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Bvanevery's reaction to Bronto and Sinny [Transgender] derail split from "Proof that women are becom

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bvanevery

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What good is that? What good is a lone magnet?
You can manufacture electricity with one, so that you can have internets and come up with clever ideas about sexual preferences like you do. Seriously, it is not the evolutionary role of all members of a species to reproduce.
 

Brontosaurie

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Re: Proof that women are becoming masculine and men becoming feminine

You can manufacture electricity with one, so that you can have internets and come up with clever ideas about sexual preferences like you do. Seriously, it is not the evolutionary role of all members of a species to reproduce.
How come you assume people don't know about induction? My post was a simple silliness alluding to the everyday concept of a magnet. It wasn't meant to be a scholarly exercise.

Did i say everyone must reproduce?

Find a real strawman to hang out with. Your baseless hatred is as tiring as it is flattering.
 

bvanevery

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Re: Proof that women are becoming masculine and men becoming feminine

How come you assume people don't know about induction?
I didn't. How come you assume I assume...?

My post was a simple silliness alluding to the everyday concept of a magnet. It wasn't meant to be a scholarly exercise.

Did i say everyone must reproduce?
You didn't mention a single magnet having any use, such as induction. Your metaphorical implication is that men and women must be sexually attracted to each other, like pairs of magnets, or they are useless. I take issue with that aspersion.

Your baseless hatred is as tiring as it is flattering.
You are projecting. Disliking one of your points of view, is not hatred.
 

Brontosaurie

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Re: Proof that women are becoming masculine and men becoming feminine

I didn't. How come you assume I assume...?



You didn't mention a single magnet having any use, such as induction. Your metaphorical implication is that men and women must be sexually attracted to each other, like pairs of magnets, or they are useless. I take issue with that aspersion.



You are projecting. Disliking one of your points of view, is not hatred.
You did assume, because that's what you responded to.

I was responding casually to Gopher. Read context.

One? Funny. Granted, nitpicking opportunities to flaunt factoid knowledge seems to be your standard mode of operation and nothing personal towards me in particular.

I can be your psychiatrist/punchbag/both if you pay me. For now, i see no point in interacting with you. So long brah.
 

bvanevery

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Re: Proof that women are becoming masculine and men becoming feminine

You did assume, because that's what you responded to.
I responded to what you said. Not what you know.

I was responding casually to Gopher. Read context.
I took your metaphor seriously and didn't find it amusing. If you were trying to construct a great joke about magnets and sexuality, maybe the delivery is lacking something? If anyone else was paying attention, you could ask them if they thought your joke was funny.

One? Funny. Granted, nitpicking opportunities to flaunt factoid knowledge seems to be your standard mode of operation and nothing personal towards me in particular.
This is your lens for me right now, for whatever reason. Really not my problem. To the degree that you try to make it a problem, moderators can deal with it. I think you're angry about 'stuff' and will be venting at someone else soon enough.
 

bvanevery

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Re: Proof that women are becoming masculine and men becoming feminine

I wasn't that offended. But I do make note of strongly cisgendered biased stuff when it comes up. Call me PC that way. Especially in this thread, whose title very much throws down a gauntlet about such issues.
 

The Gopher

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Re: Proof that women are becoming masculine and men becoming feminine

Attractive to themselves yeah :D What good is that? What good is a lone magnet?
Well since everyone is bi-sexual I don't see how that's actually a problem. Most people are narcissistic enough anyway.


You didn't mention a single magnet having any use, such as induction. Your metaphorical implication is that men and women must be sexually attracted to each other, like pairs of magnets, or they are useless. I take issue with that aspersion.
What mental state did you have to be in to first take this seriously and secondly make the mental jumps to come to this conclusion?

I took your metaphor seriously and didn't find it amusing. If you were trying to construct a great joke about magnets and sexuality, maybe the delivery is lacking something? If anyone else was paying attention, you could ask them if they thought your joke was funny.
The joke was directed to me and it was hilarious.

I wasn't that offended. But I do make note of strongly cisgendered biased stuff when it comes up. Call me PC that way. Especially in this thread, whose title very much throws down a gauntlet about such issues.
No of course you weren't offended! You just went out of your way to take a joke about magnets, directed at someone else, entirely out of context even in the joke form seriously.
 

Brontosaurie

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Re: Proof that women are becoming masculine and men becoming feminine

The joke was directed to me and it was hilarious.
I appreciate you holding my back but you don't have to squeeze my spine... It was just a casual playful remark.

Or did you really find that hilarious


Elephant
 

The Gopher

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Re: Proof that women are becoming masculine and men becoming feminine

I appreciate you holding my back but you don't have to squeeze my spine... It was just a casual playful remark.

Or did you really find that hilarious


Elephant
No you read me wrong, I found your CIS-scummyness hilarious. How could you be such an awful thoughtless person. :phear:

The joke it's self was a casual playful remark. I was just flirting. ;)
 

bvanevery

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Re: Proof that women are becoming masculine and men becoming feminine

What mental state did you have to be in to first take this seriously and secondly make the mental jumps to come to this conclusion?
The state of reading the thread title? It automatically created hostility for me. I'm like, oh boy, here we go again. Someone's gonna explain how 'scientific' their gender perception biases are.

I wasn't that offended.
No of course you weren't offended!
The keyword is that. Meaning changes when you eliminate it.
 

Sinny91

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Re: Proof that women are becoming masculine and men becoming feminine

I'm not conformatable with all these new gender labels being thrown around these days.

A school in Portsmouth (UK) recently gave 13 year old children a questionnaire to complete and gave them 24 options out of which to select their 'gender preference'.

That could have been minimised to

Do you have a (please circle): PENIS/VAGINA

Who the fuck needs to know anything more than that?

Times are changing, and I personally dont like them. By the time I have kids, one of them will come home from school and declare to me that they want a gender change from female to male, so they can be a gay male and have a test tube baby... Oh and their new names.. Ronaldo!

Like crikey man - some people are born missing arms and legs and you want boo-hoo and piss and moan onabout that God/Nature/The Universe entrusted on you the 'wrong' FULL BODY PARTS :rolleyes:

I was raised with the notion 'you get what you're given, like it or lump it'.

I'm all for gay rights - But I don't believe in messing with nature [on a fundamental level], sacred shit's encoded in us. I personally believe that transgenders and the such are obviously more interested in their own gratification, than anything else on the planet.

Being a woman can suck. Having periods sucks. Having to squat to pee sucks. I imagine giving birth sucks. The social standards women are held by suck. Being expected to like dresses and flowers sucks. Being a man would make my life easier - but guess what, there's more important things to do in life than waste surgeons time sewing a penis onto me for my own gratification.

(from my POV anyway - and I apologise in advance for the hurt feelings of any transgenders reading - The Universe loves you, and it just wishes that you loved yourself as you were born too :) )

If that did actually happen with any child of mine.. I'm unsure how I would react, or if my views would change. I really really don't think that I'd be able to comfortably adjust. I'd try - but it would deffo be awks.
 

bvanevery

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Re: Proof that women are becoming masculine and men becoming feminine

I'm all for gay rights - But I don't believe in messing with nature, sacred shit's encoded in us.
That might be your problem, believing there's some kind of sacred vital element in a biological reproduction process gone awry. I'm sure you don't rail against mentally handicapped people that way, so why should you rail against the transgendered? Probably they suffered an epigenetic event while they were in the womb.

I personally believe that transgenders and the such are obvious more interested in their own gratification, than anything else on the planet.
That's an incredible statement if taken seriously at face value. Really? Seriously? Do you calibrate human intentions and suffering much? I'll call the statement for what it is: a resentful act of bullying, by someone who feels threatened about something.

Being a man would make my life easier - but guess what, there's more important things to do in life than waste surgeons time sewing a penis onto me for my own gratification.
Since you are presumably cisgendered - your brain and genitalia all match up and do what most people expect - on what basis do you presume to understand the mental consciousness of a transgendered person? I'll go back to the mentally handicapped example again. You aren't; so who are you to talk out of your ass, about what it's like to be such?
 

Sinny91

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Re: Proof that women are becoming masculine and men becoming feminine

That might be your problem, believing there's some kind of sacred vital element in a biological reproduction
Not 'might be', it is my problem, transgenders obviously do not have the same moral problem as me.


process gone awry. I'm sure you don't rail against mentally handicapped people that way, so why should you rail against the transgendered?
Sorry, whats the common denominator between mentally handicapped and transgenders?

Probably they suffered an epigenetic event while they were in the womb.
Are you saying transgenders might suffer a mental illness?
I know that argument has been made before.

That's an incredible statement if taken seriously at face value. Really? Seriously? Do you calibrate human intentions and suffering much? I'll call the statement for what it is: a resentful act of bullying, by someone who feels threatened about something.
I doubt this counts as bullying. I'm sharing my opinion. If others don't like it - then that's their problem. (See how we are straightening out's everybody's problems)

Since you are presumably cisgendered - your brain and genitalia all match up and do what most people expect - on what basis do you presume to understand the mental consciousness of a transgendered person?
No, I don't presume to understand. But I can muse.

I'll go back to the mentally handicapped example again. You aren't; so who are you to talk out of your ass, about what it's like to be such?
I'm Sinny, member of INTPf since May 2015.
Young female adult who wanted to express her opinion on the subject of gender and transgender people.

And who sir, are you?
 

bvanevery

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Re: Proof that women are becoming masculine and men becoming feminine

Are you saying transgenders might suffer a mental illness?
I know that argument has been made before.
I am saying their cognition of their body parts, sex drive, and sexual attractions are messed up compared to the rest of us. You cannot possibly know what it's like to be messed up like that. Particularly with people like yourself forming the bulk of society, somehow moralizing about how they're messed up, instead of recognizing the reality that they're born this way and they're not making this shit up.

I'm doubt this counts as bulling. I'm sharing my opinion. If others don't like it - then that's their problem. (She how we are straightening out's everybody's problems)
If you express a bigoted opinion, I will call you a bigot, and try to mobilize others to shame you for having it. I might also try to change your mind as to why you shouldn't be a bigot. I won't ever accept or approve of your bigotry in the name of you being entitled to your opinion. Frankly, in a social sense you're not. Many opinions in society become unacceptable to hold as society marches onwards. Not gonna condone slavery or baby raping either, don't care if it's someone's opinion.

You're basically not entitled to opinions that demean and marginalize other human beings for no fault of their own.

And who sir, are you?
I'm the PC hit squad who will seek to do away with your backwards ideas about human sexuality and gender. God didn't make people this way. God doesn't give an infant Tay Sach's disease either. What you basically express, is a position of fear and cruelty because you have some kind of religious hogwash in you.
 

Sinny91

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Re: Proof that women are becoming masculine and men becoming feminine

I am saying their cognition of their body parts, sex drive, and sexual attractions are messed up compared to the rest of us.
Particularly with people like yourself forming the bulk of society, somehow moralizing about how they're messed up, instead of recognizing the reality that they're born this way and they're not making this shit up.
Considering that it's also your opinion that they are 'messed up' - how are you taking the moral high ground here??


If you express a bigoted opinion, I will call you a bigot
bigot
ˈbɪɡət/
noun
a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions.
Here, I'll throw you a life jacket - you appear to be drowning in hypocrisy; luckily for you, I don't hold many grudges.

and try to mobilize others to shame you for having it.
Bring it on, I make a past time out of confrontation ;)


I might also try to change your mind as to why you shouldn't be a bigot.
I really don't think I fit the description of a bigot.

I won't ever accept or approve of your bigotry in the name of you being entitled to your opinion.
That would be another one of your problems.

Not gonna condone slavery or baby raping either, don't care if it's someone's opinion.
Baby raping and slavery are both action orientated. What action did I call for?
For transgendered people to learn to love them selves? aha.

You're basically not entitled to opinions that demean and marginalize other human beings for no fault of their own.
You have no agency to declare or infringe upon what I believe I am entitled too. It all happens in my world. Look up 'bigot' again. As to 'no fault of their own' .. That's the aspect I find debatable.

I'm the PC hit squad who will seek to do away with your backwards ideas about human sexuality and gender.
You're wasting your time trust me.

God didn't make people this way. God doesn't give an infant Tay Sach's disease either. What you basically express, is a position of fear and cruelty because you have some kind of religious hogwash in you.
Perhaps, perhaps not. That's the point.
 

bvanevery

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Re: Proof that women are becoming masculine and men becoming feminine

Considering that it's also your opinion that they are 'messed up' - how are you taking the moral high ground here??
Because I listen to their voice and don't moralize at them about what they're experiencing. If they say they think sex reassignment surgery will fix them, I take it seriously. I don't impose some kind of religious hogwash framework on their experience. I don't accuse them of making it all up. I don't bully them by saying they are entitled, feeling superior to others, asking excessive things from society, etc. I don't marginalize them.

You do. You are wrong to do so.

Baby raping and slavery are both action orientated. What action did I call for?
For transgendered people to learn to love them selves? aha.
You call for denying them medical services, which might actually fix their problems. You attempt to silence their voice, and replace it with your own. You impose your ego and your value judgment on what their life should be like, what their consciousness of it should be, and how they should be dealing with it. All with no basis of personal experience of "standing in their shoes" whatsoever!

You have no agency to declare or infringe upon what I believe I am entitled too.
People use the force of law to defend other people's freedom where they have to. Maintaining those bulwarks of freedom, means occasionally squashing / making an example of, people who hold opinions that would seek to undermine and dismantle the anti-discrimination laws that have been advanced in society so far.

I of course won't change your mind, now. I am but 1 person and your ego is of course going to win, in any 1:1 situation. Until possibly some other time in your life, and often not even then. But if I am 1 person to give you a tongue lashing about this, and thousands more manage to do it, we might wear you down someday. We may also plant the seeds of doubt about your own current beliefs and opinions, which may germinate at some point. So this is why I will speak against your opinions, that the world may slowly change.

There is also usually an audience watching the opinions, deciding what is right and wrong.

As to 'no fault of their own' .. That's the aspect I find debatable.
You can debate it all you like, and I know your ego and youth (if your profile is correct) will compel you to work through all the details "for yourself". You have to discover the world anew for yourself; everyone does. But I already know you are Wrong [TM] about this particular stance you take towards the transgendered. To accuse them of fault, as to how they feel about their condition, and what they think should be done about it... patient people can have the debate with you, and may do so, in order to open your eyes. But at some point if we can't convince, we use law.

By analogy, Free Speech in the USA doesn't mean we won't boycott you, ridicule you, make petitions to have you thrown out of office, get you fired, etc. Your opinions have consequences.
 

Brontosaurie

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Re: Proof that women are becoming masculine and men becoming feminine

Calling transsexuality a disease is not disrespectful. It's simply descriptive.

Calling the condition a lie and invalidating the experience of all transsexuals is.

This is not difficult.
 

bvanevery

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Re: Proof that women are becoming masculine and men becoming feminine

Calling transsexuality a disease is not disrespectful. It's simply descriptive.
I'm not sure it's accurate though. I'd have to look up prevailing medical usage of the term "disease".

Calling the condition a lie and invalidating the experience of all transsexuals is.

This is not difficult.
Totally agree.
 

Brontosaurie

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Re: Proof that women are becoming masculine and men becoming feminine

I'm not sure it's accurate though. I'd have to look up prevailing medical usage of the term "disease".
It's called a disorder or dysphoria in psychiatry, so that would perhaps be more conventionally accurate.

Psychiatric nomenclature is highly political though. I see no factual or logical reason why we can't call the condition a disease.
 

Sinny91

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Re: Proof that women are becoming masculine and men becoming feminine

Because I listen to their voice and don't moralize at them about what they're experiencing.
Well I wasn't addressing this imagined 'them', I was addressing the imagined members of INTPf.

If they say they think sex reassignment surgery will fix them, I take it seriously.
Good for you. If somebody came to me and said that to me, I'd take them seriously too, I maybe wouldn't believe them, but I'd take them seriously - because they believe it.

I don't impose some kind of religious hogwash framework on their experience.
And how 'imposing' can a forum post be?

impose
ɪmˈpəʊz/Submit
verb
1.
force (an unwelcome decision or ruling) on someone.
"the decision was theirs and was not imposed on them by others"
synonyms: foist, force, thrust, inflict, obtrude, press, urge; More
2.
take advantage of someone by demanding their attention or commitment.

I don't accuse them of making it all up
That's far removed from what I said. I said I think they do it for gratification, in which language does that resemble 'making it all up'

I don't bully them by saying they are entitled, feeling superior to others, asking excessive things from society, etc. I don't marginalize them.
Good for you.

You do. You are wrong to do so.
Lul. INTP thought police ? Who would have thought.

You call for denying them medical services, which might actually fix their problems.
I did no such thing. Now you are just making me out to be, what you need me to be, in order for you to get your useless point across.

You attempt to silence their voice, and replace it with your own.
??!! when did this happen?? lool.


You impose your ego and your value judgment on what their life should be like, what their consciousness of it should be, and how they should be dealing with it. All with no basis of personal experience of "standing in their shoes" whatsoever!
Fuck me, the only person being imposing in their opinions right now, is you.

People use the force of law to defend other people's freedom where they have to. Maintaining those bulwarks of freedom, means occasionally squashing / making an example of, people who hold opinions that would seek to undermine and dismantle the anti-discrimination laws that have been advanced in society so far.
Dude, my opinions aren't set in stone. They are subject to change - but belligerence on your part inst going to entice me to your side of the fence any sooner.

I of course won't change your mind, now. I am but 1 person and your ego..
Has the resilience of 10 men :p

is of course going to win, in any 1:1 situation
You can't argue with somebody who doesn't want to argue.
Infuriating at time's isn't it.

Until possibly some other time in your life, and often not even then.
Yay, me!

But if I am 1 person to give you a tongue lashing about this, and thousands more manage to do it, we might wear you down someday.
This is funny..

We may also plant the seeds of doubt about your own current beliefs and opinions, which may germinate at some point.
Cool, my brain is a sponge I'm here to learn.

So this is why I will speak against your opinions, that the world may slowly change.
Hear, Hear!

There is also usually an audience watching the opinions, deciding what is right and wrong.
I separate myself from the audience.

You can debate it all you like, and I know your ego and youth (if your profile is correct) will compel you to work through all the details "for yourself".
Actually, I'll swiftly be returning to my INTP 8w7 thread, and probably forget we ever had this conversation, until I stumble upon it next.

You have to discover the world anew for yourself; everyone does. But I already know you are Wrong [TM] about this particular stance you take towards the transgendered.
So subjective..

To accuse them of fault, as to how they feel about their condition, and what they think should be done about it...
I don't think I really accused any one of anything in particluar..
I shared my opinions, leading with; 'I think' - all very me orientated.

I'm not conformable with all these new gender labels being thrown around these days.

A school in Portsmouth (UK) recently gave 13 year old children a questionnaire to complete and gave them 24 options out of which to select their 'gender preference'.

That could have been minimised to

Do you have a (please circle): PENIS/VAGINA

Who the fuck needs to know anything more than that?

Times are changing, and I personally dont like them. By the time I have kids, one of them will come home from school and declare to me that they want a gender change from female to male, so they can be a gay male and have a test tube baby... Oh and their new names.. Ronaldo!

Like crikey man - some people are born missing arms and legs and you want boo-hoo and piss and moan onabout that God/Nature/The Universe entrusted on you the 'wrong' FULL BODY PARTS :rolleyes:

I was raised with the notion 'you get what you're given, like it or lump it'.

I'm all for gay rights - But I don't believe in messing with nature [on a fundamental level], sacred shit's encoded in us. I personally believe that transgenders and the such are obviously more interested in their own gratification, than anything else on the planet.

Being a woman can suck. Having periods sucks. Having to squat to pee sucks. I imagine giving birth sucks. The social standards women are held by suck. Being expected to like dresses and flowers sucks. Being a man would make my life easier - but guess what, there's more important things to do in life than waste surgeons time sewing a penis onto me for my own gratification.

(from my POV anyway - and I apologise in advance for the hurt feelings of any transgenders reading - The Universe loves you, and it just wishes that you loved yourself as you were born too :) )

If that did actually happen with any child of mine.. I'm unsure how I would react, or if my views would change. I really really don't think that I'd be able to comfortably adjust. I'd try - but it would deffo be awks.
You're right.. My opinion is so damn imposing - I'll be giving Hitler a run for his money any day now. :rolleyes:

patient people can have the debate with you, and may do so, in order to open your eyes. But at some point if we can't convince, we use law.
??

By analogy, Free Speech in the USA doesn't mean we won't boycott you, ridicule you, make petitions to have you thrown out of office, get you fired, etc. Your opinions have consequences.
Once again, you're wasting your time aiming your anger at me.
It'll bounce off all day long.
 

The Gopher

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Re: Proof that women are becoming masculine and men becoming feminine

The one thing I still don't understand when it comes to transgender. Is how they can presume to know something that's impossible. Due to not understanding it I cast no judgement, and since if I did understand I wouldn't be able to cast judgement then I'm totally on everyone's side both against and for. :D

How can you feel like a male as a female or feel like a female as a male. As a male I have no idea what being male feels like and I have no idea what being female feels like. In my imagination since a young age the person who was me in my head often changed genders with no actual change in personality. Maybe this is causing the confusion.

If you are physically male, then obviously whatever you feel like IS male. Now it may be what a male who has something happen to in birth feels like but it's still technically all you can know. It's almost entirely in your head.

That said, the fact that it's in the head doesn't invalidate the condition. Everything is in our heads. It's like saying depression is just in your head so get over it it's silly. Both are fundamentally illogical but as a fundamentally (seemingly) illogical race I'm sure we can relate. (Side note: Nobody is technically illogical as a person however they may be actually illogical, or technically illogical in a situation)

I want to be very clear because there is often a "reverse bigot" (aka normal bigot) thing that goes on. Because I do not understand this does not make me a horrible human being or a bigot. If I was not to understand why someone likes guns but not actively hate or be intolerant to people for liking guns that doesn't make me a bigot. Bvanevery is particularly projecting bigotry onto people. Because he sees actual bigots in the world and himself is a bigot to people who don't understand/hold a different view from his perspective he sees everyone who doesn't understand/holds a different view as bigot.

It's straw-manning up the wazoo in this thread. Lets say someone says that one of Hitlers policies wasn't bad. That doesn't mean that person suddenly turns into a Jew hating homicidal maniac what want's to murder millions of people.

It's frustrating! I just wanted to write a post explaining my thoughts on the issue explaining what I don't understand and then respectfully listening to people who may know more than I. It's frustrating that I was required to write several paragraphs explaining that I don't judge people, to write a paragraph on how some people in the thread aren't acting in a fair and reasonable argumentative manner. When all it comes down to is.

"I don't understand how people who can not possibly have the experience or understanding of what the other gender actually feels like when they only have their own experiences with their own gender to go off. Could think they know well enough to believe they feel like the other gender. Please help me understand." (or sex whatever the word for the physical side is now days)
 

Yellow

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Re: Proof that women are becoming masculine and men becoming feminine

"I don't understand how people who can not possibly have the experience or understanding of what the other gender actually feels like when they only have their own experiences with their own gender to go off. Could think they know well enough to believe they feel like the other gender. Please help me understand." (or sex whatever the word for the physical side is now days)
I am not transgender, though I may be in spirit (I'm totally gonna leave that hanging with no explanation). However, I think there are things that one can know without experiencing them physically.

Here's what comes to mind for me:
Children normally imprint especially from same-gender adults. This means that a woman's behavior/role is going to imprint more strongly on girls, and a man's on boys. A small number of children are more ambivalent in this regard, and a small number of children, for whatever reason (physical or psychological, it really doesn't matter at this point, as it's affecting "normal" brain development) imprint paradoxically.

So while those children/maturing adults, who identify more strongly with the opposite gender, would not need to know how it feels (physically, mentally, or otherwise) to be another sex to feel like (identify as) the opposite sex.
 

The Gopher

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Re: Proof that women are becoming masculine and men becoming feminine

I am not transgender, though I may be in spirit (I'm totally gonna leave that hanging with no explanation). However, I think there are things that one can know without experiencing them physically.

Here's what comes to mind for me:
Children normally imprint especially from same-gender adults. This means that a woman's behavior/role is going to imprint more strongly on girls, and a man's on boys. A small number of children are more ambivalent in this regard, and a small number of children, for whatever reason (physical or psychological, it really doesn't matter at this point, as it's affecting "normal" brain development) imprint paradoxically.

So while those children/maturing adults, who identify more strongly with the opposite gender, would not need to know how it feels (physically, mentally, or otherwise) to be another sex to feel like (identify as) the opposite sex.
Sure, it would seem I'm linking the physical to the psychological making (in my head) anything that happens psychologically still a male thing. For example (in my mind currently) if a child is effected paradoxically. That's just how some males are. Males with the "behavior roles of women" are in my mind simply males with a different role to what's considered normal. Which in a sense is disconnecting the psychological from the physical. So I'm saying if you're physically male and psychologically female you are actually psychologically male who is just has a limited perception of what males are.

It's the limitation of psychological gender and assumptions about the opposite psychological gender that I still don't understand. Which is different from actually physically wanting to be the different gender which is something I totally relate to and understand completely.
 

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bvanevery, you've initiated this derail. It would be useful in the future if you learnt how to respect others' opinions on various topics instead of starting an ideological crusade against them in a way that devolves into unproductive name-calling and mud slinging. If you wish to show some ideas are incorrect, do it in a respectful manner that addresses the subject and offers arguments to which other people can respond. Making personal attacks against them doesn't progress the discussion in any constructive way, if anything it may provoke others to reply in kind.

bvanevery, Bronto and Sinny, if you wish to react to others' posts in the future it would be wise to avoid escalation in your replies to one another. You are all contentious personalities eager to stand up or aggressively defend your posts. There's nothing wrong in doing so, as long as you can maintain civility. If you read someone else's comments directed at you, there's no need to reflect the same level of hostility that they project.
 

Hadoblado

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Re: Proof that women are becoming masculine and men becoming feminine

I'm not conformatable with all these new gender labels being thrown around these days.

A school in Portsmouth (UK) recently gave 13 year old children a questionnaire to complete and gave them 24 options out of which to select their 'gender preference'.

That could have been minimised to

Do you have a (please circle): PENIS/VAGINA

Who the fuck needs to know anything more than that?

Times are changing, and I personally dont like them. By the time I have kids, one of them will come home from school and declare to me that they want a gender change from female to male, so they can be a gay male and have a test tube baby... Oh and their new names.. Ronaldo!

Like crikey man - some people are born missing arms and legs and you want boo-hoo and piss and moan onabout that God/Nature/The Universe entrusted on you the 'wrong' FULL BODY PARTS :rolleyes:

I was raised with the notion 'you get what you're given, like it or lump it'.

I'm all for gay rights - But I don't believe in messing with nature [on a fundamental level], sacred shit's encoded in us. I personally believe that transgenders and the such are obviously more interested in their own gratification, than anything else on the planet.

Being a woman can suck. Having periods sucks. Having to squat to pee sucks. I imagine giving birth sucks. The social standards women are held by suck. Being expected to like dresses and flowers sucks. Being a man would make my life easier - but guess what, there's more important things to do in life than waste surgeons time sewing a penis onto me for my own gratification.

(from my POV anyway - and I apologise in advance for the hurt feelings of any transgenders reading - The Universe loves you, and it just wishes that you loved yourself as you were born too :) )

If that did actually happen with any child of mine.. I'm unsure how I would react, or if my views would change. I really really don't think that I'd be able to comfortably adjust. I'd try - but it would deffo be awks.
I don't want to rekindle the fire, but this seems misinformed.

Sex =/= gender

Gratification =/= Removing dissatisfaction

The people missing arms and legs often try to change that. Do you think a prosthetic arm for a child with none of their own is against their own best interest? It is after all, attaining what they were not born with?

What about tattoos?

Piercings?

Drugs use?

Wheelchairs?

Medicine in general?

Because if you're okay with any of this, your 'go with what you're born with' position doesn't feel very consistent. I know you've mentioned drugs a lot here. You know nobody is born high right? Do you equate a voluntary alteration to mind-state with a lack of love for one's natural mind-state?

I also don't understand how you could think that their interest in their condition and the 'gratification' they achieve in their attempts to overcome it must be more important to them than anything else in the world. That's a mighty broad brush to paint millions of people with.

You are not wasting a surgeons time. They get payed. You pay them. It's your money to 'waste'. They will still be able to complete their down-payment on their solid gold Mercedes. No tears need be spent on them.
 

Sinny91

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In my mind, yea - sex organs = gender.

The rest is for the psych team, imo
(My confused thoughts are similar to Gophers)

I'm not satisfied with my use of the word gratification, nor I have fully formed my concept - but as you can I see, I got distracted defending myself against the notion of bigotry.

I suppose it all come's down to where we individually 'draw the line'..
In the UK we now have a new church based around worshiping spaghetti :storks:

In other recent news, (which I can't be bothered to link to), there is a young adult woman in the UK proclaiming she's a cat trapped in a human body - and she demands everybody treat her as a cat (no doubt in life she'll have surgery to 'become one' - as has happened else where around the globe); And there's a middle aged fat man somewhere in the UK who is convinced that's he's a 6 year old child trapped in a grown mans body.

Now, in future.. Would society be expected to start accepting this as the 'norm' ..

Where on earth do we draw the line on what's 'normal' and what's 'bat shit crazy' ?

I suppose if I had to stick to a hypothesis, I'd stick with the mental illness one. But, there are transgenders out there who proclaim they are mentally fit, and to be labelled mentally unfit is incorrect and offensive - so what's the explanation in that case? It's at that point I start entertaining my half formed 'gratification' theory.
 

The Gopher

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Yeah on gender/sex we're using the wrong terminology obviously. I tend to use gender to describe sex since for most of my life it was used interchangeably.

Apart from that I think although I'm not sure that our confused thoughts may be different ones since I understand wanting to change body I just don't understand how you can say you're mentally the other gender psychologically without limiting your current one unfairly.

Maybe it's just simpler to say you're psychologically female (gender) than say you're a male that just happens to identify with stereotypical female gender/psychology either because of a physical or psychological condition, and that while still technically being within the male spectrum of gender/psychologically due to your sex being male defining that, you would prefer to change body to match societies perceived preconception.
 

Hadoblado

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If gender equals sex then obviously it doesn't make sense that a person's gender is out of sync with their sex. If you don't acknowledge that they are different your opinion holds no weight because you're talking about a tautology (sex = sex), and that's now what the discussion is about.

I dunno about these other people that think they're cats and little girls and whatnot. Do they have to fall into the category of either normal or crazy? They're fairly obviously not normal, but I don't think that makes them crazy. I would be hesitant to afford them the full privilege of their preferred identity (I wouldn't have a fully grown man going to school alongside my daughter).
 

Brontosaurie

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"Gender" pertains to stereotypes.

"Sex identity" is more applicable here.
 

Sinny91

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Yeah on gender/sex we're using the wrong terminology obviously. I tend to use gender to describe sex since for most of my life it was used interchangeably.

Apart from that I think although I'm not sure that our confused thoughts may be different ones since I understand wanting to change body
Well, so do I to an extent - as I wrote earlier - I can see the benefits of being a male, and sometime's - even if it's just fleeting, there have been situations in which I have just wished in that moment to be a man.

Most people accuse me of 'thinking like a bloke'. I go against the female gender stereotype in many ways... But having said that, I'm perfectly comfortable being a woman too. In all ways.

Anyway, I suppose my point is - I can see the allure, but not enough as to mutilate myself. I don't mean that to intend harsh, but my thoughts are quickly escaping me.

I just don't understand how you can say you're mentally the other gender psychologically without limiting your current one unfairly.
Yea, that's the bit I was thinking too..

Maybe it's just simpler to say you're psychologically female (gender) than say you're a male that just happens to identify with stereotypical female gender/psychology either because of a physical or psychological condition, and that while still technically being within the male spectrum of gender/psychologically due to your sex being male defining that, you would prefer to change body to match societies perceived preconception.
This hurts my head.. the subject in general..

To clarify on the gender = sex

I don't think there should have been a 'gender preference' option.
I think it should be limited to 'gender' , as in medically.

As far as I know, thats Male/Female/That mixed one in the middle - and whatever other criteria are in the biological medical journals

I don't like the idea of the state sponsoring education and ultimately propaganda on unorthodox man made biological gender ideologies- (or whatever) .. As I say, apart from the fact that I don't fully understand it, which does incite fear and distrust even if only on an unconcious level, it does also go against a fundamental belief or notion which I currently do hold ... I hope we do make breakthroughs in our understandings of these issue's in the future, and hopefully my dissonance will be appeased.
 

The Gopher

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If gender equals sex then obviously it doesn't make sense that a person's gender is out of sync with their sex. If you don't acknowledge that they are different your opinion holds no weight because you're talking about a tautology (sex = sex), and that's now what the discussion is about.
Just in case you were talking to me, I understand the difference I just use gender instead of sex in writing still because it's ingrained. So it requires context to work out what I'm talking about if I mess that up.

"Gender" pertains to stereotypes.

"Sex identity" is more applicable here.
Yeah that makes sense. That said it still raises the question how you can know if your sex identity is wrong if it's all you have to compare with. It does seem still linked to whatever impression you have of the identity of sexes and probably ends up being an internal stereotype anyway... right?

Well, so do I to an extent - as I wrote earlier - I can see the benefits of being a male, and sometime's - even if it's just fleeting, there have been situations in which I have just wished in that moment to be a man. Like if life was a game of Sims, and I could go into the changing rooms and change gender - I might. If I lived in a country which oppressed women - I certainly would.
Oh yeah I would totally be a female. In my field females have an insane advantage and I would have no problem with a female body. My personality wouldn't change in the slightest though. I think that might be my issue. I have no gender or sex identity, at least not in the sense that changing physical gender would be a problem.
 

Brontosaurie

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Yeah that makes sense. That said it still raises the question how you can know if your sex identity is wrong if it's all you have to compare with. It does seem still linked to whatever impression you have of the identity of sexes and probably ends up being an internal stereotype anyway... right?
Adding to what Yellow said, my bet is on genes, replication errors or prenatal hormonal disturbances affecting brain development, subsequently influencing social learning as the opposite sex instinctively becomes a more natural role model. It makes sense that there would be a mixture of biological and social factors. We are naturally socially constructed beings.
 

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Re: Proof that women are becoming masculine and men becoming feminine

The one thing I still don't understand when it comes to transgender. Is how they can presume to know something that's impossible.
I think it's more to do with to be, then to know. A baby just 'knows' how to eat. A woman just 'knows' how to be a woman. It's not something that requires thought or contemplation for the individual. It's more something that comes off as obvious to others.
 

The Gopher

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Re: Proof that women are becoming masculine and men becoming feminine

I think it's more to do with to be, then to know. A baby just 'knows' how to eat. A woman just 'knows' how to be a woman. It's not something that requires thought or contemplation for the individual. It's more something that comes off as obvious to others.
So it's instinctual? I must confess you lost me with your phrasing of the first sentence.
 

crippli

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Re: Proof that women are becoming masculine and men becoming feminine

So it's instinctual? I must confess you lost me with your phrasing of the first sentence.
weeell. Being, and describing how to be are two different things. Thinking/feeling about what to do, and doing it are also not the same.

My point is that a woman is a woman due to what she does, look, talkwhatever. Obviously, a woman is a description, so the description is not the same as when she does it.

So basically, one person you observe will do, talk, behave in a manner that will fit enough of your idea of a woman. ergo, this person is a woman. Maybe you will not sexually label this person when you see it. If so, this person is neither a woman, man or both. But most people will do this labeling on first sight of a person, since most people are hung up on sex. Therefor I've found it best to just accept that this labeling occurs constantly.
 

The Gopher

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Re: Proof that women are becoming masculine and men becoming feminine

weeell. Being, and describing how to be are two different things. Thinking/feeling about what to do, and doing it are also not the same.

My point is that a woman is a woman due to what she does, look, talkwhatever. Obviously, a woman is a description, so the description is not the same as when she does it.

So basically, one person you observe will do, talk, behave in a manner that will fit enough of your idea of a woman. ergo, this person is a woman. Maybe you will not sexually label this person when you see it. If so, this person is neither a woman, man or both. But most people will do this labeling on first sight of a person, since most people are hung up on sex. Therefor I've found it best to just accept that this labeling occurs constantly.
I still don't entirely understand your post. If what you say about labeling is the deal then isn't that back to my original issue? If I decided I'm a cat according to my own personal dictionary yet I'm biologically male am I not just a male who think's he's a cat in the mind of others? I could act talk and behave in a manner that fits the idea of a cat but I'll still be 6 foot tall and incredibly handsome. ;)

So if whoever writes the dictionary decides reality are only people who act or are naturally like the majority's description of female (who are biologically male) able to be transsexual? What about people who say they are female when everyone associates else them with a male? Does society decide what's the case or the individual? If it's the latter screw you guys I'm a dragon.
 

crippli

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I think identity is a combined effect of feelings and feedback. If you feel like a cat and your lover feel like you are a cat, the same with the people who knows you. Then you should be given cat food and maybe stroking instead of sex.

Naa. You are not transsexual if you come off as a woman. Then you are woman. Transsexual is more of a medical term between the doctor and the patient during a sexual transition. I don't think the term is particularly relevant for anyone else.
 

Jennywocky

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Cat and dragons and transsexuals, oh my...

To just pull this back a slight bit into the realm of harder science, have you guys ever heard of intersexed conditions? There's actually a pathway by which someone's body can be somewhere "in-between" so that gender is not obviously either wholly male or wholly female; sometimes for whatever reason (whether a genetic abnormality, or some kind of hormonal influx -- or lack of one -- triggered by environmental conditions). a baby can be born with apparent physical abnormalities or simply abnormalities that show up around the time of puberty.

The brain is also a physical organ that shows some quantifiable differences between male and female populations (due to hormonal impact), although the specifics of gender expression in society can be impacted by cultural factors. There are differences between white matter and gray matter and the BSTc region, for example in transsexual men and transsexual women that is not what's expected for someone of their apparent physical birth gender.

Meanwhile, in studies of gay men, it seems more probable for a gay male to have older brothers, with the supposition being that the mother's body environment in some way has changed, leading to some kind of alteration in hormal chemistry that contributes to a programming preference change in the baby. (We already know from experiments many decades past that changing the hormonal flux in rats, for example, during a certain window of gestation, leads to preference flips in the born offspring; males behave as females, and females behave as males, which to the rat is confined to sexual behavior.)

My point is simply that we're already aware of intersexed conditions in the gross physical anatomy, and we don't yet understand the brain but have detected anonamlies in this area, and we're already aware of trans and gay experience throughout human culture after human culture for centuries; this isn't a "new" thing, aside from finally developing surgeries over the last century or so that don't kill the patient. I see some people here willing to argue with straight faces that plastics are "feminimizing" the human race, yet suddenly not willing to commit to the possibility that hormonal shifts triggered environmentally during certain windows of development could impact a fetus or child?

MEANWHILE: Are we aware of any hormonal/genetic pathways that will enable a baby to physically be born as a dragon or a tiger? What documented cases justify this comparison? Are these claims actually equivalent in terms of viability? What's the range of serious reporting of this issue, if any?

There's also casework that suggests gender sense is more inborn, not something that can be imposed reliably by cultural influence. I only mention David Reimer, because he's one of the best -documented cases out there; he was an XY born with (seemingly) a healthy male body, whose penis was destroyed in a circumcision incident. At the time, science was favoring the "Blank slate" theory, so the doctors and parents fashioned him the externals of a vagina and he was raised as a girl named Brenda and given appropriate medical treatment for that to persist, but it never stuck; despite physical anatomy changes, Brenda behaved like a boy, thought she was a boy, and wanted to grow up and live as a boy, to an obsessive degree, no matter how mum everyone was and how much her parent tried to socialize her as a female. She was angry and confused until her parents finally broken down when she was around age 13 and told her the truth, and then it all made sense. The supposition here is that there is simply something that generates identity besides the obvious anatomy itself, and it can occur during development. Again, I'm not aware of a brain differentiation that would generate a cat or a dragon, although please volunteer the studies and science if you've got them.

It looks like there is expanding study on gender identity in children, and as of Jan 2015 studies were showing gender identity fixation in transkids is equivalent to gender identity fixation in cis kids. More studies will be needed, but it's suggesting that the identity is rooted at this point rather than shifting or unsure. What drives it? They're still examining that.

http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/news/releases/transgender-kids-show-consistent-gender-identity-across-measures.html

Has anyone here thought about researching mental illness comorbidity rates among various subgroups? Mental illnesses can often be related and/or appear together.
2013 study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24275005
The aim of the present study was to evaluate the presence of psychiatric diseases/symptoms in transsexual patients and to compare psychiatric distress related to the hormonal intervention in a one year follow-up assessment. We investigated 118 patients before starting the hormonal therapy and after about 12 months. We used the SCID-I to determine major mental disorders and functional impairment. We used the Zung Self-Rating Anxiety Scale (SAS) and the Zung Self-Rating Depression Scale (SDS) for evaluating self-reported anxiety and depression. We used the Symptom Checklist 90-R (SCL-90-R) for assessing self-reported global psychological symptoms. Seventeen patients (14%) had a DSM-IV-TR axis I psychiatric comorbidity. At enrollment the mean SAS score was above the normal range. The mean SDS and SCL-90-R scores were on the normal range except for SCL-90-R anxiety subscale. When treated, patients reported lower SAS, SDS and SCL-90-R scores, with statistically significant differences. Psychiatric distress and functional impairment were present in a significantly higher percentage of patients before starting the hormonal treatment than after 12 months (50% vs. 17% for anxiety; 42% vs. 23% for depression; 24% vs. 11% for psychological symptoms; 23% vs. 10% for functional impairment). The results revealed that the majority of transsexual patients have no psychiatric comorbidity, suggesting that transsexualism is not necessarily associated with severe comorbid psychiatric findings. The condition, however, seemed to be associated with subthreshold anxiety/depression, psychological symptoms and functional impairment. Moreover, treated patients reported less psychiatric distress. Therefore, hormonal treatment seemed to have a positive effect on transsexual patients' mental health.
Earlier study: http://new-gallery-of-art.com/pdf/TScomorbidity.pdf

As far as any appearances of depression or anxiety in the list... not really surprising where they do occur.

At least we could be reviewing actual case assessments rather than 'guessing'... even if data would still have to be surveyed.
I guess I should not be surprised to see INTPs arguing a purely theoretical case drawn from gross observations rather than actually studying empirical data on the topic; it's just odd how heated and entrenched it has become without much actual quantification being included.

There's also an obvious bias against what I guess would be considered "authorities" in the matter; in this case, there has been a large shift in the medical community after about 50-80 years of study and data accumulation on the topic, but the way these arguments have proceeded in this thread, the unspoken credo is that the medical establishment must be crazy because they are allowing crazy people to embody their crazy self-identifications. No, the whole world is not going crazy; but you can't just draw conclusions from the outside, you have to dig and study to see how much more complicated the situation is.

Personally, I can understand if the rate of change in society is confusing and frustrating people -- same-sex marriage, bathrooms under fire, women's liberation, minority rights, immigration, terrorism, etc. -- everything in Western culture used to be so orderly and "follow the rules" and now it seems like no one has respect for what has seemed logical and rational and workable in the past. Maybe you're disturbed by the amount of "fluff" and irrational behavior in the world. And maybe some changes might be driven by personal selfishness or disregard or "special snowflake" syndrome, or people who want to be affirmed rather than dealing with "reality''; all of us have stories that we've shared here, about family, friends, workplaces, etc., we are frustrated by.

But that does not mean all of them are. Some changes in society accrue after bodies of evidence show a need for them to shift. A lot of this tangent has just been people "winging" it, which is why at least one member labeled it as bigotry. Is there much left in anyone's contributions so far, once we drain away what's just surface-level observation and emotional reaction? At least if you're going to discuss it, bother to look at why the shift in the medical community has occurred rather than just blaming it on politics or stupidity or insanity.
 

Sinny91

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Awesome post.

In regards to this:
MEANWHILE: Are we aware of any hormonal/genetic pathways that will enable a baby to physically be born as a dragon or a tiger? What documented cases justify this comparison?
I suppose I was leaning more towards the view that 'it's' (trans) a pyche issue - and was making comparisons betweenn perceived crazy people and their crazy notions.
 

Jennywocky

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Awesome post.

In regards to this:
I suppose I was leaning more towards the view that 'it's' (trans) a pyche issue - and was making comparisons betweenn perceived crazy people and their crazy notions.
I know that's what you were doing.

My question was whether that was a reliable way to approach it (which is why comorbidity can play a role in teasing that out).
 

Sinny91

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No, it was an off-hand way to approach it..

Sheesh, you bring out the the confessionals and Hail Mary's in me aha.

(To be specific, it's one way to approach it - out of many)
 

Cherry Cola

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Why would you speak out on a subject and against a group of people which you dont know anything about? Compare them with crazy cat people? You just found a suitable outlet and got to spewing, nevermind that you do it on other people. Did you just suppose there are no trans people on the forum or people that know other trans people and haven't seen firsthand the amount of flac they get, that they aren't crazy and just want to live in a way which allows them to stand themselves?

Caitlyn and other people in the media as well as the current wave of feminism and its bizarre amount of pronouns=I know all about this shit lets hate on it or what? :S Its nice that someone came along and explained shit to you but that shouldn't have been necessary in the first place, if you're gonna write a post like 12# (ergo bitter, angry sensationalism largely directed at a specific group of people) you need to know what you are talking about.

Also for an INTP your posts contains very little in terms of reasoning, and very much in terms of knee-jerking and personal beliefs. It reeks of egocentricity. Especially the part were you decide that the inconveniences you suffer as a female means you understand the experience of being transgendered but unlike transgender people you aren't gonna waste somebody's elses time and money. Such metacognitive ability. Ugh.
 

Sinny91

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Why would you speak out on a subject and against a group of people which you dont know anything about?
Because I can and that should be reason enough.
I didn't set out to be malicious, I set out to instigate a conversion; which has ultimately lead to a couple of good posts from which I can learn.

PC hit squad need to stfu.
 

Cherry Cola

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Because I can and that should be reason enough.
I didn't set out to be malicious, I set out to instigate a conversion; which has ultimately lead to a couple of good posts from which I can learn.

PC hit squad need to stfu.
Hello Toddler
 

Sinny91

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Second thread in which Cherryface has felt the need to address me needlessly with an irritating one liner. She's trying to annoy me.
 
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