# Jobs and salary are for dumb people.

#### WALKYRIA

##### Active Member
There is a certain idea that is quite popular on the internet: having a job or working for someone, having a salary... is for dumb people. The best overall thing being finding a way to generate automatically money(with a blog for example or a product) while sleeping/practicing what you love in life or earning money doing what you love.

I kinda agree with this since a work or labourious labour is a constraint/restriction to overall happiness while practicing a passion or being a professional athlete or artist or researcher or blogger; max out happiness.

We can see happiness in job as = (salary+ prestige+ fun )/( time spent working+ emotional constraints + physical constraints )

watcha think/ do you agree? If so, what would be the best way to achieve that? elaborate please.

PS: One thing about INT* is that we are intellectuals and that having a job with fun and prestige is not difficult for us. Salary and constraints at the other side are a big problem since our natural passion(science in instance) is made boring to suit a world filled with ***Js academician , unable to work with uncertainty.

#### Cherry Cola

##### Banned
Since most blogs and most art sucks I think the Internet people are selfish narcissists who should be turned blue collars, seriously. Just look at YouTube or deviantart or whatever. So many people so little talent, why do they want to brandish themselves when all they show is ugliness?

I guess some of them are just tarded enough not to realize that they suck.

Most of them are hardly poor misunderstood INTPs with no other place in the world. Also what's with your obvious usage of MTBI to make excuses for failure and to claim superiority both at once? Defense mechanism Ofc, but geez at least know what you are talking about. J-academia lol, yeah no that's wrong.

#### Base groove

##### Banned
Blue collar work: dangerous, little prestige, little happiness, ages you quickly, long hours

Definitely not a competitive status.

#### Blarraun

##### straightedgy
Any work: ages you, little prestige, long hours

Obtain some revenue generating assets I tell you.

##### think again losers
If you can do it, do it.

Working little to gain much>Working hard to gain much>Working little to gain little>Working hard to gain little.

That said, I don't think it's useful to judge people based on their occupational status in this way. Figuring out what you want out of life is cool and all, but using your criteria for a satisfying life and applying it to other people's achievements/choices sounds like a means of dismissing others rather than contributing to your perspective/assisting in the decision making process.

I'd also hold back any contempt until you've achieved the status of low-effort-high-income-earner.

#### redbaron

##### irony based lifeform
There's a certain level of certainty/security that comes with a salaried position, and considering that quite a lot of academic, engineering and scientific research positions are salary-based...I have no idea why you'd consider it being for, 'dumb people'.

For people who don't really care about how much money or prestige they make, and simply want to be able to focus on the things they're interested in and good at - like all those dumb academics, engineers and scientists - a salary is actually a good thing. No worrying about managing finances, you make 'this' much money every single day/week/month and so there's no time wasted on having to manage this. Which actually makes it liberating, not a constraint.

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#### doncarlzone

##### Useless knowledge
Since most blogs and most art sucks I think the Internet people are selfish narcissists who should be turned blue collars, seriously. Just look at YouTube or deviantart or whatever. So many people so little talent, why do they want to brandish themselves when all they show is ugliness?

I guess some of them are just tarded enough not to realize that they suck.

Most of them are hardly poor misunderstood INTPs with no other place in the world. Also what's with your obvious usage of MTBI to make excuses for failure and to claim superiority both at once? Defense mechanism Ofc, but geez at least know what you are talking about. J-academia lol, yeah no that's wrong.
Well put.

#### doncarlzone

##### Useless knowledge
There's a certain level of certainty/security that comes with a salaried position, and considering that quite a lot of academic, engineering and scientific research positions are salary-based...I have no idea why you'd consider it being for, 'dumb people'.

For people who don't really care about how much money or prestige they make, and simply want to be able to focus on the things they're interested in and good at - like all those dumb academics, engineers and scientists - a salary is actually a good thing. No worrying about managing finances, you make 'this' much money every single day/week/month and so there's no time wasted on having to manage this. Which actually makes it liberating, not a constraint.
I agree, especially considering that the alternative is being somewhat of an entrepreneur which is incredibly time consuming. Knowing myself, it doesn't matter what I do, if I do it for a long enough time, I will inevitably grow tired of it anyway. The perpetual passion required for a sustainable entrepreneurial career seems incredibly foreign to me.

The more time I have for myself to pursue existing and novel interests, or just doing nothing, the better I feel. That's value, fuck prestige.

#### Brontosaurie

##### Banned
i think there is power and suffering in money and you better try to keep that out of your private space as much as possible. thus integrating work in your personal identity, as per pro blogging and - to a lesser degree - academic careers, is detrimental to core character.

this is a huge hurdle for me when trying to study.

#### Base groove

##### Banned
Some people are lucky. They're where they want to be.
The rest of the people are greedy. They're not.

#### Puffy

##### Demon Alpaca Overlord
There's a certain level of certainty/security that comes with a salaried position, and considering that quite a lot of academic, engineering and scientific research positions are salary-based...I have no idea why you'd consider it being for, 'dumb people'.

For people who don't really care about how much money or prestige they make, and simply want to be able to focus on the things they're interested in and good at - like all those dumb academics, engineers and scientists - a salary is actually a good thing. No worrying about managing finances, you make 'this' much money every single day/week/month and so there's no time wasted on having to manage this. Which actually makes it liberating, not a constraint.
If you can find a means of integrating any passions you're following with careers (or something entrepreneurial) then sure, I don't really see why it's a bad thing at all. Work takes up a large part of your life, if it can be in something you're creatively invested in that's extremely fortunate as far as the history of humanity goes.

I think it's also a matter of honestly assessing your abilities, skills and the novelty of the ideas you have. Lots of people think they can be writers, artists, critics, entertainers, who probably aren't as interesting as they'd like to think they are. That said, if the opportunity to make it full-time presents itself I see no issue in taking it.

#### pernoctator

##### a bearded robocop
I think you need to clearly define what it is dumb, because it seems like "jobs and salaries" isn't mutually exclusive with what you've given as the alternative.

Also, I'm not so sure that this idea is "quite popular on the internet", rather than that the sort of people who make their living based on blogs and youtube are also the loudest and most obnoxious in making their ideas known.

#### WALKYRIA

##### Active Member
I'm not very serious nor good at expressing my ideas... but really are you guys such indoctrinated by our society that u really think having a job is that necessary?
I just can't believe my ears.

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2006/07/10-reasons-you-should-never-get-a-job/

it's better explained than me. And if necessary I'll argue why jobs are for dummies later if you want so. I seriously-- and thought it was natural to think like that and especially here on intp forum-- believe that achieving some kind of financial independence is the main goal.
My final goal is to be some kind of: writer, artists, photographer, musician, researcher.... hmm... sorry, FULL TIME ! Life is finite, our time is finite... why spend it working for some other people if you could work for your own goals?

Working little to gain much>Working hard to gain much>Working little to gain little>Working hard to gain little.
Seriously, that's how one should measure intelligence in an objective, big picturesque way= ability to be legitimately free in a world of slaves and sheep. People who work a lot(>20 hours a week) and don't make such big money aren't as smart as they think they are. They are physically enslaved.
Some other people who think they are smart because they went to PhD, Md, engineer or scientist are in reality mentally and intellectually tied to the ground. Slaves. Tools! Real science and engineering shouldn't be tied to structural or societal obligations. Real science happens actually outside academia.
Anyways keep thinking like that, keep working people, keep giving up your time(= your life time), keep dying and reducing your time spent doing what you want(= life). IN sum, work=social and mental suicide... The more you believe in work as a necessary and inherent characteristic of individuals, the freer and the more alive we become.
The only exceptional thing that might justify hard work is the prospect of financial independence and freedom/ gain of power/ power of action.

I'm quitting, the level of hypocrisy of certain answers in here is killing mey..

Steve Pavlina:
"If you’re currently a well-conditioned, well-behaved employee, your most likely reaction to the above will be defensiveness. It’s all part of the conditioning. But consider that if the above didn’t have a grain of truth to it, you wouldn’t have an emotional reaction at all. This is only a reminder of what you already know. You can deny your cage all you want, but the cage is still there. Perhaps this all happened so gradually that you never noticed it until now… like a lobster enjoying a nice warm bath."

#### pernoctator

##### a bearded robocop
are you guys such indoctrinated by our society that u really think having a job is that necessary?
No, I'm only indoctrinated just enough to think it can be a viable option. Although again, "having a job" isn't well-defined and I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing.

I don't have time to look at that in detail now, but this looks like one of those loathsome people who make money by selling people the promise of making money. Speaking of sheep...

#### Base groove

##### Banned
Is it fair to assume that dumb people don't know they are dumb?

#### WALKYRIA

##### Active Member
Steve Pavlina is just a smart INT*... with great advices for INT*.
Having a job in like working for someone for sole purpose of money... Is fundamentally evil and goes against universal human rights.
No, I'm only indoctrinated just enough to think it can be a viable option
Sure It's a viable option.. but viability is not enough dude. If I had to choose between a good looking viable baby and a viable handicapped baby. I'll go for the healthy one. Same here. Society has evolved in a way such that it forces us to do what it wants in order to survive. Hence, modern and more malignant slavery. I prefer to force society to do what I want, Otherwise I'll do what I want myself.

LIfetime=Freetime= age -( sleeptime + worktime+ schooltime and homeworks)= 1/2 Age.

SO people, we spend more than half of our lifetime enslaved in doing something that is independent of our will(work, school, sleep) . The other helfth of our time we are free. If you think about every time we are obliged or forced to be with people, social manipulation...Etc Well you can go till 25% of real, free moments. Now Imagine if you had 80 à 90% of compensated free time? It means you'd live(virtually) and experience more than three times more than your mates...

That's the idea. Think about the will of power.

sleeptime= 25 years= 1/3 Age
worktime= 15 years= 1/5 Age
school time= between 5 and 10 years of school time= 1/8 age

#### WALKYRIA

##### Active Member
Is it fair to assume that dumb people don't know they are dumb?
That's pretty much a rule more than it is an exception .

But People are not really dumb but just used to be slaves and indoctrinated... Same as religion actually. It started very early, before they get to see the whole big pictures. Dummiezation is a slow but effective process.(whether it's about religion, work or any kinda indoctrination)

#### Cherry Cola

##### Banned
Jippie a self help author -.-

Now Steve Pavlina sucks, but say he was right though and getting your own business to run profitably was as easy as he says it is and not at all a gamble, then even so one wonders what would happen with the world should all reasonably smart people suddenly become self-employed as they would if it was as easy as he said it is? It would go to hell that's what it would, what he wants to and says can happen; the very idea he's selling is a doomsday scenario that would cause an instant economic collapse.

Here are some reasons why Steve Pavlina is a pretty dubious figure intellectually speaking:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Steve_Pavlina

And here's why his site sucks, he's basically a con-man operating within legal boundaries, and his self help is self-mutilation:

http://personaldevelopmentdummies.blogspot.se/2009/01/personal-development-for-dummies.html

Srsly Walkyria, that page has like 20 twenty warning signs that spell out bullshit which pop out the moment you enter it. Steve friggin Pavlina is the indoctrinator. Don't believe the indoctrinator then you're indoctrinated!

And he's not an INTx and his advice isn't aimed at at INTx types specifically either.

#### redbaron

##### irony based lifeform
You want to be a writer, photographer, musician, researcher etc, but complain that work is giving up time, and that equates to giving up your life?

Uh, newsflash - those are some of the most competitive and time consuming fields you can come across. You don't just 'become' a musician because it looks like it would be enjoyable. You do it because it's what you want to do, because you want to dedicate your entire life to the mastery of self-expression through your craft. You're actually dense if you think being any of those things you listed is freedom. They're professions you take up when you want them to be your life.

Oh and just curious, do you have a career? How old are you? Wife? Kids? Do you have to support yourself?

Solitaire has this theory about how some of these factors correlate with intelligence

#### Cherry Cola

##### Banned
As if though Steve Pavlina really did not work lol

#### pernoctator

##### a bearded robocop
Steve Pavlina is just a smart INT*...
No he isn't.

Having a job in like working for someone for sole purpose of money...
So working for someone for the sole purpose of money is for dumb people? Agreed. But doesn't your solution also involve setting up a system for the sole purpose of money? "finding a way to generate automatically money(with a blog for example or a product)". If this isn't something you do because you want to, you still have the same problem. In fact, you've compounded the dependence on society, because now you are directly responsible for pleasing your audience / clients as opposed to just a boss.

#### Cherry Cola

##### Banned
but dont you see...? once the business is started it will run automatically and never go bankrupt and you wont ever have to work ever again because Steve Pavlina

#### WALKYRIA

##### Active Member
You guys are funy pathetic, u mad, why? Is it because you are wasting your time and your life at a time consuming /low paying job?
Please no personal attacks and don't take it personally. Although I'm an INTP and that I have very few certitudes in life ; I deeply believe that working/having a job is a waste of time an is antithetical to human development UNLESS your job is your passion of course; and that your passion is a real passion not an ersatz of passion.
passion: something you could do for free even if it wasnt trendy.( Imagine that engineer was unpopular; would you still choose it. And what if being a professional farter was trendy, would you suddenly become passionate? )

Being a scientist is really not that great in our society and era btw. Being an engineer is boring to hell. I know you might not be able to perceive this now-- in the same way that everybody was religious few century ago-- because we just follow trends and listen to family and have egos. We are humans, But really...detach yourself from constraints and live a life as free as an electron coz that's the purpose of life. Freedom of expression, freedom of being and freedom of action.

You want to be a writer, photographer, musician, researcher etc, but complain that work is giving up time, and that equates to giving up your life?
Orite but why do you feel the need to misunderstand me. I said waste of time only if it's an obligation or a forced job. If your job is a passion( acting, photography,music) than your job increases your life time. For example, There are many ways and many kind of music and musician same as there are many types of scientist. It's not always easy to be the kind of musician you desire to be(because of time or physical limitations) . But if you have time and power of action you can....

#### redbaron

##### irony based lifeform
No one here is mad. The whole conditioning/brainwashing thing is nothing new. You're taking Pavlina's comments and turning them into a sweeping generalization that jobs are for dumb people, and blatantly overlooking obvious flaws.

Generalizing is for dumb people.

#### Architect

##### Professional INTP
Having all passive income is great, but by the Fallacy of Composition not everybody can do it, in fact only a small portion of the population can. The rest necessarily producing and creating the goods and services for general consumption. There is a world wide baby boom generation (in Asia, Europe and the U.S.) which is aging rapidly, this is some cause for concern as the overweighted older generations requiring younger generations to support them.

Intelligent machines offer a nice way out, with the "Star Trek" economy tantalizingly exploring the idea of a moneyless economy. Of course what happens in that fictional world with free replicated food and goods? The goal of most people then is to better themselves and find meaningful work. Which leads around to the main point; it's not passive income, active income, working a job or working for yourself, one of the main goals for all of us is to find and create meaningful work.

#### Base groove

##### Banned
one of the main goals for all of us is to find and create meaningful work.
Exactly right, but

My read on this thread is that W. hasn't reached that stage of ego development yet. Call it an Ad hom if you want. He's looking for a purely logical reason for work to be virtuous and so far nobody's given him one,

Until^

#### Cherry Cola

##### Banned
I dont think Walkyria is an INTP, this is like Chad all over

#### WALKYRIA

##### Active Member
I kinda agree with architect. To want passive income is a rather egoist and narcissistic/nihilism derived desire. so what? is it really that bad?
Dayum, ignored INTPs had such a high morals and values.

A meaningful work= a passion in a certain way.
But again, I intuite that Work is a complicated philosophical question. I mean, it's an invented concept. It started out first with slavery; then it evolved into paid slaves= modern slavery.

Groove basement : I don't have an ego, or not so much. so no need to develop the monster !

I dont think Walkyria is an INTP, this is like Chad all over
why not? Well I'm just the more rebellious and crazy one.( on the internet thougbh, real life am an angel lol ).
Sorry But I just have a gusto for chaos.
Who was CHad btw ? what mbti was he?

#### Architect

##### Professional INTP
I kinda agree with architect. To want passive income is a rather egoist and narcissistic/nihilism derived desire.
It often is overly narcissistic, but I don't see anything wrong with it in general. I want passive income, most of us do, it's called retirement. A well deserved break after a lifetime of work. Which is my point, I think finding fulfilling work is one of the greatest challenges, and if you're one of those people who can retire early, what have you got? The same problem.

#### Polaris

Tangential thought...

People have always had to work for survival.

Before the arrival of modern currency as a substitute for hours of running around desperately hunting, farming and gathering in order to eek out just enough for family rations for the next couple of days, people were still getting stressed and anxious over the struggle for existence.

The modern idea of doing meaningful and fulfilling work is a by-product of freed up time as a result of these currency-based societies.

In short; people are getting bored because existence has become a norm, not an exception.

We have created the word 'meaning'.

-And so we laugh at these people who have "meaningless" existences.

How arrogant.

#### Architect

##### Professional INTP
Before the arrival of modern currency as a substitute for hours of running around desperately hunting, farming and gathering in order to eek out just enough for family rations for the next couple of days, people were still getting stressed and anxious over the struggle for existence.
It's not currency, though that is a tool for the economy, but technology that has freed us up from a "short, brutish life". A good book to study on this subject is The Birth of Plenty: How the Prosperity of the Modern World was Created: William Bernstein: 9780071747042: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51sx-NWvPiL.@@AMEPARAM@@51sx-NWvPiLby Bernstein. He's an interesting fellow for this discussion too. Previously he was a brain surgeon, but made a lot of money on the stock market and became an investor, which I consider one of the most useless professions. Waste of a life? Maybe, but he seems to like it.

The modern idea of doing meaningful and fulfilling work is a by-product of freed up time as a result of these currency-based societies.
Technology based societies.

In short; people are getting bored because existence has become a norm, not an exception. We have created the word 'meaning'.
Sure, that's the wonderful thing about technology; it gives us a choice. I know some people who make a living as artisan farmers, and many others who happily work hard at their gardens or back yards. It can be fun when we don't have to do it.

#### Polaris

^ Yes, thank you (I haven't had caffeine yet).

#### Analyzer

##### Hide thy life
Jobs and a salary are just means to an end. You choose to have a job and salary for some particular reason(save or consume). If you do not want to do a job then nobody is forcing you to keep it. Whenever I hear people talk about wage slaves or associated terms its pretty annoying. It basically implies you volunteer yourself to be a slave. So you choose to not be free, that is pretty dumb if you ask me.

In a sense your right. Jobs and salary are for dumb people who make the decision that they don't want it or don't want to depend on it, but believe it should be part of their life anyways due to a variety of factors. If you were smart and made that decision, you wouldn't rely on a job or salary.

Thanks to the Internet the prospect of passive income or being self employed is not bounded by any geographical lines any longer. With this decentralized network, its sort of like back to the old America of the Gilded age where it was possible to establish an income stream without many gatekeepers. Having some technological knowledge and creativity is definitely an advantage if this is your goal.

#### Pyropyro

##### Magos Biologis
Since most blogs and most art sucks I think the Internet people are selfish narcissists who should be turned blue collars, seriously. Just look at YouTube or deviantart or whatever. So many people so little talent, why do they want to brandish themselves when all they show is ugliness?

I guess some of them are just tarded enough not to realize that they suck.
I believe they're in for a rude awakening once their parents' support runs dry.

#### Minuend

##### pat pat
That said, I don't think it's useful to judge people based on their occupational status in this way. Figuring out what you want out of life is cool and all, but using your criteria for a satisfying life and applying it to other people's achievements/choices sounds like a means of dismissing others rather than contributing to your perspective/assisting in the decision making process.
Yes.

Some people value hard work and get a sense of pride and accomplishment from it. Some people like working. In addition to evolving on a personal level, you also get a social network. And even when you are forced to be around people you can't stand, you get the chance to learn how to deal with them and your own perception and feelings toward them.
I read an article about a man with 180+ IQ who worked with car stereos, it's not just "dumb" people who can find something meaningful in normal work. I would say the more intelligent, the more flexible your values and what you can find to learn in various work situations. If you are intelligent, it's more easy to find ways to enjoy what would initially seem boring.

So working for someone for the sole purpose of money is for dumb people? Agreed.
Why?

I would say it's more often an issue of survival, rather than intelligence. You need an income to live, and in some cases a person does not have the resources (illness, poverty) where he is able to pursue the work he would ideally want. Nor is it so simple, as others in the thread think, to generate automatic income from blogs or similars. There is a lot of competition out there. Being smart isn't always enough to make it through.

(Fair point the rest of the post)

#### Blarraun

##### straightedgy
Having all passive income is great, but by the Fallacy of Composition not everybody can do it, in fact only a small portion of the population can. The rest necessarily producing and creating the goods and services for general consumption. There is a world wide baby boom generation (in Asia, Europe and the U.S.) which is aging rapidly, this is some cause for concern as the overweighted older generations requiring younger generations to support them.

Intelligent machines offer a nice way out, with the "Star Trek" economy tantalizingly exploring the idea of a moneyless economy. Of course what happens in that fictional world with free replicated food and goods? The goal of most people then is to better themselves and find meaningful work. Which leads around to the main point; it's not passive income, active income, working a job or working for yourself, one of the main goals for all of us is to find and create meaningful work.
Having passive income etc., makes you partially live in a moneyless system.
The model where you get something simply when you need it.
one of the main goals for all of us is to find and create meaningful work.
Finding something that is meaningful to you is great and one of the most important things to find your place in general. Doing something because it is important and valuable, as opposed to doing something to survive and become valuable.

#### sushi

##### Well-Known Member
there is no such thing as passive income other than rent and interest, this makes you a leech like the rest of the capitalist class. (passive income is a myth because money does not transfer from one hand to another for nothing) But then again, business need credit money and people need homes to live when they can't buy one.

#### EditorOne

##### Prolific Member
"There's a certain level of certainty/security that comes with a salaried position"

That's not a really reliable assertion. Anyone paid a "salary", ie, a fixed weekly amount that usually involves a specialized skillset or some management element, is subject to the changes that come with new owners of the company, new bosses, new stockholder demands for profits, etc. Even with legal protections against "illegal" dismissals, a reduction in force can make a manager's position redundant and centralizing specialized work at a distant location can put a skilled individual out on the street.

Additionally, there are a lot of people out there who can tell you that "salaried" means "have to work overtime but don't get paid for it."

I'm not saying running your own business is a sure thing or without problems, I'm simply pointing out that an assumption of certainty/security linked with salary comes with some pretty significant asterisks.

If I had it to do over again I'd try my own business. I had one of my employers suggest a perfectly reasonable service business when I was young, but I was too uptight, rebellious, full of myself and generally boneheaded to see it.

#### sushi

##### Well-Known Member
good thing having a salary is that you don't have to deal with profit and loss, only unexpected firing and laid off, and still you can transfer your skills and knowledge to another company.

bad thing about owning a business is that you can get into deep debt and end up in bankruptcy, and have your assets liquidated.

#### Blarraun

##### straightedgy
there is no such thing as passive income other than rent and interest, this makes you a leech like the rest of the capitalist class. (passive income is a myth because money does not transfer from one hand to another for nothing) But then again, business need credit money and people need homes to live when they can't buy one.
Well, what if you make your own business? Let's say that you initially worked hard for it to develop and now you gather your profits? How's that different?
good thing having a salary is that you don't have to deal with profit and loss, only unexpected firing and laid off, and still you can transfer your skills and knowledge to another company.
Without helping it you could mind it. If your company is active on the market, then every major loss it sustains may even make the management to cut your salary etc.

Depending on the quality control and model you may have your tasks more or less custom and priced adequately or not.
bad thing about owning a business is that you can get into deep debt and end up in bankruptcy, and have your assets liquidated.
Depends on the size. If you don't make it big, it usually stays small and controllable.

#### redbaron

##### irony based lifeform
I'm simply pointing out that an assumption of certainty/security linked with salary comes with some pretty significant asterisks.
Yeah, just like any other job that isn't predicated upon high-demand skills. Hence, 'certain level'.

The security is also to do with the regularity of a paycheck, and granted pay is different here in Australia. Minimum wage for an adult 21+ years is $17.40 from memory, so any salary where I live generally equates to about$18+/hour - which is decent money for a starting job with a short training component. I suppose it's different in other countries.

Also when I say security I'm referring in comparison to say, a musician, writer et al. The kinds of jobs Walkyria thinks are, "superior". Believe me, compared to being a musician, a salaried position is much more secure income even with the threat of redundancy and such similar issues. If you're stuck on hard times or have a family to raise, I'd say that the, "smart" person in this case would take a salary over a casual position or trying to become a well-paid musician.

#### Architect

##### Professional INTP
good thing having a salary is that you don't have to deal with profit and loss, only unexpected firing and laid off, and still you can transfer your skills and knowledge to another company.

bad thing about owning a business is that you can get into deep debt and end up in bankruptcy, and have your assets liquidated.

Also a lot more worries, late nights and heartache. Employees can usually take off the responsibilities with the badge.

#### EditorOne

##### Prolific Member
Different problems and worries for entrepreneurs and wage slaves. It kind of boils down to "which problems and worries would you prefer to deal with?"

#### Architect

##### Professional INTP
Different problems and worries for entrepreneurs and wage slaves. It kind of boils down to "which problems and worries would you prefer to deal with?"
Surely, but they're not equivalent. The worries for the entrepreneur are greater, as are the potential rewards.

#### Ex-User (5841)

##### Banned
An excellent read though slightly outdated, U.S.-centric, and not comprehensive (excludes adverse possession law and many entrepreneurial type things, for example).

#### Brontosaurie

##### Banned
Surely, but they're not equivalent. The worries for the entrepreneur are greater, as are the potential rewards.
doesn't that kinda even it out...................................................................

but good you posted something clever sounding

#### Amagi82

##### Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!
Intelligent machines offer a nice way out, with the "Star Trek" economy tantalizingly exploring the idea of a moneyless economy. Of course what happens in that fictional world with free replicated food and goods? The goal of most people then is to better themselves and find meaningful work. Which leads around to the main point; it's not passive income, active income, working a job or working for yourself, one of the main goals for all of us is to find and create meaningful work.
^ This.

Reading through this thread, I was beginning to think nobody had seen through the fog of current ideology. I'm glad Architect displayed otherwise. What we should each want, dumb or smart alike, is occupations that allow us to express our collaborative creativity and skills in the most effective and intellectually satisfying way. Worrying about traditional jobs or income, at any level, is nothing but a massive drain upon our ultimate potential. I don't care how much "stuff" I have- I care about leaving the world better than I found it.

#### pernoctator

##### a bearded robocop
Reading through this thread, I was beginning to think nobody had seen through the fog of current ideology.
Really? Did you miss these and other similar comments:

people... want to be able to focus on the things they're interested in and good at
if it can be in something you're creatively invested in that's extremely fortunate as far as the history of humanity goes
I think you're being overly pessimistic to think that valuing meaningfulness over income is so rare. The problem I have with OP isn't that he's saying we should reject that ideology; it's that he's baselessly discounting having a salary/boss as an equally valid way of doing so as not having one.

#### Reluctantly

##### Resident disMember
I consider it like gambling. Except we're not playing with something extra, but our rights and needs and wants. And unfortunately, gambling requires a certain amount of uncertainty, which means you could be the smartest player and still come out as a loser. And unfortunately, for someone to win, many will have to lose. I guess you could argue that the dumb people are the ones then that play to begin with; but how many people can successfully get out of the game? Most of us don't seem to have that luxury or quite know how.

A money-less Star-Trek scenario sounds nice though. But everyone is right about it creating new problems, where people who found meaning in their previous struggles now need to find a way to fill that lost meaning. So I'd argue that all meaning carries with it some form of struggle, because otherwise we would be bored. In a way, how we interpret and deal with our tribulations defines us into what we really are; it seems rather important then in regards to giving meaning to one's life and maybe then, one way to be smart is to embrace the struggles, rather than worry about winning.

#### sushi

##### Well-Known Member
I consider it like gambling. Except we're not playing with something extra, but our rights and needs and wants. And unfortunately, gambling requires a certain amount of uncertainty, which means you could be the smartest player and still come out as a loser. And unfortunately, for someone to win, many will have to lose. I guess you could argue that the dumb people are the ones then that play to begin with; but how many people can successfully get out of the game? Most of us don't seem to have that luxury or quite know how.

A money-less Star-Trek scenario sounds nice though. But everyone is right about it creating new problems, where people who found meaning in their previous struggles now need to find a way to fill that lost meaning. So I'd argue that all meaning carries with it some form of struggle, because otherwise we would be bored. In a way, how we interpret and deal with our tribulations defines us into what we really are; it seems rather important then in regards to giving meaning to one's life and maybe then, one way to be smart is to embrace the struggles, rather than worry about winning.
bankers always win in the gamble (if they fucked up they can always ask for a bailout), and whoever controls food fuel water, electricity always don't have to worry about a businss downturn. Its always a debt game.