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Need to feel superior and being 'always right'

BurnedOut

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Shamelessly self-aware yet I cannot help it. I often fantasize upon my 'greatness' and how I am 'above' people. I dislike being wrong about my deductions and I dislike having my deductions pointed out as specious without receiving logical enough reasons. Despite my therapy, I am still prone to intellectualizing my problems like it is second nature but thankfully it is much less severe now insofar keeping me mentally stable and more accepting towards my own emotions and that of others but I still secretly wish to be correct at all times.

My father shares the same trait and he is also tested an INTP. We both have this 'scientific' mindset where we only accept criticism as valid when it is backed with logic. Now this is irrational because we determine the 'logic' of the criticism received.

I am starting to believe that somehow this tendency is innate. Do you guys share the same problem?

FYI, I don't believe in MBTI anymore. So let us say, I have lots of tendencies that INTPs purportedly possess. But since this is intpf, this Q just feels apt in this forum.
 

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If I'm not right I'd rather admit it and explain how/why my understanding has changed rather than double down on making a fool of myself.

Granted there are times when I don't agree with someone and they have a valid point but so do I and I won't concede my position while neither of us has a firm grasp on the truth of the matter. For example if I was having an argument with someone about who is currently winning the war in the Ukraine, both of us could cite evidence to support our position but neither of us actually knows for certain what's going on.
 

Puffy

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My short version hypothesis - it just sounds like a form of insecurity to me. As self-confidence and acceptance increases there’s less need for this kind of behaviour and it changes.

It’s kind of an aside but I feel people often use MBTI to hide their issues behind and make them out to be innate. If it’s innate there’s nothing you can do about it, so it’s a means of avoiding the issue and/ or doing anything to try and change it.
 

BurnedOut

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If I'm not right I'd rather admit it
That's what I started doing as I matured. It is much better to accept your folly quickly and get over it.


it just sounds like a form of insecurity to me
I don't suffer from self-esteem issues. Rather have a higher-than-average self-esteem at this point but not to the extent of having a superiority complex.
 

ZenRaiden

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So should I or should I not?
I still don't know?
What does your "father" want?
 

EndogenousRebel

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There is some debate on apriorisms to be had for sure.

If you go to the gym to be fitter than other people, rather than to be fit for yourself, and you actually hold yourself to that standard, you won't have any problem when someone points out that someone else looks fitter than you.

The issue I think most people have, including myself is that they know they should only compare themselves to themselves but they habitually slip into different modes of thought that manifest envy and resentment.

It so subtle with me and I only notice it when I'm playing videogames alone in my room which I rarely do anymore. I'm much starting to prefer games like Minecraft where I'm just chilling doing random shit and occasionally playing with friends. It's much nicer than having to face a nasty side of myself that is competitive with something that's supposed to be fun.

Too reiterate, I believe it's the type of investment that we're making when we do a task that determines our attitude to outcomes. If having arguments and winning is something you feel the need to bet your personal value on, then yes, it's possible there are insecurities about. But I don't think that's always the case.
 

ZenRaiden

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Not at All.
I think it is the P part that confuses people.
I think logic rarelly confuses people.
 

EndogenousRebel

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Cause and effect is only obvious when we know the causes and effects. Sensations are used to observe, and Thinking makes it make sense to us in a sequential way. Any failure here is what causes Perceptions to go down the shitter. Not to mention Feeling.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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Feeling afraid of being wrong, or perceived as being in the wrong may show that the person doesn't feel safe, or that the people they are with make them feel insecure, or that they lack the maturity or social skills to deal with unknown people who might judge said person. If it happens with everyone you know then I think it's less an issue of perceived safety and more an issue of fighting for attention.

Having your deductions called wrong indicates that you're prone to voicing your opinion or predictions on things. If so maybe because there's positive attention associated with being right, or maybe it's meant to control the situation and what is being discussed, maybe you're insecure about having to adjust to what others are saying. Lots of factors that you should analyze to find the causes.

You're probably used to fighting over who's right in a society full of cheap rhetoric and dumb arguments. Very likely that you're an introvert and isolated intellectually when growing up among large groups of aggressive or different peers. Being different might put you in a spot where you have to defend your diversity by proving that it gives you some advantage, or by being overconfident, or by fighting over stuff.

You mention therapy. If you're self-aware of your tendencies then you can adjust them with time, steer them in the preferred direction. Always question why do I feel or act a certain way, do I like/dislike the feeling/action/result, do I want it or not, what reaction would I prefer in this situation.

The situation isn't over after you missed the right reaction, you can still correct your behavior to the desired pattern at any later point. If it's something that you said and you realize it after the conversation then you can apologize or explain why your reaction was bad. Before saying something, you could try adding, I'm not sure, I could be wrong or generally approaching the interaction with the assumption that someone may be just as right as you are or know something you don't.
 

Puffy

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If I'm not right I'd rather admit it
That's what I started doing as I matured. It is much better to accept your folly quickly and get over it.


it just sounds like a form of insecurity to me
I don't suffer from self-esteem issues. Rather have a higher-than-average self-esteem at this point but not to the extent of having a superiority complex.
That doesn’t always mean the person doesn’t have self-esteem issues. Some people do that to overcompensate, for example. Generally self-esteem correlates with not needing to be seen as right, as internally that person has nothing to prove to others.

Glaer has already gone into it in more detail and you know yourself better than me anyway. I meant my post as my association with the behaviours you describe not as something personal.
 

BurnedOut

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f it's something that you said and you realize it after the conversation then you can apologize or explain why your reaction was bad.
That is the change that did happen in me and I am glad it did. I generally have no qualms with people pointing the things that I get wrong or do wrong and I take it well. That is because I cannot lie to myself as well as the general populace leaving me vulnerable to my own criticism. Therefore, somebody else pointing out my follies is a nonissue for me.

That being said, many of you guys may know that INTJs have this kind of behaviour. Even if I don't believe in MBTI as a tool of 'typing' more than a tool to 'explore tendencies', I may seem like an INTJ to you all. But my question remains and I want you all to toss your modesty aside for a while and ponder over how many times you guys get things right about others and situations? I know that most of us here have a predilection towards being analytical.
 

BurnedOut

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. Very likely that you're an introvert and isolated intellectually when growing up among large groups of aggressive or different peers. Being different might put you in a spot where you have to defend your diversity by proving that it gives you some advantage, or by being overconfident, or by fighting over stuff.
I have never been much of a loner in a true sense because I have always had friends as I grew up. Intellectually isolated? Definitely. That part of my life started after school. I used to be very truant in fights until I was defeated logically. Many of the incidents that took place later in my life proved that being right did not really amount to anything much except for saving my arse in exceptional circumstances. But then I started thinking, 'But wait. If being analytical makes you naturally righter than being who are not innately analytical, how would people who are analytical like me fare?'

To be honest, being modest when you know you are superior is not exactly modesty. That sounds very brazen but it is what it is. I don't like being modest when its unnecessary because I know in my head that I am lying to the other person and that makes me feel like an imposter.
 

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Trying to win a debate by simply being right is the brute force approach, which works when circumstances are advantageous but what if they're not, how do you win a debate when outnumbered or there’s a power dynamic that forces you to be polite even if your manners aren't reciprocated?

Humility isn't a matter of how you feel it's a matter of priorities, I may be right but my opponent raises a good point and I can't let him get much mileage out of it. So I concede that his point is valid but then I dispose of it by saying it's only circumstantial evidence and thus doesn't really prove anything.

If I just dismissed it immediately that wouldn't really work, the point hasn't been adequately addressed so they could pick it up again. But by being humble I put the onus on them to match my humility or lose face and that forces them to drop the point after I dispose of it.

Of course I can only do this once or twice so I need to be mindful to pick which points I dispose of strategically, if I get the right ones it can cripple their entire argument.
 

Puffy

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f it's something that you said and you realize it after the conversation then you can apologize or explain why your reaction was bad.
That is the change that did happen in me and I am glad it did. I generally have no qualms with people pointing the things that I get wrong or do wrong and I take it well. That is because I cannot lie to myself as well as the general populace leaving me vulnerable to my own criticism. Therefore, somebody else pointing out my follies is a nonissue for me.

That being said, many of you guys may know that INTJs have this kind of behaviour. Even if I don't believe in MBTI as a tool of 'typing' more than a tool to 'explore tendencies', I may seem like an INTJ to you all. But my question remains and I want you all to toss your modesty aside for a while and ponder over how many times you guys get things right about others and situations? I know that most of us here have a predilection towards being analytical.

I probably get things more wrong than right most of the time. But modesty aside, perhaps like yourself, I'd say I have a choleric temperament. I'm quick to form opinions, can be stubborn, enjoy getting into arguments. I'm perceptive so I often see things others around me don't and I'm articulate with language so I'm good at communicating it. So I think I often generate insight that people appreciate.

But these tendencies can also be big blind spots, as I can get too wrapped up in myself that I don't see what's happening around me. I do think I learn the most and have changed perspective the most when I open myself to listening to what others are saying.

So over time I've observed these tendencies in myself and often try to ask myself, what is the underlying need behind my position in this, before diving in. Sometimes theres's a need for it and sometimes the need is better addressed in a different way.

I say the insecurity thing, as often when I catch myself fantasising in the way you describe, it's because I perceive there to be something inadequate about me and my life as it is. So I imagine it needs to be more, by making some special discovery or having a special role in life that sets me apart from others.

But as I've come to accept myself as I am, with a much more humble place in things, this has come to not be that important to me. As a result, I have a more egalitarian view of life and see myself as on the same level as others with different strengths and weaknesses. So I find it easier to relate to people and overall my quality of life and happiness is better.
 

Ex-User (9086)

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To be honest, being modest when you know you are superior is not exactly modesty. That sounds very brazen but it is what it is. I don't like being modest when its unnecessary because I know in my head that I am lying to the other person and that makes me feel like an imposter.
Couple of questions. Why do you think that you are superior to someone? In what dimension do you think that you are superior to them? Why do you feel the need to communicate your superiority to others?

I don't see how what you're doing would serve you, it seems to foster negative interaction with other people.

Assuming that you label people as inferior or superior to you and if you know that the person you're talking to is your inferior, why talk to them? You're wasting productive cycles of your brain on someone who won't enrich you in any way. Shouldn't you be seeking out people on your level or people who are superior to you to learn and benefit from?

So I'm curious, why not approach the interaction with the other person focusing on the stuff that you can do together, stuff that you both benefit from.

I generally don't view people as superior or inferior, but as interesting and boring or safe and dangerous. At worst people are a threat to my family's safety or they could be so boring that I want to avoid them and do something else.
 

sushi

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its more INTJ than INTP
 

Drvladivostok

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Shamelessly self-aware yet I cannot help it. I often fantasize upon my 'greatness' and how I am 'above' people. I dislike being wrong about my deductions and I dislike having my deductions pointed out as specious without receiving logical enough reasons. Despite my therapy, I am still prone to intellectualizing my problems like it is second nature but thankfully it is much less severe now insofar keeping me mentally stable and more accepting towards my own emotions and that of others but I still secretly wish to be correct at all times.

My father shares the same trait and he is also tested an INTP. We both have this 'scientific' mindset where we only accept criticism as valid when it is backed with logic. Now this is irrational because we determine the 'logic' of the criticism received.

I am starting to believe that somehow this tendency is innate. Do you guys share the same problem?

FYI, I don't believe in MBTI anymore. So let us say, I have lots of tendencies that INTPs purportedly possess. But since this is intpf, this Q just feels apt in this forum.
Yep. It's not that I want always want my believe to be right, it's that I want to believe in right things. (The difference isn't in the semantics, it's in the intention).

Truth is something so sacred that I'm cursed to constantly analyze my thought of errors, even though I'm nowhere as smart as I'd like to be I try to find the truth even if my human ability is limited. I sort of comfort myself in questions but you gotta reach a conclusion somehow.
 

Hadoblado

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I see people as being poor at understanding their relationship with the truth, as a general rule. Often it's considered kind of binary, as in, you're either the sort of person who is right, or the sort of person who is wrong. A lot of people who acknowledge they are capable of being wrong struggle to provide examples, suggesting they are meeting an expectation of humility rather than making genuine statements.

One thing that helps a lot is understanding what defines your stakes. I find that when I am feeling brash/aggressive/competitive, the cost of being wrong is higher. This is both internal (it feels worse), but also external (if I am seen as confidently wrong, I am not just wrong I'm a fool). The antidote is collaboration and acceptance. I can engineer myself an environment where it's okay to be wrong by being accepting/understanding when others are. The flipside is that these environments can stagnate if challenge is completely absent. So I want people who are assertive enough to challenge when warranted, but gentle enough I don't mind being wrong in front of them (which is largely reciprocal of how I treat them).
 

Black Rose

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To dominate is not my intent. I am passive in my approach. I understand that when it comes to debate the goal is to present the most comprehensive summary possible. I do not attack someone just because I think they are dumb or wrong. It is more that I know who I am interacting with and what it is they are working with. I use cognitive empathy to convey my points and to distinguish why I am making them. That way it is clear what I mean and what I don't mean. If I am attacked it is best to ignore my emotions and dispassionately disagree. I really do not want confrontation but inevitably misunderstanding happens. I am not a keyboard warrior. I don't pown people. There are too many arrogant people out there who I just can't talk to. Not because I lack the ability to communicate with them but just because they are passive-aggressive. I don't like to use the term micro-aggression but that is what passive aggression is. Once that happens I can no longer see them operating within good faith. Which is not the same as acting emotionally but deliberately conflating my arguments with my moral character. I visit a conservative tech forum where they always say the leftists are evil. And when I disagree they call me a leftist sympathizer. Nothing I do can change their minds so I avoid the politics section and only do the tech section. The well has already been poisoned.

I know I can get along with others here on INTP forum because usually I am not attacked. That behavior has been weeded out over time. To conflate argument with moral character is almost always bad. It says more about them than it does you. I know that what may seem stupid shouldn't be chastised. So I don't. I explain I don't impose. Time and again I measure myself against my own perspective, what I view as self-critical. I have in the past made mistakes and felt really really bad about myself. I was not being objective, I hurt people. I try not to. So I must stay objective and emotionally stable. Be logical like Spock. If I can't I do not participate. I've learned to let go of certain tendencies. Because I am sensitive. That bind me to seek retribution. Id rather be hurt than hurt others. But I cannot stand prejudice. Likely the dishonest person can't be trusted to act in good faith because they are self-absorbed or ignorant. They always accuse others of what they themselves are doing. The best thing to do is not direct confrontation. They are attacking your moral character. Ethos. What counters this is pathos, not logos. You must declare the honesty of yourself. Then they cannot divide the argument into provisions of who you are.

It is subtle but you cannot play the victim. All the evidence is there in the thread so others can objectively see what has happened. This falsifies any further lies they may tell. Emotion is hard to spot in text but is possible. I guess that this is just the peak of what I know about communication in the way I do it. If I am right I must objectively prove so. I do so not out of superiority but of honesty. The honest person always wins in the end. There isn't any way to define superior or inferior absolutely. But relatively objective standards can be known. What is plain to the eye, what is clear. I wasn't always able to communicate in this way. I kept silent. Never interjecting because I never had a fully formed opinion. Now I can defend myself non-aggressively. I can be trusted to be fair.

The gratification of the ego also breeds resentment. This makes it obvious when a person has problems argumenting. "Your stupid, I'm better than you". From that attitude, there is no ability to listen. There is no cognitive empathy. To be too self-assured. I'm not like that most times. Only when I perceive I am treated unfairly. I take the perspective that I can't do anything about it. That is when I feel hurt. I feel hurt when I cannot defend myself. I've gotten better but it is because my sensitivity detects when I am in danger and I inhibit myself. I am very careful now in what I say and to whom. A trait of social intelligence. It doesn't bother me anymore when others call me autistic. I know it's not true. I actually know what it is so other people are misinformed. I can be confident in myself for this. I wasn't before but now I am.

If there is anything else to add it is this. I treat everyone as persons. With dignity. I am not forceful but I stand up for myself. I am interested in ideas not winning like
Charlie Sheen. He is a cool guy though.
 

EndogenousRebel

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Realistically and ideally, the source of truth seeking should be sole stubbornness. Once you make that commitment, to find that you missed the mark in any meaningful capacity is painful.

The cost benefit analysis of employing self-deceptive measures vs reassessing your method/attainment of truth is something we don't see ourselves doing, and we become very uncomfortable via cognitive dissonance when we realize we are.

It's a pretty attractive idea that one can just shortcut their way to truth. Almost universally, "knowing" what the (one) truth is, is considered advantageous.

It gets at the root of what a God complex actually is, rather when does that begin and end?
 

Black Rose

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The cost benefit analysis of employing self-deceptive measures vs reassessing your method/attainment of truth is something we don't see ourselves doing, and we become very uncomfortable via cognitive dissonance when we realize we are.

For me, it all begins with Fi.

If it makes me cry inside (which very often happens) shit just got real.

It is my inhibiter. The source of my morality.

"I feel bad so I did something wrong, maybe I am a bad person?"

oG9y3gW.png
 

Black Rose

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Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement​

 

Drvladivostok

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I think being right is the desire of everyone, no one does and act on something he genuinely believes to be wrong without some mental gymnastics on oriented on truth. This is why people get uncomfortable when they can't explain the reason behind their action, they WANT it to be right but have a hard time explaining it.

People should have doubts, that is by definition how you compartementalize truth from error, the correct approach is not that you want your believe to be true, but that you're always correcting the errors of your thinking to get closer toward the truth.

INTPs are just generally more militant and ruthless in this desire. However by the mere virtue of trying to understand people's reasoning behind their action sometimes gets you stamped as being 'hard-headed' and 'mean', my advice is try to reaserch by yourself on the truth rather than getting it from second-hand sources.
 

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People should have doubts, that is by definition how you compartementalize truth from error, the correct approach is not that you want your believe to be true, but that you're always correcting the errors of your thinking to get closer toward the truth.
Yes I agree. Shockingly this is something that even children can observe but everyone has issues dealing with.

Hell, when I was entering college I had it in my mind that the world was fucked up for the singular reason that self-righteousness existed, failing to see the irony.
 

scorpiomover

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I dislike being wrong about my deductions
If you are always right, then your process of deduction can never improve. In that case, neither can your decisions. So your likelihood of getting a better life than you already have drops drastically.

If you think your life is perfect, then that's a good thing. But if you're far from happy with your life, then ....

OTOH, if you're often wrong, and you're not happy with your life, then every new correction means a good chance that your future will get better and better.

and I dislike having my deductions pointed out as specious without receiving logical enough reasons.
If your arguments are specious, then they're lip service to being right. That plays for and against your repuation.

If you are normally considered to be super-capable, then occasionally being proved wrong means you stop appearing like an inhuman alien who would probably consider humans as a lesser species that are only fit for being used in experiments like Mengele's.

If you are normally considered to be not all that competent, then occasionally being proved wrong just highlights your incompetence.

So if you've got a problem with being proved wrong publicly, then you have a problem with how the world perceives you. Either you're in the wrong job, or you hang out with the wrong people.

My father shares the same trait and he is also tested an INTP. We both have this 'scientific' mindset where we only accept criticism as valid when it is backed with logic. Now this is irrational because we determine the 'logic' of the criticism received.

I am starting to believe that somehow this tendency is innate. Do you guys share the same problem?
I consistently tested as an INTP and like it when people prove me wrong, because then I've got a good chance of learning something new that can improve my general reasoning and thus my future decisions and their consequences. Moreover, INTJs like to prove themselves right, and often fight against being proved wrong, and INTJs have opposite functions to INTPs. So I doubt that it's about functions.

I doubt that it's biologically genetic, not unless you have some weird biological trait that both your father and you share, that everyone who demands to be right shares. INTJs seem to be very different in all sorts of ways. So I really doubt that it's genetic.

I am not from your country, your ethnicity, your culture or your family. So I suspect that this is not about functions, and more about your background and/or your culture.

You can change your cultural assumptions. So I would suspect that you can change this.

Jewish culture says that accepting being proved wrong is a sign of strength, and is a learning moment. However, in the Jewish religion, Jewish men have a religious duty that they should always be learning and contemplating, unless one has something that needs to be done that cannot be done by someone else.

So I suspect that if you're always studying and learning, then being wrong on the odd occasion is not a big deal, because you're always working on improving your mind.

So if you want to change this, I would suggest trying to adopt an attitude that whenever you have free time, you're studying, learning, reading, etc, and whenever you are around people, you are seeking to learn from others, and treat that as if it's a obligation that is as serious as the way religions consider religious duties, i.e. that it's really important, and one day, the fate of the entire world could hinge on what you learned.

Then you don't mind being wrong, because that means learning something new, and you are always seeking to learn new things, because that's the attitude that you live by.
 

ZenRaiden

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It depends.
Wrong how.
Wrong in school? Being considered stupid by teachers and peers is not easy. Most normal people would find that at least annoying.
Being wrong where someones life depends on it?
Being wrong about dieting or exercising or at your job where its going to reduce performance?
There are times where being wrong is accepted.
For example some people find being wrong a soft thing.
Sometimes your wrong and sometimes you are right.
Sometimes people are willing to be wrong and argue only to see the argument of others not necessarily to fight to death about being right, but the other side might interpret this as stubbornness.

Culture dictates many factors in this sense.
Some people get angry for being shown wrong, but are OK, while some people are shown wrong and are angry and take it out on the other person.
Sometimes wrongs are matter of situational awareness.
For instance in sports someone might insist on you doing something wrong, despite it being viable move.

The point is it depends on situation and people and dynamics involved.

Even in math showing or not showing work could be interpreted differently.
Despite the fact math often has only one right answer and one solution alone.

Its also mood dependent. Not every time people have time to stop and search their memories and rewind and reflect quickly on what exactly is wrong.
So they might ostensibly fixate on being correct.


Good example is also how people talk about COVID.
Many people had no stakes in the game, so being wrong for them could be OK, so they make assumptions.
This is different from doctors who make policies and have to make moves that prevent people from dying.
Notably 20/20 vision.
If someone put mask protestors in position where they had to make the decisions prior to knowing what impact COVID has on organism they would have harder time as their career would be on the line.
People have hard time imagining that doctors did not know the impact COVID has on humans for better time of COVID.
In fact many people still forget that COVID is still unknown factor in long term health impact.
Yet many people would insist that it was known form the get go and that the governments over reacted.
However there were all kinds of situations where people got complex problems and shut downs of organs.
Despite people claiming mostly old people died this was not really known.
Many young people died also, albeit more rare, WRONGness in this situation has gradients of caution vs asserting certainty of preliminary knowledge.

Its also often neglected that state wide interventions were mostly fault of political rather than medical nature.

However retrospectively people who had their minds made up already would claim with certainty that its obvious that it was just a flu.

So willigness to be wrong is also matter of how people look at being wrong in total.
 

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getting into debates with idiots is useless you have a point to prove, usually it results both parties losing or one party getting butthurt.

My strategy right now is be silent and observe, and only get involved when there is an opportunity or profit. Most of the time, dumb arguements usually go nowhere.

Also insisting one is always right means less open mindedness and unable to percieve tolerate things from another person's shoes or point of view, no matter how absurd they are.
 

Puffy

"Wtf even was that"
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Being right all the time isn’t intellectual, which requires accepting there are many times you’re wrong and need to refine your understanding. Listening to others and what they say, being curious and inquisitive, is an opportunity to learn something new and refine your understanding.

So I’d say that intelligent people are more likely to be good listeners, open-minded and inquisitive. Humble in their admittance of how little they know. Needing to be right all the time is counter productive to these qualities. It assumes you’ve already arrived at the answer which kills any future enquiry or greater depth of understanding.
 

birdsnestfern

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If I'm stressed out, or got really bad service I can revert to that, but usually I use filters with people so that I am very steady and calm.

No, usually I ask a ton of questions and even repeat back to ensure I understood what they wanted, and usually work with people on a mutual resolution
 
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