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Adventurer Cage Match Association

Cognisant

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Pathfinder 1v1 deathmatch, we play on a chessboard, that's the cage.
Characters are level 20, if you're playing RB's game you don't have to use that character if you don't want to, character names/stories/personality/etc aren't required but if we make a tournament out of this I think everyone will appreciate it.

Ability scores are determined by points, you get 25 to spend as you wish.
See "Table: Ability Score Costs".

You may play any core race or uncommon race of 0 RP.
No 3rd party races.

No 3rd party or NPC classes, you may use archetypes.
You may multiclass and use prestige classes.
If your class gives you a mount you start on your mount.

You have as many feats as your race, class and level provide you.

For the sake of simplicity there will be no traits, most wouldn't be relevant to a cage match anyway.

Your starting wealth is the maximum you class would give you multiplied by your level (which is 20) so for example a Druid which starts with 2d6×10gp would get 2x6x10x20 which is 2400gp, plus an outfit worth 10gp or less.

You may not hire mercenaries/bodyguards/etc.

Myself, Redbaron and the forum administrators will be game masters, what this means is that when it's your turn you declare what you want to do and one of the aforementioned people will roll for you, if two do it at the same time whoever's post comes first is the official roll and the latter post should be discarded.

Redbaron, the administrators and myself are allowed to play, we just can't roll for any game in which we're participating.

Please post your character details here and I'll confirm that you've done it right before assigning you an opponent and creating another thread where your cage match will be held, if I miss something I'm sure Redbaron, Jennywocky or Hadoblado will correct me.

When Redbaron, an administrator or I create the thread for you we will also pick your opponent, decide your starting positions, who goes first and maybe place some obstacles in the cage, but no traps or monsters or anything like that because that would complicate things too much. It's the match creators responsibility to describe any obstacles placed inside the cage with sufficient detail that the other can come along and decide what happens when someone runs through them or whatever, for example if there's spikes how high are they and how much damage do they do?

The cage may also be littered with items and weapons at the creator's discretion although I advise against this since it's unlikely to be balanced.

If the aforementioned dice rolling people have a dispute it will be discussed privately and the outcome will be posted here and in the relevant match thread.

Finally just for fun here's a ranking system:
S Rank - The best of the best, whichever single person has the highest win to loss ratio, unlike the other ranks only one person can occupy this rank at a time.
A Rank - The top ten or less in regards to win to loss ratio, if there's more than ten because several people have the same win/loss ratio then everyone with that ratio is bumped down to the next rank.
Ranks B C D E and F - Ditto for Rank A except increasing in magnitude by two for each rank down, so there's twenty or less in Rank B, forty or less in Rank C, eighty or less in Rank D, etc.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/character-creation
 

Cognisant

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Actually lets change the character level to 5 otherwise character creation will take too long.
 

Cognisant

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Still working on the name, background, etc.

Race
Human, the mount is a horse

Class(es)
3 Levels Gendarme, Order of the Blue Rose
2 Levels Dragoon (Favored Class, +2 CMD against Trip and Grapple,+2hp)

Feats
Human Feat: Desperate Battler
Gendarme Feat: Power Attack
Dragoon Feat: Mounted Combat
Dragoon Feat: Skill Focus (Ride)
1st Feat: Enforcer
2nd Feat: Ride-by Attack
3rd Feat: Spirited Charge
Fighter Bonus Feat: Intimidating Prowess
Mount Bonus Feat: Armor Proficiency, Light
1st Mount Feat: Sure-Footed
2nd Mount Feat: Iron Will

That pretty much tells you what my tactics are going to be :D

Ability Scores
Strength: 16+2 (4)
Dexterity: 16 (3)
Constitution: 10
Intelligence: 10
Wisdom: 10
Charisma: 14 (2)

Mount Ability Scores
Strength: 16+1 (3)
Dexterity: 13+1 (2)
Constitution: 15 (2)
Intelligence: 2 (-4)
Wisdom: 12 (1)
Charisma: 6 (-2)

Statistics
HP 52
BAB +5
FORT +6
REF +4
WILL +2
AC 20
Flat-footed 17

Mount Statistics
HP 30
BAB +2 (Bite 1d4 +3 Str)
FORT +5
REF +4
WILL +2
AC 9
Flat footed 6

Equipment
1x310gp Masterwork Lance 1d8 10lbs Reach
1x500gp Longbow (composite +4) 1d8 110ft 3lbs
20x(2gp/20) Arrows Blunt
5x20gp Arrows Tanglefoot
1x8gp Flail 1d8 5lbs
1x1sp Weapon Cord (on Lance)
1x20gp Saddle (military) 30lbs
1x50gp Scale mail +5AC –4ACP 20ft 30lbs
1x(4x25gp) Parade armor (barding) +3AC –1ACP 35ft
1x7gp Shield Heavy Wooden +2AC –2ACP
1x300gp Potion "Bull's Strength"
2x50gp Potion "Cure Light Wounds"
Total = 1496gp and 1sp out of 1500gp

Skills
Acrobatics +3 (Dex 3)
Climb +10 (Str 4, CS 3, Ranks 3)
Escape Artist +3 (Dex 3)
Handle Animal +8 (Cha 2, CS 3, Ranks 3)
Intimidate +15 (Cha+Str 7, CS 3, Ranks 5)
Ride +11 (Dex 3, CS 3, Ranks 5)
 

Blarraun

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What size are the squares?
The board seems too small to allow balance for many long ranged classes.

Many of the arena forum games use at least 100m^3 boxes to allow for maneuvering, flight, aoe invisibility summonings and other mechanics that take a lot of space to use effectively.
 

Absurdity

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What size are the squares?
The board seems too small to allow balance for many long ranged classes.
Yeah. Allowing horses doesn't make very much sense at that scale either.
 

Blarraun

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2d plane view of arena below:
Size 200x200x200 meters.
1 and 2 are starting locations
black squares are infinite pillars that prevent vision/targeting/movement
a and b are portals that allow instant movement from one side of the map to another.

The image is crude but presents a less limiting option for use with any build/strategy.

There should be a fog of war and a GM overseeing each players position and mechanics.
 

Cognisant

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I'm open to this, although I have reservations against spending several turns closing distance or simply trying to find each other.

A Gendarme/Dragoon is powerful in open ground but if the opponent can dismount him he's in serious trouble, I actually thought having a really small arena would be a good idea because at best he'll be able to make one charge and then as long as you stay close to him he can't do it again.

We could make a rule that before the match begins people can casts buffs on themselves but not use potions or scrolls so the spell casters don't start off scrambling to get their mage armour on and summoned creatures in play.
 

Cognisant

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The problem with the addition of stealth mechanics is that it's no longer a spectator sport, we'll have to play by private messaging which also means we can't have whichever GM is currently online update the game so it'll take much longer.
 

Blarraun

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The problem with the addition of stealth mechanics is that it's no longer a spectator sport, we'll have to play by private messaging which also means we can't have whichever GM is currently online update the game so it'll take much longer.
Agreed.

I propose a simple rule to prevent inaction / waiting for opportune moments:

If the initial distance between the players is 5 turns running (x4), let's make it a maximum, then they cannot spend more than 5 turns without exchanging blows/attacks or the player that avoids will be declared the loser by walkover.

The map should be smaller, maybe 80 meters in diagonal.

I'm open to overseeing the games for any two players and I would prepare a simple arena and my character just to kickstart this.

It would be nice to have all the forum members ranked by a win ratio :D.
We could make a rule that before the match begins people can casts buffs on themselves but not use potions or scrolls so the spell casters don't start off scrambling to get their mage armour on and summoned creatures in play.
Good idea. I'd leave one summon at the beginning as these only last a few turns so it's more realistic to have them appear during the match.
 

Cognisant

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the player that avoids will be declared the lover by walkover.
...oh "Loser" right, gotcha.

I am concerned about people playing Strix and flying around as longbow wielding zen archers who can fire arrows but almost never get hit by them so maybe we should ban that race (which I'd hate to do) or impose some kind of flight restriction.

Said Strix player could also fly off the moment they attack someone and that person dosen't use the next turn to attack them back and they'd win by default even though they were avoiding combat.
 

Blarraun

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...oh "Loser" right, gotcha.
;). Mental slip, I was probably thinking of the winners priviledge to do as they please with their opponent.
I am concerned about people playing Strix and flying around as longbow wielding zen archers who can fire arrows but almost never get hit by them so maybe we should ban that race (which I'd hate to do) or impose some kind of flight restriction.

Said Strix player could also fly off the moment they attack someone and that person dosen't use the next turn to attack them back and they'd win by default even though they were avoiding combat.
Being only a melee fighter in a real combat scenario is not optimal, I'd say even bulky minotaurs should pack a ballista to cover that weakness.
Unless that strix can get in and out of range so that no retaliation is possible, then there is something possibly overpowered in them in general.
 

Cognisant

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Maybe the winner should be decided by vote, so it's not who wins the fight but rather whoever puts on a better show, if you win with cheap tactics everyone will know and you'll lose the vote.

For example a sorcerer may cast grease on a wizard's bonded item which effectively denies him the ability to cast spells, after exploiting the advantage for a few rounds the sorcerer may do the honourable thing and allow the wizard pick up his bonded item, it dosen't make sense tactically but it could be a brilliant move strategically.

If my mounted terror takes out someone in a single critical charge I'll have him get off his horse and pour his healing potions in the opponent's mouth and then they can continue the fight with him off horseback, assuming the opponent dosen't gracefully concede defeat.

Being only a melee fighter in a real combat scenario is not optimal, I'd say even bulky minotaurs should pack a ballista to cover that weakness.
Monks can catch arrows on a Reflex save and a level five monk with a 25pt ability score and a racial dexterity bonus is going to have reflexes like Neo.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/deflect-arrows-combat

Actually I'm not even sure it is a reflex save :confused:
 

Blarraun

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Maybe the winner should be decided by vote, so it's not who wins the fight but rather whoever puts on a better show, if you win with cheap tactics everyone will know and you'll lose the vote.
Maybe we can connect the two:
Winning the vote +5 points.
Winning the battle +5 points.

The audience, who would be collectively called demons, that previously captured the two unfortunate adventurers and had them fight one another, can write down their own special conditions which would award one point each after being accepted by the game master.

So someone from the audience could ask for drunken combat, or putting the enemy in bondage (winning by grapple/non-lethal damage) as an optional objective, or something like that :p.

Monks can catch arrows on a Reflex save and a level five monk with a 25pt ability score and a racial dexterity bonus is going to have reflexes like Neo.
That's what I meant by covering a weak spot. Not necessarily by going ranged.
 

Cognisant

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The problem with special conditions is that they'll clearly favour one opponent over another.

I think having +1 point for winning the battle and +1 for winning the vote is enough and instead of having the ranks decided by win/loss ratios they'll be decided by the number of points each person has accumulated, after all what's to stop someone never playing again after winning their first match and having a perfect win/loss history forevermore?

If one person wins and the other gets the vote then everybody walks away with something and if one person gets both then they must have won honourably.
 

Cognisant

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Maybe there could be several criteria upon which points are assigned.

Victory, for winning obviously.
Honour, for not using cheat tactics regardless who won.
Character, for role playing your character consistently and actually having a personality.
Performance, for being the most entertaining.
Special, criteria to be determined and declared by the host GM on a match to match basis.
 

Blarraun

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Yeah, let them have 100% win rate.
http://senseis.xmp.net/?Ingo

I propose a simple Ingo rating system. It will be easy to establish skill level with that.
The rating formula is R = O - ( W - 50 ) where:
R is the players new rating, O is the arithmetic average of the ratings of the player's opponents, and W is the player's win ratio expressed as a percentage.
Starting rating could be 500. The lower the better.

edit:
With that in mind, we could make it into a positioned system.
The first person to score a certain rating, for example 255, will cause other people rated as 255, add +1 to their rating.

So that for 3 people scoring 255, the first to do this would have a position 255, second 256, third 257.

Effectively this gives us a nice positional placement.


And yeah, let's make it +1 win +1 vote.
 

Blarraun

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edit:
With that in mind, we could make it into a positioned system.
The first person to score a certain rating, for example 255, will cause other people rated as 255, add +1 to their rating.

So that for 3 people scoring 255, the first to do this would have a position 255, second 256, third 257.
What was I thinking.
It should clearly be the reverse.
The last to score a given rating gets to keep the position.

So that the fresh skill is more relevant and old champions get rusty.
 

Cognisant

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Works for me, now make yourself a character sheet so we can get started :D

Edit: Somebody play a Synthesist because win or lose it's going to be a glorious fight.

 

redbaron

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Should be 5-6 arenas of varying sizes with terrains, obstacles and environmental hazards. Means all kinds of strategies can be viable. Relative geometrical symmetry for fairness.

Bo3 or bo5 format.

Considering characters with standard 30ft movespeed can sprint 120ft in one turn, 200 x 200 arena isn't too big.

I think points for 'honour' or losing points for being 'cheap' just prevent creativity. A win is a win.

My $0.02

Anyway I'm travelling for ~2 months as of tonight so I won't be DM'ing or participating in any depth really. I might put in a character though.
 

Blarraun

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Arena #1:
Explanation:
The map consists of 66x66x66 cubes, 5 ft. each (5ft is the smallest unit of movement in pathfinder).

The map uses the ortographic projection, which means that only X and Y axis are visible, the Z axis (height) is empty unless occupied by the players or walls.

Stars in the upper left and bottom right corners:
Player starting locations.

Blue and red flags in the middle top/bottom, left/right edges:
Portals that allow transportation between the same colors after expending a move action.

Black (Obsidian) tiles with violet sparkles:
These are impassable force fields that extend infinitely upwards on the z axis, so that no flight over them is possible. These tiles further prevent vision and provide full or partial cover.

Other tiles serve only a decorative function.
I will create a character tomorrow, this map uses custom 32 pixel tilesets.

In addition to the above functions, the map is fully symmetric with respect to the diagonal.

Movement rules:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alignment-description/movement
 

Cognisant

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Can't see the image.

And why are there flags?

I think points for 'honour' or losing points for being 'cheap' just prevent creativity. A win is a win.
I don't see why it would prevent creativity it just means if you find a tactic that works you won't spend the entire match exploiting it, because that would be boring, the honour thing makes putting on a good performance a priority alongside winning.

If people are fighting just to win I think that will prevent creativity.
 

Blarraun

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Can't see the image.
Not sure what the problem is, here is the direct link:http://i.imgur.com/LGDMBob.png
And why are there flags?
I called it flags but it's just a marker for portal location, it has nothing to do with capture the flag or anything like that.

I don't see why it would prevent creativity it just means if you find a tactic that works you won't spend the entire match exploiting it, because that would be boring, the honour thing makes putting on a good performance a priority alongside winning.

If people are fighting just to win I think that will prevent creativity.
Maybe instead of having to deal with style/skill problem, we will have separate ratings for crowd favourites and combat superiority, so after the match is over a player might win both, one or none of these selections.

I consider the crowd to be inherently biased and unable to appreciate "my" style anyway :twisteddevil:.
 

Hadoblado

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Okay so I’ve got a lot of thinks.

1) Great idea. Seriously, could be really fun.

2) Why limit ourselves to 1v1? The pathfinder rules system is designed for cooperative play against monsters. It’s stretching the system less to make you work cooperatively against other players.

1v1 is likely a coinflip of matchups. You don’t want to vs a rogue as a wizard and don’t want to vs a barbarian as a rogue. Having compositions increases tactical and strategic depth and gives players more control over their own destiny. You could have players create their dream team, or have team battles with players controlling one character within a team exclusively. Making it 1v1 seems very limiting, I think something like 4v4 could be really rather awesome. With teams you could also have an experience pool, allowing for you to allocate experience to each character separately (and possibly a cash pool?).

3) Perhaps if the playfield is varied and decided upon before each match, then the players have a day or so to make the team/character they will use specifically for that match? Otherwise again you’ll have balance thrown to the negotiation table. This also opens up a creative outlet of map creation.

4) Perhaps an effort could be made to be more inclusive of non-combat skills. Making diplomacy rolls to determine who decides aspects of the fight could be an interesting dynamic. Having more complex battlefields with elements that require knowledge checks? Having climbable or swimmable terrain? I’m interested in any way system that could bring more of each class into the fight.

5) The money method mentioned in the initial post seems a little skewed. The game is balanced around the classes having equal money at all but first level. The gear that initial money difference makes is discarded early, so it makes no real difference past fourth level or so. It’d be much fairer to just go by the expected money per character level table.

6) We could perhaps have a separate much smaller budget for consumables, so that people can have potions and scrolls or whatever, but not go crazy abusive. If we managed to set up a tournament we could have a pool of money for consumables that is supposed to last the entire tournament -> more decision making.

7) Determining the winner: it just seems easier to have the people that are left standing be the winners. I hate style scoring systems with a passion. They’re so subjective... and more in line with an noncompetitive activity than one in which a winner can clearly be declared. Most competitive sports have their fair share of snazzy play, but it comes as a by-product of competition rather than an ends in itself, and is much sweeter as a result.

8) I think keeping the character sheets of the teams a secret a much more fair and interesting way to play, verified by a third party before each match of course. Complete information is almost always a sure-fire way to dry up diverse play.

9) Symmetrical arenas are good, but also having large set areas where characters can start from. You need to allow people to react to potential threats through variability, lest placement become stagnant and meta-conserving. An arena with only one entrance will have a party wiped first turn from quadruple fireballs.

10) There needs to be a height limit for flying. A good way to win without such a limit is to invest your money in rations and fly up indefinitely. I think 40 feet is standard fare? It’s not like the fly spell would suddenly be bad.

Thoughts?
 

Absurdity

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Yeah I like the idea of at least doing 2v2. 4v4 might get cumbersome unless maybe each team had two people each controlling two characters.
 

Hadoblado

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Agreed Abs. I think the more complex the setting and team compositions, the more experienced the players and judges will have to be. Until people are experienced, any addition of complexity will require the subtraction of complexity somewhere else to keep it playable. If there were teams of four, I'd want the characters to be lower level to compensate etc.
 

Blarraun

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I was also thinking of a way to avoid counter-constructing characters.

Either the characters are constructed secretly and reviewed by a GM, so that the players are unaware of the opponents build.

Or we can simply skip the reviewing part and present the characters at the beginning of the battle with their character sheets, so that they are "locked" and then the other player can accept their opponents build or point out any errors they find. So this ideally should be done by the GM, so the players post their characters to a third person and that person creates a thread without the informational delay, to avoid players using multiple builds to adjust to the opponents strategy.

Another option is to use google drive spreadsheets, where it's possible to check what changes were made during what times, to make sure the character stays the same and all the changes are backed up.

Maps can be selected randomly from the pool, or can be selected prior to character creation.
 

Cognisant

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Great input Hado.

I am however afraid that we're entering into the typical INTP contemplative holding pattern.
 

Jennywocky

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How many Wish spells can a 20th level wizard memorize?
 

Hadoblado

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Five with a bonded object, but there are ways to get more off in a day, such as scrolls. Also costs 25k per casting.
 

Jennywocky

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I suspect level 20 fighting is all about who goes first.
 

Blarraun

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I suspect level 20 fighting is all about who goes first.
Not sure about the pathfinder meta standards.
In D&D there was enough variety and well played immobilise or invisibility can influence the initiative later during combat.

On level 20 most characters can either kill or disarm the character in one round, melee fighters need to be close, but mages with metamagic enervation and empowered spells have huge damage multipliers on distance attacks.

There are many tricks to avoid getting caught out in the open field, some classes have permanent invisibility when moving while some cast darkness spells and use blindsight to deny vision.

But the same goes for low level battles, just with 2, 3 rounds who goes first and the initiation is crucial. This is very much like a real combat scenario, which can last a few seconds in case of a sword or knife fight.
 

Hadoblado

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Okay guys I'm gonna try and host one of these bad boys. It'll be more of a practice bout than a serious battle. I want to get used to the campaign designer and to check balance for arena, as well as smooth out the hosting and battling processes.

3v3 on a 24x24 map. May take a while as it's play by post, though I've got the next two days off. I need two volunteers with some experience willing to design a three man team, and to fight it out for however long it takes. I may end it early if there are some obvious flaws in design. I'll give more details if I find my volunteers :)

Edit: Characters will be level 5, so not too complex. I'll be deviating significantly from OP guidelines. Though the map is relatively simple, there will be opportunity for some skill use. You will not start in LoS of enemy. There will be restrictions on purchases, including a ban on consumables.
 

Blarraun

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I volunteer on the condition that builds are revealed at the beginning of the battle, unless we will have some kind of arbiter to make sure that everything is correct and kept secret from the other player.

Still it's not difficult to make a correct build at level 5.
 

Hadoblado

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I will be intermediary and DM. I don't want people seeing each other's builds, but I'll make sure everything is legal. I'm currently rattling Jenny to fill spot #2. I'll set up the thread shortly.

Edit: Also thanks for volunteering, I appreciate it.
 

Cognisant

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You'll need to define "consumables".

Alchemical ammunition?
Scrolls/tattoos for wizards and sorcerers? (some archetypes require these)
Pearls of power? If a sorcerer can have rings/pages of spell knowledge it seems unfair not to let wizards have pearls of power.

I'll have to make some changes to my Gendarme/Dragoon, he can do amazing amounts of nonlethal damage however...
Flat of the Blade
When the cavalier makes use of this ability, he must attempt to subdue his target without killing it; dealing lethal damage after using this ability, or allowing his allies to kill the target, is considered a violation of his edicts.
 

Hadoblado

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Pearls of power are fine (they're not consumed). I'll also allow ammunition to be purchased, though it may end up OP since part of the cost is that you're not supposed to be able to keep it... Oh well, we'll test and see. I don't know about the tattoos, how do they function?

No scrolls
No wands
No potions

Alchemists can use components pertaining to their class abilities, well... they could if I were allowing base classes... Once I've got a second player I'll give them the full rule set. Jenny isn't responding, so if anyone else is interested feel free.

Edit: My approach to this is that the DM sets the rules and arena, then both players design their parties with those things in mind. I'm not pushing for these rules to be part of everyone's matches.
 

Hadoblado

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I won't allow tattoos for this one.

I'm having core only, as I am inexperienced with base classes, and there are more fundamental mechanics I want to test the balance of. There's also some possible balance issues that I can't be bothered addressing quite yet.
 
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Blarraun

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So anyone up for a challenge? I will have all the characters ready soon and they are quite game breaking.

Consumables are imbalanced, as are various classes, so by allowing them it is assumed that players will use their knowledge to avoid picking suboptimal items or builds.

Frankly I wanted to go with 3x of the same class, but I will add something to make it more versatile.
 

Jennywocky

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Although someone asked via PM, I'm not really interested in the moment. I've barely even read the posts in this thread, and I have other things occupying my time right now. But thanks.
 

Cognisant

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Is this a rule?
We could make a rule that before the match begins people can casts buffs on themselves but not use potions or scrolls so the spell casters don't start off scrambling to get their mage armour on and summoned creatures in play.
 

Cognisant

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Hmm, I can deal with that.

So you want to be with me or against me?
 

Hadoblado

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Righto Jenny, no problem.

Okay, it's official. Blarraun vs Coggy deathmatch.

I'm currently scrabbling about the rules trying to figure out legality and what not. What is with you people and asking difficult questions? I'll have the thread up soon.

Cog I'll send you what I've got of the rules so far just so you're not walking around in the dark.
 

Blarraun

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Character creation was a bit exhausting.

I think If this was to be held regularly, I'd prepare some organised set of squads and individual characters, so that I would be ready to play the moment I decide.
 

Hadoblado

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Yeah, I think that with time archetypes will arise, and it's easy to make a few quick alterations to your sword'n'board fighter than to make apple pie from scratch each time.
 

Hadoblado

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I'm issuing an open challenge. I need someone to host and someone to vs. I'd like to see some level 10ish action :)
 

Hadoblado

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Cool!

Any idea about what specifics you'll be enforcing?
 
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