# INTP Careers

#### Amoroso

##### Redshirt
Hi guys, I am awaiting entry to university and I am having trouble choosing the degrees/courses/majors.

I am interested in a wide variety of things: Environmental studies, Forestry, Wildlife, Biology, Research, Engineering, Architecture, Psychology, Neurology and probably many others which I have yet to discover. I just cant seem to settle on one because it appears that whenever I attempt to go along with one, my interest diminishes or to put in another way, perhaps my interest level in that particular field was not that high in the first place.

I have been thinking long but I am not sure what kind of a lifestyle and career I would like to have in the future.

One thing I would hope to have in my career is to have the opportunity to travel, to be able to practise my skills and abilities anywhere in the world. I would not like to have a desk-bound job, but a job that allows me to move around freely.

Just like to ask for some suggestions and opinions or experience in which you guys had since being INTPS, we have similar traits and interests.

Would really appreciate if you guys could share your insights! Thanks guys.

#### Base groove

##### Banned
Be a flight attendant who reads books on the side.

#### Absurdity

##### Prolific Member
Study something technical. You said you like engineering: go with that.

One thing I would hope to have in my career is to have the opportunity to travel, to be able to practise my skills and abilities anywhere in the world. I would not like to have a desk-bound job, but a job that allows me to move around freely.
Travel for work is rarely very sexy. Have you ever had a desk job?

#### Blarraun

##### straightedgy
One thing I would hope to have in my career is to have the opportunity to travel, to be able to practise my skills and abilities anywhere in the world. I would not like to have a desk-bound job, but a job that allows me to move around freely.
Freelancing, you can do it if you are an engineer or a writer. Wherever you have the internet access you would be able to establish your office. It requires discipline and skills, but it is not unachievable.

#### tvrgvryen

##### Ex regixie
My personal career interest lies in the field of aerospace engineering. I also suggest you consider forensics (criminal psychology is quite interesting) and neurological research. Working for a test-making company seems fun too... like, for College Board or something.

#### HAL9000

##### Member
Hmmmm.

If you educate yourself enough, you'll find your skills will afford you the opportunity to travel, regardless of whether it's dictated by the job or not.

What I mean is, if you're good enough, you'll be able to pick and choose where you work, rather than just going where a company might send you.

In essence: "I am so highly skilled in my field of expertise that I can quite confidently move to outer Mongolia and find a job there."

That's freedom!

#### TBerg

##### fallen angel who hasn't earned his wings
I just need to find a job that will allow me to afford part-time psychology classes at a university with a professor who has research with which I can build my resume.

Anyone have any insights or questions that will help me?

#### WALKYRIA

##### Active Member
Environmental studies, Forestry, Wildlife, Biology, Research, Engineering, Architecture, Psychology, Neurology and probably many others which I have yet to discover
Why tha fuck do you want to choose( your nature wants you to love all those things, why listening to society and restrict yourself to one thing?) ? Choose to not to choose.. choose everything/ nothing.

The problem with young INTPs is that our reality is initially too far away from the normal reality to be perfectly aware of who we are( you know when those sensors tell you to be "realistic" while all you dream about is to build an alternative reality in this reality.) .... We land little by little in the real world around the 25-30 years(Before that, we explore the maximum of possibilities !) . Thus by time we start university, we know nothing about ourselves.

It's really all about strategy... yes, choosing a path// a job for life is really all about strategy.
There are two ways you can approach things: breadth of competence- knowlegde(good for us but we need eat and have a family also which is incompatible with CLS( chronic learning syndrome) !) vs Hyperspecialisation (more for the focused INTJ).
A third-- and seemingly INTP preferred -- approach would be the hesitant P-loaded INTP approach : choose a main good job( pays well and works few hours combo) + learn he subjects that interest you in your freetime.

Another important thing: Take your time, your are not racing against other people. The competition o life is a competition with yourself foremost. So, please take time to appropriately feed your Ne with the maximum food that you can give to it while young.( Read voraciously , listen to a variety of music, learn many languages, take your time- waste time- be slow- start Uni later(21 vs immature 18 years old) - age doesn't mean anything on a global scale/ lifetime, travel the world, go out very often, attend many different classes, learn to pick up girls/ atleast interact with them,watch plenty of movies, live many experiences, live in different cultures...).
The growth of the Ne conditions our personal growth, at least that is my intuition.
I have plenty of IN*P friends who seems kinda lost because all heir lives, they have relied solely on their-- many times biased assumptions and approximations in life--, they were self-sufficient and too arrogant to face(and go beyond) their limitations...( Yeah, I have this also in a milder way) and have thus followed a route that initially wasn't theirs. Now they are all lost because they are gradually realizing the enormous discrepancy between the real world and their o'so big dreams.
So yeah, Ne is the key for growth in IN*P. Fe comes naturally along with Ne.

#### Hawkeye

##### Banned
Teaching ESOL is great for unleashing the inner grammar Nazi.

##### Death is coming
Why tha fuck do you want to choose( your nature wants you to love all those things, why listening to society and restrict yourself to one thing?) ? Choose to not to choose.. choose everything/ nothing.

The problem with young INTPs is that our reality is initially too far away from the normal reality to be perfectly aware of who we are( you know when those sensors tell you to be "realistic" while all you dream about is to build an alternative reality in this reality.) .... We land little by little in the real world around the 25-30 years(Before that, we explore the maximum of possibilities !) . Thus by time we start university, we know nothing about ourselves.

It's really all about strategy... yes, choosing a path// a job for life is really all about strategy.
There are two ways you can approach things: breadth of competence- knowlegde(good for us but we need eat and have a family also which is incompatible with CLS( chronic learning syndrome) !) vs Hyperspecialisation (more for the focused INTJ).
A third-- and seemingly INTP preferred -- approach would be the hesitant P-loaded INTP approach : choose a main good job( pays well and works few hours combo) + learn he subjects that interest you in your freetime.

Another important thing: Take your time, your are not racing against other people. The competition o life is a competition with yourself foremost. So, please take time to appropriately feed your Ne with the maximum food that you can give to it while young.( Read voraciously , listen to a variety of music, learn many languages, take your time- waste time- be slow- start Uni later(21 vs immature 18 years old) - age doesn't mean anything on a global scale/ lifetime, travel the world, go out very often, attend many different classes, learn to pick up girls/ atleast interact with them,watch plenty of movies, live many experiences, live in different cultures...).
The growth of the Ne conditions our personal growth, at least that is my intuition.
I have plenty of IN*P friends who seems kinda lost because all heir lives, they have relied solely on their-- many times biased assumptions and approximations in life--, they were self-sufficient and too arrogant to face(and go beyond) their limitations...( Yeah, I have this also in a milder way) and have thus followed a route that initially wasn't theirs. Now they are all lost because they are gradually realizing the enormous discrepancy between the real world and their o'so big dreams.
So yeah, Ne is the key for growth in IN*P. Fe comes naturally along with Ne.

Good post.

P-loaded INTP approach : choose a main good job( pays well and works few hours combo) + learn he subjects that interest you in your freetime.
That sounds nice, finding a mildly compatible "day job" is not so easy though.

#### Analyzer

##### Hide thy life
Good post.

That sounds nice, finding a mildly compatible "day job" is not so easy though.
Your using the medium right now to assist that.

##### Death is coming
Your using the medium right now to assist that.
Huh?

I'm guessing? that you mean using the internet for job searches?

If so, "har har".

If not, I have no idea.

#### Steven Gerrard

##### Singing or frowning
I just need to find a job that will allow me to afford part-time psychology classes at a university with a professor who has research with which I can build my resume.

Anyone have any insights or questions that will help me?
Lol I'm only 19 and not a respected member of this (any) society so take my answer with a grain of salt.

But when I was younger I made the mistake of doing what my parents do and cramming every second of ever day into something validated by other's or society. Then I tried it and got depressed, not enough time to myself to wander, dropped out of everything. Time and stress made me 'not give a fuck' which was helpful. Recently I learned I can in fact hold down a full time job, and that people like me. Now my plan is to play the rugged itinerant and work where I find myself, travel a lot and be okay with just scraping by. I mean all I need is like nutritious food (banana's are thirty cents) and to survive really.

If you were to take your classes and work wouldn't you be exhausted? Wouldn't it be easier to do one at a time? Like showing up every day for work is easy enough once I got used to it, but If I had to expend energy (it takes up all my energy, Fe all day) doing that, and going to a course, with all the planning and travelling... I couldn't do it.

Maybe no easy answer but it might be exhausting to do that. Consider just living where you are living and taking your courses- if you are ACTUALLY interested in it.

On the other side holding down a job made me feel great about myself- so there's that. If you have never had a job for a while-ish it might be a great load off of your back to know you can do it. I was terrified and thought I couldn't until recently.

Not to be too familiar but I seem to recall some of your posts elsewhere on this forum so yeah.

#### Pyropyro

##### Magos Biologis
Hi guys, I am awaiting entry to university and I am having trouble choosing the degrees/courses/majors.

I am interested in a wide variety of things: Environmental studies, Forestry, Wildlife, Biology, Research, Engineering, Architecture, Psychology, Neurology and probably many others which I have yet to discover. I just cant seem to settle on one because it appears that whenever I attempt to go along with one, my interest diminishes or to put in another way, perhaps my interest level in that particular field was not that high in the first place.
All of those are great choices (research is in all disciplines so it doesn't count) so select anything that you wish. In any case, any of them will provide you with education and experience, good materials to help you grow.

I have been thinking long but I am not sure what kind of a lifestyle and career I would like to have in the future.
Stop thinking and start doing We're not exactly the best planners out there.

One thing I would hope to have in my career is to have the opportunity to travel, to be able to practise my skills and abilities anywhere in the world. I would not like to have a desk-bound job, but a job that allows me to move around freely.
Traveling while improving skills is a bit tricky. I agree with Absurdity that travel while working is rarely the romantic notion that it claims to be. Should you prefer to walk this path then I suggest getting skills that are practiced as you travel like new foreign languages.

#### Polaris

Hi guys, I am awaiting entry to university and I am having trouble choosing the degrees/courses/majors.

I am interested in a wide variety of things: Environmental studies, Forestry, Wildlife, Biology, Research, Engineering, Architecture, Psychology, Neurology and probably many others which I have yet to discover. I just cant seem to settle on one because it appears that whenever I attempt to go along with one, my interest diminishes or to put in another way, perhaps my interest level in that particular field was not that high in the first place.

I have been thinking long but I am not sure what kind of a lifestyle and career I would like to have in the future.

One thing I would hope to have in my career is to have the opportunity to travel, to be able to practise my skills and abilities anywhere in the world. I would not like to have a desk-bound job, but a job that allows me to move around freely.

Just like to ask for some suggestions and opinions or experience in which you guys had since being INTPS, we have similar traits and interests.

Would really appreciate if you guys could share your insights! Thanks guys.
If you do a Bachelor of Environmental Management and/or ecology/earth science/geology related you should be able to not only get plenty of work, but also be able to travel to very interesting places with it.

I'm currently about to complete a degree in Environmental Science and Management with ecology/Earth science major/minors. There is an ever-increasing demand for people with this kind of expertise in all aspects of industry and also in academia if you are that way inclined. Ecology and Earth sciences allow you to span across a wide area of science fields such as biology, climatology, zoology, evolutionary theory, GIS and remote sensing, wildlife and vegetation management, social politics, geology, chemistry, river hydrology and morphology, conservation biology and many other related disciplines. I have studied areas of all the above...(my head is exploding). It is great in the way that it encompasses a wide knowledge area, whilst introducing you to subjects you may want to study further in depth doing post-grad work, for example. The limitations in spanning so widely is obviously that you cannot possibly study everything in great depth, which is why I choose to read widely whenever I research for assignments and such.

However, the basic principles taught in these types of courses set you up for managing and understanding most systems - and don't we love systems

The stuff I have learnt in my research into the myriad of topics has satisfied and not to mention stimulated my voracious appetite for researching further into these topics; you begin to realise the importance of every single component of all systems and how very small changes trigger unbelievably significant reactions. It is micro-and macro focussed, and you will never run out of things to research.

The kind of work that is in demand in these fields at the moment are things like field ecologists working for various public and private companies designing and implementing resource and conservation management plans, conducting research projects, etc. You could get work in waterways management, urban environmental management, marine or inland fisheries, parks and reservation management, etc. You could also work doing consultancy in environmental impact assessment for mining companies and other large industry. The money here would be significant if you are interested in the bigger dollar figures.

Or you could like me, push for a career as a researcher/specialist, and get into academia....and be poorer, but in my case, happier as I have already finished a career in the private sector and wanted to expand my knowledge base.

Here's a snapshot of what is happening job-wise in Australia at the moment:

Summary of this week's NRMjobs

Queensland job vacancies:

1 Regional Landcare Facilitator, Southern Gulf Catchments Ltd, $58-64k, Mt Isa 2 Landcare Coordinator, Special Projects & Project Officer (3 positions), SW NRM, Charleville 3 Technical Officers: Weeds, Pests, Biodiversity, Vegetation (x2), QMDC, Goondiwindi 4 Hydrology Data Technician, The Response Centre, Brisbane 5 Program Manager - Science & Innovation, Healthy Waterways Ltd,$90-100k, Brisbane
N.S.W. job vacancies:

6 Admin & Operations Support Officer (SE), AWC, Scotia Wildlife Sanctuary, near Wentworth
7 Manager - North West Area, NSW Trade & Investment, to $141k, Tamworth 8 Senior Wetlands & Rivers Conservation Officer, OEH, to$129k, Dubbo
9 Botanist, Biosis Pty Ltd, Wollongong
10 Forest and Woodlands Campaigner (pt), Nature Conservation Council of NSW, $60k, Sydney 11 Garden Care Coordinator, Canterbury City Community Centre, Sydney 12 Senior Park Officer, Western Sydney Parklands & Parramatta Parks Trusts, to$117k, Sydney
13 Apprentice (Nursery), Randwick City Council, $19-43k, Sydney A.C.T. job vacancies: 14 Chief Executive Officer, Greening Australia - Capital Region, Canberra Victorian job vacancies: 15 Farm Water Program Support Officer, Goulburn Broken CMA, Shepparton 16 Partnerships & Engagement Team Leader, WGCMA,$93-126k, Traralgon or Leongatha
17 Team Member Labourers - Arboriculture (x2), Transfield Services, Mornington Peninsula
18 2IC Fire Management, Transfield Services, Mornington Peninsula
19 Bushland Maintenance Specialist, Western Plains Flora, Sunbury
20 Senior Research Scientist - Sustainable Agriculture, cesar, $65-72k, Melbourne 21 Environment Protection Officer, City of Whittlesea,$60-80k, Melbourne
22 Coordinator Environmental Planning, City of Whittlesea, $93-105k, Melbourne 23 Executive Director, Seafood Industry Victoria, c$125k, Melbourne
24 Technical Assistant, Biosis Pty Ltd, Melbourne
25 Maintenance Crew Member, Australian Ecosystems, Melbourne
26 Skilled Landscape Labourer, Australian Ecosystems, Melbourne
South Australian job vacancies:

27 Water Resources Manager, DEWNR, $91-100k, either Mt Barker, Murray Bridge or Berri 28 Water Allocation Planning Officer, DEWNR,$62-65k, Murray Bridge
29 District Officer, DEWNR, $62-65k, Gawler 30 Regional Landcare Facilitator, DEWNR,$62-65k, Lobethal
31 NRM Plan Project Officer - Aboriginal Engagement, DEWNR, $70-78k, Adelaide Northern Territory job vacancies: 32 Senior Park Rangers (several), Parks & Wildlife Commission,$70-80k, various locations
33 Timber Creek Ranger Coordinator, Northern Land Council, $59-69k, Timber Creek 34 Regional Fire Control Officers, Bushfires NT,$70-80k, Tennant Creek, Katherine & Batchelor
35 Land Resource, Admin & Fire Project positions (x4), Central Land Council, Alice Springs
36 Weed Management Planner - NT Government, Dept of Land Resource Management, Palmerston
37 Program Coordinator, Northern Land Council, $80-93k, Darwin Western Australian job vacancies: 38 Admin & Operations Support Officer, Aust Wildlife Conservancy, Mornington Wildlife Sanctuary 39 Ranger, Dept of Parks & Wildlife,$47-59K+, Pilbara Region
40 Species Conservation Project Coordinator (pt), WWF, location negotiable within SW Ecoregion
41 Manager (Regional Invasive Species Program), Dept of Agriculture & Food, \$91-101k, Bunbury
42 Planning for Climate Change Project Manager, Perth Region NRM, Perth
43 Coastal and Marine Program Manager, Perth Region NRM, Perth
44 Stakeholder Engagement Coordinator (pt), Perth Region NRM, Perth
Tenders & Consultancies:

45 Tender: WM Pipeline Wetlands Hydrological Enhancement Project, Wimmera CMA, Victoria

Grants, Board Members, Volunteers, Awards Etc:

47 Volunteer: Environmental Charity Seeks Media Volunteer, Bushcare's Major Day Out, Sydney
Conferences & Events:

48 5th Victorian Weeds Conference, 13-15 May 2014, Weed Society of Victoria, Geelong, Victoria
49 Event: Women in Conservation breakfast, 6 March 2014, Melbourne
50 Australian Wildlife Rehabilitation Conference, 27-30 May, Hobart, Tasmania
51 Event: 5th National NRM Knowledge Conference, 17-19 March, Launceston, Tasmania

#### WALKYRIA

##### Active Member
Good post.
I know, Thanks dude, I just love to inspire youngsters to seek greatness and to not waste talent.

1- Another thing you should do is getting lost... IN other words, let serendipity take care of you. If you do so, two things can possibly happen:- positive things( meet randomly good/great people, get randomly new and exciting experiences..etc) or negative things(If they don't kill you...(exactly)... they'll make you stronger by tapping in you inferior functions... from that basically, you'll become a better person, you'll grow and develop your inferior or even unconscious/shadow functions).

So yeah, get lost in the world( with the background thought that you'll be back one day, and you'll be back stronger and more able to reach greatness!).

.... Seek Greatness, all the time. If you keep that goal in mind, curiously... great things will automatically happen, since for greatness to be achieved you need to develop outstanding qualities. Greatness implies to have as a main job not only a good-sounding job, but a job in which you have the potential to excel on a world-widely( or nationally) fashion. I laugh when I hear that an INTP chose a job in science... jobs in science are for memorizers( sensors) or scientists(INTJ) not for innovators or theoreticians . Don't want to sound INTPcentrist but our purpose as INTPs- the way we can fulfill our potential to it's maximum- is to create new theories, switch paradigms and upgrade them, mainly by using Ti-Ne= Research activity. I've recently realized that I didnt love science( I mean the modern science based solely on accumulation of knowledge...) that much, what I love is the possibilities that arises with science... the potential of science to make this world an even more beautiful and amazing place, the possibility of science to erase poverty and malnutrition, the possibility of science to heal AIDS, cancer and to take human longevity to a whole new level(200 years), to decelerate the aging process, to connect with extraterrestrial communities.. THAT is what I love about science, the innovation, the research,the brainstorming, the creativity, the models... Things that you cannot get in our schools sadly.

Ok, so what do I mean here? Don't choose a job if you don't feel you can be astoundingly great at it, It's just not worth it at the long term.... Let's say you have 4 outstanding abilities... Choose the job that uses 3 or 4 out of your 4 outstanding abilities( or functions) , that is how you can have a chance to be great comparatively to your peers. The more a job fulfills you at the maximum, the more you can become passionate and the more you can live accordingly to your job.
Also, remember that competence- comparatively to INTJs- alone is not our end goal. We actually don't have end goals. WE are creators, innovators and theory builders.( Actually we build better than we understand theories !) .

Perhaps, INTPs- contrary to INTJ- will never achieve- or even learn - anything great in academia setting unless they are very old and patient enough and have achieved independence to research what they want... Why? Because of he Ti... Ti I believe so is the most independent and inflexible function( While Ni is able to adapt pretty smoothly !). INTPs are the best when they have the freedom to research independently and in an integrative fashion. Which is rarely achieved in academia, where you need to "participate" and where you rarely mix disciplines... The concept of academia is sensor-laden ... Imagining that science is about to research in a certain microscopic field without ever confronting with other disciplines is completely fallacious. Science I believe so is about the big and intricate picture/puzzle. But science has lately been labeled with many other definitions I guess.

So to sum it all:
- accept serendipity
- aim for greatness
- be somewhere, a niche or something... where your abilities can be comparatively to your peers, very usefull.( I'll illustrate this with my case. Perhaps I have typically the mind of a philosopher/ dreamer/analyst/ creator/ rebel/artist and I went into something that at first sight was inappropriate for me( and yes I struggled)... medicine, where like-minded people almost don't exist... Here We find uncreative/ hardworking/ rule abiders/ practical / action people( THE smart SJs and NJs) ... Here People usually don't love research or the thinking domain... They love guidelines and action stuffs. Can you imagine the power and happiness of someone like me once I finish? A guy who can think in a world of uncreative, smart but dumb people? If I go on to do medical research, chances are that I will excell (research is my comfort zone) far more than the practical people you often find in medical research! SO yes, be somewhere where your gifts are in high demands...Perhaps an INTP going on to study philosophy or I.T has less chance to become great because you would be choosing a field with plenty of like minded people and where you can't get a chance to stand out and shine ! )
-choose a job that tap in your multi-dimensional abilities.( and not in one or two of your abilities).
- choose a job where you can be free like the wind... Independence baby.

##### Death is coming
.... Seek Greatness, all the time.

The same way as anybody else; by paradoxically working on and strengthening their first two functions. For example, I had this backwards for a much of my life, I was chasing my tail in an inferior grip. I thought that what I needed to do was an art, such as composing. Or that I need to achieve "great things" in physics (Fe inferior desire for acclaim). It was all the sirens call, what I really needed to be doing was day to day unglamorous Ti-Ne work; namely programming computers. By doing that the inferior then slips into the shadow of the dominants, and provides a beacon for my work (doing work that people fine useful) rather than a guide (I don't do what Fe tells me).
Contradictory advice? Is seeking greatness just our Fe inferior talking?

#### WALKYRIA

##### Active Member
Contradictory advice? Is seeking greatness just our Fe inferior talking?
Nope, not contradictory... I didnt reach greatness yet( I don't even know what that reprents !) but I know that I won't have enough with a "normal job" lol... I just need more, and you should need more once you realize that our society anesthetize us little by little to a point where we don't believe in us anymore and manage to be happy with a crappy to acceptable job.( mainly 95% of jobs !).
We give up on happpiness for a semblance of happiness, we do the dumb university because everybody does, go on to a crappy jobs because of our entourage... And why do we accept that? Because everybody else does it... Isolation from peers and family( and I mean real isolation !) is sometimes the best way to find where you really belong, once you do find it... You don't see the world as it was.

ok, now architect is way older than me and we are two different peoplewith two different life experiences. Greatness is really not necessary for happiness... But what really is necessary for happiness? money? friends? love? Yeah... There are plenty of happy but yet miserable people.
Happiness is a fallacy of the mind. A concept? WHo knows? Remember that before the technological era, people didnt really care about happiness( actually they didnt really know the concept very good I guess!)... they only cared about eating, working very hard, finding a good woman, raising kids, and enjoying the little pleasures of life. The more a society becomes freer and comfortable...And thus boring; the more its people feel the need to seek for ways to complicate it, to make it more sophisticated. How to live a happy life? How to get a good job satisfaction?...Etc... When you push this mechanism to its furthest... You arrive invariably to the question: How to live the greatest life; How to be great?

I think it depends from how extreme you are ready to bring things...
What I mean here is that, knowing that you only live once.. Why not aim for the greatest life you can afford to have? Why not be the very best version of yourself? Why limiting yourself to the mere normalcy? Seriously.. all these INTP gifts for a mere normal life? Sighhh

Architect I'm sure if he had have the chance to be great( maybe he is in his own way)... well he wouldnt be speaking like that. I have remarked that INTPs on INTP forum tend to generalize-- on the same way that I'm doing-- their experiences.
They are many sub-types of INTPs.

And yeah, our Fe forces us to want a general approval.... so greatness( intellectual or creative success) is maybe a side effect of our Fe.

#### Polaris

Inferior Fe all right.

How about realising the truth, which is usually what happens to most drifters by the time they get to 40-something; they haven't achieved the great things they wanted to achieve and start regretting the fact they did not get a formal education earlier in life.

My aim is to be happy in what I am doing, which is enough for me. Great is a delusion if that is your main goal. Follow your passion and you will be more likely to succeed. But don’t deceive yourself into thinking this is going to happen with minimal effort or by dodging the usual pathways.

By the time I had reached 2nd year at my dumb university, I had already received two job offers from my lecturers because they realised I’m here to work hard and I have an insatiable curiosity for how systems work.

I landed a job in a highly competitive industry, but realised after a year the limitations of this particular field. My mentors were putting on the pressure so I opted out before becoming too committed. So in that sense, Walkyria is right; you could potentially become trapped in a very limited field....but to opt out of acquiring a formal education with that justification as reason, you will not get very far unless you are exceptionally driven, extraordinarily talented in an entrepreneurial way and hard-working.

As Walkyria said, he hasn't reached greatness yet - but while he is waiting he may as well get as much experience and learning under his belt as possible. It’s never going to harm anyone.

I completed an initial degree that would guarantee me work in order to have a job with a good income so that I could use that to support myself financially while pursuing further studies; in other words, I did exactly what Walkyria suggested. The only problem was I got ill, and was no longer able to continue in this field. So now I am studying part time while supporting myself through a full-time job which only pays a third of the income I used to have. The point here being no matter how much you plan things, obstacles may come up so you need a back-up plan.

The problem with my back-up plan was that the back-up plan failed....I have a degree in a field of work I am no longer able to pursue for health reasons - so I had to start from scratch. In this process I have acquired new skills such as web-building and management, basic coding, and small business management. So, you may be clever and plan things, but you can never predict outcomes.

You can scoff at getting a university education, but I now prefer to scoff at people who dismiss this idea based on the very limited perspective that is based on pure arrogant and short-sighted speculation; that getting the right sort of tickets for personal advancement are a stupid idea. The reason you could go wrong with a university degree is the same reason you could go wrong with the advice to not follow the "dumb" ways.

So, be smart and get the dumb ticket.

#### Architect

##### Professional INTP
Architect I'm sure if he had have the chance to be great( maybe he is in his own way)... well he wouldnt be speaking like that. I have remarked that INTPs on INTP forum tend to generalize-- on the same way that I'm doing-- their experiences.
My commentary around this has a specific background, which is partly personal experience and the other part theoretical. On a personal level with regards to my personally having achieved greatness or not ... well to answer that you'd have to give a clearer definition of "greatness". At any rate I'll say something here which I've avoided so far*, which is suffice it to say I personally feel that I've achieved "greatness", in some sense, several times over. One example is having become one of the best young (20 some) musicians in the world, culminating in touring the top halls in Europe (including the Musikverein where Mozart and Beethoven performed), and within five years dropping it all and getting into one of the top five PhD programs in the world in arguably the hardest subject, having previously flunked algebra three times. That's no mean accomplishment, and I have others that are completely unrelated to that example.

The second part of my personal experience is that I found that trying to achieve greatness is self defeating. By sheer will-power you can do it - I did - but at a huge cost that isn't sustainable. And once you've done it ... so what? What do you have, that you once were some guy that was good at something? There's a million more before and after you, and your accomplishments are already forgotten. The fact that you did something "great" is meaningless (personally and publicly frankly) after the fact. Consider Madonna, why the hell do you think she is still up there strutting her aging stuff, hasn't she achieved enough greatness for one person? No, because it's done - who cares that she was the "material girl" anymore?

The theoretical aspect of it has a firm typological basis, which is the desire for greatness is our Fe luring us onto rocky shoals. It want's public acclaim - greatness - in the worst way possible. It's insatiable too, give it a little, and it wants more and more. I was probably unusual, most of the time going after greatness will induce you to produce hurried, slipshod work. Einstein certainly wasn't after that, as evidenced by him elbowing Charlie Chaplin and asking "What are they all cheering for?" when they were in front of a crowd of thousands. He was after truth (Ti/Ne), and a dose of beauty too (Fe), and got fame by accident.

When we're young and hormonal the siren call of our inferior is loud, but word to the wise, you're unlikely to achieve what your looking for by directly trying to get it. The process is a mirror of integrating our inferiors; which is done by paradoxically strengthening the dominants, within which the inferior falls into place. In other words, and I say this cautiously, desiring greatness isn't necessarily bad, but directly trying to achieve it is. At best it is a distant motivator.

I've got other work to do but the "INTP subtypes" comment deserves some debate.

* because what's more pathetic than crowing about past accomplishments?

#### redbaron

##### irony based lifeform
Architect said:
The second part of my personal experience is that I found that trying to achieve greatness is self defeating. By sheer will-power you can do it - I did - but at a huge cost that isn't sustainable. And once you've done it ... so what?

In other words, and I say this cautiously, desiring greatness isn't necessarily bad, but directly trying to achieve it is. At best it is a distant motivator.
Yep. Sums up what I was going to post.

#### Analyzer

##### Hide thy life
Regarding "Formal" Education or receiving a university degree - I think a lot of things are changing currently and very quickly. Tertiary Si and Inferior Fe might make us believe that there are traditions about university and getting a degree that are important. University studies has only been something that is widespread within the last 50 years or less. Now we are fed propaganda how everyone should get a degree and get in thousands and possibly hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt for a degree in a liberal arts program. The knowledge and not to mention practical job skills, can be achieved outside of a traditional classroom environment which can save time and lost income.

Today a degree is necessary for fields that require it. Academia, Medicine, Law come to mind as the few that do. This could possibly even change soon. Clinical Medicine is essentially a management based field that is being overtaken and evolved by technology. Governance and legal systems are becoming more irrelevant by the day as they implode due to their failed economic systems of central planning. Yes there will still be a realm of a reputation system that regulates accreditation and licensing, but does this have to be done with the old model of universities and the issuing of degrees? What types of work is this necessary for?

#### WALKYRIA

##### Active Member
The second part of my personal experience is that I found that trying to achieve greatness is self defeating. By sheer will-power you can do it - I did - but at a huge cost that isn't sustainable. And once you've done it ... so what?
Yeah, I kinda agree... so what? MY guess is that It served you to become who you are now.
I'm sure the great things you achieved in your life participated directly or indirectly to your success, well-being, peace of mind/peace of ego and convictions you have achieved now.
Although I agree that having a nobel prize or the like isn't that important on a whole , having one or two of them is just amazing( and participates in our well-being), because it feels like the only thing able to fulfill our enormous egos... We INTPs have just big egos, that's a fact, therefore we need big and wide recognition(not just recognition from our family or from our friends or teachers!) .

But then, Life would be much much more easier and happier if we didn't had the ego factor who forces us to seek for things we don't need( money, power, recognition, greatness, truth, competence, happiness). I guess humans we are doomed/ have a psychological defect that makes it difficult for us to get the perfect balance we need.

#### doncarlzone

##### Useless knowledge
But then, Life would be much much more easier and happier if we didn't had the ego factor who forces us to seek for things we don't need( money, power, recognition, greatness, truth, competence, happiness). I guess humans we are doomed/ have a psychological defect that makes it difficult for us to get the perfect balance we need.
I bet you can rationalize how your dreams of external validation and approval are somewhat pathetic, yet you still feel the urge to pursue those self defeating dreams as Architect puts it. However, I think as you grow older and hopefully mature, those same dreams may even start to feel pathetic as well, so it is not just on an intellectual level anymore. I've already felt this change within myself on several occasions and I see no reason why this would stop.

You will always want external validation, however, perhaps receiving it through integrity and a humble ego may prove to be a lot more rewarding than through the facade of your ego. The first change as I see it, is when you look at other people differently. When you start to value other people differently, you will start to value yourself differently. Some would argue it's the other way around, I'm not sure to be honest.

So do you look up to big egos? I personally dislike big egos a lot, though I used to look up to them and even lived my life accordingly. Perhaps we all have to learn it the hard way though? I sure hope not.

Got me thinking of this quote:
“I hope everybody could get rich and famous and will have everything they ever dreamed of, so they will know that it's not the answer.”

#### Amoroso

##### Redshirt
Hi Guys, thank you so much for all your inputs. They are invaluable to me for I am currently lost in trying to figure out my purpose in this world haha I feel like I'm in limbo sometimes (okay you've got me, most of the time).

To polaris/walkyria/architect:

I am really considering environmental studies/ Ecology. I know I love nature and I think doing research work may be satisfying. But one thing I would like to acheive too, is environment conservation. I was thinking if studying engineering could allow me to come up with a practical solution to the problems threatening nature today (Deforestation, climate change, etc.). As much as I like research (I think), I do not want to feel helpless in combating global environmental problems but I really want to immerse myself in nature, discovering more things about plants & animal species, and this is something that studying engineering, may limit me from. I guess this is where I am conflicted.

People around me has been discouraging me from doing environmental studies/ecology (generally research work evolving around nature) One argument is that 'So what if you find out about a new species that is interesting but is not beneficial to humans? what is the point?' Another point is that 'haha no one would bother financing/sponsoring your research work if it is not going to benefit their organisation'. As much as I want to follow my heart, I guess money is essential for survival too.

Although I think I would like to go into research and spend my life in forests/seas/oceans, the practical side of me as well as the people around me are encouraging me to take up engineering--Stable income, able to make a difference. Besides those reasons, I myself, am interested in engineering as well. I'm interested to create solutions to problems we face today (Not only environmental, but medical problems too)

And I guess I somewhat agree with architect's POV that the feeling of greatness wears off, and that one would feel worthless once again. I am afraid of that prospect. But it think I will encounter that feeling in whichever path I choose. IMO, I feel that this boils down to the meaning of life, if the purpose of your life is to achieve this one thing, then I guess, the feeling of greatness once u achieve it, would stay with you for a lifetime. Unfortunately, I have yet to discover my purpose. Yes I am interested in this and that but Im not sure because I think they are merely, interests.

If I were to take up walkyria's recommendations and get a stable job then do my interests alongside, I am afraid that it may ultimately soil my plans in acheiveing something I really want in the future (but prevented from doing so due to my lack of skills/degree). And, to find a job that could use my multi-disciplinary skills, I think, is not easy because I am really still lost in discovering myself. I have little idea what kind of skills I have!

Thanks everybody for your contribution especially polaris, walkyria and architect. I can literally feel your passion over the computer. I will keep your reccommendations and insights in mind.

Side note:

Are we suppose to get notifications for any replies on threads because I didnt.. (sorry quite new here, still trying to learn how to work this forum)

And can we tag people? can people tag me?

#### redbaron

##### irony based lifeform
You can subscribe to threads for it to give you notifications I think. Although I never bother because I usuallu check the forum pretty frequently. Also the, "New posts" link up the top will show you all the threads that have been posted in since your last visit - so that's an easy way to catch up as well.