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Brutal Mafia. Anyone interested?

PmjPmj

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I know there’s currently a Mafia game in full swing, but I was wondering if at some point in the near future, people would be interested in playing a ‘brutal / hardcore’ version of the game?

Firstly, the theme would probably change. I’m used to playing TWG, or ‘The Werewolf Game’. The premise is identical, but I prefer werewolves over mafia because they’re more in line with how savage I’d like the game to be.

Rules and roles can be tossed about and discussed further, as I know some of you guys far better understand the mechanics of the game, but the whole point is to have this set up as a fast paced, brutal and bloody battle. Basically, INTJ-mode Mafia. It will cause heartache, tears, vicious arguments and permanent damage to previously established friendships.

:)

There would be:

11 players

7 Vanilla Town
1 Vigilante (can kill anyone at any time; no need to wait for the night - one kill only - retains ability if turned)
1 Guardian Angel (does what it says on the tin)
1 Wolf
1 Infectious Wolf (can turn 1 person during any night cycle. Only 1 person can be turned for the duration of the game)

Might need more balancing. I'd want the setup to create maximum confusion and panic, so help with this would be appreciated! Wolves are massively on the back foot, but have an awesome ace up their sleeve.

Day 1 will be 24 hours from game commencing
Night ends as soon as all night actions are in
Day 2 will be 24 hours from whatever time night actions are completed, and so on.

There are only two explicit rules: NO. ROLE. REVEALING; no editing posts.

Want to chat via PM? Go for it (just keep logs so we can enjoy it later). Want to shit-talk another player? Encouraged. All balls must be at least swinging free, or 150% to the wall. Those failing to assert themselves will be cut down mercilessly (mod-killed if there is little to no activity within a 24 hour period - regardless of previous contributions. Technical issues obviously aside).

Roles will be assigned at random.

I can mod the game (although would also appreciate a second mod ‘just in case’, what with family and all).

Thoughts? This is a shitty, brief outline. If it’s something you guys would be interested in, we can absolutely tweak the format.

Let me be clear, though: this is supposed to be a high-conflict, maximum confusion game. Therefore, suggestions which seek to mitigate chaos / rage will not be considered.

This is a throwback to the kind of game I used to play, now over a decade ago. Fast, furious and always brutal. High emotion and much frustration are all part of the package. You have been fairly warned :p

This could be set up in July some time. If we waited until post 25th, I would be massively more available as my family fly out to Spain a couple of weeks ahead of me (win).

Thoughts?
 

xbox

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i'm in.
 

Seteleechete

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Basically, INTJ-mode Mafia.
This made me imagine someplace like intjforum having a mafia game... Bloodbath seems like an apt description.
 

PmjPmj

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You'd think so, eh? Actually, the last game was pretty tame - but then I think most of the participants were actually INTP, heh. Plus, activity was low. It very quickly descended into shitposting.

Are you up for it, Sete?
 

Yellow

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I'd enjoy it a lot. By coincidence, I couldn't start on something with that level of intensity until July 26th either.

However, I wish (and for all mafia games I wish this) that there was a way to limit the number of arguments that could be made along the lines of "you were acting this way in X game, and that way in Y game, so you must be Z". It's crazy to not expect changes from game to game. I hate it even more than role revealing, TBH.

Anyway, I love the idea of conversion.
 

Blarraun

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However, I wish (and for all mafia games I wish this) that there was a way to limit the number of arguments that could be made along the lines of "you were acting this way in X game, and that way in Y game, so you must be Z". It's crazy to not expect changes from game to game. I hate it even more than role revealing, TBH.
It's a weak argument, but it can be made. Excessive reliance on those kinds of reads may be detrimental.

Why do you hate role revealing? It's a viable strategy, just as role hiding can be.
 

PmjPmj

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Yes, I agree Yellow. It really irked me initially that people were actively referring back to old games to glean insights into another's behaviour. I think (as I mention elsewhere) this is just a difference in cognitive functions though. It makes sense that Ti goes out of its way for any and all information it can find on a subject. My best mate is an INTP and he's very much like that. Me? I just learn as I go, and like to arrive at any conclusions off my own back.

Objectively, the Ti approach is probably more effective, but meh - I like reading between the lines :p
 

Yellow

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It's a weak argument, but it can be made. Excessive reliance on those kinds of reads may be detrimental.

Why do you hate role revealing? It's a viable strategy, just as role hiding can be.
I enjoy the battle, the chaos, and the doubt. Role revealing flattens the game, and limits the intrigue. Just like appeals to past play styles. Everyone (especially us newbies) should be a little different in every game, and so past games are an extremely poor foundation for alignment arguments. That is, unless you think the player utterly lacks the ability to try anything new.
 

Yellow

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Will the Vigilante be forced to announce their kill, or would it be secret? I think the game would be more balanced if it could be kept secret.
 

Jennywocky

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I think role revealing is necessary in limited scenarios. We've only had a few games here on the site, so I wouldn't dismiss it based on limited experience. Basically, if the role is going to be lynched, a reveal is usually beneficial... The only reveal I can think of right now that wasn't due to an impending lynch is the cop reveal in Game 2 (and there, the cop wanted to play "Follow the Cop" which is a very well-known Town-favored strategy + scum locked onto the potential cop on D1, driving the D2 reveal.) Also, Hado did not role-reveal in Game 1 and had a scum read on Day 1, and Town still lost.

I think if people are just revealing without a real strategic purpose or out of bad strategy when alternatives were viable, then that would be a problem. Also, if Town would stop trying to lynch town PRs [and/or Town PRs would stop registering as scum], then maybe it would diminish too... ;)

I think past play recollection is viable... but only in a very general sense. You can't expect someone to not change up overt strategies. However, people still are themselves -- this is a personality site, we all know this, there's some core of consistency involved with a person or we wouldn't even be here at INTPf, right? It's just that people are complex and can take on temporary roles and strategies, so you have to be careful when you compare to a limited past dataset where there could have been reward to change up behavior. What to look at it overall is broad approach and behavior, not get hung up on the details of a particular approach (as the details are more easily changed). You have to filter behavior through motivation/intent in order to understand any apparent changes in strategy.
 

redbaron

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Role reveals make sense if you're a blue role and about to be lynched because you getting lynched is the absolute worst thing that can happen for town. On some sites there's people who'll actually blacklist you and ban them from their future games and/or refuse to play with if you're put at L-1 and someone declares they're going to put the final vote and you, as a blue role don't declare that you're blue.

They consider it game-throwing basically since as a blue role your survival is not only important, but your claim will also do two things: direct a lynch towards a potential scum target OR: force a scum player to counter-claim to get you lynched - which then means even if they believe the scum player and not you and you get lynched, you traded 1 for 1 with scum.

So NOT role-claiming if you're a power role and you're about to be lynched is just terrible play and you're sabotaging Town by letting it happen.

As a rule you wouldn't role-claim unless you've gathered game-changing information. Town on the verge of lynching their power role qualifies for that. Having a guilty + 2 innocent or a double-guilty read as Cop would count too. Bunch of other hypotheticals as well, so on and so on.

Posting stuff from moderator comms or outside of games is obviously a strict no-no but simply claiming your role is just good strategy and makes sense.
 

PmjPmj

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Thanks for clearing that up, guys. I still don't like it, but ho hum. I think my mentality is "suck it up". Not referring to anything in particular here (>_>) if somebody has played poorly and shit the bed, blue or not they should suffer the consequences. It's a learning curve when all said and done.

But, I accept that is merely my opinion.

"Eeee, when I were a lad..."
 

PmjPmj

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Will the Vigilante be forced to announce their kill, or would it be secret? I think the game would be more balanced if it could be kept secret.
Historically, it has been announced.

Again, though - happy to tweak the rules as required.
 

Yellow

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@Jenny and RB - You can't just waltz in here and be the voice of reason and expect me to take it laying down! You guys make sense, but at least half of the role reveals and most of the appeals to past play thus far have been hogwaller.
 

Yellow

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Historically, it has been announced.

Again, though - happy to tweak the rules as required.
Well, I wouldn't consider it a requirement. I honestly have no idea yet what makes a game balanced. Also, it just occurred to me that the announcement would give town one guaranteed townmember for the rest of the day (because he/she could be converted that night, depending on what's going on with the guardian angel). I don't know if that would add to the chaos or take away from it.
 

PmjPmj

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Maybe we could replace Vigilante with Assassin? A stealthy night killer, with no clue as to the role of the person he/she is about to kill.

Much hilarity could ensue.
 

Hadoblado

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Hey, I might be interested.

Talking about roleclaimy stuff, it's absolutely unregulatable. I can just explicitly state in very precise thing that I'm definitely not and people will take my meaning. I can just act super obvious and people will make the claim for me. Hell if I were cop, I could call every other member a cop and everyone would know what I was saying. I could then call everyone mafia except for the person I read, and town would catch on. Cannot be controlled.

If something is unregulatable, regulating should not be attempted. Ever.

Also, it's really not that bad. I actually prefer being a VT. I play for the satisfaction of deriving people's intentions without hacks, even if I'm bad at it. I like to master basics before I move onto more complex shit. But if you do land a blue role, you've got a lot of pressure on you since there is disproportional emphasis placed on you compared to other town. Claiming when it's the best play is a necessity, you just need to make sure it's the best play before you do it. Think about it this way: the entire point of cop is to find mafia then claim. While you could push for their lynches normally, it will make you look suss when you start fabricating arguments. Other roles also have times when they need to claim, such as when town is acting on an assumption you know to be false.

If people couldn't role claim, town would be weaker, all of the setups would have to be pushed towards even more blue roles to make up for it.
 

Yellow

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Sure, but would the assassin be immune to conversion, or would they have to try to kill quickly to avoid conversion or risk turning on the town?
 

Jennywocky

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@Jenny and RB - You can't just waltz in here and be the voice of reason and expect me to take it laying down! .
If you want to stand up first, be my guest.

Ba-DUM-bum! *ding*
 

PmjPmj

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Sure, but would the assassin be immune to conversion, or would they have to try to kill quickly to avoid conversion or risk turning on the town?
Nope - they could be converted.

This is what I mean by the wolves being "On the back foot, but with an ace up their sleeve". Not only can they convert someone, if they get it right...

I might throw in a super-secret special role, too.

:phear:
 

Yellow

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Just don't make it too easy for the wolves. It's more fun if they are scrambling too.
 

Sinny91

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You swooned me with the words 'Brutal' & 'Savage' ..

/In
 

redbaron

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Thanks for clearing that up, guys. I still don't like it, but ho hum. I think my mentality is "suck it up". Not referring to anything in particular here (>_>) if somebody has played poorly and shit the bed, blue or not they should suffer the consequences. It's a learning curve when all said and done.

But, I accept that is merely my opinion.

"Eeee, when I were a lad..."
Blue roles often play deliberately scummy so that mafia don't NK them. Mafia often NK the people who seem hard to lynch (aka the very Town people) so by appearing scummier than usual a blue role gets off the NK radar and also knows they can either roleclaim and bait a mafia or avoid being lynched themselves.

It's a fine line to tread to be not targeted by either the Town or Mafia.
 

PmjPmj

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Yup, I get that. I suppose my own style will evolve with time and experience. Throwing myself at the deep end and learning to swim is what I tend to do best - if only because I find it interesting. Where other people may refer to guides and the like (smart; effective) I like to go ahead and figure it out on my own. It means I screw up some times, but screwing up = lessons learned.

@Sinny - welcome aboard :D

Shall we get this set up for some time in July, then?

If the 24 hour days are going to be too much of a push for some people, we can figure a better alternative out. Or at least allow for certain leniences for those who require it. Pre game, so everyone knows that you aren't 'lurking' because of how you rolled, etc.
 

Reluctantly

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Can you add a role that gets to change people's avatars, titles, and sigs while the game goes on? I think it would add a comic element to the game. :)
 

cheese

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I'm interested.
 

Puffy

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If I have more time free by then I'd consider it.
 

Hadoblado

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Okay I'm in, but I will have limited time. It does sound fun. So filter's fully off right? Shoot to kill?
 

PmjPmj

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Yes. Savage exchanges are encouraged. In thread; in PMs (keep logs) or even chat rooms if you want (again - keep logs).

It's a free for all.

That all being said, I still encourage tactical play. It's an opportunity to be as manipulative as fuck to one another :)
 

Hadoblado

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I think I'll limit myself to attacking people for what they do within this game. Too easy and dreadful to drag up the past and make it miserable for them. I'll go in dry though I promise.
 

PmjPmj

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Would anybody be up for toying with the idea of a Skype game? Real time FACES.

Ain't nobody getting past my Ni >_>
 

Cheeseumpuffs

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Would anybody be up for toying with the idea of a Skype game? Real time FACES.

Ain't nobody getting past my Ni >_>
Sounds interesting. Would probably be less of a time/reading commitment which I'm down for. How is everyone going to find a single time where everyone's available to skype, though? Seems like a logistical nightmare what with everyone stuck all in different time zones.
 

PmjPmj

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Past the 25th, I'm happy to accommodate you guys as the fam' will be away.
 

PmjPmj

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We could even do video clips or something? Each person views the other videos and makes their case. Oh god. The possibilities.
 

Cheeseumpuffs

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Past the 25th, I'm happy to accommodate you guys as the fam' will be away.

Have dextroamphetamine; will play :p
I read that as a dextromethorphan for a second which is a wildly different substance and I was confused as to how that was supposed to instill confidence in your playing ability, but I see know that you are talking abSout adderall. (Now, though, I can't get the idea out of my head of everyone trying to play mafia while robo-tripping DXM hahaha)

I am looking for another job presently, which will hopefully have different scheduling requirements so I'm hoping that my schedule will be equally flexible later in the month.

I guess I'll put my name forward as a soft yes to that idea.

A FoP (finger of participation), if you will
 

PmjPmj

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Quick! Edit the post!

No drugs here. None.

*whistles*

But yes - amazing stuff. Laser focus.

I had a psychology tutor years ago (had a PhD; worked high up in the government but 'gave back' in her free time by tutoring for the OU). She told me I had ADD in no uncertain terms, and that I should get it checked out. Me being me, I laughed and called bullshit, but then she said "No, really. I have it. I know what I'm on about".

I ignored her (how surprising) but then ended up trying the aforementioned 'medication' very recently. Jesus H Christ.

500% the person I am normally. Wonderful substance.
 

Cheeseumpuffs

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Agreed. I've not had a ton of experience with it, but the period of time I did play around with it will go down as the three of the most functional and mentally/emotionally healthy days perhaps of my life (although physically it drained the shit out of me).
 

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Ha, now that would be something.
 

PmjPmj

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Agreed. I've not had a ton of experience with it, but the period of time I did play around with it will go down as the three of the most functional and mentally/emotionally healthy days perhaps of my life (although physically it drained the shit out of me).
Same here. I've also tried straight up 'Amy', but my doses are quite sensible. I like to feel a bit of a buzz, but rather than the high that some users chase, I just like to have a gentle push. 'Amy' is a wonderful thing - but 'Darcy' (the aforementioned)? Holy shit.

Both make me far more overtly compassionate, driven and extroverted. I go from 'I can't be arsed' to 'DOING ALL THE THINGS! FLARGHALGRAGHARLGAGL!' within about 30 minutes.

Comedown is a bastard though, because I'm already exhausted (for reasons I've previously specified, but briefly work; family) and so I'm pushing myself well beyond my limits. Therefore, I like to do 1-3 days on (when I really need to get my shit in gear) and a week or two off, because if I did any more I'd probably die >_>

Whilst we're on the subject, DMT.

Yes? No? Maybe?
 

redbaron

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/IN if forum game.

/OUT if skype or some other video bullshit.
 

PmjPmj

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Haven't done it. Don't have any plans for doing it in the near future. But fuck yeah if I don't do it at least once in my life I will have failed.
Highly recommended.

Can discuss further if you wish.

Anyway.

So, when are people feeling they may want to participate in this comparatively quick-fire Mafia game? I am happy to start when you guys are. We'll definitely need to agree on some rules/roles beforehand, of course.
 

Shapelog

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OMG A PM GAME??!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

I THOUGHT THOSE WERE EXTINCT!

/IN /IN


200% Huk BM mode!
(unless skype, cuz data)
 
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PmjPmj

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Can we get a list on who's currently in this werewolf game?
At present, I count (probably incorrectly):

IN
xbox
Sinny
Hado
RB
Spaceblog

Maybe
Yellow (after the 26th?)
Cheese ("interested")
Puffy

Anyone else want to confirm one way or another?

Once we start getting more interest, we can work out the final kinks and then launch in to action.
 

Cheeseumpuffs

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At present, I count (probably incorrectly):

IN
xbox
Sinny
Hado
RB
Spaceblog

Maybe
Yellow (after the 26th?)
Cheese ("interested")
Puffy

Anyone else want to confirm one way or another?

Once we start getting more interest, we can work out the final kinks and then launch in to action.
I'm Cheeseumpuffs. We have a member named cheese and I dunno if he's interested in playing any mafia games yet (although he was doing quite splendidly in the Spec, but then again I think everyone in Spec was a winner in one way or another).
 

cheese

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^I did say I was interested in this thread. Thanks though Puffs. :D

Gawd, I remember the days when I wasn't a footnote to Puffs' posts...
 

Cheeseumpuffs

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^I did say I was interested in this thread. Thanks though Puffs. :D
Oh sorry, I didn't remember that off the top of my head and I was more concerned with making sure my name didn't inadvertently speak for you.

Gawd, I remember the days when I wasn't a footnote to Puffs' posts...
Yeah, those were good days. Back when I was just that guy who no one thought about (although I don't want to assume that anyone really think's about me even now. That just feels egotistical) and could just be dismissed name-wise as being stuck somewhere between you and Puffy.
 

QuickTwist

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@Jenny and RB - You can't just waltz in here and be the voice of reason and expect me to take it laying down! You guys make sense, but at least half of the role reveals and most of the appeals to past play thus far have been hogwaller.

That's only because people are new to mafia here and there is really no baseline for how to treat PR claims.
 

QuickTwist

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Hey, I might be interested.

Talking about roleclaimy stuff, it's absolutely unregulatable. I can just explicitly state in very precise thing that I'm definitely not and people will take my meaning. I can just act super obvious and people will make the claim for me. Hell if I were cop, I could call every other member a cop and everyone would know what I was saying. I could then call everyone mafia except for the person I read, and town would catch on. Cannot be controlled.
Again, you are talking about a rule that is being bent and the spirit of the rule is not being followed.
 
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