• OK, it's on.
  • Please note that many, many Email Addresses used for spam, are not accepted at registration. Select a respectable Free email.
  • Done now. Domine miserere nobis.

Hate

Beliefofmine

The eternal blue sky
Local time
Today 6:24 AM
Joined
Aug 14, 2021
Messages
46
-->
Can you fight hate and intolerance with hate and intolerance for hate and intolerance?
 

Cognisant

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 1:24 AM
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
9,449
-->
No but it helps to understand it, I'm no fan of religion but there's a particular biblical quote I like "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" which I think beautifully illustrates how we ought to see the bad in ourselves before we judge the bad in others, not to make a comparison but rather to empathize with them.


Daryl Davis hates racism, but he doesn't hate the racists.
 

mikrokosmos

Redshirt
Local time
Today 12:24 PM
Joined
Jul 18, 2021
Messages
20
-->
Location
United States
Agree with Cognisant. A sense of hate and intolerance comes from skewed perspectives and/or strong emotional responses based on past experiences (or simply what we know). Both of these can be addressed with empathy because we all have gone through such thoughts or feelings at some point in our lives, and in other people it is only another manifestation. I think that most people act according to what they believe is correct or just and that very few people act out of purely "evil" intent. So where do these wrong ideas and attitudes come from and how can we address them? Using empathy and sound reasoning. If we take the trouble to understand someone rather than brushing them off as simply "the bad guy," we form connections instead of breaking ties to humanity.

That being said, in response to hate and intolerance I think we should not not tolerate them (as in, turning a blind eye to hate and intolerance). It's all a matter of how we go about it.
 

Sanguine

Redshirt
Local time
Today 6:24 AM
Joined
Jan 17, 2021
Messages
4
-->
I'm not sure what you mean by "for hate and intolerance". I can't tell if you just mistyped or making a joke, but anyway....I would say the question is loaded.

I've always disliked that sort of thinking
"you can't fight fire with fire"
It's an abuse of the deficiencies of language and reeks of pretentious mysticism.
Of course adding fire to fire just makes "more fire" but at the same time I've never heard of a single war that was won by not returning fire on the enemy...except maybe the Great Emu War.

Of course I'm not saying hate and intolerance is good, I just dislike the framing.

Daryl is a great example of how flawed this sort of thinking is and why there's nothing admirable about it. It's one thing to be tolerant and forgiving out of strength, it's another to dedicate a large portion of your life solely to befriending people who are hostile to you. Anyone who does that sort of thing is suspicious as hell, and they usually only do it because they are dull, self-hating, fearful or some combination of the three. Same goes for (redacted) people who literally prostrate themselves out of "love" and "empathy" for (redacted). They don't do it out of love and tolerance, they do it because they're either stupid enough to think it means anything or scared or otherwise plagued by so much existential guilt that it's made them lose any sense of (redacted).

I also disagree that love and tolerance increase understanding. Tolerance is a decision to allow unpleasant stimulus to run amok and love is by nature an elevation of subjectivity and it willingly blinds itself to the outside world. Saying that love and tolerance increase understanding is like watching a blind epileptic have a seizure and insisting that they're being enlightened. Which is once again very mystical thinking. Thats not to say love, tolerance, or even mysticism is bad(though crude mysticism is terrible) I just don't think they increase understanding as a matter of course.
....

So to answer the question, it would depend on what you mean. If you are talking about fighting hate and intolerance in the abstract I would say the answer is no but that shouldn't be confused with action in the outside world. Theres no such thing as fighting hate and intolerance in the concrete sense. In the physical, outward or political sense what people fight isn't hate or intolerance but actions which they themselves hate and do not tolerate.
 

Beliefofmine

The eternal blue sky
Local time
Today 6:24 AM
Joined
Aug 14, 2021
Messages
46
-->
Daryl Davis hates racism, but he doesn't hate the racists.

PERFECTO
I think Daryl Davis' approach is the minority, and not what I asked. I know there's alternatives, but I'm more concerned with actually using hate and intolerance to fight hate and intolerance. Which is what we primarily see today, and I don't think it works.
 

Animekitty

baby marshmallow born today
Local time
Today 5:24 AM
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
7,543
-->
Location
crib
Hate and intolerance usually come from being wronged in some way. Politically we assume others are wrong on purpose which is irritating. It having a thin shell.
 

Cognisant

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 1:24 AM
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
9,449
-->
I think Daryl Davis' approach is the minority, and not what I asked. I know there's alternatives, but I'm more concerned with actually using hate and intolerance to fight hate and intolerance. Which is what we primarily see today, and I don't think it works.I've already ranted
I've already ranted about the inherent hypocrisy of "social justice".

Our technology may be advanced but western society lacks a moral education, mistakenly believing it to be the exclusive purview of religion and/or personal belief, consequently our society exhibits moral decision making that is barely above infantile.
 

LOGICZOMBIE

welcome to thought club
Local time
Today 6:24 AM
Joined
Aug 6, 2021
Messages
395
-->
Anyone who does that sort of thing is suspicious as hell, and they usually only do it because they are dull, self-hating, fearful or some combination of the three.

Isn't that like saying, "spending your life healing sick people is dangerous and stupid".
 

LOGICZOMBIE

welcome to thought club
Local time
Today 6:24 AM
Joined
Aug 6, 2021
Messages
395
-->
In the physical, outward or political sense what people fight isn't hate or intolerance but actions which they themselves hate and do not tolerate.

 

Cognisant

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 1:24 AM
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
9,449
-->
I think he's taking this slave/master thing far too literally.

We all create meaning and although this is not in the absence of external influences ultimately our meaning is as unique to each of us as our experiences we live through. The perfect example of this is morality, we all have a personal sense of morality and all agree that there's a moral right and moral wrong but when you break it down to specifics there is no actual consensus. For example I might think that theft is amoral or possibly even justified under the right circumstances whereas someone else might think theft is always wrong because doing wrong is wrong regardless of the circumstances.

So the slave/master dynamic is when one person successfully imposes their meaning (in an existential sense of the word) upon the other and thus becomes their source of truth regarding that meaning. For example if someone convinces you to join their cult everything you know about the cult (its beliefs, practices, norms) comes from them which means you defer to them regarding those matters and thus you give them the power to decide the meaning of these things for you.

Religion is a particularly developed application of this, since god is the knower and decider of all things you are expected to defer to his wisdom and judgement in all regards. But you can't communicate with god directly (at least most people aren't that deluded) so the church puts itself between you and god and the expectation is that you defer to god's earthy agents: the priests/chaplains/pope/whatever.

This absolute deferral of existential meaning is the slavery that Hegel is talking about because if someone defers to you in all matters than that gives you incredible power over them. You can decide what's moral and what's fair and what's justified and if you get your hooks in deep enough you can even change your mind on a whim because god's will is unknowable so who are they to question your god given authority?

This dynamic is similar to a parent & child or teacher & student, which illustrates that the deferral of meaning isn't inherently a bad thing, there is much to be gained from the teachings of others. Indeed it goes so much deeper than that, as Hegel explained we need the feedback from others in order to understand ourselves and we also have a very real need to be understood by others.

To say "hell is other people" is the utmost foolishness, I appreciate my alone time as much as anyone else here but having time alone isn't the same as being lonely and being lonely isn't like being truly alone. Without other people to give you respite from your internal echo chamber there is nothing to differentiate reality from dreaming and you don't lose your grip on reality, you begin to wake up.

Reality is absolutely nihilistic, nothing lasts, nothing matters, there are no actual nihilists only people who have seen the void and clawed their way back to the life sustaining warmth of madness, those that didn't are dead.

As Hegel describes the slave masters become victims of their own ruse, it gives them power over others but at the price of obscuring themselves from the other, trapping them in a cage of loneliness of their own making. Inevitably they seek out peers, people who aren't caught in the ruse, people who can understand them and if they can't connect with such peers they turn troublesome, fanatical. They buy into their own ruse and become increasingly desperate and dangerous as they try to scratch an itch they cannot understand, turning self destructive and dragging their followers down with them.
 

LOGICZOMBIE

welcome to thought club
Local time
Today 6:24 AM
Joined
Aug 6, 2021
Messages
395
-->
we all have a personal sense of morality and all agree that there's a moral right and moral wrong

(1) PROTECT YOURSELF
(2) PROTECT YOUR FAMILY
(3) PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY
 

LOGICZOMBIE

welcome to thought club
Local time
Today 6:24 AM
Joined
Aug 6, 2021
Messages
395
-->
Reality is absolutely nihilistic, nothing lasts, nothing matters, there are no actual nihilists only people who have seen the void and clawed their way back to the life sustaining warmth of madness, those that didn't are dead.

Well stated.
 

byhisello99

Member
Local time
Today 6:24 AM
Joined
Mar 3, 2020
Messages
73
-->
Can you fight hate and intolerance with hate and intolerance for hate and intolerance?
No. Adding additional poison to the stew only makes it more toxic.

The most successful way to change someone's mind is to reframe the issue. Think of you and the hater you want to change and your relationship, as a pie. You largely agree on things, and the differences are only a tiny slice. You may think you disagree on everything, but that's not true. You both believe it is safe to step onto an elevator after the doors open, you both believe you need to breathe air, you both believe that life is better if you are kind to others. The only part of the pie on which you disagree is the tiny slice, such as you're from the party that believes in science and the other fellow is from the party that you believe doesn't.

First, acceptance beats understanding eight days a week.

Second, your values are largely the same. You both want the same things to happen, everybody respects everybody else, everyone wants peace and love and universal prosperity. The only way in which we differ is how to accomplish the same goal. That is a belief, not a value. And, it's OK for people to hold different beliefs. If you want to change someone's beliefs, you need to reframe the issue. That means agreeing that you want the same I'm an INTJ, and the INTJ forum is a cesspool of hatred and intolerance.

When the ACA was proposed, I had objections on technical grounds. First, the underlying statement of truth, 43 Million Americans without health insurance, was the headline on a Department of the Census Report. Look into the content and you discover that the real number is about 11 million people do not have something called health insurance. The others third-party payers for their healthcare needs available, but chose not to take it. That included the self-employed with income over $75k/year, people eligible for employers health insurance coverage but chose not to use it, and several other categories. The need was for 3% of the population, not 15%. I supported raising my taxes and moving heaven and earth to get that three percent good health care. That means a squad of sharpshooters, not a nuclear bomb. We used the nuclear bomb.

The primary causes of increased healthcare cost are improved diagnostic tools and therapeutics. Your kid's arm hurts, you demand an MRI. The doctor knows there's little chance of anything wrong except a stressed bone, but you insist. Cost: [imath]3K. Cost of X-ray:[/imath]7. But, hey, insurance is paying for it, so it's free, right? There is no free lunch.

Your wife has a problem and you diagnosed it for her using Google. First, you're an idiot. You've seen advertisements on TV and her symptoms are consistent with giardititis (caused by bacteria.) Her BP is in stroke range, which tells the doctor something serious is wrong, but it's not girditis You present the doctor your expert diagnosis and demand she begin antibacterials. Preferably, the latest one. The most expensive one. He suggests gas-x and a bland diet for 24 hours. You get louder and louder, you're sure he's wrong. Eventually they run an MRI of your wife's stomach (useless). What they needed to do was get a CT scan of her intestine, she's probably F.O.S. Give pain medication immediately to bring down the BP, admit her overnight for observation. Nurse starts an IV and your wife is singing the Theme Song to the Mickey Mouse Club. Yup, they gave her a diluted dose of Fentanyl, which brings down BP extremely quickly; your wife's on a trip. Just try to get a video of her; she'll eventually appreciate it, as soon as her sense of humor returns. Oh, and the antibiotics? They'll play hell with your wife's gut biome, leading to making her sicker for a longer period. So, second, you're a really big idiot.

Educating parents and other patients about what is panic-worthy and what isn't is needed. But, heck, you know how to use Google, and Doctors don't know everything, right? Give it up, idiot.

There were many more technical objections, such as the Netherlands study that was released in the middle of "first we have to pass it, then we can read it." The study followed 2,000,000 patients over twenty years with the goal of determining whether smoking or obesity is the greatest contributor to lifetime health care costs. Turned out it was neither. It was lifespan. Thin non-smokers had the highest lifetime healthcare costs, so preventive care was the wrong solution to saving money. I'm not smart enough to know what to do about it; I am smart enough to know that the only choice guaranteed to be wrong was to ignore the study results. Congress ignored the results.

I was pilloried. I didn't want poor people to get healthcare! I wanted to push grandma off a cliff! I was an evil person who should be shot, then hanged, then drawn and quartered.
 

Beliefofmine

The eternal blue sky
Local time
Today 6:24 AM
Joined
Aug 14, 2021
Messages
46
-->
If you want to change someone's beliefs, you need to reframe the issue.

It seems like people who state that they fight against hate and intolerance, hold themselves on such a high pedestal that they're not willing to budge. They've become so entrenched that they don't see the hypocrisy of their own hate and intolerance that they themselves push, just at a different target.

I feel like the only way to reframe it is to point out their hypocrisy, however you get stuck in a loop of eachother claiming the other is hateful/intolerant.
 

Animekitty

baby marshmallow born today
Local time
Today 5:24 AM
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
7,543
-->
Location
crib
As Hegel describes the slave masters become victims of their own ruse

Nietzsche views the master in control of his instincts and the slave warped by them. He views these as personality traits. Adding morality to them. Hate is a warped set of instincts and would be slave morality. Having an emotion control you isn't a master trait. It is very stoic. And is not based on putting the slave down. There is no benefit in hating or any negative trait pushing it onto others. There is only self-control.
 
Top Bottom