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New theory of how INTPs develop

How well do you identified with the listed traits?

  • INTP - identify with all/most

    Votes: 14 32.6%
  • INTP - identify with some

    Votes: 17 39.5%
  • INTp - identify with few/none

    Votes: 8 18.6%
  • Non-INTP - identify with all/most

    Votes: 2 4.7%
  • Non-INTP - identify with some

    Votes: 2 4.7%
  • Non-INTP - identify with few/none

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    43

Deckard

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So my question is, if you're INTP, do you identify with all/some/none of these:

  1. Slow to learn physical muscle-memory tasks (e.g. juggling)
  2. You notice others are better than you at picking people out in crowds; for you it's a bit overwhelming, like information overload
  3. Sensitivity to bright sunlight
  4. Social anxiety
  5. Difficulty accessing words you know in conversation & writing; halting speech
  6. Hard to keep up with others in conversation when it comes to creative riffing / off-the-cuff wit
  7. Difficulty maintaining eye contact (i.e. difficulty multitasking between language tasks and face-reading)
  8. Low creative stamina; takes a lot of energy & effort to create
  9. General detachment from the sensory experience; little pleasure stimulated from sight/sound/touch, unless it's unusually engaging.
  10. Chronic muscle tension; difficulty releasing locked muscles
  11. Need excessive sleep to feel rested; body clock is often whacked
  12. (severe) difficulty maintaining attention when not engaged
  13. You have a general sense/intuition that you're not functioning at capacity or to your potential

I realise these symptoms intersect with other defined disorders, so I'm particularly interested if there are many who get almost 100% hits. Although I'm equally interested in disproving this hypothesis if it turns out there's only weak correlations evident.

Now for the background:

I have a theory on how people develop into INTPs, informed by some recent (unexpected and strange) transformative experiences which caused me to lose many quirks that I suspect are INTP-specific. The most profound aspect of the changes was a massive increase in function of my perception of sensory input (most notably sight, hearing, touch & motor feedback). There were significant cognitive changes too. To very briefly explain how this came about: I was having quite regular psychedelic trips, mostly spent inside my headphones with minimal other sensory input. At the peak of one such trip, I had a very unusual (for this particular psychedelic substance) hallucinatory experience of being "reborn", followed by a seriously trippy zone-out like parts of my brain were rebooting, and when I came to everything seemed like it was in high-def. It's as though my brain was actually taking in a bigger chunk of the total sum of sensory signal being transmitted to it. I suspect the combination of drugs & increased cerebral blood flow & sensory stimulation catalysed neurogenesis.

It seems the capacity for this increased function was always present, just inactive (i.e. some of the signal wasn't coming through). I've had subsequent trips, some of which have involved the same thing happening, and each time the subsequent changes contribute additively to an enhanced cognitive & sensory function. The subjective differences each time are absolutely profound. It seriously feels like superpowers (although that's just because it's a relative change). It's sorta like when your ear has been blocked for a few days and you become accustomed to the lower level of input, and when it's unblocked suddenly you have a sensation of having superhuman hearing. Now think what it would be like if that unblocked ear had been blocked your whole life, and apply that concept to all your senses and cognitive functions -- that may give you some idea of what I experienced.

The tie-in with INTP personalities is that I now suspect we INTPs are born with the full set of wiring (which have the capacity to transmit & process the entire set of sensory input, among other things), but for us some of them are inactive. The relative weakness of our sensory input as compared to other brains causes the INTP brain to develop differently: We compensate by developing structures to accommodate complex & accurate internal models of the world. I propose that the effects of these developmental differences, as well as the rest of the cognitive quirks of these circuits being offline (most particularly the reduced capacity to handle stimuli) defines the INTP's archetypal traits.

My way of informally testing this hypothesis, is to see how well INTPs identify with the set of traits/symptoms that have reduced/disappeared for me. I have a few alternate hypotheses, such as there being some trauma or disorder specific to my brain. General cerebral hypoxia in particular has a set of symptoms that fits well. These changes I've listed are perhaps uniquely & drastically obvious to me, since I've experienced both sides of it within a short period of time.
 

TimeAsylums

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  1. Slow to learn physical muscle-memory tasks (e.g. juggling)Tert Si/Shadow Se
  2. You notice others are better than you at picking people out in crowds; for you it's a bit overwhelming, like information overloadinf Fe
  3. Sensitivity to bright sunlight
  4. Social anxietyinf Fe
  5. Difficulty accessing words you know in conversation & writing; halting speechStunted development senses, but attributed growth in other areas aka logic, Dom Ti
  6. Hard to keep up with others in conversation when it comes to creative riffing / off-the-cuff wit Ti dom slow, Aux Ne develop, faster
  7. Difficulty maintaining eye contact (i.e. difficulty multitasking between language tasks and face-reading)dependent upon person, but inf Fe
  8. Low creative stamina; takes a lot of energy & effort to createAux Ne develop
  9. General detachment from the sensory experience; little pleasure stimulated from sight/sound/touch, unless it's unusually engaging.tert Si/Shadow Se
  10. Chronic muscle tension; difficulty releasing locked musclesTert Si
  11. Need excessive sleep to feel rested; body clock is often whackedTert Si
  12. (severe) difficulty maintaining attention when not engagedTi dom Ne Aux disengages from physical (s) reality/physical object
  13. You have a general sense/intuition that you're not functioning at capacity or to your potential^Intuition mentioned

^/inb4 but no wate no i has these two

just attempting to attribute functions as a generality...as usual

btw, nothing new here...no new theory.

See personalityjunkie
see oddlydevelopedtypes/Anna Moss INTP book
see google INTP profile
See SW profile

As far as I can tell, you're just diving into some of your functions, maybe some shadow functions but primarily undeveloped ones.

How old are you? Might serve as a good identifier for the stages of development (subject from person to person obv.)
 
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The tie-in with INTP personalities is that I now suspect we INTPs are born with the full set of wiring (which have the capacity to transmit & process the entire set of sensory input, among other things), but for us some of them are inactive. The relative weakness of our sensory input as compared to other brains causes the INTP brain to develop differently: We compensate by developing structures to accommodate complex & accurate internal models of the world. I propose that the effects of these developmental differences, as well as the rest of the cognitive quirks of these circuits being offline (most particularly the reduced capacity to handle stimuli) defines the INTP's archetypal traits.
I can't comment too much as a non-INTP, but the obvious question is whether ^this applies to all individuals. (With the "unlocked" state possibly activated by different substances depending on type? *Ponders epigenetics*)

And the second most obvious question: What was the substance and dosage?
 

Deckard

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I can't comment too much as a non-INTP, but the obvious question is whether ^this applies to all individuals.
Yeah, that's what I'm trying to work out. If it's a common phenomenon then there are huge implications for our understanding of cognitive functions & disorders and for new avenues for treatment / cognitive enhancement. On the other hand, if it's not widely applicable it's probably irresponsible to even talk about it (since the substance in question has potential for abuse).

(With the "unlocked" state possibly activated by different substances depending on type? *Ponders epigenetics*)
Not sure how this fits with type theory, but I'd guess a correlation with extraverted & highly creative types.

And the second most obvious question: What was the substance and dosage?
Dextromethorphan hydrobromide 600mg, sometimes plus piracetam.
 

TimeAsylums

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Oh, and I see you're replying already, but just to throw it a bit more

Common running theory is that we indeed have all 8 functions, our first four functional stack, your type (i.e. INTP), unsure about theories regarding the shadow (whether its reversed or backwards etc...idk), but yeah you are correct about the wiring being there, I think most people here accept it as a stimulus things, how much stimulus you have towards a certain perception/intake/etc.

As for drugs, for unlocking/delving into the deeper functions, sure why not look at how people use alcohol already to become uninhibited. Makes sense.
 

Deckard

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As for drugs, for unlocking/delving into the deeper functions, sure why not look at how people use alcohol already to become uninhibited. Makes sense.

Right; I should have clarified -- these were permanent changes, so somewhat different to temporary disinhibition.
 

TimeAsylums

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these were permanent changes

Shit. Are you serious?
Are you aware of the potentialities that means?
Jesus.
Either a rewiring of the brain or something permanent to the psyche. Oh shit.
(Yes I saw "catalyzed neurogenesis" and etc)

The changes were permanent? Now I'm curious.
 

Deckard

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Shit. Are you serious?
Are you aware of the potentialities that means?
Jesus.
Either a rewiring of the brain or something permanent to the psyche. Oh shit.
(Yes I saw "catalyzed neurogenesis" and etc)

The changes were permanent? Now I'm curious.
Yeah. I haven't even listed all the positive effects here, I just picked a cross-section that would have been identifiable even if I'd lived with them my whole life. Here's a bit more detail I wrote about the experience itself, which I think is super interesting from a neurological perspective (although pretty scary to experience):

Deckard said:
For some time I'd been searching for "something", and had relatively recently become aware that I only really felt myself on psychedelics. This was a bit strange, since I place a very high value on reason, groundedness and objectivity. Following a series of trips on a strong dissociative over the course of several weeks, I experienced a very visceral transformation at the peak of one such trip.

I had a subjective experience of being "reborn", and came to as though from unconsciouness. I awoke with an immediate awareness of enhanced vision and hearing. It was so marked that it felt that I was seeing and hearing in high definition; everything was clear, colours were bright, sounds were crisp and detailed, beauty was apparent everywhere. I felt in touch with my body's movements like I had never been; my brain and its senses felt they wre finally at "full capacity", despite my having no previous awareness of a lack.

These changes persisted into sobriety, and it soon became apparent that it wasn't a mere drug afterglow or some delusion or psychosis (I was naturally highly skeptical). Now six weeks later I have had a few more trips on this substance to explore the phenomena, and have had similar experiences, the result of which is that I have had these punctuated moments at the peak of trips which have contributed to the gradual restoration of my faculties.

Subjectively, I feel incredible. There are a host of symptoms I was previously suffering from that are now gone: social anxiety, difficulty conversing with people, slow learning, inattention, mental strain with creativity [...].

The really curious part that you may be interested in was how I perceived these events as they were happening; I am reminded in many ways of Susan Blackmore's experience consciously living through a stroke, as described in her TED talk. For me, when these episodes happen, I feel an urge to sit down, my back arches and I feel a heat in the base of my neck, and my mind goes off into psychedelic la-la land. When I can pull myself back into conscious awareness, things are not quite right. Sometimes my vision, coordination and coherent thought are completely wonky and not working properly. Sometimes it's tachycardia and severe confusion.

Though a series of uncomfortable & disorienting perception shifts, this weirdness corrects itself. This process feels like parts of my brain are cycling on and off or rebooting, and I get strong anxiety and feeling that things are seriously wrong, and that this must be what a stroke feels like (at least, when thoughts are sufficiently coherent for these ideas to form). Often when everything comes back "online", it feels like the various parts of my brain & body are "out of sync". Doing a bit of moving around helps bring everything back together. Eventually I am left conscious, calm and aware, with a very obvious increase in all the faculties mentioned before. It's a relative change from my previous experience of the world / my body / my senses, but to me it feels like superhuman enhancement. I guess this is because I have lived my whole life with a deficit.
 
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Interesting experience. How long have you been using?

My immediate thoughts center around chemical reuptake inhibition (serotonin et al) as being partly responsible, but there's also a curiosity about the nature of potential changes in brain physiology (beneficial or otherwise) and things like Olney's lesions. Permanent changes... How much is too much of a good thing?
 

Hadoblado

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I'm actually working on a similar plasticity framework, though I'm more focused on the cognitive. I draw a pretty heavy analogy between autistic savants and INTPs.

You might want to get tested, and keep track of your functioning in an empirical fashion.

William James thought he had recorded the ultimate mystery under the influence of nitrous oxide. On returning to his normal state, he eagerly consulted the paper on which he had scrawled the great message.

It read:

Hogamus, Higamous,
Man is polygamous.
Higamous, Hogamous,
Woman is monagamous.

Drugs can do a great job of making people think they are getting smarter when this is actually not the case (sorry to be a wet blanket). You could be causing serious brain damage. The brain is very complex, the perceived benefits could be the result of damaging your inhibitory processes as previously mentioned, your judgement faculties, or some magic key to the 4th/5th room.

Also, out of curiosity, why do you feel the need to repeat the process if the effects are permanent? Are the results cumulative?

I recommend reading The Master's Game: Pathways to Higher Consciousness By Robert S. de Ropp.
 

Deckard

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Interesting experience. How long have you been using?
My immediate thoughts center around chemical reuptake inhibition (serotonin et al) as being partly responsible, but there's also a curiosity about the nature of potential changes in brain physiology (beneficial or otherwise) and things like Olney's lesions. Permanent changes... How much is too much of a good thing?
I've used psychedelics for several years in various phases of frequency. I'd been having DXM trips for a few weeks at a level I wouldn't encourage (complex reasons, won't go into here), but infrequently enough to avoid the possible psychosis that can come from abusing it on a ~daily fashion. So there might have been a SSRI-like effect, but one would think I'd have gotten similar effects when I was on an actual SSRI a while back, and the suddenness & apparent permanence of the effects doesn't really fit that hypothesis. As far as Olney's lesions go, the symptoms don't really fit and the one paper showing that possibility in rats was apparently not a credible study, so I was actually more worried about other kinds of brain damage. No evidence of that, though, although I'd love to get a MRI to see if there are any structural abnormalities. So far only positive changes, and luckily not the "I'm God" kind of positive changes; more down to earth functional stuff like improved motor coordination, higher capacity for exercise, reduced anxiety etc.



I'm actually working on a similar plasticity framework, though I'm more focused on the cognitive. I draw a pretty heavy analogy between autistic savants and INTPs.
As in, you're studying neuroplasticity? Or is that more of a personal interest thing? I'm also curious about Autism and savantism; they are both still poorly understood. Part of the interesting thing it appears to highlight is that certain kinds of abnormally high function often seem to come at the expense of other functions (not sure if this bears out statistically). If so, I'd be interested to understand why.

You might want to get tested, and keep track of your functioning in an empirical fashion.
That would be ideal, although I don't have any quantitative test results from before.

Drugs can do a great job of making people think they are getting smarter when this is actually not the case (sorry to be a wet blanket). You could be causing serious brain damage. The brain is very complex, the perceived benefits could be the result of damaging your inhibitory processes as previously mentioned, your judgement faculties, or some magic key to the 4th/5th room.
Not at all, those are good points and I gave them all serious consideration (alongside all the other possibilities for why it might not be a genuine change or good change). I've had all kinds of trips before, and have a decent layman's understanding of neurological disorders. So I know what being high feels like, I know what afterglows feel like, I know what reality distortions, delusions, confusion, anxiety and even psychotic breaks feel like (too much LSD my first time). Taking psychoactive drugs also give you a much more concrete cognitive model of what sobriety is like. So essentially, I agree with your line of thinking and have thoroughly been down all those paths looking for evidence of distortion/delusion, especially when the effects continued into sobriety.

Some kind of delusion or psychosis would actually be a much simpler answer; there's just no evidence for those hypotheses that I'm aware of. I mean, I'm an eternal skeptic; I can't even know for 100% sure that I exist at all. So I'm not ruling anything out, just narrowing down the hypotheses by how well they fit the available evidence. Unfortunately the majority of the evidence I have is entirely subjective, dependent on my memories from before, and not able to be shared with others. It's better for me, since I can actually experience the dramatically obvious change first-hand, and I know my body & mind well enough to know I'm sober. But that leaves you little to judge by. I suppose you could make an assessment of how lucid my writing appears to be, and if that's not enough to go by, it would make sense to withhold judgement given lack of evidence. Which is exactly why this is hard to meaningfully share with others.

Also, out of curiosity, why do you feel the need to repeat the process if the effects are permanent? Are the results cumulative?
The results have been cumulative. I was also simply curious enough about the experience to warrant further exploration. I wanted to answer the question of whether it was an afterglow (in which case I should expect another trip to feel more or less like a normal trip), or an actual increase in baseline function (in which case I should expect another trip would feel like an significantly enhanced trip). I definitively experienced the latter, which was a useful bit of information to add to the pool.

I recommend reading The Master's Game: Pathways to Higher Consciousness By Robert S. de Ropp.
Thanks for the recommendation. Just out of curiosity, what's your opinion on the use of psychedelics in general?
 

Duxwing

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We can quite easily test your hypothesis about visual acuity. If you wore glasses to see better at a distance before you started tripping, then you had 20/40 or poorer vision then; the prescription of your glasses may even directly or indirectly tell you what vision you had. If taking the drugs improved your visual acuity, then you would consequently have needed to reduce the strength of your glasses or stop wearing them entirely: have you?

If you have never worn glasses, then your vision is better than 20/40. Although the lack of baseline data means we can never know if the drugs improved your vision within the range of 20/20 - 20/40, you may have had 20/20 vision beforehand; coming up better than 20/20 might indicate that the drugs improved your vision.

You could also exploit the hypothesized cumulative effect by testing your vision now and then testing it after each dose: if you are correct, then the data should follow an upward slope--or even a curve! Yet I think that you may have improved your vision by permanently shutting down an inhibitor of visual function that remains on to either save energy or prevent damage by overload when the brain perceives no threat: people under extreme stress report similar experiences of sharper senses. I highly recommend not taking any more drugs.

-Duxwing
 

Deckard

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We can quite easily test your hypothesis about visual acuity. If you wore glasses to see better at a distance before you started tripping, then you had 20/40 or poorer vision then; the prescription of your glasses may even directly or indirectly tell you what vision you had. If taking the drugs improved your visual acuity, then you would consequently have needed to reduce the strength of your glasses or stop wearing them entirely: have you?

If you have never worn glasses, then your vision is better than 20/40. Although the lack of baseline data means we can never know if the drugs improved your vision within the range of 20/20 - 20/40, you may have had 20/20 vision beforehand; coming up better than 20/20 might indicate that the drugs improved your vision.

You could also exploit the hypothesized cumulative effect by testing your vision now and then testing it after each dose: if you are correct, then the data should follow an upward slope--or even a curve!

I suppose it may not be completely obvious from my explanation, but eyesight problems that glasses can correct have nothing to do with any deficit that may occur after the point that light enters the optic nerve. If I were suggesting that whatever changes occurred might have affected the physical structure or optical performance of my eyes, then your test might have the power to disprove my hypothesis. But that's not my hypothesis (because it isn't really plausible) -- my hypothesis is related to neurogenesis catalysed by stimulation. If there were a visual acuity test that provided results independent of eye optics, that'd work, but I doubt such a thing exists.

Yet I think that you may have improved your vision by permanently shutting down an inhibitor of visual function that remains on to either save energy or prevent damage by overload when the brain perceives no threat: people under extreme stress report similar experiences of sharper senses. I highly recommend not taking any more drugs.

-Duxwing
Yeah, someone elsewhere suggested this may be the restoration of lost function caused by trauma. Specifically, cerebral hypoxia is a possibility I've been looking at -- it can be caused by traumatic events that result in low oxygen to the brain, like a near-drowning. Which is a decent hypothesis and one I've been seriously considering. I'd have to be convinced that it's a plausible fit to the evidence, and have something suggesting its likelihood above other plausible explanations, like some evidence that such a traumatic event did occur (which I don't currently have).
 

Chad

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So my question is, if you're INTP, do you identify with all/some/none of these:

  1. Slow to learn physical muscle-memory tasks (e.g. juggling) Yes, actually
  2. You notice others are better than you at picking people out in crowds; for you it's a bit overwhelming, like information overload Maybe worse then average but I don't really feel overwhelming when trying
  3. Sensitivity to bright sunlight Yes
  4. Social anxiety No, I don't and its one of the main reasons I still have a hard time accepting the INTP type for myself.
  5. Difficulty accessing words you know in conversation & writing; halting speech Yes, mostly likely far worse then the average member of this forum.
  6. Hard to keep up with others in conversation when it comes to creative riffing / off-the-cuff wit I have not recognized this normally I feel very quick witted but my wit general misses the mark.
  7. Difficulty maintaining eye contact (i.e. difficulty multitasking between language tasks and face-reading) Direct eye contact gives me a head ache I am not sure why.
  8. Low creative stamina; takes a lot of energy & effort to create This could be true I don't actually spend a lot of time creating so I don't know for sure.
  9. General detachment from the sensory experience; little pleasure stimulated from sight/sound/touch, unless it's unusually engaging. To some degree, I am far more attracted the extreme sensory experiences then the normal mandarin ones.
  10. Chronic muscle tension; difficulty releasing locked muscles Nope I can't say I have ever had this issue.
  11. Need excessive sleep to feel rested; body clock is often whacked My body clock is completely messed up I can relate to that.
  12. (severe) difficulty maintaining attention when not engaged Yes
  13. You have a general sense/intuition that you're not functioning at capacity or to your potential I feel I could function at a higher capacity all the times. I have never worded it that way but it fits my personality quite well.

I realise these symptoms intersect with other defined disorders, so I'm particularly interested if there are many who get almost 100% hits. Although I'm equally interested in disproving this hypothesis if it turns out there's only weak correlations evident.

Now for the background:

I have a theory on how people develop into INTPs, informed by some recent (unexpected and strange) transformative experiences which caused me to lose many quirks that I suspect are INTP-specific. The most profound aspect of the changes was a massive increase in function of my perception of sensory input (most notably sight, hearing, touch & motor feedback). There were significant cognitive changes too. To very briefly explain how this came about: I was having quite regular psychedelic trips, mostly spent inside my headphones with minimal other sensory input. At the peak of one such trip, I had a very unusual (for this particular psychedelic substance) hallucinatory experience of being "reborn", followed by a seriously trippy zone-out like parts of my brain were rebooting, and when I came to everything seemed like it was in high-def. It's as though my brain was actually taking in a bigger chunk of the total sum of sensory signal being transmitted to it. I suspect the combination of drugs & increased cerebral blood flow & sensory stimulation catalysed neurogenesis.

It seems the capacity for this increased function was always present, just inactive (i.e. some of the signal wasn't coming through). I've had subsequent trips, some of which have involved the same thing happening, and each time the subsequent changes contribute additively to an enhanced cognitive & sensory function. The subjective differences each time are absolutely profound. It seriously feels like superpowers (although that's just because it's a relative change). It's sorta like when your ear has been blocked for a few days and you become accustomed to the lower level of input, and when it's unblocked suddenly you have a sensation of having superhuman hearing. Now think what it would be like if that unblocked ear had been blocked your whole life, and apply that concept to all your senses and cognitive functions -- that may give you some idea of what I experienced.

The tie-in with INTP personalities is that I now suspect we INTPs are born with the full set of wiring (which have the capacity to transmit & process the entire set of sensory input, among other things), but for us some of them are inactive. The relative weakness of our sensory input as compared to other brains causes the INTP brain to develop differently: We compensate by developing structures to accommodate complex & accurate internal models of the world. I propose that the effects of these developmental differences, as well as the rest of the cognitive quirks of these circuits being offline (most particularly the reduced capacity to handle stimuli) defines the INTP's archetypal traits.

My way of informally testing this hypothesis, is to see how well INTPs identify with the set of traits/symptoms that have reduced/disappeared for me. I have a few alternate hypotheses, such as there being some trauma or disorder specific to my brain. General cerebral hypoxia in particular has a set of symptoms that fits well. These changes I've listed are perhaps uniquely & drastically obvious to me, since I've experienced both sides of it within a short period of time.

53% for me. However, it is possible that I am not and INTP.
 

Hadoblado

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Psychedelics? I don't use them because I have some nasty heritable diseases in the family which can be activated by the use of drugs. I have no issue with other people using them, so long as they don't become my problem as a result.
 

BigApplePi

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BAP theory of how INTPs develop

How do INTP's develop? I see two aspects. One is through heredity, the other through environment. Both play a role. Here is how as a possibility:

Heredity.
I can't comment much on wiring. So far I see wiring as somewhat crude, not refined enough for INTP details. Let the experts work on this.

It's been said slim people are more prone to INTP than plump people. We can speculate thinner people are more physically vulnerable; heavier people are more protected from the outside world. This would be a mind-set.

Environment.
I propose isolation of some sort from the outside world is a factor. One can speculate if heredity as described above leads one toward self-defense as opposed to a jolly interest in the outside world, that would tilt one toward introversion and inward attitudes. Environmental isolation can bring about a natural defense. That would be to form inward attitudes rather than outward simply to adjust. Inward could very well be inward thinking (Ti) and inward body feeling (Si) ... self-centered attitudes. Once one has this they must still deal with the outside world. Se is a possibility unless one is so isolated as not to have things to play with. That leaves Ne or Ni. Ni requires content which isolation is not conducive to. Isolation brings with it inexperience. Given Ti, one has no reason to favor one outward thing over another, meaning Ne. Fi or Fe is the remaining default. If one chooses Ti, Fi is eliminated leaving Fe as the weakest function.

The above is rationalized so see what you can make of it. If I have a point, it is that INTP tendencies are self-reinforcing.

The above represents my circumstances. I was quite skinny as a kid and am thin today. I was alone much of the time. One could ask, why not Fi instead of Ti? Well I found things to speculate ... to think about. If I were feeling oriented I would be driven crazy because of lack of direction. One must have content to feel I suppose. One could argue for imagination to feel about, but I greeted imagination as external and with fear and doubt ... and so turned to thought instead.

All this is speculation so I invite you to contrast your experiences with mine.
 

Chad

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My experience was a bit different.

I am of a husky built and I have always been bigger then average in both height and weight.

However, my conditioning started very young and involved a great deal of child abuse.

Therefore I became detached form people as a self defines mechanism.

I leaned toward Thinking because my emotions were to strong for me to process with out cognitive effort. My thinking processes help me over come my extremely erratic emotions. However, do to the erratic state of my emotions still disconnect myself form them even now as an adult. I have little trust in my emotional state leaving it far underdeveloped.

My slightly intervened nature also comes form being in a large family and not having basic privacy. The only place I was ever alone was in my head.

Otherwise I have had similar experiences.
 

BigApplePi

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My experience was a bit different.

I am of a husky built and I have always been bigger then average in both height and weight.

However, my conditioning started very young and involved a great deal of child abuse.

Therefore I became detached form people as a self defines mechanism.

I leaned toward Thinking because my emotions were to strong for me to process with out cognitive effort. My thinking processes help me over come my extremely erratic emotions. However, do to the erratic state of my emotions still disconnect myself form them even now as an adult. I have little trust in my emotional state leaving it far underdeveloped.

My slightly intervened nature also comes form being in a large family and not having basic privacy. The only place I was ever alone was in my head.

Otherwise I have had similar experiences.
That would promote thinking over feeling. An F person will learn to manipulate with emotion. Apparently if you suffered child abuse (physical?) your being bigger would do you no good. Your abuser would be big enough.
 

Deckard

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@BigApplePi: With regard to your hypothesis about environment (body type, isolation) shaping us into INTPs in childhood, I would suggest that this implies INTP personality traits only start developing relatively late in childhood. Before our environment has given a good shot at conditioning us, our personalities would be more towards xxxx type. But in all my reading and experience interacting with kids, it seems that definitive elements of personality are evident very early, as soon as they begin meaningfully interacting with others socially and with language. To me, that suggests personality is largely determined during the first 2-3 years of development or before. Also if MBTI types were shaped during of one's childhood, there'd be a much more obvious correlation of personality types between parents & children. I really think the diversity described in the MBTI archetypes has to be determined in early development and genetically.
 

Deckard

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Very interesting to see the number of all/most votes. I specifically chose that set of traits to have not too much overlap with the usual archetypal INTP traits.

I had a "mixer" at my new job last night, and actually enjoyed socialising with people I barely knew for a few hours. Didn't feel the need for any social lubricant or to escape and recharge. Maybe it's because they're actually interesting people, I don't know, but I didn't feel drained afterwards. All of that is super weird and unusual for me. I'm usually socially avoidant and would have a very low stamina for social interaction. Especially if there's more than one conversation partner -- that would previously have been information overload and I would be withdrawn and feel paralysed from participating. But it didn't seem to phase me much last night.
 

Starswirl

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  1. Slow to learn physical muscle-memory tasks (e.g. juggling)
    Yes, although I'd call the statement biased as you made the example juggling, a very difficult activity.
  2. You notice others are better than you at picking people out in crowds; for you it's a bit overwhelming, like information overload
    Not necessarily overwhelming; I'm just not good at it.
  3. Sensitivity to bright sunlight
    Maybe? If this is at all correlated with MBTI, wouldn't it be correlated with IN (lesser need for socializing/going out and sensations/being outside, hence the IN going outside less)?
  4. Social anxiety
    Somewhat
  5. Difficulty accessing words you know in conversation & writing; halting speech
    At times, but most everyone experiences this.
  6. Hard to keep up with others in conversation when it comes to creative riffing / off-the-cuff wit
    No, not really. I actually have pretty good wit.
  7. Difficulty maintaining eye contact (i.e. difficulty multitasking between language tasks and face-reading)
    Yes.
  8. Low creative stamina; takes a lot of energy & effort to create
    Depends on the task. However, I'd my creative urges (not necessarily the energy needed to actualize them) are relatively common/strong.
  9. General detachment from the sensory experience; little pleasure stimulated from sight/sound/touch, unless it's unusually engaging.
  10. Chronic muscle tension; difficulty releasing locked muscles
    Somewhat.
  11. Need excessive sleep to feel rested; body clock is often whacked
    "Excessive"? I do, though, need more sleep than most.
  12. (severe) difficulty maintaining attention when not engaged
    Do you mean engaged in the sense of:
    1) Being communicated with directly.
    2) Attentive.
    3) Not interested.

    For #1: No; #2 is a tautology; and for #3, yes, but I also think it's a bit tautological.
  13. You have a general sense/intuition that you're not functioning at capacity or to your potential
    Yes.

Marked "some".
 

BigApplePi

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Deckard. In regard to how INTPs develop I would want to experience them from birth onward but can't do that. I can only propose one possible developement and bypass the others.
With regard to your hypothesis about environment (body type, isolation) shaping us into INTPs in childhood, I would suggest that this implies INTP personality traits only start developing relatively late in childhood.


Before our environment has given a good shot at conditioning us, our personalities would be more towards xxxx type. But in all my reading and experience interacting with kids, it seems that definitive elements of personality are evident very early, as soon as they begin meaningfully interacting with others socially and with language. To me, that suggests personality is largely determined during the first 2-3 years of development or before.
I didn't mean to imply this lateness. I'm willing to propose a quiet baby would interact more inwardly than outwardly right of the bat from birth. This would cause the odds to lean more to INTP immediately during development.


Also if MBTI types were shaped during of one's childhood, there'd be a much more obvious correlation of personality types between parents & children. I really think the diversity described in the MBTI archetypes has to be determined in early development and genetically.
I'm ready to agree. I'd like to look at the details of early childhood because I propose whatever is there is what is built upon compounded. Think of, "As the twig is bent, so grows the tree." An IxTx at one week is already disposed.
 

Deckard

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Deckard. In regard to how INTPs develop I would want to experience them from birth onward but can't do that. I can only propose one possible developement and bypass the others.
I didn't mean to imply this lateness. I'm willing to propose a quiet baby would interact more inwardly than outwardly right of the bat from birth. This would cause the odds to lean more to INTP immediately during development.


I'm ready to agree. I'd like to look at the details of early childhood because I propose whatever is there is what is built upon compounded. Think of, "As the twig is bent, so grows the tree." An IxTx at one week is already disposed.

Gotcha. I think it's intuitively obvious that type preferences compound themselves, particularly in terms of an individual's abilities and how well practiced the weaker functions are. I suppose I'm more interested in the neurological mechanics of what exactly differentiates one type from another, when it happens, and how pliable those differences are. I think my case is suggestive, but is obviously not conclusive and it's just a single anecdotal case. What would be really interesting is if there were other similar cases in the literature, although I haven't come across any.
 

BigApplePi

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I suppose I'm more interested in the neurological mechanics of what exactly differentiates one type from another, ...
That would be worthwhile to discover. But we would have to be careful that such differentiation is due to practice and not to original DNA/genes, etc. We would expect a painter/artist to have their visual areas more developed than average. But how much of that would be due to practice?
 
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