looking for the same thing" comes to mind. But that's my Fe talking.

I'll check out the Philosophy and Faith subforum. I'm hoping there aren't too many God-related threads, though; they frequent boards of intelligent folks, despite being out of range.

Knowledge. Yeah, that is one of the things that drew me here from the INTPs I know in real life, and is the point of my campfire analogy in the OP. A cursory glance around the forum gives the impression that there are at least a few experts in various fields. I'm definitely looking forward to my time here.
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Old 2nd-November-2012, 05:38 PM   #8
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Hi. Welcome. It seems a few neurons linger in your brain. I used to have one occupant, but am now struggling from economical stress due to vacancy.

If your place should be overcrowded, feel free to send some my way any day.
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Old 2nd-November-2012, 07:37 PM   #9
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Default Re: A wanderer's greetings

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T

(Hehe, I remember feeling amused at the end of OtOoS that Darwin did not actually propose how life originated -- just how it changes over time.)
Well, I would say the title says nothing about how life originated, but species, which, depending on your definition of that, he did quite remarkably.

I have a few close INFJ friends - they tend to have a higher degree of tolerance for my inability to concern myself with their persistent feelings. It works.

Welcome, by the way.
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Old 2nd-November-2012, 08:48 PM   #10
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Well, I would say the title says nothing about how life originated, but species, which, depending on your definition of that, he did quite remarkably.

I have a few close INFJ friends - they tend to have a higher degree of tolerance for my inability to concern myself with their persistent feelings. It works.

Welcome, by the way.
Thank you for the welcome.

Oh, I wasn't knocking Darwin at all, the man was brilliant and world-changing. "The Origin of Species" implies a beginning point for all life that was never discussed (rightfully so at the time). Accordingly, I was amused that the title of such an influential book - the source of much heated debate even many years later - did not literally match its contents. In fact, if one reads between the lines, I was gently ribbing many people who reference the book as an explanation of life's origin. Knowing without understanding, unthinking allegiance. I imagine that is something many people on this forum resent, no?

I have never heard of a friendship whose only reference is tolerance! (Jesting, jesting, please don't hurt me.) Here's a news flash: not all INFJs are irrational saps. Those that are likely have never been put in a stressing enough situation to develop their tertiary and inferior functions (Ti and Se). I myself have little in common with say, the folks on INFJf. There is variance within all types.

To extend that note, emotions are not something to be avoided. They are just a diagnostic: a heads-up from the primal, instinctual part of your brain to pay attention, if you will. In many respects, emotions are a source of human action, a way of expressing universal needs based on environmental feedback (i.e, Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs). They are often described as a river one rides toward some goal; however, as you noted, that's incomplete. Every river has a course it follows, an order to its construction. That is logic, the complement to emotion. Some people have weak logic and run all over everywhere, never really reaching where they want to go; others have too little emotion and are a straight line without any adventure, finding their river's hollow end too quickly.

That came out a little longer than I intended. My bad.

(Looking at this thread, it seems I have a propensity for lecture. Heh. How typical.)
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Old 2nd-November-2012, 09:03 PM   #11
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Quote:
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Hi. Welcome. It seems a few neurons linger in your brain. I used to have one occupant, but am now struggling from economical stress due to vacancy.

If your place should be overcrowded, feel free to send some my way any day.
Hahahaha! I really don't know what you're talking about. I'm a poor fool, a second-hand miser! It may be better to combine our neurons into some freakish Frankensteinian amalgamation ^.^
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Old 2nd-November-2012, 09:45 PM   #12
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Thank you for the welcome.

Oh, I wasn't knocking Darwin at all, the man was brilliant and world-changing. "The Origin of Species" implies a beginning point for all life that was never discussed (rightfully so at the time).

Perhaps, I can see that point, but again, I respectfully disagree. But, I am a little literal sometimes so when I read "species" I don't necessarily infer "beginning point for all life". Although... I can see taken as a whole, how it might be construed as such, I guess - Like, origin of species in general, (how species, all of them, came into existence) not origin of species (how change over time created the variety of organisms we see in the world today.)

In fact, if one reads between the lines, I was gently ribbing many people who reference the book as an explanation of life's origin. Knowing without understanding, unthinking allegiance. I imagine that is something many people on this forum resent, no?
---Don't even get me started.

I have never heard of a friendship whose only reference is tolerance! (Jesting, jesting, please don't hurt me.) Here's a news flash: not all INFJs are irrational saps. Those that are likely have never been put in a stressing enough situation to develop their tertiary and inferior functions (Ti and Se). I myself have little in common with say, the folks on INFJf. There is variance within all types.

---Oh, absolutely. I love and respect my INFJ friends - and I mean no condescension with emotion. I find them (these friends), intriguingly passionate. They help me see the world through a different lens, one that I definitely appreciate.

--After getting to slowly understand a bit more of the MBTI I started to wonder why it was that most of my friends were these rarer types (INFP, INFJ), I figure we must each amuse each in some way, and help expand our view and appreciation on life.

-- I also know several INFJs that drive me bonkers so variance is definitely understood.

To extend that note, emotions are not something to be avoided. They are just a diagnostic: a heads-up from the primal, instinctual part of your brain to pay attention, if you will. In many respects, emotions are a source of human action, a way of expressing universal needs based on environmental feedback (i.e, Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs). They are often described as a river one rides toward some goal; however, as you noted, that's incomplete. Every river has a course it follows, an order to its construction. That is logic, the complement to emotion. Some people have weak logic and run all over everywhere, never really reaching where they want to go; others have too little emotion and are a straight line without any adventure, finding their river's hollow end too quickly.

That came out a little longer than I intended. My bad.

--No worries. Nicely stated. Luckily I found someone who forces a little adventure in my life, or certainly I'd be a straight liner.

(Looking at this thread, it seems I have a propensity for lecture. Heh. How typical.)
Good stories are just interesting lectures. I'm down with that.
I'm just here for the ride - happy to find others on their own journeys

(Edit note) clearly I'm not a forum junky - I haven't yet learned appropriate etiquette on quoting multiples... apologies...

Last edited by Silphiums; 2nd-November-2012 at 09:48 PM. Reason: Don't know how to multiple quote :(
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Old 2nd-November-2012, 11:53 PM   #13
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Greetings INTPf.

Traveling INFJ here. The forum dedicated to us, despite its fluffy appearance, is sparsely decorated. That may be a function of forums in general though, as they are like campfires: places for people to come and gather, sharing their tales and getting some in return, before moving on with their journey. Because after a while, the themes become common and worn, endlessly recycled like the many tragedies of human history. So from time to time, it pays to wander roads less traveled by - the quest for color never quite satisfied. But I digress.

I have had the distinct pleasure of befriending two INTPs and thought a few more couldn't hurt. To say the least, INTP humor is hilarious and analytical skills strong. Wit and laughter are always in short supply -- what are we but liquid stardust, anyway? -- and critical analysis/exploration is seriously needed with the advent of modern technology and science.

My tendency to lurk usually overpowers the tendency to engage, so genuine contributions to this forum will be rare. I suppose that makes me a parasite?

Bemused,

R.S
Have you considered becoming a writer? I'd love to read your fiction or history: your heart's warm glow is palpable. Feel free to post infrequently if you can maintain such quality, for it'll be well worth the wait.

And just because I like to write as well, here's an in-universe greeting to our forum based on your OP. Take what I say with a grain of salt, but enjoy it nonetheless.

You find yourself standing in the atrium of a great castle. A mosaic of light streams through stained glass windows bearing the visages of such great men as Socrates, Plato, Godel, Picasso, and Nietszche and creates bright, dappled pools the dim vastness. Two white-bearded old men argue unintelligibly over what looks like calculus, but could very well be abstract modern art. A cloaked figure emerges from the shadows, bearing a leather satchel with your name.

"Hail, traveler, and welcome to our quiet halls. You'll find a room down five doors and on your left-- mind the cobblestone floors, it's easy to stub your toe. The nights are a bit cold, drafty, and damp, but there's plenty of hot, crispy, succulent roast boar and cold, sweet, clear mead to wash it down. And, if I may be so bold, I recommend that someone with such empathy head down to our ramshackle mental hospital, whose creaky, scream-filled halls can be entered herein: http://intpforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=12. We've too many assaulting the Absurd, and not enough hands to treat them. Even if you'd rather not help, you'd likely find the cases fascinating."

With a gentle nod and the wink of an eye, he hands you the satchel. Therein you find your room keys, cold, slippery slices of partridge carefully wrapped in parchment paper, a small, hearty loaf of bread, and a frosty glass bottle of water from the castle's spring.

"Just in case you decide to leave, let this be a gift from our order" interrupts the figure "Oh, and do dig deeper, you'll be pleasantly surprised."

Reaching further into the satchel's murky depths, you find a scroll on which is written in small, neat script, an oath:

The Thinker's Creed

In brightest day,
In darkest night
No falsehood shall escape my sight
Let those who worship Madness' might
Beware my power,
Pure logic's light!


The cloaked figure touches your shoulder and asks:

"Swear you this oath? For only through it shall you find Truth, be it in the Void or another code. In times of darkness, let it be your candle."

The rest of the story, O traveler, is up to you.

-Duxwing
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Old 5th-November-2012, 02:38 PM   #14
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Default Re: A wanderer's greetings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiant Shadow View Post
Writing is a vital and undervalued skill, IMO. It's an act of articulation, personality, order, and insight. Effective and clear communication is really important in a world of billions of small universes overlapping with each other. Things get lose in translation and people get angry over nothing -- the phrase "The world is divided between peasants and kings, but the truth is we're all looking for the same thing" comes to mind. But that's my Fe talking.

I'll check out the Philosophy and Faith subforum. I'm hoping there aren't too many God-related threads, though; they frequent boards of intelligent folks, despite being out of range. There are a lot of good OPs, but they sometimes tend to devolve into God debates because that's just what many are used to. (Which is exactly why fresh blood is needed).

Knowledge. Yeah, that is one of the things that drew me here from the INTPs I know in real life, and is the point of my campfire analogy in the OP. A cursory glance around the forum gives the impression that there are at least a few experts in various fields. I'm definitely looking forward to my time here.
Also, now that the forum's back I can finally point out that typo. I can be an ass like that...

Spoiler:
But it really stems from insecurity in my own articulation capacity, so I've got to poke while I can.
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Old 5th-November-2012, 02:42 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Radiant Shadow View Post
To extend that note, emotions are not something to be avoided. They are just a diagnostic: a heads-up from the primal, instinctual part of your brain to pay attention, if you will. In many respects, emotions are a source of human action, a way of expressing universal needs based on environmental feedback (i.e, Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs). They are often described as a river one rides toward some goal; however, as you noted, that's incomplete. Every river has a course it follows, an order to its construction. That is logic, the complement to emotion. Some people have weak logic and run all over everywhere, never really reaching where they want to go; others have too little emotion and are a straight line without any adventure, finding their river's hollow end too quickly.
^Yeah, you need to stick around.
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Old 5th-November-2012, 04:41 PM   #16
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Also, now that the forum's back I can finally point out that typo. I can be an ass like that...

Spoiler:
But it really stems from insecurity in my own articulation capacity, so I've got to poke while I can.
Bahahaha! Thanks for pointing that out, self-deprecating irony = win.

Imo, the psychological basis for supernatural belief would be more interesting than whether such belief is valid.

Did the forum get haxxed, by the way?
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Old 5th-November-2012, 05:11 PM   #17
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Bahahaha! Thanks for pointing that out, self-deprecating irony = win.

Imo, the psychological basis for supernatural belief would be more interesting than whether such belief is valid. Eh, start a thread. Things haven't been back online for awhile, but hopefully @Da_Blob and others will return soon.

Did the forum get haxxed, by the way?
Yes, and yes. It doesn't happen very often (~1-2x a year I think), but there are some random oddballs and disgruntled/bored former members out there with the skillset to do so.
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Old 5th-November-2012, 06:07 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duxwing View Post
Spoiler:
Have you considered becoming a writer? I'd love to read your fiction or history: your heart's warm glow is palpable. Feel free to post infrequently if you can maintain such quality, for it'll be well worth the wait.

And just because I like to write as well, here's an in-universe greeting to our forum based on your OP. Take what I say with a grain of salt, but enjoy it nonetheless.

You find yourself standing in the atrium of a great castle. A mosaic of light streams through stained glass windows bearing the visages of such great men as Socrates, Plato, Godel, Picasso, and Nietszche and creates bright, dappled pools the dim vastness. Two white-bearded old men argue unintelligibly over what looks like calculus, but could very well be abstract modern art. A cloaked figure emerges from the shadows, bearing a leather satchel with your name.

"Hail, traveler, and welcome to our quiet halls. You'll find a room down five doors and on your left-- mind the cobblestone floors, it's easy to stub your toe. The nights are a bit cold, drafty, and damp, but there's plenty of hot, crispy, succulent roast boar and cold, sweet, clear mead to wash it down. And, if I may be so bold, I recommend that someone with such empathy head down to our ramshackle mental hospital, whose creaky, scream-filled halls can be entered herein: http://intpforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=12. We've too many assaulting the Absurd, and not enough hands to treat them. Even if you'd rather not help, you'd likely find the cases fascinating."

With a gentle nod and the wink of an eye, he hands you the satchel. Therein you find your room keys, cold, slippery slices of partridge carefully wrapped in parchment paper, a small, hearty loaf of bread, and a frosty glass bottle of water from the castle's spring.

"Just in case you decide to leave, let this be a gift from our order" interrupts the figure "Oh, and do dig deeper, you'll be pleasantly surprised."

Reaching further into the satchel's murky depths, you find a scroll on which is written in small, neat script, an oath:

The Thinker's Creed

In brightest day,
In darkest night
No falsehood shall escape my sight
Let those who worship Madness' might
Beware my power,
Pure logic's light!


The cloaked figure touches your shoulder and asks:

"Swear you this oath? For only through it shall you find Truth, be it in the Void or another code. In times of darkness, let it be your candle."

The rest of the story, O traveler, is up to you.

-Duxwing

That was nice, very reminiscent of some early forum memories.
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Old 5th-November-2012, 11:58 PM   #19
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Default Re: A wanderer's greetings

@Silphiums

I see your point. I took an interpretive stance where you took the literal, and I agree with yours more in context. Both are valid though, I think; biological differentiation goes forward (change) and backwards (ancestries) -- divergent and convergent DNA brick walls, as it were.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duxwing View Post
Have you considered becoming a writer? No, I haven't, though the suggestion comes up often. I would write to teach and, sadly, I don't think it's an economical choice. I'd love to read your fiction or history: your heart's warm glow is palpable. Heh, thanks! I would share if I had anything written. Feel free to post infrequently if you can maintain such quality, for it'll be well worth the wait.

And just because I like to write as well, here's an in-universe greeting to our forum based on your OP. Take what I say with a grain of salt, but enjoy it nonetheless. I like it!

You find yourself standing in the atrium of a great castle. A mosaic of light streams through stained glass windows bearing the visages of such great men as Socrates, Plato, Godel, Picasso, and Nietszche and creates bright, dappled pools across the dim vastness. Two white-bearded old men argue unintelligibly over what looks like calculus, but could very well be abstract modern art. A cloaked figure emerges from the shadows, bearing a leather satchel with your name.

"Hail, traveler, and welcome to our quiet halls. You'll find a room down five doors and on your left-- mind the cobblestone floors, it's easy to stub your toe. The nights are a bit cold, drafty, and damp, but there's plenty of hot, crispy, succulent roast boar and cold, sweet, clear mead to wash it down. And, if I may be so bold, I recommend that someone with such empathy head down to our ramshackle mental hospital, whose creaky, scream-filled halls can be entered herein: http://intpforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=12. We've too many assaulting the Absurd, and not enough hands to treat them. Even if you'd rather not help, you'd likely find the cases fascinating."

^ This is actually what I plan to do for a living. Clinical neuropsychology, to be precise, using brain-behavior connections to remedy afflictions.

With a gentle nod and the wink of an eye, he hands you the satchel. Therein you find your room keys, cold, slippery slices of partridge carefully wrapped in parchment paper, a small, hearty loaf of bread, and a frosty glass bottle of water from the castle's spring.

"Just in case you decide to leave, let this be a gift from our order" interrupts the figure "Oh, and do dig deeper, you'll be pleasantly surprised."

Reaching further into the satchel's murky depths, you find a scroll on which is written in small, neat script, an oath:

The Thinker's Creed

In brightest day,
In darkest night
No falsehood shall escape my sight
Let those who worship Madness' might
Beware my power,
Pure logic's light!


The cloaked figure touches your shoulder and asks:

"Swear you this oath? For only through it shall you find Truth, be it in the Void or another code. In times of darkness, let it be your candle."

The rest of the story, O traveler, is up to you.
I'll need a long fire and a few books, if I get my way
There's much I wish to do, learn, and explore.

-Duxwing
@thehabitatdoctor

Who is Da Blob?

Truthfully, I'm very interested in using psychological principles to create a more comprehensive philosophy than commonly offered in religious institutes. They all seem to pine after mortality and death - a subtractive viewpoint - instead of proactively improving and enjoying the life and world we have now.
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Hope is an anytime wreath, hung as a noose for the naive and savored as a wine by the wise.

"All you have to do is decide what to do with the time that is given to you." ~Gandalf the Grey
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Old 6th-November-2012, 02:43 AM   #20
TheHabitatDoctor
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Default Re: A wanderer's greetings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiant Shadow View Post
Who is Da Blob?

Truthfully, I'm very interested in using psychological principles to create a more comprehensive philosophy than commonly offered in religious institutes. They all seem to pine after mortality and death - a subtractive viewpoint - instead of proactively improving and enjoying the life and world we have now.
Good question. I'll treat it as rhetorical since he has no edges [MENTION=940]Da Blob[/MENTION]

http://www.intpforum.com/member.php?u=940

I'm a bit of a forum young'n, but Blob is arguably part of the forum foundation. well versed in wisdom, truth, psychology, and spirituality. Some might say a bit controversial, but hey, if you're not pissing someone off then you're not doing it right.
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Old 6th-November-2012, 06:04 AM   #21
Da Blob
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Default Re: A wanderer's greetings

About 40 years ago I wrote a thesis on the Philosophical Implications Of Cerebral Hemispheric Specialization. It was about a thousand pages long and took me three years to write.

I burned the only copy of it when I left the University of Chicago, figuring it was too dangerous to let fall into the hands of religious fanatics, the academicians who haunt the halls of their temple, the Ivory Tower...

So It Goes!
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