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Not wanting to win/be successful

Niclmaki

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I have done some ruminating and have come to the conclusion that this is not a motivator for me anymore. It was a motivator just a few years ago, but I think it was from wanting to prove something about myself... what that was, I’m not sure. Societal pressure I suppose.*

At first I thought that maybe it was from depression, but I doubt that. I am quite content and happy.

So, I thought about it some more, and talked to family about it. It seems that this may be somewhat of a cultural or familial thing. (My family being Native American). None of us have any real desire to rise above our station. Desiring your bosses job seems like a dick move to everyone I talked to. Finding your niche and sticking with it seems to bring them the most happiness.

Is it a consequence of aging? Or something else? Does anyone else even feel like this?


*At the time, I was taking classes at a community college to work in a daycare. But I was pressured by my teachers / parents / peers to take something harder, so I went to an Ivy League college. Absolutely hated it. Elitism is so painfully obvious it disgusted me. Could not stand it.
 

higs

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I actually think it's pretty normal ? I mean, when you say "finding your niche" I interpret that as finding something you enjoy doing etc, which is ambition it seems to me, if we consider ambition to be simply the desire to realize a set goal for yourself. If you interpret ambition as climbing the social ladder or the hierarchy or whatever, I think it's actually more of a minority of people who really have that. You could say that everyone has ambition, but only some people have elitist ambitions.
 

Serac

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I think age is a factor. One becomes less impressionable, less energetic, more bogged down in the bullshit of life, more influenced by the robotic and luke-warm existence of other people.
 

higs

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Oh good now I'm having an existential crisis on my birthday cheers Serac
 

Serac

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How can a birthday be complete without existential dread :cool:

But not to worry – it's just that the issue needs to be attacked philosophically and scientifically
 

Niclmaki

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If you interpret ambition as climbing the social ladder or the hierarchy or whatever, I think it's actually more of a minority of people who really have that. You could say that everyone has ambition, but only some people have elitist ambitions.

Hmm, I never really made that distinction in my head. They always seemed one and the same to me.

I did get shit for, “lacking ambition” tho. So that may be why.
 

higs

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Yeah idk language is imprecise and stuff amirite
 

Pizzabeak

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Language is precise, it's someone's own inability to comprehend that's at fault, purposefully misconstruing or misunderstanding things on purpose just to provoke a response.
 

computerhxr

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Do you have a Native American philosophy?

You mention Elitism, and not wanting your bosses position. How do these relate to your philosophy?

Another question that comes to mind is, do you see a difference between Elitism and being Elite? Can you be a humble, elite, wise, Chieftain leader?
 

Niclmaki

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Do you have a Native American philosophy?

You mention Elitism, and not wanting your bosses position. How do these relate to your philosophy?

Another question that comes to mind is, do you see a difference between Elitism and being Elite? Can you be a humble, elite, wise, Chieftain leader?
Being in a position of leadership is seen more as a responsibility, not one of power. That’s the main difference I can see. (For Ojibway anyways, another tribe could be very different). My father’s (and other family members on his side) look at serving on council as serious as a prison sentence. “Everyone should put in 2 or so years.” Is a quote I heard, haha.

The current position of “chieftan” (as described by the Indian Act) is seen with mockery. In both senses of the word. It is a sham of our traditional way of choosing chiefs. But we have to live with it because it is the only way this government acknowledges us. Our tradional leaders (both senses of the word again) are either lost to time and we haven’t reformed, or they refuse to integrate with the Indian Act’s “council and chief”. My mother is Mohawk, and they embody that “refusing to integrate” part to the nTH degree.

Philosophy is a tricky thing to nail down. I suppose I do have a mostly Native American one. I could not NOT have one given my upbringing. I can really feel where things clash with the dominant “white culture” though. (I don’t like that term, but that’s the best that comes to mind)

Maybe also a slight dash of Taoism from my schooling days.

I think the problem with elitism literally comes from all the “Trickster” stories we are told in school. Typically a shapeshifter whom thinks he is clever, but is made the fool before the story is over. BECAUSE he thinks himself so clever. Really pounds that humility into you.

A tinge of distate for the elite is most likely just from there being so few of us (natives) that CAN be considered elite. Honestly, the only ones that are universally respected are elders. It does not help that we will pull each other down a lot. “So and so thinks they’re such a big shot now” Hell, I even remember in highschool we’d hide our marks if they were really high.


Good questions. Have more to think about now. Perhaps we as a people are just depressed / traumatized.
 

baccheion

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Maybe low testosterone/dopamine which can also cause depression? Are you physically tired? Worn out? Maybe there isn't anything worth aspiring toward. If so, seek out new projects/interests.
 

computerhxr

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Being in a position of leadership is seen more as a responsibility, not one of power. That’s the main difference I can see. (For Ojibway anyways, another tribe could be very different). My father’s (and other family members on his side) look at serving on council as serious as a prison sentence. “Everyone should put in 2 or so years.” Is a quote I heard, haha.
That is a bleak look at serving on the council. I imagine council as wise elders whom you go to for advice.

Do you live on a reservation?

The current position of “chieftan” (as described by the Indian Act) is seen with mockery. In both senses of the word. It is a sham of our traditional way of choosing chiefs. But we have to live with it because it is the only way this government acknowledges us. Our tradional leaders (both senses of the word again) are either lost to time and we haven’t reformed, or they refuse to integrate with the Indian Act’s “council and chief”. My mother is Mohawk, and they embody that “refusing to integrate” part to the nTH degree.
What is the traditional way of choosing Chiefs?

What are qualities of a good Chief?

Philosophy is a tricky thing to nail down. I suppose I do have a mostly Native American one. I could not NOT have one given my upbringing. I can really feel where things clash with the dominant “white culture” though. (I don’t like that term, but that’s the best that comes to mind)

Maybe also a slight dash of Taoism from my schooling days.
Do you have your own philosophy, about how things should be? What has been lost that is a
important to Native American tradition?

I think the problem with elitism literally comes from all the “Trickster” stories we are told in school. Typically a shapeshifter whom thinks he is clever, but is made the fool before the story is over. BECAUSE he thinks himself so clever. Really pounds that humility into you.
I never heard stories about the Trickster in school. That is an interesting interpretation of elitism. Do you know of any story in particular?

Here's what I've found in my research of the Trickster archetype. The coyote is seen as the Trickster in North Native American myth. It is seen as both the hero and the villain. Tricksters appears during times of crisis to say things that need to be said.

A tinge of distate for the elite is most likely just from there being so few of us (natives) that CAN be considered elite. Honestly, the only ones that are universally respected are elders. It does not help that we will pull each other down a lot. “So and so thinks they’re such a big shot now” Hell, I even remember in highschool we’d hide our marks if they were really high.
Well, the criteria for elite is that there are only a few, otherwise it would be common. Maybe picking on you is a form of respect? Being elite can mean a lot of different things, not just marks in school. Do you sort of feel like people think you're an elitist?

Good questions. Have more to think about now. Perhaps we as a people are just depressed / traumatized.
Yeah, I think you're right. There is a lot of trauma and depression going around.
 

Niclmaki

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All the councilors are essentially just representitives of the biggest families on the reservation. And yeah, I do live on one. Corruption and mishandling of funding is rather rampant. They’re all essentially “elected administrators”. The few honest councillors that try to change things, don’t last long. Either quitting from frustration, being ostracized, or even threatened (not violently, just that their position can be challenged at a federal level for missing meetings. Even if they haven’t)



As I understand it, our elders chose our chiefs. It has erroneously been called hereditary because it was common for the chiefs son to be picked. For obvious reasons - he would have simply had the most experience from spending a lot of time with his father. The highest quality is Truth. (If you look up the Seven Grandfather Teachings it can expand this).



As hippyish as it sounds, I just really advocate love. But with the inclusion of material things. If you really appreciate Stuff, you’ll naturally want to see less of it turned to waste and trash. Truly materialistic. An underlying native philosophy was there there is Spirit in all things, and thus must be respected. As to how things should be organized, I wouldn’t care if the former was observed.



That Trickster archetype seems a little off? At least for the character I remember.

Here is a short story about Nanabush.

He was boasting of his power. So, he challenges the creator to move a mountain. He does his very best and manages to wiggle it forward a little. And as he is looking back to gloat the creator pulls the mountain flying up to his nose and breaks it. So from then on, nanabush was always described as having a bent or crooked nose.



In highschool I’m not too sure why we* were embarrassed by our marks. We wern’t ever picked on for it, just wowed. Excelling and extravagance were rather intertwined for us. It was pointed out to us that it was OK by teachers several times. But this was no longer on the reservation, so it was culturally a different place which we wern’t used to.

*My cousin and I, we’d get pretty equal marks and such

And yeah, I’ve literally been called artistocratic and elitist. By peers, and even elders. Perhaps that’s what broke me into how I am today. It did not help that I was identified as gifted in elementary school, so I was forever branded “that smart kid.”

Sorry, I can’t format too well, I’m on mobile. Thanks for reading.
 

computerhxr

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@Niclmaki

So it's nepotism rather than authority. That is never ideal.

I was always the dumb kid in the group, so my friends always seemed like the elitists. They would talk down to me a lot, ignore me, then assert that their opinions were fact. I believed them instead of trusting my intuition which eventually proved to be right most of the time.

At the same time, I'm the smart kid around everyone else. I don't really talk down to them because I can relate.

I have sort of the same philosophy, but I see waste everywhere. Like, one person will gain a little at a huge cost to many people. Then that person is labelled a "conservative" while creating a net waste far greater than someone who makes no effort to reduce waste. Then, the people who are truly conservative "liberals", their efforts are counterfeit by overconsumption.

Sometimes it is actually more wasteful to recycle, requiring toxic chemicals to break down materials that are less damaging to the environment.

Haha... it's mind-boggling to me.
 

Pizzabeak

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You aren't special, or perfect.
Don't try to pull any of that hippie crap with me, which is a card I already pulled, repeatedly, and years ago. I can see right through your opportunism. You aren't one.
Hashem put the evil inclination in us to show that we need Him. All that depression and emotions you're feeling, are from sadness that you're not enough.
All "Trickster" stories have been known for hundreds of years already, although I'm glad you decided to share your favorite one to relate it to us.
The joke is still on you. There's also the Clever One and the Simple One.
Again from what I noticed, from my experience, people just try to provoke a response because they want to learn. They'll go through any lengths to do so, or at least great lengths. So it's the whole "Lord of the Flies" thing, or "James Moriarty vs Sherlock Holmes".
Things exist just so you could react to it. Angels combat evil. Does evil exist just so it could be driven away, by good?
You suck. Healthy people don't really complain or whine so much, only mentally weak ones do, like you're sounding like. If you ever reproduce, do it with "a girl who isn't as much of a loser as you are" so your efforts don't totally go to waste.
Again, it's "something you said". Most people are sensors, and prefer practical, hard work over theory.
That's just the nature of people.
 

computerhxr

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You aren't special, or perfect.
Don't try to pull any of that hippie crap with me, which is a card I already pulled, repeatedly, and years ago. I can see right through your opportunism. You aren't one.
Who are you referring to? My point was that waste and conservation is a scale, with both sides generating forms of waste. Waste is a product of change, and sometimes regulation creates more waste then it reduces.

Waste management is fascinating and sometimes complex puzzle.

Hippies have their place in society. It's nice to have one wander through your life every now and then.

Hashem put the evil inclination in us to show that we need Him. All that depression and emotions you're feeling, are from sadness that you're not enough.
Not sure what you're saying...

All "Trickster" stories have been known for hundreds of years already, although I'm glad you decided to share your favorite one to relate it to us.

The joke is still on you. There's also the Clever One and the Simple One.
Oh, now I see, you're talking about @Niclmaki. I asked for the story that they were told about the Trickster archetype. I've done some research and the Trickster is a very dynamic character across cultures.

I assume that the "Simple One" is the Fool, and the "Cleaver One" is the Court Jester. I never learned this stuff in school.

Am I either of these Architypes, or both?

Again from what I noticed, from my experience, people just try to provoke a response because they want to learn. They'll go through any lengths to do so, or at least great lengths. So it's the whole "Lord of the Flies" thing, or "James Moriarty vs Sherlock Holmes".
It's a dialogue, or dialectic. The purpose of a dialogue is to learn.

Most people go around asserting their opinions as if they're facts. Rather than having a conversation and learning from one another, they would rather shove it down your throat. Not that I think asserting your opinion is a bad thing, I just think it's a good idea to switch it up and see what you can learn every once in a while.

Everyone has something that you can learn from them.

Things exist just so you could react to it. Angels combat evil. Does evil exist just so it could be driven away, by good?
Is this a rhetorical question? Yes, I do believe that Good is relative to Evil. Without Evil, Good would be null.

Things may exist for other reasons.

You suck. Healthy people don't really complain or whine so much, only mentally weak ones do, like you're sounding like. If you ever reproduce, do it with "a girl who isn't as much of a loser as you are" so your efforts don't totally go to waste.
Again, it's "something you said". Most people are sensors, and prefer practical, hard work over theory.

That's just the nature of people.
You do realize that you're complaining, right? Everything that you just said applies to you.

How is your response going to affect someone who is "unhealthy" or "mentally weak"? Is your attitude going to protect your from being infected?
 

Pizzabeak

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Who are you referring to?
Not to you.

Hashem put the evil inclination in us to show that we need Him. All that depression and emotions you're feeling, are from sadness that you're not enough.
Not sure what you're saying...
Okay.
All "Trickster" stories have been known for hundreds of years already, although I'm glad you decided to share your favorite one to relate it to us.

The joke is still on you. There's also the Clever One and the Simple One.
Oh, now I see, you're talking about @Niclmaki. I asked for the story that they were told about the Trickster archetype. I've done some research and the Trickster is a very dynamic character across cultures.

I assume that the "Simple One" is the Fool, and the "Cleaver One" is the Court Jester. I never learned this stuff in school.

Am I either of these Architypes, or both?
Everything is one. See what you want to see.
Again from what I noticed, from my experience, people just try to provoke a response because they want to learn. They'll go through any lengths to do so, or at least great lengths. So it's the whole "Lord of the Flies" thing, or "James Moriarty vs Sherlock Holmes".
It's a dialogue, or dialectic. The purpose of a dialogue is to learn.

Most people go around asserting their opinions as if they're facts. Rather than having a conversation and learning from one another, they would rather shove it down your throat. Not that I think asserting your opinion is a bad thing, I just think it's a good idea to switch it up and see what you can learn every once in a while.

Everyone has something that you can learn from them.
I agree with the bold, sure. The only ones who can teach me anything, at this point, are specialists. I'm not talking about an echo chamber.

I am not asking for anyone's anything. You can not learn me anything, as mere mortals. In fact, this whole charade has been nothing but amusing.

So yeah, sure, that's the traditional model of how society should act. We're all equal, and can learn from each other.

That has gotten me absolutely nowhere, at all. Why would it be any different now, all of a sudden? No one can tell me anything. The moment you try to act smarter than, not just me but anyone else, or above me in any way, is how I know something is afoot.
Things exist just so you could react to it. Angels combat evil. Does evil exist just so it could be driven away, by good?
Is this a rhetorical question? Yes, I do believe that Good is relative to Evil. Without Evil, Good would be null.

Things may exist for other reasons.
Well, that is the mode in which it all plays out. Why do things exist? Because the universe must be a simulation designed by some entities in order to harvest more data on human emotion. It's a metaphor for saying people try to be skeptic, so they just try to provoke a response. If someone tries to stab you (evil), then you smack their hand away (reaction). Of course, you want to be proactive, to prevent such things from occurring in the first place anyway.
You suck. Healthy people don't really complain or whine so much, only mentally weak ones do, like you're sounding like. If you ever reproduce, do it with "a girl who isn't as much of a loser as you are" so your efforts don't totally go to waste.
Again, it's "something you said". Most people are sensors, and prefer practical, hard work over theory.

That's just the nature of people.
You do realize that you're complaining, right? Everything that you just said applies to you.

How is your response going to affect someone who is "unhealthy" or "mentally weak"? Is your attitude going to protect your from being infected?
And I wasn't complaining. No, I was reporting the facts as they are.
 

moody

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You aren't special, or perfect.
Don't try to pull any of that hippie crap with me, which is a card I already pulled, repeatedly, and years ago. I can see right through your opportunism. You aren't one.
Hashem put the evil inclination in us to show that we need Him. All that depression and emotions you're feeling, are from sadness that you're not enough.
All "Trickster" stories have been known for hundreds of years already, although I'm glad you decided to share your favorite one to relate it to us.
The joke is still on you. There's also the Clever One and the Simple One.
Again from what I noticed, from my experience, people just try to provoke a response because they want to learn. They'll go through any lengths to do so, or at least great lengths. So it's the whole "Lord of the Flies" thing, or "James Moriarty vs Sherlock Holmes".
Things exist just so you could react to it. Angels combat evil. Does evil exist just so it could be driven away, by good?
You suck. Healthy people don't really complain or whine so much, only mentally weak ones do, like you're sounding like. If you ever reproduce, do it with "a girl who isn't as much of a loser as you are" so your efforts don't totally go to waste.
Again, it's "something you said". Most people are sensors, and prefer practical, hard work over theory.
That's just the nature of people.
So....you're.....putting down someone else's cultural beliefs with your OWN religion? Gee, I've never seen that one before. Though you did just say in the middle that people have to PROVOKE responses, so it just seems like you're doing that and projecting at the same time. So. Um, great job. You know how to use the internet.

"Hippie" is a derogatory term that comes from the English word "hip," meaning cool, fashionable and modern, and was first used in reference to black Americans in the late mid 30's to the 50's in reference to their music and style. In the late 60's this term began becoming used by journalists to refer to the people who started the Bohemian era of fashion in San Francisco. The people who opposed the Vietnam war in America marked the first time Americans opposed their governments military actions; most of them dressed "bohemian." Associating "peace and love" with the term "hippie" started with the young bohemian Americans who opposed the war that was really unnecessary for Americans to get drafted and pretty much killed a lot of people for capitalist gains. That's why people make fun of hippies as "peace-loving-tree-hugers." Making fun of those beliefs by throwing around that term really just says more about you.

Native American philosophy is much, much, much older than the beliefs of the "hippies" in America from the late 60's-70s, and yes, it's even older than jazz from the 30's! *gasp* It's pretty pretentious and ignorant to call someone a hippie who 1. didn't preach to you, 2. simply stated their beliefs, and 3. their beliefs come from their culture's philosophy.

And if you really DO believe your post and aren't just trying to provoke what people really think where you retain a safe detached distance....those who actually practice minimalism and non-violence often aren't violent and don't make a lot of trash....it's not a "fact" that every single human secretly wants to kill and destroy. If you do, it's probably because you're culture and/or nation has repressed you for selfish reasons.
 

moody

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@Niclmiki : Feeling kind of voided is a human thing, and the way it manifests and how we perceive it depend on our culture and language. In terms of why or if it's "natural," I do know that people who feel like there isn't anything left in their life aside from what you're doing now tend to get a but depressed and feel hopeless. That's where the "mid-life" crisis comes in.
What to do about it? I mean... I think that there can be a number of things we'd want to do if we never had some sort of notion that it was okay if we did them. Our social culture can ingrain notions about our abilities and what we want that are not always necessarily true to what we would think in different circumstances. Maybe you aren't ambitious because you weren't allowed to be. If this means anything, ambition doesn't have to be about obtaining material wealth or prestige (though "white culture" often makes it out that way), but it can be more of a drive to do something well and share it with others. (Examples: translating, any researching, painting, writing, etc). The better you are at something that resonates with you and the more open you are about it, the more likely it is to resonate with someone else.

I can tell you that when people put down others for wanting to do well, regardless of culture, that's a very common type of projection. I've experience smaller types of "put downs" in different areas, but I've seen exactly what you've said in friends growing who came from underprivileged backgrounds, or friends whose parents didn't obtain high school degrees and didn't speak English very well. I don't necessarily think it's derived directly from beliefs or philosophies, more-so that people tend to used their beliefs or philosophies as justifications for how they feel and act when they cant do anything about it (I mean this universally, not just about what you've said). It says more about the speaker than the person being spoken to.

Of course, that's from the social/environmental standpoint. There could always be something more clinical, like depression. But I'm not a doctor, nor do I know you and your life, so social generalizations is what I got! Maybe just try a small change or new hobby just because you can.
 

Pizzabeak

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Messages
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You aren't special, or perfect.
Don't try to pull any of that hippie crap with me, which is a card I already pulled, repeatedly, and years ago. I can see right through your opportunism. You aren't one.
Hashem put the evil inclination in us to show that we need Him. All that depression and emotions you're feeling, are from sadness that you're not enough.
All "Trickster" stories have been known for hundreds of years already, although I'm glad you decided to share your favorite one to relate it to us.
The joke is still on you. There's also the Clever One and the Simple One.
Again from what I noticed, from my experience, people just try to provoke a response because they want to learn. They'll go through any lengths to do so, or at least great lengths. So it's the whole "Lord of the Flies" thing, or "James Moriarty vs Sherlock Holmes".
Things exist just so you could react to it. Angels combat evil. Does evil exist just so it could be driven away, by good?
You suck. Healthy people don't really complain or whine so much, only mentally weak ones do, like you're sounding like. If you ever reproduce, do it with "a girl who isn't as much of a loser as you are" so your efforts don't totally go to waste.
Again, it's "something you said". Most people are sensors, and prefer practical, hard work over theory.
That's just the nature of people.
So....you're.....putting down someone else's cultural beliefs with your OWN religion? Gee, I've never seen that one before. Though you did just say in the middle that people have to PROVOKE responses, so it just seems like you're doing that and projecting at the same time. So. Um, great job. You know how to use the internet.

"Hippie" is a derogatory term that comes from the English word "hip," meaning cool, fashionable and modern, and was first used in reference to black Americans in the late mid 30's to the 50's in reference to their music and style. In the late 60's this term began becoming used by journalists to refer to the people who started the Bohemian era of fashion in San Francisco. The people who opposed the Vietnam war in America marked the first time Americans opposed their governments military actions; most of them dressed "bohemian." Associating "peace and love" with the term "hippie" started with the young bohemian Americans who opposed the war that was really unnecessary for Americans to get drafted and pretty much killed a lot of people for capitalist gains. That's why people make fun of hippies as "peace-loving-tree-hugers." Making fun of those beliefs by throwing around that term really just says more about you.

Native American philosophy is much, much, much older than the beliefs of the "hippies" in America from the late 60's-70s, and yes, it's even older than jazz from the 30's! *gasp* It's pretty pretentious and ignorant to call someone a hippie who 1. didn't preach to you, 2. simply stated their beliefs, and 3. their beliefs come from their culture's philosophy.

And if you really DO believe your post and aren't just trying to provoke what people really think where you retain a safe detached distance....those who actually practice minimalism and non-violence often aren't violent and don't make a lot of trash....it's not a "fact" that every single human secretly wants to kill and destroy. If you do, it's probably because you're culture and/or nation has repressed you for selfish reasons.
I am a native, and a hippie due to my immersion in the actual culture. I don't know who Niclmaki is, never heard of him. He's more a poser than a hippie, I am almost sorry to say. I was born into hippie culture, molded by it. You, have only adopted it as a trend, newly found, for your last hope. In death you may find the answers you seek.
I'll respond more to this when I find some time.
And it's actually Beat. The Beats were before the hippies, in the 40's and 50's. Hipster more so refers to what you're talking about, before yellow journalism coined the term hippie, around the 60's. So no, I'll be honest, I'm the one who felt provoked, and, maybe I was just reading too much into it. I responded. I wasn't aiming to provoke anything, besides calming people down. I can't be certain why someone would be angry in that way in the first place.

And I do have some Native in me, so wait, if you really want to turn this into a lets see who can be the most Native, then that's your game. So it isn't about that either. Belief is the death of intelligence, and all philosophy is heresy for even questioning the existence of the Lord in the first place. Merely an attempt at trying to view the world from a pedestal. What did you think I was referring to in the first place anyway? My philosophy is older than any human society, civilization, tribe, or community. Playing victim, only gets you so far.

He referred to himself as a hippie:
As hippyish as it sounds, I just really advocate love. But with the inclusion of material things. If you really appreciate Stuff, you’ll naturally want to see less of it turned to waste and trash. Truly materialistic. An underlying native philosophy was there there is Spirit in all things, and thus must be respected. As to how things should be organized, I wouldn’t care if the former was observed.
I can't take someone serious whose ego had the nerve to refer to his or her self as a flower child. Said ego only deserves to be destroyed for such drivel. Culture isn't your friend. Trying to attach such familiarity to your persona... Only depresses me.
 

onesteptwostep

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:D
 

Niclmaki

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You aren't special, or perfect.
Don't try to pull any of that hippie crap with me, which is a card I already pulled, repeatedly, and years ago. I can see right through your opportunism. You aren't one.
Hashem put the evil inclination in us to show that we need Him. All that depression and emotions you're feeling, are from sadness that you're not enough.
All "Trickster" stories have been known for hundreds of years already, although I'm glad you decided to share your favorite one to relate it to us.
The joke is still on you. There's also the Clever One and the Simple One.
Again from what I noticed, from my experience, people just try to provoke a response because they want to learn. They'll go through any lengths to do so, or at least great lengths. So it's the whole "Lord of the Flies" thing, or "James Moriarty vs Sherlock Holmes".
Things exist just so you could react to it. Angels combat evil. Does evil exist just so it could be driven away, by good?
You suck. Healthy people don't really complain or whine so much, only mentally weak ones do, like you're sounding like. If you ever reproduce, do it with "a girl who isn't as much of a loser as you are" so your efforts don't totally go to waste.
Again, it's "something you said". Most people are sensors, and prefer practical, hard work over theory.
That's just the nature of people.
If you have enemies, they do make very good motivators. Tackling world problems was never in my agenda though. I’m never going to go out and look for wrongs to right. (Excellent way to waste excess energy if you have it though) I’ve got no crusade in mind, but I will /usually/ be kind and help out who/what I can wherever I am at the time.

Also, I’ve never revealed what my underlying philosophy is, and only did because I was asked. I’m not looking to start a cult lol. (I’m not even totally sure if that IS my underlying philosophy, I haven’t thought very deeply or long about it yet, relatively to other things)

Thanks for the response though. My ability to argue with myself hasn’t been too good lately.
 

Niclmaki

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Of course, that's from the social/environmental standpoint. There could always be something more clinical, like depression. But I'm not a doctor, nor do I know you and your life, so social generalizations is what I got! Maybe just try a small change or new hobby just because you can.
Yeah, video-games were a good “surrogate” in place of social ambitions for a long time. I have a real knack for them, and excelled. Like the 95th percentile+. I just... don’t care if I do well in them any more (to the chagrin of teammates). I know depression can be characterized by not caring about hobbies you once loved, so I kept that in mind. Recently I have started doing puzzles instead. I’m having a good time with that. It’s like my passion for competition fell off the face of the earth.

“Why am I doing this? What do I have to prove? I’m just here to have fun”

So often in games winning = fun for everyone, but me lol. Perhaps that’s why I felt pushed away.

Sorry for the ramble, you’re kinda getting a play-by-play of my thoughts.
 

Pizzabeak

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You aren't special, or perfect.
Don't try to pull any of that hippie crap with me, which is a card I already pulled, repeatedly, and years ago. I can see right through your opportunism. You aren't one.
Hashem put the evil inclination in us to show that we need Him. All that depression and emotions you're feeling, are from sadness that you're not enough.
All "Trickster" stories have been known for hundreds of years already, although I'm glad you decided to share your favorite one to relate it to us.
The joke is still on you. There's also the Clever One and the Simple One.
Again from what I noticed, from my experience, people just try to provoke a response because they want to learn. They'll go through any lengths to do so, or at least great lengths. So it's the whole "Lord of the Flies" thing, or "James Moriarty vs Sherlock Holmes".
Things exist just so you could react to it. Angels combat evil. Does evil exist just so it could be driven away, by good?
You suck. Healthy people don't really complain or whine so much, only mentally weak ones do, like you're sounding like. If you ever reproduce, do it with "a girl who isn't as much of a loser as you are" so your efforts don't totally go to waste.
Again, it's "something you said". Most people are sensors, and prefer practical, hard work over theory.
That's just the nature of people.
If you have enemies, they do make very good motivators. Tackling world problems was never in my agenda though. I’m never going to go out and look for wrongs to right. (Excellent way to waste excess energy if you have it though) I’ve got no crusade in mind, but I will /usually/ be kind and help out who/what I can wherever I am at the time.

Also, I’ve never revealed what my underlying philosophy is, and only did because I was asked. I’m not looking to start a cult lol. (I’m not even totally sure if that IS my underlying philosophy, I haven’t thought very deeply or long about it yet, relatively to other things)

Thanks for the response though. My ability to argue with myself hasn’t been too good lately.
Keep your friends close and enemies closer? Nonetheless, your sentiments - that's what they all say.:smirk:
 

moody

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@Pizzabeak Sorry if my dates were off-- I know who the Beats are, though I guess them being the first slipped my mind and I only though about their fashion. They DID help to polarize bohemian fashion. But now I question myself once more. Thank you for the correction! (But i DID thing the literal word arose in the late 30's initially due to the jive era....? Guess I'll have to look it up sometime). I'm sorry for offending you, wasn't entirely my intention; it was more to get more out of you by being aggressive. Guess it was too much. Sorry! The last thing I wanted to do was turn into Facebook. I shutter. (oh jeez, you were trying to calm down the topic? It's funny, to me that actually seemed to most riling. I must have misread your tone--I apologize). I don't call myself a flower child or hyppie, though. I'm just your typical non-smart-ass.
 

moody

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@Niclmaki

Whatever floats your boat. Everyone's different. I don't mean that in an "everyone is a special little snow-flake" type of way, but in that no one can tell you how to solve you. A lot of times what people say are reflections of how they've experienced the world, and a tiny bit of trying to answer your question based off what they know of you and the context you've given. Like I'm doing right now! I lack enough knowledge to really respond to you with what could actually help, as do most anonymous people, so best thing I can say is try things and keep what you think versus what others do into perspective.
*dude, you are NOT rambling. It's takes me an hour to get to my point in actual conversations, which most people have cut off long before then. Do you SEE the length of these posts were people are only talking about what they think? Don't worry about it!
 

Serac

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Conclusively... the problem here is confusing success with elitism.

Being a useless slug is not the only alternative to climbing the corporate ladder. I would also say one should be careful about this "whatever floats your boat" stuff. I've seen a lot of people in my life who just fade away into nothingness because they are not able to find their passion. They don't understand that creating a passion in the first place is a proactive endeavor. It requires hard work and self-discipline.
 

Niclmaki

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Conclusively... the problem here is confusing success with elitism.

Being a useless slug is not the only alternative to climbing the corporate ladder. I would also say one should be careful about this "whatever floats your boat" stuff. I've seen a lot of people in my life who just fade away into nothingness because they are not able to find their passion. They don't understand that creating a passion in the first place is a proactive endeavor. It requires hard work and self-discipline.
My passions were teaching young children, and studying history, and philosophy. I pursued the first by working in a daycare. The sexism and pressure from peers to “do something harder” made me go back to school for the other two. I quit after a year. If I had stuck with it, I would have had an insurmountable debt (not to mention the environment itself at an ivy league college was insufferable to me).

Even the guidance counselor agreed that it was a wise choice to quit. Society isn’t going to reward you if your passion is in philosophy and history. (I don’t think it should be under any obligation to either).

Maybe what I had wasn’t true passion though. And if I did have it, I would have stuck with them.

My passing interest in IT seems to be the only thing stopping me from being a “useless slug”. I’m not exactly passionate about it, but you reckon it could become one?
 

onesteptwostep

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If you took the philosophy/history tech and maybe taken something like sociology you might have been able to work in the government. What in philosophy and history did you pursue?
 

Niclmaki

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If you took the philosophy/history tech and maybe taken something like sociology you might have been able to work in the government. What in philosophy and history did you pursue?
It was only first year classes, so they were quite generalized. The history one was “History since 1900 to 2000”. And the philosophy one was “Evolution of Western Philosophy (starting with the presocratics)” and “Modern philosophical problems”.

The history class was very brief over most topics. My specific interest is WW2 and the cold war that followed. How come a second world war happened so swiftly? How did this lead into the cold war? What were the views of the times during it all (from as many as possible perspectives)?

These questions I have studied myself from documentaries / lectures. Even just askimg old people questions* lol.

The history of western philosophy was a very interesting class because the instructor always referenced other famous philosophers that were not Western. However the “Modern Philosophical Problems” one was terrible. They’d teach a view, disprove it with another. Then ask you to write an essay about YOUR views. You simply had to regurgitate the view that was given to you as ‘correct’ to get top marks. No deviating or original thought allowed.

The only class I took similar to sociology was psychology. It seems to be fundamentally flawed to me though. There’s very very little in the way of positive psychology. They’ve just got that huge ass DSMR(sp?) book to diagnose everyone with something. They skirt around ever trying to define what is normal - just look how well IQ was recieved(don’t really blame them, but it ought to be attempted).

I can’t imagine what position in government would be wanting of such a person?


*My favourite respones were from Native WW2 vets. The history books like to point out how natives patriotically signed up for the war more per capita than any other group. Saying “Look how much they love this country and sense of duty they have”. The main reason for joining I found was, “It was so boring on the reservation, there was nothing to do here”.
 

Serac

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Conclusively... the problem here is confusing success with elitism.

Being a useless slug is not the only alternative to climbing the corporate ladder. I would also say one should be careful about this "whatever floats your boat" stuff. I've seen a lot of people in my life who just fade away into nothingness because they are not able to find their passion. They don't understand that creating a passion in the first place is a proactive endeavor. It requires hard work and self-discipline.
My passions were teaching young children, and studying history, and philosophy. I pursued the first by working in a daycare. The sexism and pressure from peers to “do something harder” made me go back to school for the other two. I quit after a year. If I had stuck with it, I would have had an insurmountable debt (not to mention the environment itself at an ivy league college was insufferable to me).

Even the guidance counselor agreed that it was a wise choice to quit. Society isn’t going to reward you if your passion is in philosophy and history. (I don’t think it should be under any obligation to either).

Maybe what I had wasn’t true passion though. And if I did have it, I would have stuck with them.

My passing interest in IT seems to be the only thing stopping me from being a “useless slug”. I’m not exactly passionate about it, but you reckon it could become one?
If you have passion for teaching young children, what does it matter what your peers think? Are you looking for your own passion or something to please other people?

If you have a passion for philosophy and history, why do you need a degree in it or get a job working with it? If you really have a passion for it, you can just acquire that knowledge on your own. If you're interested in philosophy as a craft, the last thing you want to do is to spend your life in academia. In that case, find a path where you do things in the real world and where philosophical knowledge matters.

I have passions myself which no one is rewarding me for, but which I nevertheless spend most of my time and energy on. Work is my hobby.

I also think that a passion for a subject has to do with the meaning you ascribe to it – which ultimately depends on what exactly you do with the subject. For example I personally would see a meaning in IT if I were to start a company based on some cool idea, but would not if I had be a code monkey for some large corporation.
 

onesteptwostep

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@Niclmaki

I see, so you weren't exactly hooked at first on the subjects they provided you with. I'm guessing the problem for you is whether to luck it out and see if the costly tuition would provide more of a return in the future, or just to forgo it and do something else instead.

My advise is just take a semester or even a year off and take a part time job somewhere. Learn about life, get a job and meet new people and so on. How does that sound? I know a lot of kids in college in Korea that take a semester off just to have mental breathing time. They usually come back with a motivation or some goal that they want to accomplish. Perhaps that could be a way of recourse for you. If money is a problem for you going to the army.. well according to your location you're Canadian? I was gonna suggest going into the military for a G.I. Bill but I guess that isn't an option.

Afaik psychology these days is more analytic rather than consolatory, which is why the DSM-5 might have been a turn off for you- but what I meant by sociology is something like criminology or something like politics, where you can be an activist and carry on or advance ideas which are handed down to us through classical liberalism. Criminology would be you working at a social welfare organization, either for an NGO or the government. Oh and there's plenty of government jobs.. I mean Canada is huge so I guessing being a ranger is a thing there. If you want to earn a shite ton of money you could also study chemical engineering and do petrochemicals (working with oil). I know a friend of mine who double majored in economics and petroengineering and is managing finances for a major petroleum company.

I mean there's a bunch of options out there- personally I think you just need time off to relax and enjoy yourself a bit, then you'll start seeing and hearing things from people which then might help you navigate your career or general line of work.

If you went to an Ivy, I'm guessing you went to somewhere like Cornell? Ivies are hella expensive..
 

Niclmaki

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@onesteptwostep
I went to McMaster - they called themselves Ivy League. We just call them Universities in Canada. Probably not the best choice, as I only chose them out of proximity. They specialize in teaching medical care.

I’ve been out for nearly 5 years now. Life has been fine. I did move back with my dad right away though. Living alone is hella expensive. I was ashamed for a time, but not 2 generations ago it was commonplace for us(natives). It was normal for multiple generations to live in one household. They genuinely seem quite happy to have me around as I can help take care of my younger siblings. Especially now that they divorced. There are a lot of us, and a big age gap - I’m the oldest.

Also, doh. I always get psychotherapy and psychology mixed up.

I’m sure I’d see and hear A LOT more opportunities for careers if I didn’t live on a reservation. It’s just gas statioms and smokeshops galore here. Our council did provide archeological training to have band members oversee worksites for a mighty pay. But obviously since it was council led, nepotism won out. Only family members were picked to do the actual work. Although they claimed to have called everyone eligble on the list and it just happened that their relatives were the only ones that responded. -Sorry, minirant-



@Serac

The other people were speaking a lot of sense though. If I wanted to try my hand at harder subjects I could not delay. My reservation gives huge priority of financial aid to students straight out of highschool.

It also wears on you after getting “the talk” repeatedly. Perhaps if I had more resolve and stuck with it, they would have left me alone eventually. However, I also couldn’t stand working with 100% women coworkers (maybe I’m the sexist one after all lol).

And yeah, I still study a lot on my own. Learning about the things I care about is its own vitalizing reward.
 

onesteptwostep

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@Niclmaki

Oh, I thought you were some 19 year old some with premature midlife-crisis. Okay, since you've wrote more about yourself I'm getting a hang of your situation more.

So generally you're not satisfied with the life you're having right? If you've been out 5 years and cooped up in that place, maybe traveling might be a thing? With your level of understanding of the world you should be trying to live in a city... or is that something that's look down upon? I'm not sure what kind of lifestyle you're trying to envision for yourself.

Sucks that you got the short end of the stick on that archaeology job. If you want to move out maybe ask your parents to hook you up yourself to a known relative in the city? Or something like finding roommates for you to live in- 5 tenants living in a huge house or something like that- I'm not too familiar with the real estate in Canada so..
 

moody

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@Niclmaki I think I have a better idea now with the information you added about your academic background and current situation. It sounds like everything you wanted to do career wise sputtered, coughed and died for one reason or another, so you never really got to cultivate what you’d want to do or be in life before you went back home to regroup (correct me if I’m wrong, don’t mean to be presumptuous). I hate to sound too teen- angsty, but I do think sometimes it’s really easy to get depressed when everything’s great but you’re lacking the “you” in your life. Both serac and onesteptwostep seemed to have pretty good advice about different ways to get over that sort of hump. Sometimes people don’t realize how much something is or was bothering them until they go somewhere new by themselves. Finding a job that you qualify for and are interesting in could help, and roomates can be easy to find if you look in the right places. I know a couple people who sold all their things just decided to move without having a job yet or place to live, because if they tried to plan it they would get cold feet. They’re all pretty content with their lives right now.

*I’m sorry about your experience with philosophy; I never took a philosophy course because most friends in college that DID take one had a similar experience to yours. Btw, video game companies like to hire philosophers in the US....might way to look into that....it’s not a totally useless degree.
 

Pizzabeak

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The Trickster theme was always lame, for whichever example of someone you use as its model in your group of people you know. It's similar to the "Coyote" or Native American/Mexican thing. They both have similar traditions and tales or beliefs and interpretations. It isn't so much a "white man" taking the native's land by invasion or erasing history, whatever interpretation and data you want to use. It's a pretty good name game or reference key to see how many you can get, but you usually can't get them all. It isn't pertinent to insofar as it being challenges, so why not know everything in depth? In fact, it's "Adam naming the animals" in the Garden of Eden. The snake was always supposed to be a special one and represent a number of things.

There are some pretty good stories of anything, your life is like one while you're living it. It is mostly just a coping strategy for how depressed someone is so they need to rely on it for aid as a cry for pity. It's simple. It was always a joke. God and His forces are the real ones running things, so the joke is always on the person. There's no point trying to be one, or anything else like that. Loki is another good example of one. You don't need a philosophy degree to be a philosopher, doesn't make you any less credible than any other person. It's only a good one to have as far as its job prospects, it's more valuable now than it was a few years ago to start getting more in depth to it, the only way of that being obtaining a degree and credentials in its studies.
 

Polaris

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I think I would have gone back to where I started, or perhaps tried doing a bachelor of teaching (primary) online. If people were that resistant to my life goals, I would have just gotten more rebellious (which is basically what I did). But yeah, maybe I have no idea what cultural pressure means in your world. It sounds like a significant challenge.
 

Niclmaki

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I think I would have gone back to where I started, or perhaps tried doing a bachelor of teaching (primary) online. If people were that resistant to my life goals, I would have just gotten more rebellious (which is basically what I did). But yeah, maybe I have no idea what cultural pressure means in your world. It sounds like a significant challenge.
Yeah, I wasn’t particularly looking for advice when I started this thread. But I am feeling a bit of a fire burning now to go for teaching again. I’m thinking moreso gradeschool as my coworkers are less likely to be strictly female lol.


My original intention of creating this thread was to see if settling contentedly could be seen as “normal” or “ok”.

Western culture really loves holding the individual above all else. I don’t feel sad, or stuck in a rut because MY plans never worked out.

Native culture (at least the one I grew up in) really expects you to look after your family and the land you are from. This is likely why I don’t really want to leave my reservation. It is a big part of my identity.

I grew up with both, so they are both a part of me. So, I suppose I’m just stuck trying to please both.

Mushroom guy says culture is not your friend, which is true. But you’ve still got to live in it lol.
 
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