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I called someone a stupid whore

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Cognisant

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How's that for a click-bait title :D

So a few months back I meet this Chinese chick through a friend of a friend of mine, no particularly attractive, a bit short, a bit fat, doesn't dress well, not unattractive just a 6/10. I get her number by just being friendly and after talking for a couple of weeks I ask her if she's interested in dating me, I'm thinking she seems emotionally stable and she's a junior developer (mid-twenties career change) so I'll lower my standards a bit and maybe I'll get a nice stable relationship out of this with a nice NT girl.

By the third date I realize she's a time waster, she's been showing no interest in me or affection towards me, she doesn't dress up at all (so far no problem) and on the night of the third date I'm alone with her on a romantic lookout so I lean in and look at her meaningfully, she just stares back. I ask her if she wants to kiss and she's like oh no I don't like kissing, I just want to be friends, I don't know why you would find me attractive, etc. I'm totally baffled, we're on our third date, we've just had dinner after doing bowling and mini-golf (all at my expense because I invited her) and I explicitly asked her if she wanted to date me, but now she's acting like she has no idea what's going on.

It was a blow to my ego but I took it like a gentleman and walked her back to where she could get her bus home and while we're waiting and talking pleasantly she says "I had a great time, we should do this again sometime" which baffled me even more, she's just rejected me and now she wants to go on further dates?

In the following months we go out a few times, just as friends, she may be a time waster but I do enjoy these outings for their own sake and I'm not paying for anything that isn't mine. We talk about dating and I'm quite frank with her that I'm interested in her but until she shows some interest in me this isn't going anywhere, also she wants to travel around and do touristy activities outside my hometown and again I tell her that's what boyfriends are for.

During a get-together with the whole friend group she tells us about her shitty flatmates, one of whom is an old fat hooker who during an argument with the other flatmate stripped naked and went to attack him with a belt, she took a video with her phone, we were all quite horrified. In Australia these are what we call bogans, they're like US rednecks and European slavs, so anyway her bogan hooker flatmate has regular male visitors one of whom takes off his pants in front of her (the girl I was dating) and gets her to jerk him off.

So we tell her to not associate with these people, to move out of that share house and to press charges against this guy for sexual harassment, which she does and then drops when he pays her $300 because he has a history of past offenses and he will go to jail if the charges go through.

It gets better.

A couple weeks pass and then on Thursday I get a call from the cops, turns out she's been associating with these people and the sexual harassment guy has been really friendly and asked her to buy him stuff, because he'll totally pay her back, and she like a total idiot actually believes him. So now she thinks he owes her $250 and based off what the cops said I think she might have tried to steal his phone or maybe his flatmates made that up when they called the cops on her, anyway the cops drop her off at my place to keep her out of trouble and advise her to settle matters through small claims court.

As soon as they're gone she wants to borrow my phone to call the guy because he's blocked her, obviously I refuse, then she asks me to go with her to his place to basically be her stand-in muscle, yeah no. I've put some relaxing music on and I'm trying to get her to sit down at the kitchen table to calm down and talk to me, instead she basically ignores me and calls every guy she knows (some of which are my friends) to ask them if they'll go with her to this guy's place.

I didn't find out until later but I wasn't the first person to call her a stupid whore, anyway she eventually runs out of contacts and calls the other flatmate (the one who almost got assaulted by a fat naked lady with a belt) to come pick her up, I usher her outside because I don't want him to know where I live.

The next day I feel I'm owed an apology so I message her saying I'm going to block her and then I wait, she replies saying she's really upset, at this point nice-Cog checks out and not-nice-Cog checks in, you know the one, so I tell her she's a stupid selfish whore who I want nothing to do with and then I block her.

Turns out I wasn't the first nor the last to do that and hilariously all the single lonely guys she's been stringing along almost all told her the exact same thing, it was a very brotherhood moment.

What's the point of this? Your entertainment, I hope you enjoyed it.
 

BurnedOut

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It was entertaining especially to see the nice Cog repeatedly ignore signs of someone who was bound to fuck up in the future. Don't worry, you are not the only one. NTs seem to have a knack of ignoring the obvious signs and try to outsmart basic psychology by the means of rationalizations and their basic hubris of I am just so different. I can relate to a great extent, I have met such a birdbrain in the past and my reaction was more or less the same.

On the other hand, that was extremely rude to say that which may have damaged her self-esteem even more.
 

Hadoblado

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Prime example of toxic femininity
 

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I can't say I feel entertained, but I do like my dog more and I didn't think that was possible.
 

ZenRaiden

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I don't like kissing, I just want to be friends, I don't know why you would find me attractive
This is one of those red flags that would incite a revolution in some parts of the world.

I personally think this is a good station to get of the crazy train.

No I am not expert, just think this where I would probably block here.

I deal with bullshit all my life, and have dished out bullshit in my life, but if you are dating someone and have options just do the most obvious thing.
 

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How is that any worse than cog's carefully itemized 'pity' dating, Zen? He's constantly chalking up how he's not getting what he's owed for favors no one asked for. Being mad that the person below your standards isn't into you is a self own. You're the only one to blame.

"I don't know why you would find me attractive"

She was right though? Cog was lying, self admittedly, and she could probably tell. Why would she ever be serious about him if she knew this?

Regardless, trying to make a someone feel like they owe you sex or a relationship is revolting and abusive.

Mind you, she doesn't get a free pass. A lot of her behavoir is wildly unacceptable, specifically promoting violence. However this is a one-sided story, in which she's meant to be an object of ridicule and Cog is a proud liar. She's also a lot more likely than cog to be homeless soon enough. Desperation is a hell of a drug.

Now if you're all so fucking lonely, then go bro out with your bro friends that you've bro bonded with over this. Start a support group or a gaming night. Maybe learn to give a shit about someone, without prioritizing what you plan to extract out of them. Literally anybody. Anything. Go rescue something flea bitten with mange for fuck's sake.

Stop attempting to catfish '6/10s' and then getting mad that they don't bite. Don't date people you hate.


You're welcome btw, for taking the bait. You must be bored.
 

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Cog would describe intpforum.com to a person he badmouths here as a dim, somewhat backward place full of his intellectual inferiors that he occasionally graces with his presence as a sort of community service. He's the only real life it has left you see. It's really not worth his time, but he settles for it anyway, because he's a good guy.
 

sushi

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you probably have to get fucked like this at least 5 or 6 times before finding the one.

Finding your match and almost like searching for the right job, i've been fucked and fired many times.

the more experience you have, the more you see through the psychological games people play.
 

Puffy

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Me thinks Adaire may have just pwned the thread.
 

Cognisant

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Being mad that the person below your standards isn't into you is a self own.
I wasn't mad at first, confused and disappointed certainly and I wasn't mad when after rejecting me she continued to string me along. When I was hanging out with her she was the one bringing up the topic of dating and I was friend-zoning her, not in the sense that she was trying to have sex with me but rather that she was trying to make me simp for her. I'm not going to play tour guide and organize outings and take her to restaurants and do all the things a guy does when he's trying to impress someone, I did my best and she wasn't impressed.

Basically she wanted me to date her but it wasn't going anywhere and that's why the three date rule exists, if a guy can't impress a girl in three dates she's not interested in him she's just using him and that's the reality guys face, there's a lot of serial daters out there who just want time & attention and to be treated special and that's it.

I wasn't mad until she was pulling on my arm asking me to go be her debt collector to some guy I told her to stay away from, that's not my responsibility, I don't want her to bring trouble into my life and when I tried to get an apology from her she had absolutely no idea that she'd even done anything wrong.

I don't exist to serve, I'm not a toy to be played with and discarded when it's not wanted, I got mad because it was clear that she never wanted me as boyfriend or even a friend, she thought she was entitled to my servitude because I'm just a guy and that's just what they do.

Not just me either I sat at my kitchen table and watched her call every guy she knew trying get them to do what she wanted.

You're right though it was a self-own, she didn't make a fool of me I made a fool of myself because I kept trying to be the nice guy hoping in vain that maybe she'll have a revelation and realize I could be good for her. And I suspect that's exactly how she became who she is, a series of guys like me being foolishly nice and holding out hope that if they're just patient enough she'll come around.

He's constantly chalking up how he's not getting what he's owed for favors no one asked for.
The only thing I felt I was owed was an apology.

When she rejected me I took it like a gentlemen, I didn't get angry, I didn't stop being friends with her at that point. But I did make it clear that if I'm not her boyfriend I'm not going to act like it because I do have some self respect, am I not allowed to have that much?

"I don't know why you would find me attractive"

She was right though? Cog was lying, self admittedly, and she could probably tell. Why would she ever be serious about him if she knew this?
Y'know as a guy I constantly hear that I'm a scumbag because guys only want one thing and that's all that matters because guys are shallow and blah blah blah. So here I'm saying I was dating this person for reasons other than their attractiveness, that what I was really after was something serious with someone I could find relatable in terms of their personality, and you're calling me out on dishonesty.

So if I'm a shallow scumbag for dating women for their attractiveness and a dishonest scumbag for dating women for their personalities, what am I actually allowed to want out of a relationship? Nothing? Does it not concern me because I am a participant so I think it does, indeed call me entitled but I think I'm allowed to choose the reasons why I want to date someone.

Regardless, trying to make a someone feel like they owe you sex or a relationship is revolting and abusive.
The only thing I felt I was owed was an apology.

Mind you, she doesn't get a free pass. A lot of her behavoir is wildly unacceptable, specifically promoting violence. However this is a one-sided story, in which she's meant to be an object of ridicule and Cog is a proud liar. She's also a lot more likely than cog to be homeless soon enough. Desperation is a hell of a drug.
And you're an unabashedly hateful little gremlin with a special little hate-boner just for me so I'm sure everyone will just accept that at face value because you're soo unbiased.

Also why is her living situation my problem? These are modern times, she's a proud independent need-no-man woman and if she wants to make stupid decisions heedless to everyone's advice why is it on us, or me specifically, to protect her from the consequences?

Now if you're all so fucking lonely, then go bro out with your bro friends that you've bro bonded with over this. Start a support group or a gaming night. Maybe learn to give a shit about someone, without prioritizing what you plan to extract out of them. Literally anybody. Anything. Go rescue something flea bitten with mange for fuck's sake.
We do support each other, it's not lovey-dovey but we get together and play games and talk and encourage each other and hear out each other's complaints, that's what men do. The funny thing is if this girl was dating one of my friends that would make her his responsibility and as his friend I would share that responsibility and if he had to go confront someone he'd put the call out and we would go there as a group, not looking for a fight but ready to back him up if things turned sour.

But we're not going to do that for her because she wouldn't be there to help us and if we gave her that privilege she would just abuse it and that's exactly what she was trying to do. She lost that money because she was buying this guy stuff, why was she doing that, why would anyone do that, obviously she's taken a liking to him for some ineffable reason and it didn't work out, why is that our problem?

We were supportive when we found out he sexually harassed her, we heard her out, we gave her our advice and she went back and did the exact opposite, why is that our problem?


Cog would describe intpforum.com to a person he badmouths here as a dim, somewhat backward place full of his intellectual inferiors that he occasionally graces with his presence as a sort of community service.
Yup :D

He's the only real life it has left you see. It's really not worth his time, but he settles for it anyway, because he's a good guy.
Aww thank you but really the credit goes to you, without you I wouldn't have half as much fun in this place as I do.

Me thinks Adaire may have just pwned the thread.
This is when the fun begins.
 

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Tell me one positive thing about anyone you've dated, or hell just a close or not so close friend is fine. Articulate why you admire them, what you learned from them, what kind of people they were, or what they cared about.

I don't think you can do this without couching it in a litany of insults or making it about how they benefit or hurt you.

My point is you treat people like subhumans and you don't even realize it. In turn that is the behavoir you recieve. Its logical really. Tit for tat. Shittiness for shittiness. I get that you had early childhood trauma and that can produce radical self interest because of the sheer scale of unmet needs, but is it reallly that impossible to treat people like people, instead of ends? You clearly want something else in your life and you're in a self perpetuating cycle.

Start small. Care about something. Care about anything. Ask yourself what you can do to be better to the people around you. You don't need to be a self sacrificing saint, you just need to care. There is no cure possible for your loneless if you're determined to see everyone in your life as an npc.

I don't know this lady's circumstances. I'm just not interested in judging her to give you some poisonous self gratification. I'm also not telling you to do anything regarding her. Maybe she'd murder you with an axe, I don't know. I'm just sure she has her own story that she tells herself to justify her behavoir. Just like you do.
 

Puffy

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Being mad that the person below your standards isn't into you is a self own.
I wasn't mad at first, confused and disappointed certainly and I wasn't mad when after rejecting me she continued to string me along. When I was hanging out with her she was the one bringing up the topic of dating and I was friend-zoning her, not in the sense that she was trying to have sex with me but rather that she was trying to make me simp for her. I'm not going to play tour guide and organize outings and take her to restaurants and do all the things a guy does when he's trying to impress someone, I did my best and she wasn't impressed.

Basically she wanted me to date her but it wasn't going anywhere and that's why the three date rule exists, if a guy can't impress a girl in three dates she's not interested in him she's just using him and that's the reality guys face, there's a lot of serial daters out there who just want time & attention and to be treated special and that's it.

I wasn't mad until she was pulling on my arm asking me to go be her debt collector to some guy I told her to stay away from, that's not my responsibility, I don't want her to bring trouble into my life and when I tried to get an apology from her she had absolutely no idea that she'd even done anything wrong.

I don't exist to serve, I'm not a toy to be played with and discarded when it's not wanted, I got mad because it was clear that she never wanted me as boyfriend or even a friend, she thought she was entitled to my servitude because I'm just a guy and that's just what they do.

Not just me either I sat at my kitchen table and watched her call every guy she knew trying get them to do what she wanted.

You're right though it was a self-own, she didn't make a fool of me I made a fool of myself because I kept trying to be the nice guy hoping in vain that maybe she'll have a revelation and realize I could be good for her. And I suspect that's exactly how she became who she is, a series of guys like me being foolishly nice and holding out hope that if they're just patient enough she'll come around.

He's constantly chalking up how he's not getting what he's owed for favors no one asked for.
The only thing I felt I was owed was an apology.

When she rejected me I took it like a gentlemen, I didn't get angry, I didn't stop being friends with her at that point. But I did make it clear that if I'm not her boyfriend I'm not going to act like it because I do have some self respect, am I not allowed to have that much?

"I don't know why you would find me attractive"

She was right though? Cog was lying, self admittedly, and she could probably tell. Why would she ever be serious about him if she knew this?
Y'know as a guy I constantly hear that I'm a scumbag because guys only want one thing and that's all that matters because guys are shallow and blah blah blah. So here I'm saying I was dating this person for reasons other than their attractiveness, that what I was really after was something serious with someone I could find relatable in terms of their personality, and you're calling me out on dishonesty.

So if I'm a shallow scumbag for dating women for their attractiveness and a dishonest scumbag for dating women for their personalities, what am I actually allowed to want out of a relationship? Nothing? Does it not concern me because I am a participant so I think it does, indeed call me entitled but I think I'm allowed to choose the reasons why I want to date someone.

Regardless, trying to make a someone feel like they owe you sex or a relationship is revolting and abusive.
The only thing I felt I was owed was an apology.

Mind you, she doesn't get a free pass. A lot of her behavoir is wildly unacceptable, specifically promoting violence. However this is a one-sided story, in which she's meant to be an object of ridicule and Cog is a proud liar. She's also a lot more likely than cog to be homeless soon enough. Desperation is a hell of a drug.
And you're an unabashedly hateful little gremlin with a special little hate-boner just for me so I'm sure everyone will just accept that at face value because you're soo unbiased.

Also why is her living situation my problem? These are modern times, she's a proud independent need-no-man woman and if she wants to make stupid decisions heedless to everyone's advice why is it on us, or me specifically, to protect her from the consequences?

Now if you're all so fucking lonely, then go bro out with your bro friends that you've bro bonded with over this. Start a support group or a gaming night. Maybe learn to give a shit about someone, without prioritizing what you plan to extract out of them. Literally anybody. Anything. Go rescue something flea bitten with mange for fuck's sake.
We do support each other, it's not lovey-dovey but we get together and play games and talk and encourage each other and hear out each other's complaints, that's what men do. The funny thing is if this girl was dating one of my friends that would make her his responsibility and as his friend I would share that responsibility and if he had to go confront someone he'd put the call out and we would go there as a group, not looking for a fight but ready to back him up if things turned sour.

But we're not going to do that for her because she wouldn't be there to help us and if we gave her that privilege she would just abuse it and that's exactly what she was trying to do. She lost that money because she was buying this guy stuff, why was she doing that, why would anyone do that, obviously she's taken a liking to him for some ineffable reason and it didn't work out, why is that our problem?

We were supportive when we found out he sexually harassed her, we heard her out, we gave her our advice and she went back and did the exact opposite, why is that our problem?


Cog would describe intpforum.com to a person he badmouths here as a dim, somewhat backward place full of his intellectual inferiors that he occasionally graces with his presence as a sort of community service.
Yup :D

He's the only real life it has left you see. It's really not worth his time, but he settles for it anyway, because he's a good guy.
Aww thank you but really the credit goes to you, without you I wouldn't have half as much fun in this place as I do.

Me thinks Adaire may have just pwned the thread.
This is when the fun begins.
Nah man, it’d be way better to not treat this as a combat to win or come out on top of and to just listen. Adaire seems to know you quite well and I do sense a tint of care for you in what she’s saying.
 

Cognisant

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The reigning queen of snark and cynicism is trying to make me a better person by extolling the virtues of kindness and caring for others? Haha yeah sure.

My point is you treat people like subhumans and you don't even realize it. In turn that is the behavoir you recieve. Its logical really. Tit for tat. Shittiness for shittiness. I get that you had early childhood trauma and that can produce radical self interest because of the sheer scale of unmet needs, but is it reallly that impossible to treat people like people, instead of ends? You clearly want something else in your life and you're in a self perpetuating cycle.
Ah good old third wave feminism.

You see it's always the man's fault, always, because women are perfect and men are flawed and this is the truth, at least this is the truth as our society knows it. So in the OP I'm describing how I'm being so nice and understanding that it's borderline simping and it goes on for so long that I end up questioning the integrity of my own self respect. But no that can't be right because that would mean she treated me unfairly and that's impossible because women are perfect and men are not, clearly somehow it must be my fault.

One solution is that I shouldn't have been nice, I should expect women to come to me and try to impress me and wait-wait-wait that can't be right, that would mean I'm entitled to receive attention and men aren't entitled to anything, it's a man's job to be a real man and prove himself.

Yeah I'm being silly, dair gave us the solution, see the problem wasn't that I was insufficiently nice it's that my niceness was insufficiently earnest, as evidence by my scathing observations CRITICISMS of this poor woman. If only my attentions toward this woman were more earnest things could have gone differently but I ruined everything because I wasn't nice AND selfless. "But Cog" you may ask "surely your actions spoke for themselves and surely actions speak louder than words, surely taking her out on dates demonstrated your interest in her and esteem for her".

Ah but you see dair in her infinite wisdom has already given us the answer for this, women are psychic therefore it doesn't matter how you act because if your intentions are not pure she will know. For example I called her a 6/10 and compared her to other women I've dated in the past, both of these crimes are absolutely unforgivable, and then I went and made matters worse by making that comparison unfavorable! What a fool I was, how dare an mere mortal look upon a living goddess and see anything other than utter perfection, what audacity that he may even consider himself worthy of having an opinion.

Still not seeing it? Ok gender-swap time!!!

So Cogette is out with friends after work and they introduce her to this guy and he's not as cute as the guys she's dated before but he's a coder, probably an NT, she's at that point in her life when she wants to find the right guy to settle down with and this could be it. So she starts playing the game, being friendly, being a good listener, telling jokes, laughing at his jokes and at the end of the night he says "I had a great time can I give you my number?"

Already this is straying from reality, since when do women who aren't comedians tell jokes?

So they talk via WhatsApp for a couple weeks and they're getting along quite well so she asks him if he's interested in having a girlfriend (omg what a slut right?) and he says yes so a week later they go on their first date. It goes well enough except that he's just wearing tracksuit pants and a jumper, it's not a big deal, she chalks it up to him being a coder and they're not really known for their fashion sense. Cogette pays for dinner, she asked him out after all and he makes a bit less than she does, not that either of these things really matter, but this is very clearly a date, she doesn't do this for her friends and they wouldn't expect her to.

Second date is much the same, jeans and a jumper this time, Cogette is still trying to ignore this because y'know it really doesn't matter even if the way he dresses and the way he acts makes her feel like he doesn't care. It's a subtle feeling, a lack of excitement, like this is something routine for him or he's distancing himself, being friendly but not too friendly, it doesn't feel like a date.

Third date, so far things have been a bit lackluster but ever the optimist Cogette's planing to change that, she got bookings bowling and mini-golf and a table reservation at the Italian place nearby, she had to reschedule the bookings when he suddenly wasn't available but it was a work thing so she didn't mind. On the night she's waiting outside dressed up in her best outfit, she's eager to get in early before the queue gets too long because this is a really popular place, he shows up ten minutes late and because of that it takes a further ten minutes to enter the venue.

Cogette doesn't mind even if the evening didn't start our right she's determined to make the best of it, so they go play their games and have some drinks while they do so, it's a bit rushed because they were behind schedule but he seemed to be having fun and that's all Cogette wanted to see. They then go to dinner which is thankfully uneventful, the food was good and feeling full they go for a walk, Cogette leading him to a not exactly secluded but less trafficked park that looks out over a river and to the city on the other side.

Ok I'm getting tired of writing this and we haven't even gotten to the good parts yet, but surely you get my point, if my situation was gender-swapped it would be outrageous for a man to treat a woman like that and again we haven't even gotten to the good parts yet.

Would dair give the same "advice" to Cogette and tell her she's just not earnest enough in her kindness to be worth that man's attention? Of course not, swap the genders and suddenly the same situation is actually totally different, because dair is operating under the assumptions of third wave feminism, that women are perfect and men are not.

That women inherently deserve kindness and men do not.
My point is you treat people like subhumans and you don't even realize it.
 

Cognisant

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My point is you treat people like subhumans and you don't even realize it. In turn that is the behavoir you recieve. Its logical really. Tit for tat. Shittiness for shittiness.
Here's a revelation, that's what you are to me, I hurt you once and for the sheer audacity you made it your life's mission to get your pound of flesh at every opportunity.

Do you want to know why I'm so goddamn defensive all the time, read your own posts in this thread, if there is any opportunity at all to get at me you will seize it without hesitation.

I don't seek you out for these fights it's always you coming for me, why is that?

What the fuck did I actually do to you?
As I recall I was young dumb and I lost my patience with you because you forgot that I was a real fucking person and ever since I've been your own personal devil.

So I play the role I've been given.
 

Glaerhaidh

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How does her being chinese have any bearing on the story? Are you weirdly into low status immigrants or are you racist?
In Australia these are what we call bogans, they're like US rednecks and European slavs,
You are racist, noted.

So you dated a 6/10 girl that you didn't like or find attractive just to have sex and you even considered if she's likely to accept based on her social status (and her status is bottom low considering she lives in a shared room with criminals). The romantic part of me finds that disgusting.

You shouldn't blame or hate anyone for not accepting your sex offer, it's your fault for expecting that your money or fake goodwill is going to get you some ass. Maybe throw more money at the problem next time.

Why the half-measures? Either learn to persuade (better yet intimidate) people into sex or stop being butthurt over a completely normal thing like getting rejected.

You wanted to use her, she wanted to use you and if you add the $ she actually came out on top. You're a sucker at your own game.

She wanted dating and you wanted sex. Skip the pretense and ask her for her prostitute friend's number. More direct way of exchanging money to sex.

Here's a wild theory, maybe her life was so miserable in this foreign land full of thirsty men that sex simply wasn't on her mind? Seems pretty clear that she lacked basic security not to mention a million other reasons when sex isn't a priority.

How do you feel with calling a poor immigrant a whore? Doesn't impress me as particularly refined, maybe her bogan flatmate is more friendly and caring than you actually are?

Are you ok, though? Do you have friends or people to hang out with. Hope you're not doing it out of desperation. Resident SJW out.
 

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I'm not the one making this about gender and feminism cog. You're obsessed with it, paranoid and afraid. Im not trying to change your opinion on women, Im trying to get you try a new lens to approach the world. To accept that your current lens is not getting you what you want. You're close enough to an empiricist, that it only matters that you get better results and it would stick. Frankly, I'm pretty disinterested in feminism stuff. People like to make it my problem though. To me its addressing annoying and archaic problems and Id rather move on already. I look and call myself a woman, (though I feel like a floating brain) so the 'feminist' dirty words gets thrown around occassionally when I have opinions dudes don't like. I'm not a femininst though. I haven't done the reading to quailify. I just exist.

I think of humanity as a network and the people within it as nodes. You're either a healthy enough node that connections and good memes can pass through you and you keep the surrounding tissue around you healthy or you're cancer. That and a personalized idea of efficiency, are my guiding 'moral' principles. People tend to get horrified if I describe it in too much detail though.

I try to be the former personally, not always successfully. I mean we're probably doomed as a species anyway, but, well, I don't want to be what kills us. Be a good node, Cog. What benefits the people around you will benefit you.
 

Cognisant

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It’s very simple, would you give the same advice to a woman? Would you tell her she’s not being earnest enough in her kindness after she had to deal with the shit that I did? You wouldn’t. Stop trying to lecture me you utter hypocrite, you are embodying toxic feminism, the idea that men aren’t as perfect or as pure as women, yeah sure I could be a better person, we could all be better people but here’s the thing you keep glossing over SO COULD YOU!

You’re far from fucking perfect, you are bitter, cynical, relentlessly hateful, you have blatant double standards and you’re a hypocrite because in spite of all that you think you can still lecture me.

So I made some negative observations about her, a person that nobody here knows in a thread she’ll never see, maybe I wrote it out of spite because after she blatantly tried to use me and didn’t even have the decency to realize she might have done something wrong, so I might have felt a little hard done by, and for that little slip you’ve been utterly determined to fucking crucify me. Disproportionate much?

Even after I’ve called you out on your bullshit, you don’t back down, you won’t apologize, you continue!

No you’re not trying to make me a better person. Your motivation is perfectly transparent, the reason you can’t back down or admit any fault of your own and the reason why you’re so determined to defend her is because you share her massive sense of entitlement. The details are irrelevant, the truth is irrelevant, the only narrative you’re willing to accept is that I’m wrong and you’re right, that I’m a piece of shit and whatever flaws you might have they don’t really matter, you even came to her defence assuming as bad as her actions were well she must have her reasons.

We all have our reasons.
 

Puffy

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I mostly +1'd dair's previous posts as I resonate a lot with what she's saying about 'radical self-interest' and how it's born out of trauma (apologies if I'm misinterpreting you in this post, dair). I can see this in your posts as well Cog, including your OP, but I don't mean it as a judgement of you or something to get defensive about. I think it's something that is present in some other members of this community to different degrees and I would include myself in that.

I think it's a natural consequence of chronic loneliness and living on the edges of society, which people here experience to different degrees. It's normal and healthy for people to grow up embedded within a community, dair's human network, which involves learning to factor and take care of the needs of the community as well as your own. It involves thinking of yourself as a part of something bigger than yourself, identifying as "We" rather than just "Me." When someone develops without that or becomes deeply alienated from it, they become radically self-centred as there is only "Me" in their world. So they become self-obsessed and only able to relate to people in respect to their own obsessions, ideas and needs. It is a form of disease, what dair calls a cancer, as people aren't meant to be chronically lonely and it causes them very deep unhappiness to be that way.

I might be projecting but I see care towards you in dair's posts, Cog, as I've been in the circumstance where a friend (from this forum also) highlighted the same thing to me, and she was helping me in doing so. And though it was a tough pill to swallow I became happier the more I worked on this. "Care" really is the best remedy. As when you're able to step out of self-interest and your own obsessions -- which are basically just a means of filling the void of, and distracting yourself from the suffering of, loneliness -- by just deeply caring about and connecting to something or someone outside yourself, you become a part of "We" again and happier as a result.

Even just finding a community project to participate in can really help. Anything that brings your attention outside of yourself to the needs of the group.
 

Cognisant

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When I’m telling my side of events I need to fill in enough detail to give the reader an accurate mental image of events, when I said she was Chinese was I making some kind of racist/nationalist point? No, it was just a detail to help fill in the reader’s mental image so they could visualize my story and yes my description of her was unflattering (god forbid a man have an unflattering opinion of a woman) and it wasn’t to put her down, it’s not even really how I think. But I know my audience and they’re petty enough to jump to conclusions and mock me for dating someone out of my league so I took measures to prevent that. I think dair asked if I didn’t find this person attractive why was I dating her, well obviously I did find her attractive or at least sufficiently attractive otherwise indeed why was I dating her?

Am I conceited to tell a story from my point of view, as the events pertain to me and to pre-emptively fend of the idiots that will jump to stupid conclusions?

Now on the topic of my supposed dishonesty, how could I be more earnest? Because as I see it I was totally earnest the entire time, I knew what I wanted, I asked her out, I did my best to impress and when I was rejected I didn’t get upset about it and when she kept trying to coax special treatment out of me stated my position and at one point literally said “the ball’s in your court”. I wasn’t being mean I declared my boundaries and I asked her to respect them, if she wanted me to be her boyfriend I would but if she didn’t then I wouldn’t, she had all the power to decide what happened next and I took no offence to that.

How is any of that being dishonest?

When the cops dropped her off at my place I’ll admit on some level I was hoping that maybe she’ll finally see how dependable I am, maybe she’ll finally some me some appreciation, I didn’t expect her to, I wasn’t mad when she didn’t (a bit depressed maybe) when I got mad it was because she refused to respect my boundaries. I told her I didn’t want to get involved with this guy, that it wasn’t my responsibility, she repeatedly asked to borrow my phone (her phone was working fine he’d just blocked her) and was tugging on my arm repeatedly asking me to go with her to his place like a spoiled child going “I want it now!” not once showing any appreciation for letting me into my home when the cops probably would have thrown her in a holding cell overnight or even saying “please”.

I think I was entirely honest the entire time, it wasn’t a lack of honesty that was the problem, it was a lack of selflessness and excuse me but how entitled are you that you are blatantly demanding that I be more selfless?

I was plenty selfless, yeah I put up boundaries after she rejected me but am I not entitled to have boundaries, am I not allowed to have a limit to how much I’ll let people use me?

How fucking entitled are you?
 

Puffy

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Nobody is asking you to forsake your boundaries or to become some kind of selfless saint, Cog. Of course you have to love yourself as well as others, and respecting your boundaries is an important part of that.

It's more like if someone becomes unbalanced by becoming too excessive in a certain trait then the only way to become balanced is to develop in the opposite traits.

To be entitled is to feel you're deserving of more special treatment than others. There is no entitlement in what I say as I'm not asking for special treatment and everything I am highlighting is also what I recognise in myself. Everything that I suggest to remedy it is also what I do.

A part of the problem with what I'm highlighting in my previous post is that people like that can become very heavily identified with their own narrative and obsessions to the extent that they can't see anything outside of it. They're too identified with it to really be able to see it from a detached perspective. So it doesn't surprise me that you can't see or really get what I'm saying and that you can only perceive our posts as a threat.

For me, personally it took some strong experiences to break up my patterns enough that I could see this process happening from a detached perspective for me to truly see it and understand how it was causing me to suffer.

Unfortunately it is often the case that people have to learn the hard way. However your life goes, Cog, I hope your happiness unfolds in the gentlest way possible.
 

Cognisant

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Uh-huh, live laugh love and all that basic bitch bullshit.

I don’t think you or dair are totally wrong, I’m sure everyone can agree that being a better person is always going to be good thing but as advice it’s tautological and worthless. I reject this narrative that there’s anything particularly wrong with me, I’m not lacking in honesty or selflessness, it’s not my fault this person rejected me, I offered and she declined it’s as simple as that and there is nothing I could have done different to change the outcome, simply put it wasn’t my decision to make.

Do you disagree with any of that?

Because if you don’t then for fuck sake stop trying to put this back on me, stop trying to prove that I’m flawed, yeah I’m not perfect but nor is anyone and we all have our reasons so why are you being so damn insistent on making me out to be the bad guy?

I can tell you why, because it serves your self-aggrandizing 3rd wave feminist narrative that men are flawed and women are flawless.

You're not.
 

Deleted member 1424

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Well you questioned my motives, Cog, so I outlined my personal approach to social strife. It's not particularly couched in gendered conflict, so I thought it necessary to be perceived correctly. I've said all I wish to say now on this subject. Good luck.

I mostly +1'd dair's previous posts as I resonate a lot with what she's saying about 'radical self-interest' and how it's born out of trauma (apologies if I'm misinterpreting you in this post, dair).

No, that's absolutely correct. Thanks Puffy. I've long thought that you're a good communicator. You are able to speak in an empathic and reasoned way I respect. I always want to go hyper-rationalist as if it might make my arguments more objective, but it doesn't and it's not particularly useful.

I like using bodily metaphors to help me understand social and memetic networks. I like to think of traumatized individuals as a scab or an immune response to a greater collective wound. There is this twilight of survival between what would kill a person and what would make them thrive. If you can hold your ground, the suffering doesn't have to spread... or something Ughhhh I'm not explaining this well. It works in my head though. I swear.
 

Hadoblado

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I don't seek you out for these fights it's always you coming for me, why is that?

But you rocked up at the forum that they’re a mod of, and posted provocatively in areas you know they have opinions on. Your first line is an admission that the title is bait. Bait for who? This sounds a lot like seeking them out to me, and the way you blame them for it is super shit. If you rock up at the doorstep of my workplace and scream out that my mum is ugly you don’t get to claim that I sought you out. Super shitty maneuver.

You dismiss dair’s criticism as ideologically driven, but also as a personal vendetta. So are they triggered by the things you’re saying because they’re an SJW or are they triggered because it’s you saying it? What I do know for sure is that all of your conclusions include them being triggered and not you, who recently created threads on toxic femininity, gender-bent fantasy, and objectification. You also participated in the toxic masculinity thread and the class differences in relationships thread. While these are recent examples, you have been culture warring for years and have established patterns of seeking out conflict to appease your boredom. You are being surgical with the context you invoke in order to construct a misleading narrative.
 

Hadoblado

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Okay now onto the actual topic. I’ll start off by pointing out the criticisms against you I disagree with:

I disagree with dair that you behaved dishonestly. You stated an absence of unattraction, but not a presence of attraction. Girl doesn’t see why you would find her attractive and by the way you talk about her here, your reasoning was more like a lifestyle choice. So it sounds like Chinese not particularly attractive short fat poorly dressed 6/10 timewaster bogan stupid selfish whore stringalonger girl was picking up on something. I don’t think this means you were dishonest or a liar, I think there is a dissonance between the socially constructed lens you used to evaluate her, and her perceived utility to you.

I don’t think you’re a racist and I think Glairhaidh was way too eager to draw that conclusion.


And make some concessions:

I think for the most part you behaved pretty well, and that it’s reasonable to be confused by the signals she sent. It’s also alright to be upset, and it’s also pretty normal to tear down people you are rejected by as part of removing the halo effect and moving on. This is all expected.
 

Hadoblado

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Obviously I think you’re in the wrong. So what is the issue?



I do not stan Chinese not particularly attractive short fat poorly dressed 6/10 timewaster bogan stupid selfish whore stringalonger girl. She was either oblivious to the impact of her actions on you or manipulative. The way she handled the issue by rallying the clan as muscle was shit and she seemed a bit naive about money. Not even her perfect 6/10 breasts are worth that level of incompetence.



The main issue I have, which you seem to be oblivious to(?) is that even when we are only hearing your side of the story, your own depiction of yourself is that of entitlement in an Elliot Rogers kind of way. This isn’t just the nice guy supreme gentlemen aesthetic:


It was a blow to my ego but I took it like a gentleman and walked her back to where she could get her bus home...



...at this point nice-Cog checks out and not-nice-Cog checks in...



I’ll show you:



So a few months back I meet this Chinese chick through a friend of a friend of mine, no particularly attractive, a bit short, a bit fat, doesn't dress well, not unattractive just a 6/10. I get her number by just being friendly and after talking for a couple of weeks I ask her if she's interested in dating me, I'm thinking she seems emotionally stable and she's a junior developer (mid-twenties career change) so I'll lower my standards a bit and maybe I'll get a nice stable relationship out of this with a nice NT girl.



It’s implicit in the structure of your story. Your first paragraph is about how in the objective hierarchy of the dating market you were lowering yourself for Chinese not particularly attractive short fat poorly dressed 6/10 timewaster bogan stupid selfish whore stringalonger girl. You go to lengths to explain how you were doing her a favour because you recognised that she held more value to you because of your current goals than to her selling price on market.



By the third date I realize she's a time waster, she's been showing no interest in me or affection towards me, she doesn't dress up at all (so far no problem) and on the night of the third date I'm alone with her on a romantic lookout so I lean in and look at her meaningfully, she just stares back. I ask her if she wants to kiss and she's like oh no I don't like kissing, I just want to be friends, I don't know why you would find me attractive, etc. I'm totally baffled, we're on our third date, we've just had dinner after doing bowling and mini-golf (all at my expense because I invited her) and I explicitly asked her if she wanted to date me, but now she's acting like she has no idea what's going on.

It was a blow to my ego but I took it like a gentleman and walked her back to where she could get her bus home and while we're waiting and talking pleasantly she says "I had a great time, we should do this again sometime" which baffled me even more, she's just rejected me and now she wants to go on further dates?



You then spend the next two paragraphs further emphasising her lack of value, and then explaining how clueless she is because she was confused by your attention when you didn’t seem attracted to her. Please note that this would come across as clueless if you weren’t giving every indication you were not attracted to her.



Your next paragraph, in the wake of her confusing “I don’t want to date you but it’s fun hanging out lets do it again” behaviour, is an admission that it’s fun hanging out and that you chose to do it again. This is fine, nobody’s perfectly rational and a good time is a good time, but it’s a bold double standard.



In the following months we go out a few times, just as friends, she may be a time waster but I do enjoy these outings for their own sake and I'm not paying for anything that isn't mine. We talk about dating and I'm quite frank with her that I'm interested in her but until she shows some interest in me this isn't going anywhere, also she wants to travel around and do touristy activities outside my hometown and again I tell her that's what boyfriends are for.



Do you see it now? You describe her in terms of her market value and her personal value to you. Let me further elaborate:



There are two women in your story:

  • Girl
    • Chinese
    • Not particularly attractive
    • Not unattractive
    • Short
    • Fat
    • Poorly dressed
    • 6/10
    • Timewaster
    • Bogan
    • Stupid
    • Selfish
    • Whore
    • Strings people along
    • Shows no interest or affection towards you
    • Doesn’t dress up at all
    • Emotionally stable
    • Junior Developer
  • Fat hooker
    • Shitty flatmate
    • Is fat
    • Is hooker
    • Bogan
    • Old
    • Attacks people with belts while naked


There are multiple men in your story:

  • You
    • Gentleman
    • Frank
    • Nice Cog
    • Not Nice Cog
    • Calls girl stupid selfish whore
  • Sexual Harassment Guy
    • Shitty flatmate
    • Sexually Harasses
    • Manipulates people into buying him things
    • Bogan
  • Housemate
    • Gets attacked with belt
    • Is bogan
    • Shitty flatmate
  • Other friends who were strung along
    • Agree she’s a stupid whore
    • Brotherly bonding

You are the protagonist of your story, so you’re expected to be depicted okay. You go out of your way to explain characteristics of women in your story that are superfluous in order to indicate their inferior value. Beyond a broad categorisation of bogan, you have very little to add about the other men that does not directly relate to their role in the story. One is a sexual harasser, and you state this objectively as his role. You go out of your way to make sure we know the fat old hooker is fat. Twice. You also give us additional info to paint her as a lunatic outside of her role as hooker. You don’t volunteer anything to paint sexual harasser guy as bad outside of his role in the story. The reality you convey is one in which men who do bad things are just something that happens, but in which women’s traits and actions are under the microscope.

You're not the victim of a double standard. You did something shitty (calling someone vulnerable a selfish stupid whore when they are at their lowest point) and are proud of it. If a woman did something similar to a man while they were vulnerable and they were proud of it I would make the same criticism. I have made the same criticism and done so at the potential cost to my career. Double standards do exist but that doesn't mean that it's impossible that your poor behaviour is bad. You live in a cruel bitter fantasy land.
 

Cognisant

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But you rocked up at the forum that they’re a mod of, and posted provocatively in areas you know they have opinions on. Your first line is an admission that the title is bait. Bait for who? This sounds a lot like seeking them out to me, and the way you blame them for it is super shit. If you rock up at the doorstep of my workplace and scream out that my mum is ugly you don’t get to claim that I sought you out. Super shitty maneuver.
Your example is not equivalent, if I showed up at your workplace this being a place I don't usually go and start calling out insults about your mother then I would be calling you out specifically and exclusively. There is nothing about the title of this thread that's calling out dair specifically much less exclusively, there's nothing about the topic of this thread that's calling out dair specifically much less exclusively.

A better example would be walking past the Westboro Baptist Church wearing a tight pink and baby blue shirt that says GAY PRIDE and only if that was a path I regularly walked because this example only works if I'm not seeking them out. I am a regular here, I regularly talk very candidly about my personal life, there's nothing about this thread that is out of character for me or going out of my way to get dair's attention.

Well you're right that the title is bait by definition of being "click-bait" but that's the purpose of a title, to inform potential readers what the thread is about about and ideally to give them a reason to want to read it, I only called it out as click-bait to make fun of myself for writing something so tabloidsque.

Now granted like the Westboro Baptists dair has well established patterns of behavior, indeed I think you know this and you focused on my thread title instead in order to make your point but also weasel out of conceding this point to me.

In the example I gave anyone who knows anything about the Westboro Baptists is cognizant of the consequences of flaunting homosexuality outside of their church, because they are a famously hateful and intolerant group. But does that mean gay people aren't allowed to be gay in the vicinity of the Westboro Baptists, even from a practical standpoint of it being safer not to risk antagonizing them does that mean the Westboro Baptists are entitled to have this influence on society?

I will concede to you that I baited dair if you concede to me the prerequisite that I was only able to do so, with a thread that has nothing in it that specifically calls her out, because like the Westboros she is a reliably hateful person who can be relied upon to seize any opportunity to get at me.

Now does that make me a shitty person? Well that's really a question of entitlement isn't it, am I entitled to be here and talk about the things I want to talk about or as a mod (because you felt that was worth mentioning for some reason) is dair entitled to loom over this forum using her influence to shut down any discussion that offends her personal sensibilities?

I think if she thinks I'm wrong and she has a point to make then she should make that point and we can have a discussion, and we have had a discussion in which either directly or indirectly I feel I have adequately addressed every point she made.
But by all means if anything requires clarification please let me know.

Edit: I see you're doing that as I write this.

You dismiss dair’s criticism as ideologically driven, but also as a personal vendetta. So are they triggered by the things you’re saying because they’re an SJW or are they triggered because it’s you saying it?
Huh? It's an ideologically driven personal vendetta, I don't know why you split that into two different topics, they're not mutually exclusive indeed they're intertwined, the ideology gives her a sense of entitlement and that entitlement is the justification for the vendetta. The nature of anger is unmet expectations, if you have no expectations then there's no reason to get angry.

What do I expect? I expect to be treated fairly.

What I do know for sure is that all of your conclusions include them being triggered and not you, who recently created threads on toxic femininity, gender-bent fantasy, and objectification. You also participated in the toxic masculinity thread and the class differences in relationships thread. While these are recent examples, you have been culture warring for years and have established patterns of seeking out conflict to appease your boredom.
I won't deny that I find these discussions interesting especially since they are so pertinent to the current cultural zeitgeist, I'm actually in the process of preparing a thread on that, it's about how this 3rd wave feminism is responsible for so many movies, TV shows and the US comics industry basically turning to shit.
What am I only allowed to talk about robots and AI?

You are being surgical with the context you invoke in order to construct a misleading narrative.
I'm exploring a topic and posting about my musings as I do, I guess maybe because I keep getting such a reaction and that reaction means I'm embroiled in discussions like this that it makes me think about the topic even more and thus it snowballs.
Also conspiracy theory much?
 

Hadoblado

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No that's not a better example, it's just a convenient one to you.

A gay person does not choose to be gay, and there are substantial investments in changing where they live to avoid a church. Furthermore, if they get attacked going past that church dressed up provocatively, and continue doing it for years, they do not then get to claim that the Church is seeking them out, nor that the Church has a vendetta against them personally.

You can post anywhere, but you choose to post where your most substantial engagement is from people that you know will oppose you.

Why is Chinese not particularly attractive short fat poorly dressed 6/10 timewaster bogan stupid selfish whore stringalonger girl an idiot for walking into predictable interpersonal consequences but you aren't? Note that I didn't tell you that you weren't allowed to talk about this stuff. I said that there are predictable responses that do not constitute you being sought out.

I'm not going to go any further. You can respond and have the last word if you like and I'll almost certainly read it but won't continue.
 

Cognisant

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I don’t think you’re a racist and I think Glairhaidh was way too eager to draw that conclusion.
Thank you.

I think for the most part you behaved pretty well, and that it’s reasonable to be confused by the signals she sent. It’s also alright to be upset, and it’s also pretty normal to tear down people you are rejected by as part of removing the halo effect and moving on. This is all expected.
A somewhat backhanded concession but I'll take it.

The reality you convey is one in which men who do bad things are just something that happens, but in which women’s traits and actions are under the microscope.

You're not the victim of a double standard. You did something shitty (calling someone vulnerable a selfish stupid whore when they are at their lowest point) and are proud of it. If a woman did something similar to a man while they were vulnerable and they were proud of it I would make the same criticism. I have made the same criticism and done so at the potential cost to my career. Double standards do exist but that doesn't mean that it's impossible that your poor behaviour is bad. You live in a cruel bitter fantasy land.
Alright I skipped over most of that post because it was clearly written in a rush and you basically reiterated your point in a more comprehensible way at the end.

That is actually a valid point, two wrongs don't make a right, she may have been shitty to me but losing my patience with her and saying that her lowest point was... I wouldn't say entirely uncalled for because in retrospect I think she was manipulating me from the start, but again two wrongs don't make a right, so yes that was unnecessary.

But I'm not going to let you or anyone crucify me over it because what I said was entirely factual (given a colloquial definition of "whore") she was using me selfishly, she was objectively being stupid effectively giving that guy money when she had every reason (and a group of people advising her) to stay away from him, and finally she was actively stringing me along while clearly pursuing him, hell he even paid her for a handjob if you insist on the usage of "whore" being literal.

I will not apologize for stating the truth and sure stating it at such a bad time was certainly inconsiderate of me but given the context I still don't think I owed her my consideration.
 

Cognisant

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A gay person does not choose to be gay, and there are substantial investments in changing where they live to avoid a church.
I did not choose to be straight either and I didn't say he moved there, you're twisting my example into a strawman.

Furthermore, if they get attacked going past that church dressed up provocatively, and continue doing it for years, they do not then get to claim that the Church is seeking them out, nor that the Church has a vendetta against them personally.
So what he should just move away? Isn't that just conceding to victim-hood, allowing them to have the influence they don't deserve? An how is a vendetta of all things not personal?

You can post anywhere, but you choose to post where your most substantial engagement is from people that you know will oppose you.
Are you advocating I seek out an echo chamber?
Yes I like to debate, this is a forum, are you going to censor me because the things I choose to talk about are too controversial?

If I was a neo-Nazi or a staunch racist that wouldn't be controversial, I'm sure almost all of us can agree that they're idiots and we don't want them here, and if the majority of the forum cracks down on me for voicing my unpopular opinions then rightly or wrongly I'll have to leave. I know this.

Why is Chinese not particularly attractive short fat poorly dressed 6/10 timewaster bogan stupid selfish whore stringalonger girl an idiot for walking into predictable interpersonal consequences but you aren't?
I was an idiot, not as much of an idiot as her but yeah I did involve myself with her and that was a mistake and if I hadn't I wouldn't have been an idiot, well no in that regard, there's still a base level of general idiocy.

Anyway what was I supposed to do, not date anyone ever so nobody makes a fool of me?

Note that I didn't tell you that you weren't allowed to talk about this stuff. I said that there are predictable responses that do not constitute you being sought out.
And dair can ignore me any time she likes, there's even a block feature, so why is the onus on me to censor myself to prevent conflict when that conflict is her coming at me and making a fool of herself?

I'm not going to go any further. You can respond and have the last word if you like and I'll almost certainly read it but won't continue.
Ah see dair that's how it's done.
 

sushi

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@dair
alot of people treat other people as subhumans. The golden rule rarely applies in real life, people have double standards, one for themselves and one for other people.

for example , a stabber with a knife rarely think about the feeling of himself being stabbed when he commits the crime.
 

Puffy

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Uh-huh, live laugh love and all that basic bitch bullshit.

I don’t think you or dair are totally wrong, I’m sure everyone can agree that being a better person is always going to be good thing but as advice it’s tautological and worthless. I reject this narrative that there’s anything particularly wrong with me, I’m not lacking in honesty or selflessness, it’s not my fault this person rejected me, I offered and she declined it’s as simple as that and there is nothing I could have done different to change the outcome, simply put it wasn’t my decision to make.

Do you disagree with any of that?

Because if you don’t then for fuck sake stop trying to put this back on me, stop trying to prove that I’m flawed, yeah I’m not perfect but nor is anyone and we all have our reasons so why are you being so damn insistent on making me out to be the bad guy?

I can tell you why, because it serves your self-aggrandizing 3rd wave feminist narrative that men are flawed and women are flawless.

You're not.

I'm not a woman, Cog, I'm a straight white guy like you. While I'm in favour of gender equality, I'm not an SJW or a third wave feminist.

Observe the tone of my posts, and especially dair's latter ones, and they're quite calm in tone. It's really evident that I'm not offended by any of your posts or triggered by anything you're saying.

But even though I'm being quite calm and non-aggressive, I can see you're evidently triggered by what I'm saying. You can't help but perceive it as threatening or hostile, or like I'm trying to blame you, or prove you're flawed. Where that simply isn't there, I'm even saying this "flaw" is one I share.

That isn't my motive for posting at all. It's because I saw dair highlight something really important (I'm talking about the radical self-interest thing here) that I feel like if you recognised in yourself and did something about that you'd make breakthroughs in your life that will lead to you becoming much happier. That's also why I say that dair must care about you, even if unconsciously, as she wouldn't highlight this to you, what would make you happier, unless that were true.

Though there's a million in one chance of my post landing with you, it's still worth it to me even just to demonstrate that someone who has no reason to have a vendetta with you is also able to see it.

You're getting angry and calling me entitled as you're projecting your entitlement onto me. It's a super common aspect of human psychology which everyone does when they don't want to recognise an unpleasant truth that is being presented to them. It's far easier to simply dismiss it by blaming that trait on the outer environment, to see it in anything but yourself.

The reality is that radical self-interest and entitlement are in essence the same thing, Cog. Someone only becomes radically self-interested or entitled if they believe there is something special about them that sets them apart from other people. It's just a defence mechanism against feeling rejected by the community they secretly long to be a part of, "I'm lonely because I'm special, I'm lonely because others won't be able to understand me" etc. And their obsessions just a way of compensating for what they don't have: human connection and belonging. It doesn't have to be that way.

The reality is that no one is special. We either all are special or no one is. And that none of us are perfect and all have our own flaws. That's why we have to help each other out together.

It seems hado is highlighting the entitlement word to you as well now. Personally if I had 3 intelligent people highlight something to me that'd give me pause to consider whether I might be wrong and listen. As I'm deeply interested in and see value in the truth beyond my own distorted lens. That's why I listened when my friend highlighted this same trait to me. Like dair said, best of luck.
 

washti

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Bogan (/ˈboʊɡən/ BOHG-ən[1]) is Australian and New Zealand slang for a person whose speech, clothing, attitude, and behavior are considered unrefined or unsophisticated. Depending on the context, the term can be pejorative or self-deprecating.[2] The prevalence of the term bogan has also been associated with changing social attitudes towards social class in Australia.
Since the 1980s, the bogan has become a very well-recognized subculture, often as an example of bad taste.


Slavs are a European ethnolinguistic group of people who speak the various Slavic languages of the larger Balto-Slavic linguistic group of the Indo-European languages. Slavs are the largest ethnolinguistic group in Europe.[2][3] Present-day Slavic people are classified into East Slavs (chiefly Belarusians, Russians, Rusyns, and Ukrainians), West Slavs (chiefly Czechs, Kashubs, Poles, Slovaks, and Sorbs), and South Slavs (chiefly Bosniaks, Bulgarians, Croats, Macedonians, Montenegrins, Serbs, and Slovenes).


How this isn't racist? I'm curious.

Basically, Cog's equating whole ethnic group to the example of derogatory name for lower social class( 'shitty flatmate, old fat hooker').

During a get-together with the whole friend group she tells us about her shitty flatmates, one of whom is an old fat hooker who during an argument with the other flatmate stripped naked and went to attack him with a belt, she took a video with her phone, we were all quite horrified. In Australia these are what we call bogans, they're like US rednecks and European slavs, so anyway her bogan hooker flatmate has regular male visitors one of whom takes off his pants in front of her (the girl I was dating) and gets her to jerk him off.
 

Cognisant

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Basically, Cog's equating whole ethnic group to the example of derogatory name for lower social class( 'shitty flatmate, old fat hooker').
Yes her Australian flatmate was a bogan, I wasn't calling the Chinese girl a bogan and even if I did that would be because I think she is a bogan and not because I think all Chinese people are bogans.

Oh you're offended that I'm equating slavs to bogans?
My understanding of the term comes from watching Life of Boris and Uamee on Youtube, I didn't realize it was a race I thought it was a socioeconomic demographic known mostly for drunkenness, delinquency, driving shitbox cars and listening to HARDBASS.


Edit: Oh I see it's gopniks that I was referring to, my bad.
 

Hadoblado

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I'm assuming he means gopnik subculture which, unless things are completely different up there on the mainland, doesn't meaningfully exist here outside of shallow imitation. It's a culture we hear about through memes absent any of the cultural or class tensions. Similarly, we know about jewish people mostly through southpark...

NVM Cog's got it. It's not that what he said can't be interpreted as racist, it's that the environmental pressures that create such bias are absent. Similarly, if you said something ignorant about Australian aboriginals I would assume you were misspeaking because I just don't see how you would have developed strong opinions from all the way over there.
 

washti

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Similarly, if you said something ignorant about Australian aboriginals I would assume you were misspeaking because I just don't see how you would have developed strong opinions from all the way over there.
When some culture or group spark my interest I form my opinions by educating myself about terms I use and the context they are used mostly talking with different people. I wouldn't really on yt or South Park. Just basic respect for differences.
But you ofc could be more comfortable with showing ignorance and being corrected later or not at all. (it's just a guess)

Not that I think you guys should be interested, but Gopnik is a Russian subculture, not some overboard Slavic one.

Thanks for the clarification.
 

Hadoblado

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Yeah, I am (comfortable that is). I tend not to care about cultural differences until I'm given a reason to, seeing cultures largely as alternative sets of limitation of thought rather than as expansive lenses. I try to be respectful and open, but in response to new information, not as a proactive venture in fear of ever causing offense.
 

Cognisant

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@Puffy
Alright so you're not entitled, you're still possibly brainwashed.

@Hado
This goes for you too, I'll admit when you have one valid point but even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Thing is as an egoist I find doing something to prove my selflessness utterly repulsive, like adopting a puppy with mange, I have no objections with the act itself aside from the fact that I live alone in a small unit so keeping a dog would be cruel*, what I object to is the virtue signalling, I would much rather, and regularly do, give to charity anonymously, even telling you that annoys me.

I have nothing to prove to any of you and I don't want to earn your approval, when I do something good I do it because it's right and the only approval I care about is my own.

If I have to demonstrate my "virtue" then I will gladly go unloved because nobody who expects me to prove that, to them, deserves mine.

That being said I am aware that I have a vengeful/defensive streak and unfortunately what goes around comes around which makes me my own worst enemy (by being everyone else's) when I feel I'm being backed into a corner.

*: Perhaps less cruel than the alternative but then I've considered such things at length and it tends to go to very dark "the ends justify the means" territory, after all why treat the symptoms when you could cure the disease?

Not that I think you guys should be interested, but Gopnik is a Russian subculture, not some overboard Slavic one.
Thank you for helping me not make as much of an fool of myself in future.
 

Deleted member 1424

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alot of people treat other people as subhumans. The golden rule rarely applies in real life, people have double standards, one for themselves and one for other people.

for example , a stabber with a knife rarely think about the feeling of himself being stabbed when he commits the crime.

I don't disagree. It's just a bad strategy. It scales poorly. If your personal behavoir scales poorly, then you should address it. It takes billions of people attending to their own small spheres. Like I said before, I don't want to be what kills us. I think this is a fair ask of anything that calls itself human.
 

Puffy

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@Cognisant :beauty::xen-wink:

@dair Thanks dair, I appreciate it as I get the impression you are select with your complements. I think for me it's mostly that I believe people are primarily emotionally driven, whether they acknowledge it or are able to see it or not. So, ironically, I find giving more focus to understanding your own and other's emotions winds up in helping people to be more impartial.

I actually think I get what you mean with the bodily metaphor and that I have a similar impression of humanity. I often think of us all as being like cells in one body, and that the wounds we carry, and try to heal, are a part of our cell's duty in flushing a disease, which afflicts other cells too, out of the body. So, like you say, it makes sense as a cell to act in a way which scales to benefit the body. As the cell thrives when the body thrives and suffers when the body suffers. If we're on a similar page I find it interesting anyway, just as I get the impression we're quite different people from different backgrounds nonetheless arriving at similar images/metaphors.

So much for what Derrida and the post-structuralists said about no one being able to truly understand each other and all that jazz. Anyway, bit of a derail I'm sure. :cat:
 

Hadoblado

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I'm not actually pinching my nose at your moral transgressions... I don't care. I just think you're garbage at egoism because you're a miserable fuck who lets bullshit culture war nonsense keep you perpetually frustrated and bitter.

How does eschewing virtue in fear of accidentally signaling it serve you? It doesn't. You are the victim of an internalised virtue not to signal virtue. And you're signaling it. In fact, by mentioning your charitable contributions you are going against your principle (not virtue signaling) and self-interest (doing this annoys you) in order to further signal and affirm your virtue.

Most people that claim to be altruistic are actually egoists sending false signals, most that claim to be egoists are acting against their own best interest in doing so. The privileged person is the one for whom virtue and self-interest align.
 

Cognisant

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How does eschewing virtue in fear of accidentally signaling it serve you? It doesn't. You are the victim of an internalised virtue not to signal virtue. And you're signaling it. In fact, by mentioning your charitable contributions you are going against your principle (not virtue signaling) and self-interest (doing this annoys you) in order to further signal and affirm your virtue.
I judge myself, my morality is my own, I gave you a peak under the hood to demonstrate it to you, not to get your opinion, it's a closed system and as such adding your opinion is neither required nor appreciated.

If you insist on evaluating me based on what I told you regardless whether your assessment is positive or negative it just goes to show why I shouldn't have told you, because you don't get it.
 

scorpiomover

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What's the point of this?
That you're advertising to go on Jerry Springer?
Your entertainment, I hope you enjoyed it.
That go on Jerry, dude. Or Montell. Or whatever other talk show / reality TV show is popular at the moment. Share your humour with the world.
 

Animekitty

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ego is a headspace where the center of the universe is you. so where dair wants cog to "care" that may be difficult because one to care still involves a subjective center and two egoism is intellect. it's not about feeling in the normal sense. cog rejects giving in to a higher force for example. the only force that is is not from without but the center. so even if feeling is dom it is center, if thinking is dom it is in the center. but ego-ism is an intellect that is it justifies all things by reason. there is no reason to involve emotion but to serve ego, the center. no center means nothing else is involved, such as giving in to an outside force.
 

BurnedOut

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Cog keeps making the mistake of being/sounding pragmatic in an intellectual forum.
 

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@Puffy
Thanks dair, I appreciate it as I get the impression you are select with your complements.

Haha. While that is very true, it has much more to do with my own flaws than the merit of other people or even the esteem in which I hold them. It often just feels rude and presumptuous of me to do. Trying to be better though. I am glad you're not insulted.

I think for me it's mostly that I believe people are primarily emotionally driven, whether they acknowledge it or are able to see it or not. So, ironically, I find giving more focus to understanding your own and other's emotions winds up in helping people to be more impartial.

Yes, I agree. If you do not acknowledge the emotional elements, then you cannot account for them and your accuracy and perception skews. At best it's a defense-mechanism and at worst deception. A rationalization is anything but rational, ironically.

I actually think I get what you mean with the bodily metaphor and that I have a similar impression of humanity. I often think of us all as being like cells in one body, and that the wounds we carry, and try to heal, are a part of our cell's duty in flushing a disease, which afflicts other cells too, out of the body. So, like you say, it makes sense as a cell to act in a way which scales to benefit the body. As the cell thrives when the body thrives and suffers when the body suffers. If we're on a similar page I find it interesting anyway, just as I get the impression we're quite different people from different backgrounds nonetheless arriving at similar images/metaphors.

***Nods vigorously***

Y'know society feels like a skinner's box wrapped in a prisoner's dilemma on a randomly electrified grid.
 

Kuu

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She does sound stupid and selfish tbh.

The real outrage here nobody is talking about:
so I lean in and look at her meaningfully, she just stares back. I ask her if she wants to kiss
:insane:

This thread is indeed hilarious.
 
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