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LGBTQ+ Sensitivity, Control, Identity

Rebis

Blessed are the hearts that can bend
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Pretty simple: I have a lot of friends that fit within that big old acronym, I get along with them just fine. However, the nastiest people I've ever met have also used this acronym to rip into people, to persecute others and to take an act of moral high ground.

Currently thinking of this guy who admined my friend's fb page, removed me from the page so I didn't get notifications (I had liked them prior), which my friend who ran the band mentioned his recent shows (which I didn't know of due to this.) He's removed me on facebook then added me and I can't help but think he's doing everything for a reason to make it seem like I'm the one constantly adding/removing him. I had met this girl I was interested in being friends with, we had been liking each other's stuff non-stop etc and then that suddenly stopped once he added me, quite abruptly. This guy is on a course of control. I think he holds onto the LGBTQ+ moniker because he knows they're a small group that can be controlled, it's fucked up really.

Then in general a few are very very sensitive, I was talking to a girl that was genderfluid last year, it seemed we were getting along quite well. Talked for hours thought we'd be really comfortable. Yet when she knew I had a friend that was vaguely related to her, she told me I shouldn't have told her that I was friends with him, blanked me after I hopped on the train, messaged her a few times to no response. Didn't remove me on facebook so that's cool I guess.

Anyways, I do feel like it's an elite club. In the group in the first paragraph it seemed no one was interested in me unless I had some quirk: Was I gay, Bicurious, whatever etc. As soon as I mentioned an interaction with a guy (implying I was bicurious or something), they jumped on it like wow, I have claimed my royalty. We are all subjects of the queen, you have shown your heritage.

I'll give the note that my age range probably has something to do with it. Still though, it gets extreme. Too much echo chambers. It's not like I approach these people to antagonize them, but my existence seems to antagonize them if I'm not genderfluid, bi, gay, oppressed etc. I just feel like my efforts are just slapped in my face: I like them because they're interesting in the sense it's uncommon over here, and it emphasizes some importance of individuality but to me I see some of these groups as a gentleman's club.

What are your thoughts? Has this happened to others? Do you share the same frustration?
 

Rebis

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It could be that the cultural gene is present in any group, no matter the ideology that surfaced it (Expressionism, Identity, unnecessary gender roles).
 

dair

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Eh, you sound pretty entitled tbh. Why do they owe you anything just because you find them interesting? You're like a kid with his nose pressed up to the glass of an animal exhibit. They're not on display for your entertainment or to indulge your curiosity.

LGBTQ people run the gamut just like regular people. Some are saints, some are shit and most are in between. Painting them with a broad brush is foolish and insulting. I mean I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe this person is an utter twat, idk. I don't even frequent such spaces and don't have a decent idea of what they're like, but yeah man.... you come off as such a tourist.

Anyways, I do feel like it's an elite club. In the group in the first paragraph it seemed no one was interested in me unless I had some quirk: Was I gay, Bicurious, whatever etc. As soon as I mentioned an interaction with a guy (implying I was bicurious or something), they jumped on it like wow, I have claimed my royalty. We are all subjects of the queen, you have shown your heritage.
It's an lgbtq space right? Is it that odd to expect other lgbtqs? Especially when you don't clearly identify as straight/ally/indecisive. It's a very natural assumption. If I go to Switzerland, I'm going to expect most people to be Swiss, even though it won't always be the case. It's certainly not an 'elite club,' how patronizing. Maybe just accept that some spaces aren't for you? It's great know and appreciate diverse groups of people, but that doesn't mean you can crash their spaces, make demands of their time, and expect them to be welcoming to you.

They are correct to be defensive, when in all likelihood they are far outnumbered by straight tourists, fetishists, or people who specifically mean them harm. The whole reason lgbtq spaces tend to have a culture of over-the-top support and flamboyancy and 'pride' is specifically to counteract the dark day to day reality. Your family might disown you, your religious boss might fire you if you let anything slip to the wrong person, people make a sport out of disrespecting you. Grouping together and shouting 'yas queen' at eachother is a survival strategy, not something to be envious.
 

redbaron

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Too much echo chambers. It's not like I approach these people to antagonize them, but my existence seems to antagonize them if I'm not genderfluid, bi, gay, oppressed etc. I just feel like my efforts are just slapped in my face: I like them because they're interesting in the sense it's uncommon over here, and it emphasizes some importance of individuality but to me I see some of these groups as a gentleman's club.
if i detected this kind of attitude or perspective, i wouldn't want to interact with you either
 

peoplesuck

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People who feel the need to identify with groups, typically are dumbasses.
from my experience, of watching people experience things.
avoid feminists, avoid the lgbtqrstuv, avoid anyone that feels the need to make a group their identity. Im not sure how to explain it, but they seem to be the craziest. Sure, there are normal gay people that identify as lgbt, but that banner, is just psychotic children, in my mind, and you cant fucking change that, because its the majority of what I have seen. People avoid people like me, because we seem a bit serial-killer-y, thats fine, I dont fucking need your highfives, lets all agree to fuck off.

we are adults, so stop acting like its sane, or understandable, or realistic, to send a person to jail, for misgendering you. remember in grade school, when calling a boy a girl, was a joke, yeah well now its a fucking crime.

A sane person doesnt want to be associated with a group of fucking nuts. ErGo..do the math.
images (29).jpeg
Once you realize some people are just fucking intolerable, you can stop wasting your time on them, and enjoy the people who are tolerable.
I have always wanted to meet a trans person and talk to them, however, I talked to one millennial that had a trans friend, and that was rly quite enough of that for me.

you can call me a transphobe, but I dont feel the need to tell people my sexuality, or feel the need for special treatment. Im actually nonbinary ( or I think I am ) and I would not ever consider this a fucking conversation topic.
People I know would look at my like a fucking criminal if they knew I dont believe in god, do I feel the need to join some stupid fucking group and scream at people about it? no, no because im not 6 years old.

Im all for young children having support, and these people do have struggles other people wouldnt understand, however at some point you grow up and deal with it.
In other words, if you need this flag, you are probably not the type of person I would like, simply for the fact that I despise groupthink, or really groups in general.
You know, maybe I support lgbtq, I will just support them from a distance, and never talk to them.
Obviously I want to say man the fuck up, I had nobody to care for me, so you can deal with it too. Unfortunately, that is shit logic, and I wish I had help when I was struggling....so...yeah..im pro lgbtq

a person interested in such a group, is probably quite insecure, in literally every way a person can be insecure and unsure. I dont think that means they should be looked down on ( as far as value as a human), but I also dont think this type of group should be long term, it should be short term group therapy. thats as close as you will get to me supporting any sort of group, fuck you.
tbh I may have joined the lgbtq thing, if I were born now, and if I werent brutally killed for joining
JV1Qph6ppB1MY5fyPHR4t6haAO_PR_x2JQQWPO5w9AE.jpg
this was sort of stream of consciousness ranting
I swear I dont do drugs.
tbh I never really think about this, because I really dont care for 99% of people, I just take care to avoid the ones that seem more sensitive and psychotic.
You can hate me for it, but im essentially the type of person who would have joined the group, so imo its coming from a perspective of a person who relates.
perhaps if I were taught to open up, and trust people, I would join a group, but I see it as weakness, and even if it means pain, I avoid it.

So I despise people for getting help, because I was hurt, and dont trust people enough to be able to ask for help. My dad would have literally beaten me to death, if I came out as gay. (if we are going to play the helpless victim game of chess, checkmate, faggots)
 

Cognisant

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People who feel the need to identify with groups, typically are dumbasses.
Indeed identity politics is really a thing unto itself and it's not unique to the LGBT+ community by any means, like those people who find out they're 2% Scandinavia and decide they identity with their "viking heritage".
 

EndogenousRebel

We're all trying our best. Aren't we?
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As a dumb ass myself, I am offended by this comparison.

I don't know I don't see a problem with it at all. At least, not inherently. People are tribal af, and these issues would be apparent in any tribe/faction. People and will gravitate towards people of the same "creed". They like feeling a part of their unique and special groups and they will discriminate where they will, just as many would and in all honesty have discriminated again'st them. Maybe they are afraid they will catch straight from you?

I have only locally been around one lgtb group and they did seem cool and quirky, really deviants for the sake of it, (really internalizing what society has labeled them?)

I don't know, people are people, and people have big mouths and stupid sentences that come out of them, they only needed a reason to exclude you and if among themselves one of them had an issue with you court is settled. Fuck'em, who knows later they might come around.
 

Minuend

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This kinda seems like a type of self defense mechanism? You feel rejected, feel bad and now you're stereotyping the group as faulty in various ways. Putting the blame and problem on them so you don't have to feel it's you. Which is understandable, being rejected when you're trying to communicate feel pretty shitty.

It's difficult to tell what really happened in that group from that info. It could even be something as crazy as this one guy talking about you behind your back and turning your friend against you. Or it could be your fb profile that makes you seem like someone suspect. Or there was something about your attitude that put people off. Etc

If you're a person who's used to being harshly judged and bullied for who you are, you probably become more sympathetic to others with the same story and more skeptical of those not, which tend to lend itself to bias. You become skeptical of people's motivations for wanting to join your group.

the nastiest people I've ever met have also used this acronym to rip into people, to persecute others and to take an act of moral high ground.
These types exists in most groups of various kinds. They are a type of parasite that uses groups of vulnerable people to manipulate and dominate. Playing the victim card when opposed, while getting close and comfy with their subjects.

You'll probably find people who typed INTP justifying their misanthropy and superiority because INTPness. Be wary of thinking these types of people in group are representatives or even common. They are often the loudest, but rarely the majority.

People who feel the need to identify with groups, typically are dumbasses.
from my experience, of watching people experience things.
Dude, we all ended up here because of some shitty 40 question test of "do you like parties or do you read books", I don't think we can claim the high ground here.
 

Rebis

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Eh, you sound pretty entitled tbh. Why do they owe you anything just because you find them interesting? You're like a kid with his nose pressed up to the glass of an animal exhibit. They're not on display for your entertainment or to indulge your curiosity.

LGBTQ people run the gamut just like regular people. Some are saints, some are shit and most are in between. Painting them with a broad brush is foolish and insulting. I mean I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe this person is an utter twat, idk. I don't even frequent such spaces and don't have a decent idea of what they're like, but yeah man.... you come off as such a tourist.
No entitlement here other than maybe gender/sexual orientation shouldn't be a centralised point. I'm not staring at then through a glass cage, in fact the argument stipulating that they are looking for reflection of themselves in others but only features like gender/sexual orientation is annoying. In the situation I described above they were the ones looking at me as if I was an animal they can recruit into their pack. I could share personality traits with them as far as the eye can see and yet some people will not include you. It is turning exclusive by the very nature they exclude others based on a simple characteristic.

No matter what you say this is how it appears to many. Many get to sit on a moral high ground for behaving a certain way even though they aren't by nature principled.

If this is a cultural trend it should go through 4 stages:
-Radicalism
-Propagation
-Social Discourse
-Normalisation

You could argue which stage it's at based on your country, over here I'd say it's approaching normalisation. The reality is every culture in this society is integrated into a larger subset like a nationalistic culture, a continent or a part of the west. As I've said above I see the necessity for preserving the cultural gene but the beliefs have been spread all across the world. If they keep a separatist mentality for long enough they won't be integrated into society.

I come off as a tourist? What are you even talking about?

It's an lgbtq space right? Is it that odd to expect other lgbtqs? Especially when you don't clearly identify as straight/ally/indecisive. It's a very natural assumption. If I go to Switzerland, I'm going to expect most people to be Swiss, even though it won't always be the case. It's certainly not an 'elite club,' how patronizing. Maybe just accept that some spaces aren't for you? It's great know and appreciate diverse groups of people, but that doesn't mean you can crash their spaces, make demands of their time, and expect them to be welcoming to you.

They are correct to be defensive, when in all likelihood they are far outnumbered by straight tourists, fetishists, or people who specifically mean them harm. The whole reason lgbtq spaces tend to have a culture of over-the-top support and flamboyancy and 'pride' is specifically to counteract the dark day to day reality. Your family might disown you, your religious boss might fire you if you let anything slip to the wrong person, people make a sport out of disrespecting you. Grouping together and shouting 'yas queen' at eachother is a survival strategy, not something to be envious.
It's not an lgbtq space, it was a LGBTQ Couples house. If your argument was under the pretence I invaded their area instead of them inviting me of their own volition then you can skip the next paragraph(s). Otherwise, It seems you've parsed through everything and just decided 1) I'm ignorant (Because it's easier to denounce someone) 2) I'm in the wrong 3) I'm generalising. This is not the case, quotations below:

Pretty simple: I have a lot of friends that fit within that big old acronym, I get along with them just fine. However, the nastiest people I've ever met have also used this acronym to rip into people, to persecute others and to take an act of moral high ground.
our family might disown you, your religious boss might fire you if you let anything slip to the wrong person, people make a sport out of disrespecting you. Grouping together and shouting 'yas queen' at eachother is a survival strategy, not something to be envious.
I went 2 times, still been invited to recent outings but haven't went mainly because I feel uncomfortable as I described above. As for being defensive? Well it's not justifiable for all encompassing exclusion. I'm not trying to harm them, they know this. Am I bundled under a group of people that's going to persecute them because of some loose association like being a cis-male because some fuck-nut bullied them?
If they act on the defense there'll be no cultural integration. Disclaimer: Clearly the country and social acceptance matters.

'Yas queen' is dead, most that say 'Yas queen' are strictly gay, in a friend group with 1/2 gay friends and/or they're at gay clubs. Not sure it's up for wide adoption.
 

Rebis

Blessed are the hearts that can bend
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Too much echo chambers. It's not like I approach these people to antagonize them, but my existence seems to antagonize them if I'm not genderfluid, bi, gay, oppressed etc. I just feel like my efforts are just slapped in my face: I like them because they're interesting in the sense it's uncommon over here, and it emphasizes some importance of individuality but to me I see some of these groups as a gentleman's club.
if i detected this kind of attitude or perspective, i wouldn't want to interact with you either
Why do you bother responding, irony being?
 

Rebis

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As a dumb ass myself, I am offended by this comparison.

I don't know I don't see a problem with it at all. At least, not inherently. People are tribal af, and these issues would be apparent in any tribe/faction. People and will gravitate towards people of the same "creed". They like feeling a part of their unique and special groups and they will discriminate where they will, just as many would and in all honesty have discriminated again'st them. Maybe they are afraid they will catch straight from you?

I have only locally been around one lgtb group and they did seem cool and quirky, really deviants for the sake of it, (really internalizing what society has labeled them?)

I don't know, people are people, and people have big mouths and stupid sentences that come out of them, they only needed a reason to exclude you and if among themselves one of them had an issue with you court is settled. Fuck'em, who knows later they might come around.
I know it's tribalism, that is the worry. Why? Because gender/sexual orientation is probably one of the more reducible qualities to a person: Think about how much people are attracted to people of the same sex, think how much people relate to the behaviours of the opposite gender (Either XXY chromosome for body dysmorphia or just sociological gender) and somewhere inbetween. The simple fact is this is a large sub-set of people.

I mean think about the whole non-binary movement: You see the polarity of male/female, feel you can't fit into one or the other completely due to your preconceived notions of gender. Anyone that is confused with their identity as a guy or a girl will naturally gravitate towards defining their own gender. Given that gender roles are far less significant than they were even 30 years ago it's becoming incredibly easy to transition between the two in terms of behaviour and I don't see it stopping. So we're in this period where we rely on a binary format to identity behavioural clusters relating to gender, yet paradoxically we've ignored these to such a degree that anyone can pretty much pick up behaviours in both categories which will make them feel confused.

Most of them are cool and quirky, this is secondary characteristics from a counter-culture movement. I'm not exoticizing them, I'm interested in their secondary characteristics, mainly; creativity from opposing social structures, individuality and open-mindedness. I don't care what they define in to they extent it influences my curiosity in them, not that I wouldn't care for their well-being if we became friends.
I was friends with punks for a few years due to a natural inclination to not care about societal rules. Do you still have punks in the US? Mohawks, Docs, Harrington jackets, DIY clothing?
 

Rebis

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This kinda seems like a type of self defense mechanism? You feel rejected, feel bad and now you're stereotyping the group as faulty in various ways. Putting the blame and problem on them so you don't have to feel it's you. Which is understandable, being rejected when you're trying to communicate feel pretty shitty.
As far as I can tell, I wasn't stereotyping. What am I to blame for what I'm supposedly blaming them for?

It's difficult to tell what really happened in that group from that info. It could even be something as crazy as this one guy talking about you behind your back and turning your friend against you. Or it could be your fb profile that makes you seem like someone suspect. Or there was something about your attitude that put people off. Etc

If you're a person who's used to being harshly judged and bullied for who you are, you probably become more sympathetic to others with the same story and more skeptical of those not, which tend to lend itself to bias. You become skeptical of people's motivations for wanting to join your group.
Yeah, I didn't really explain the situation well. I guess I wanted to establish if the behaviour was general (as in independent of my isolated context.) I should probably mention while I may have a proactive approach with becoming friends with certain groups this wasn't the case with the people I mentioned above. They invited me to a few parties and still invite me, though I felt uncomfortable + I got mixed signals, the guy had removed me and their partner had invited me. I think this person is particularly evil and deceptive, that's a heavy statement I don't like to make but there's not more I can say. I'll keep the sugar-coating off.

the nastiest people I've ever met have also used this acronym to rip into people, to persecute others and to take an act of moral high ground.
These types exists in most groups of various kinds. They are a type of parasite that uses groups of vulnerable people to manipulate and dominate. Playing the victim card when opposed, while getting close and comfy with their subjects.

You'll probably find people who typed INTP justifying their misanthropy and superiority because INTPness. Be wary of thinking these types of people in group are representatives or even common. They are often the loudest, but rarely the majority.
This is a big worry precisely due to the size of the group. Homosexual and bisexual is a significant portion of the population, combined with people that don't feel they're concretly a guy/girl, either due to behaviours or body dysphoria. It's a big group of people, to which it's easy to identify with. I'd say it's easy to manipulate too. Narratives are very easy to formulate from an oppressed/victim viewpoint. The most severe of sob stories by an evil, conniving psychopath is all it takes to completely brainwash empaths. All it takes is a person to cry the loudest.

Very true. The extremes of any grouping represent the average unfortunately.

People who feel the need to identify with groups, typically are dumbasses.
from my experience, of watching people experience things.
Dude, we all ended up here because of some shitty 40 question test of "do you like parties or do you read books", I don't think we can claim the high ground here.
#Busted. You seem mentally sharp today with your response. You got a piercing knife right at the jugular.

I'm not concerned with the INTP identity anymore, though we all have an initial interest when we discover a revelation. I think we're all past this in a way, at least I hope so.
 

redbaron

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Too much echo chambers. It's not like I approach these people to antagonize them, but my existence seems to antagonize them if I'm not genderfluid, bi, gay, oppressed etc. I just feel like my efforts are just slapped in my face: I like them because they're interesting in the sense it's uncommon over here, and it emphasizes some importance of individuality but to me I see some of these groups as a gentleman's club.
if i detected this kind of attitude or perspective, i wouldn't want to interact with you either
Why do you bother responding, irony being?
because that kind of perspective/mentality is the kind that makes lgbtq probably not want to interact with you in their communities in the first place

you find them interesting because they're "uncommon", and think therefore they should feel like interacting with you? what if they just don't find you interesting and don't feel like interacting with you? you write this as if simply approaching lgbtq people without intent to antagonise them is some kind of achievement, and that you being interested in them somehow warrants them giving you the same effort in return. it really doesn't

if someone not lgbtq who doesn't identify as part of the community wants to discuss and be in lgbtq spaces, my immediate interpretation would be that they're probably there with an axe to grind over something, are a chaser or will want to talk about some topic that most lgbtq people have probably heard enough of for a lifetime.

like almost anyone, most lgbtq people will have a few different social groups. included in them is likely a space where they hang out and talk to people who share their sexuality and similar life experiences as a result, and it seems like it shouldn't be all that hard to understand that some or even many wouldn't really be interested in discussing this particular aspect of their lives with cis straight people.
 

Rebis

Blessed are the hearts that can bend
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Blah, blah and more blah.
 

peoplesuck

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but I also dont think this type of group should be long term, it should be short term group therapy. thats as close as you will get to me supporting any sort of group, fuck you.
I dont blame u for not reading my rant, it was rant.
People who feel the need to identify with groups, typically are dumbasses.
from my experience, of watching people experience things.
Dude, we all ended up here because of some shitty 40 question test of "do you like parties or do you read books", I don't think we can claim the high ground here.
[/QUOTE]
Indeed, however, mbti is a bit more defined than " i like boys".
I stopped caring about mbti after about a month, and no longer care at all. I personally only keep it around for the dank memes I can relate to.
TBH i think I can at the very least, claim the mid ground here.
 

Rolling Cattle

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In canada, the government is finally looking into banning and criminalizing conversion therapy. I know online comments will be biased towards ignorant loud-mouths, but the majority in those spaces felt that the government could be dealing with more important issues. When people react with "the goverment could do better things with their time and power" it's a euphanism for how they really feel about LGBTQ.

We've come a long way, but there's still problems with our culture. In my opinion, the LGBTQ group has every right to be sensitive. It's silly when cis/hetero people say they feel 'oppressed' by the small minority.
 

crippli

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Sensitivity, Control, Identity.

Hallmark of sociaty. I would think it impossibly to get around this bump.
 

peoplesuck

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In canada, the government is finally looking into banning and criminalizing conversion therapy. I know online comments will be biased towards ignorant loud-mouths, but the majority in those spaces felt that the government could be dealing with more important issues. When people react with "the goverment could do better things with their time and power" it's a euphanism for how they really feel about LGBTQ.

We've come a long way, but there's still problems with our culture. In my opinion, the LGBTQ group has every right to be sensitive. It's silly when cis/hetero people say they feel 'oppressed' by the small minority.
slaves were never oppressed, there were always more slaves than white people, on plantations.
12.7/10 logic
images (29).jpeg
 

Rebis

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In canada, the government is finally looking into banning and criminalizing conversion therapy. I know online comments will be biased towards ignorant loud-mouths, but the majority in those spaces felt that the government could be dealing with more important issues. When people react with "the goverment could do better things with their time and power" it's a euphanism for how they really feel about LGBTQ.

We've come a long way, but there's still problems with our culture. In my opinion, the LGBTQ group has every right to be sensitive. It's silly when cis/hetero people say they feel 'oppressed' by the small minority.
Who's saying they're oppressed by a small minority? They're not minorities, they make up a sizeable chunk of the population. Their features (Gender/orientation) is of the most relate-able behaviours on the planet. Everyone's got traits to identify themselves as, Most have an attraction to a member of their species. Clearly it's going to increase since it becomes normalized which is going to make it no different from people liking breakfast A or B. It doesn't matter what you think is silly, it's exclusion. Exclusion is a state not an adjective.

You realise most forms of oppression were imposed by a minority, right? Wealth inequality, any country with royal families, Politicians, Judges, Religious leaders, corporations, business magnates. From these small minorities the masses were controlled. The biases of these minorities were socialised into the majority, which were then imposed on an exploitative group. Slaves, more slaves, thrice slaves, atheists, apostates, opposing religions, smaller countries, barbarians, intellectuals you name it.

Out of the people I talk to a fat chunk of them identify as Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transexual, Non-binary, Genderfluid, Humanists. It's not a minority for me, this is what's "hot" in youth culture. (Not implying it's a trend, but any new movement includes people hopping on the horse).

Sensitivity is wavering, that's how I see it. If a bully fucks with you you try and fight him. Fight him a few times, get stronger. Maybe you don't beat him but he doesn't pick on you because you've made a stance, What I see from a lot of people that form groups relating around LGBTQ+ Instead of embodying who they are as a person and going with it, is they don't incorporate their beliefs into who they are and just embody them. I don't necessarily tell people my sexuality, though since sexuality is so heavily discussed it's certainly more frequent than I'd like, and then gender: well, I don't tell people that either. I think non-binary is valid, gender-fluid is, so on so forth, but I think the need for validation is unhealthy in a group setting. Just embody who you are.

It just seems perpetual for a lot of people and that just seems defeatist. Constantly feeling like a victim, constantly feeling oppressed and constantly behaving if they're on the run such that they need to find a small circle in the middle of nowhere to concentrate their resources, like a rebel army. Being ostentatious worked out for the gays didn't it? I've been attracted to drag queens and gays because of their confidence. It's a big "Fuck you" to the world. To be honest, no one really knows what to respond when you say that to them. Most people do not give a fuck, the slightest force of wind applied to their elbow will cause them to budge, and I honestly think there are groups of LGBTQ+ members that aren't even willing to assert themselves. They sit in an echo chamber of frailty.
 

Rebis

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Everyone can have their own say but I think the way yous are imposing yourselves on this argument like I know nothing and I'm some ignorant guy that can't understand (Don't even say I can't understand the feeling like I haven't questioned my existence) is ridiculous. I'm trying to have a discussion about an issue that may be personal but I can see that it has broader applications to others. Straight up ridiculous how some are you responding it's not superhero vs megalomaniac. And I'm not gonna sit here and try and justify my point because "blah blah blah I am friends with this i've helped them I know dis dat and the other" so you can finally take your head out of the sand and consider what I've said.

I can look at myself and realise what negative traits I have, or the group that I belong to has. I can actually buttfuck myself (I know, it sounds impossible.) Can you do the same?
If you gave me a long-heated criticism of a group that I associated with I'd gladly take it as a means of improvement.
 

Rebis

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In canada, the government is finally looking into banning and criminalizing conversion therapy. I know online comments will be biased towards ignorant loud-mouths, but the majority in those spaces felt that the government could be dealing with more important issues. When people react with "the goverment could do better things with their time and power" it's a euphanism for how they really feel about LGBTQ.

We've come a long way, but there's still problems with our culture. In my opinion, the LGBTQ group has every right to be sensitive. It's silly when cis/hetero people say they feel 'oppressed' by the small minority.
slaves were never oppressed, there were always more slaves than white people, on plantations.
12.7/10 logic
View attachment 5281
Plants outnumber us a big fucking number ratio'd to 1.
 

Rebis

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Yeah, of course it seems like I explained my point with hesitation. Why do you think that is? Well, maybe it's due to the fact that there seems to be no discussion about a movement in terms of evaluation from people outside of the group. I see no healthy discussion around this topic: It's either undying preaching or vilified hatred. I don't see anything in the middle going: "Well, I see the advantages and disadvantages of the collective" .This would be reasonable to dismiss if it was an actual nation, with a long-standing culture of tradition, heritage, language and food. But it's not, it's well within western ideology, it's well within the scope of individuality. It's well within the scope of comprehension. Most of us discussing this are part of western civilisation.
 

what

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i think that your point of view is justified... to an extent.
LGBTQ+ people are a bit exclusive in who they interact with, but this is because there are still so many people that judge them based on what they are and not on who they are.

i'm in a bit of a complex situation. i'm bi and non-binary, but i haven't told this to anyone. in fact, even through writing you people will be the first to know this about me. anyway, so i've been testing how my friends would react via debates, hypotheticals and watching very closely how they reacted to one of my other friends coming out.

the reason i am afraid of telling people (and the reason i would shut people out excessively if i had come out) is that people, at least in my experience, have a tendancy to force their own morals and oppinions on other people, or judge those people in accordance to their morals and oppinions. my life now is good, my friends are good (if a little homophobic) and i don't want to fuck it up trying to live as who i truly want to be.

i already get judged on a daily basis by people who do not know me personally, about my religion.
i am the only openly atheist person in my year (my parents sent me to a christian school), and while this does not cause conflict of any kind, people do treat me noticeably different. sometimes this manifests itself in the way people avoid me, sometimes they're overly friendly, sometimes they talk with a slight tone of pity in their voice. this hurts a surprising amount (and then i beat myself up on how irrational it is for me to be upset about this, causing me to become more upset), and i am lucky that i have a group of friends that are as good as they are to help when needed. but if i were to come out, i would have this all over again about my gender/orientation, and there would be no guaruntee that my friends wouldn't judge me.

if it were up to me, i would get rid of all this politics about LGBTQ+ (INCLUDING THE LGBTQ+ GROUPS). i just want to live my life as i prefer, as a bi and non-binary person, and not get treated differently to anyone else. i think that this issue is too polarised to go away quickly, but by dialing back the intesity of LGBTQ+ groups and instead replacing them with an accepting attitude in the rest of the population (which is kind of what the groups are supplementing), we remove the need for LGBTQ+ exclusivity.

also worth noting, to put a number on what you people were talking about before, the perentage of the population that is LGBTQ+ is ~7%, in australia.

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
anyway...
in answer to your original statement/question:
look, i don't know what was going on in your head, in the person's head that did that stuff to you, nor do i know exactly what happened and why it happened. from a total outsider's perspective, i would say that what they did isn't justified, and i don't exactly know why they did it, but i also think you made some unfair ussumptions. if what you were saying about why they did it is true, that they are exclusive about who they associate with, then maybe my point of view can help explain why that might be.

sorry about the rant.
 

byhisello99

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I'm not sure this has much to do with LGBTQ+EIEIO. It strikes me that this behavior is found in many self-segregated groups. I've found it in workforces in automotive manufacturers, in university student bodies with groups segregated by interest, or sect, or race, and the list goes on. I joined two internet groups at nearly the same time, and found myself shunned fairly shortly in both. So, the problem is me. Maybe.

One was a social group following an on-line web novel, a coming of age tale about a rock musician in the 1980s. I watched as several people were hounded out of the group for violating unwritten group norms. The problem was summed up by the hounder-in-chief, who wrote that she "had no idea a mature white male could have his feelings hurt." I violated another unwritten rule when I opened a comment with "The transgender phenomenon, present from the dawn of man, ..." I was a transphobe because I insulted all transgenders with the word "phenomenon." That meant I was also a homophobe, and obviously a racist, and everything went downhill quickly. The "other" was the enemy, regardless of evidence.

The other was a group similar to this, based on MBTI type. Nearly all moderators were uniformly kneejerk partisans of a single US party, with the shared assumption that if you weren't a kneejerk partisan plaid, you had to be a kneejerk partisan brocade. I'm neither, thus there was nowhere for me in the framework. I managed to avoid that by no longer posting in politics, until the poison seeped out into the rest of the forum. Shortly, I had a couple of venomous members following my every post and disputing science with Facebook posts, claiming I didn't know what I was talking about on any subject.

I've seen this many times over the past 70 years. In a company or a work site with an unofficial power source, it's the norm. The in-group purges everyone else, with a ceiling set on competence at the level of the pseudo-leader. It's a cancer that destroys the organization. Just as social groups that become echo chambers wind up destroying themselves once there is no longer anyone left to attack.
 

Puffy

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The way I see it, if you're friends with someone that doesn't mean you have to be 100% included in their social life. For example, if I have female friends and they decide they're going to have a women's night out then it's probably not appropriate, as a guy, that I attend.

They haven't done anything to explicitly reject or exclude me in that case. It would be like saying I'm being rejected because I can't go with them into a women's bathroom. Also it wouldn't be fair for them to not have their night out, and to miss out on all opportunities to bond as women, on consideration of my feelings. It would only potentially be rejection/exclusion if I were female and they hadn't invited me for whatever reason.

Similarly you can have LGBTQ+ friends as a heterosexual and there will be areas where your social life overlaps and doesn't. There might be LGBTQ+ events, like Pride for example, where it would be appropriate and appreciated for me to attend to show my support, learn more about my friend's culture, meet hir other friends, etc. And there would be other events where it's not as appropriate.

I've been in the situation before where I only had LGBTQ+ friends and would feel like an outsider or left out from time to time. However, I simultaneously acknowledged that that was my problem and not theirs. As if I was more proactive in building a social life in other circles then I wouldn't feel that way.
 
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