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PoLR and why you might be INTJ

Kormak

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e_e where do I start? I saw this terrible thread here where ppl were refering to Fe as PoLR.. which has annoyed me deeply..

Disclaimer: I have looked into both typology systems for over a decade, analized both systems, so I know my shit and won't accept any criticism on this matter, just so we are clear. Your opinion on the subject does not concern me. With this post I'm setting thre record straight in an attempt to contribute something valuable to the forum. Now, to the task at hand...

A lot if "INTPs" have this distaste for Fe, which is off considering Fe is a conscious function that is complementary to the INTP's primary function Ti. It is why your Function stack is Ti Ne Si Fe. You are supposed to respond well to Fe, because it mobalizes you. INTJs on the other hand have a preference for Fi and Se mobalizes them. In MBTI its very common to see INTJs mistype as INTP due to the emphasis on easy to sell simplified dichotomies, such as J-P.

Description of the most vulnerable function aka the point of least resistance or PoLR - is a painful or sensitive function. The element in this function creates a feeling of frustration and inadequacy. A person does not understand the importance of this element entirely, and it can easily lead to painful consequences if not adequately considered. To directly engage this function creates feelings of insecurity and distress. It is quite literally your point of least resistance, your kryptonite.

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Your first 4 functions are coscious functions. Two of these are strong and 2 are weak and complementary. The other 4 functions are subconscious and similarly 2 are strong and 2 are weak and complementary. Subnconscious functions are not valued.

The PoLR of INTP is Se - aka extroverted sensing , your 10 yo Si's even shittier version
The PoLR of INTJ is Fe - aka extroverted feeling, your 10 yo Fi's even shittier version

A note on Se in socionics. Since its a percieving function that deals with external physical environment the focus is on how having it as a preference impacts the individual psychologically, which is why you'll hear stuff like " Se includes the ability to know how much power, force, or influence is latent or required. Types that value Se are much more comfortable with direct behavior aimed at making an immediate impact. " e_e like gymnastics, riding a motorbike, hand to hand combat, being physically intimidating & commanding. It differs from MBTI descriptions, but is esentially the same.

Se PoLR for INTP - The individual tends to overreact to aggressive or confrontational behavior, taking it as a personal threat when it may only be a knee-jerk reaction or the result of a bad mood. He tends to avoid intruding on others' space or engaging in behavior that may be perceived as coercive, and tries hard to handle his needs by being disciplined and well-prepared himself - rather than relying on others to do things for him. If these strategies fail, his efforts at dealing with the resulting conflict make him look actively pushy in a way that appears awkward and unnatural to others. This opens him up to painful criticism and feelings of weakness and helplessness.

He is able to moralize and instruct others about what they should do and why, but he is not prepared for others' active resistance or refusal to do as he says. In his mind, this would require him to put aside reason and good feelings and simply make the other person do what is necessary. This is extremely difficult, if not impossible, for him to do.

You are basically Bruce Banner and the Hulk in one. The ketchup principle applies here... either nothing comes out or ketchup spills all over the place.

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Fe PoLR for INTJ - The individual tries hard to never let himself "come apart at the seams" emotionally or even let out strong feelings publicly, because displays of passion do not come naturally and make him feel self-consciousness and vulnerable to painful criticism. This makes the individual generally seem emotionally neutral and politely indifferent to excitement and agitation around him. The individual deeply dislikes attempts by others to get him to "cheer up" or "join the fun", especially in the context of group activities with loud emotional expression. The individual is often unconfident and uneasy in social settings, especially those in which the expectation is to abide by social conventions that he has little connection to such as tribesmanship or purposeless joviality.

INTJ tend to regard the development of trust with others with significant anxiety, fearing that their inner world or antisocial tendencies will be unfavorably looked upon by others, and that most of the good will and friendliness they see in others is a pretense of social interaction rather than an expression of genuine emotional reactions. Often they eschew many social situations and neglect emotional association with groups, instead seeking deep emotional connections with individuals. (Fi preference)

I think Fe PolR is kinda self explanatory:

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To contrast the above PolR functions, I will now describe INTP's Fe and INTJ's Se

INTP's Fe -
INTPs are usually lacking in outward emotional energy. They may typically seem stiff, cold, rational, unresponsive to emotional concerns, and overly formal in social settings. INTPs may feel uneasy and insecure about their adaptability to social situations. They appreciate the interactive efforts of others to make them feel comfortable, at ease, and a part of the group. They tend to liven up in situations of amusement and conviviality. In situations where they feel comfortable and unconditionally accepted, they may drop their tendency towards aloofness and engage in uncharacteristic silliness. <== INTPs in contrast to INTJs apreciate Fe a LOT and are in fact mobalized by it.

INTPs may be highly sensitive to the signs of emotional approval that they receive from others. They may be highly appreciative of displays of emotional warmth and friendliness. They may find normative emotional expectations placed on them to be stifling, and tend to prefer nonjudgmental environments without character scrutiny. Additionally, for fear of emotional reprisal, LIIs often tend to be rather noncritical of others' actions.

INTJ's Se - INTJs are often characterized by their inertia. If left to their own devices, they may choose to do relatively little to interact with the outside world. When they do interact with the outside world, INTJs often find their activities to be empty and unfulfilling. To INTJs, life is often characterized by periods of stimulation. For the INTJ, however, true stimulation is often spontaneous, and interludes between periods of stimulation are often characterized by tedium, inertia, and apathy. They are often not very adept at finding new areas of interest, and may seek to continue to reproduce past experiences instead of moving on to new things. In order to break out of this cycle, they require an outside stimulus of spontaneity and activity. With such a degree of spontaneity introduced into their lives, the tedium and perceived meaninglessness is replaced by a constant state of activity in which the INTJ can experience new things and escape from the confines of his own mind. <== INTJs are energised by Se.
 

Kormak

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In my case I kinda suck at physically navigating my environment (fuck riding motorcicles... yes I actually hate driving cars too..dancing?.. embarasing), may become oblivious to surrounding activity and I'm absolutely incapable of effectively getting ppl to do as I say aka being commanding. In fact its the last thing I try to do, very live and let live. If ppl aren't motivated by themselves to do something or go somewhere I consider it a waste or an affront to even try. Before anything else I'll try reason & diplomacy. Consequently I resent ppl who are pushy about me becoming active, going out and doing stuff, its annoying and when ppl get commanding I feel like they are crusing me like a piece of paper, to which the response is yet again appeal to reason and diplomacy. When all this sit fails I will turn quickly agressive & even violent.. which is the only real way I can use Se.... like a fucking blunt weapon... aka the clumsy and regrettable hulkout.

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e_e in terms of Fe... yes I'm awkward and fret a lot in social situations, mostly because I care a lot about other ppl liking me and can be hyper aware of the emotional atmosphere. If i upset someone its usually intentional, I'll stop talking befor I ever unintentionally annoy or upset anyone. For this reason I absolutely dislike drama and disharmony, but at the same time enjoy ppl who are very adept at Fe, ppl who can mold the emotional atmosphere at will are great imo... especially because I suck balls at it, but rely on it. In my small group of friends I usually am quite talkative and jovial... even silly, because it feels safe and they accept me. Well at least until I run low on batteries.

More often than not strangers seem to enjoy my company, because I tend to be relaxed, informal and easy to approach with a probability that I'll open up as i get more and more comfortable to do so.


e_e pretty much a fuken MBTI INTP & Socionics INTj
 

Kormak

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^^ if you want to know why this happens it's because an INTP's aux function is Ne (the opposite of Se) and the type's approach to generating information for Ti to process differs vastly from an INTJs Ni approach aided by Se. INFPs, for this reason, are also Se PolR.

An example is INTP's fear of failure. Before I get on a motorbike my mind will go bananas with N x Infinite possible Se related fails and my Ti will begin to heavily rationalize why I should just leave it. Its worse if I (my Si) have access to a prior negative experience, especially due to Si's preference for comfort.

INTJs, however, tend to have Ni tunnel vision which isolates their mind from the external environment. They need someone with good use of Se (someone physically active and "commanding") to shake up their zen and get them going / active. They do not appreciate Fe due to Te aux preference. ISTJs are like this as well in terms of Fe PolR.

In the case of an INTP this is a bad idea due to how the Ne-Ti -Si feedback loop works. Your Si preference will counter the external Se related "get going" by demanding comfort and Ne-Ti will rationalize it away. In contrast, an INTJ will appreciate Se and just roll with it to escape their head. They themselves, however, suck at providing good external sensory input and may fall into bad habits like drinking, drugs.
 

Polaris

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^^ if you want to know why this happens it's because an INTP's aux function is Ne (the opposite of Se) and the type's approach to generating information for Ti to process differs vastly from an INTJs Ni approach aided by Se. INFPs, for this reason, are also Se PolR.

An example is INTP's fear of failure. Before I get on a motorbike my mind will go bananas with N x Infinite possible Se related fails and my Ti will begin to heavily rationalize why I should just leave it. Its worse if I (my Si) have access to a prior negative experience, especially due to Si's preference for comfort.

INTJs, however, tend to have Ni tunnel vision which isolates their mind from the external environment. They need someone with good use of Se (someone "commanding") to shake up their zen and get them going / active. They do not appreciate Fe due to Te aux preference. ISTJs are like this as well.

In the case of an INTP this is a bad idea due to how the Ne-Ti -Si feedback loop works. Your Si preference will counter the external Se related "get going" by demanding comfort and Ne-Ti will rationalize it away.

Hmm, thanks for all that, but I don't really sure how much you can determine type based on behaviour? To some extent, yes, but I think it's very easy to just jump into conclusions. It also depends on conditioning. Of course, you would be well aware of this already - you seem well studied.

In my case, I have a very 'assertive' way of thinking but it doesn't manifest in my behaviour at all, and I guess this would just strengthen your argument. I guess my surroundings are filled with domineering types, which means I tend to fade into the background - but I get very frustrated with this when I can clearly see where everything goes wrong all the time but nobody is prepared to address the elephant in the room.

I guess this comes down to ego. Of course I am not ego-free, I mean, we need a healthy level of egoism so that we don't become doormats. However, even if I was right (not saying I always am right, but there isn't even room for discussion here) they would find a way to undermine my argument because they don't want to or are unable to employ a nuanced way of thinking -- or if they feel threatened, simply brush me off by using condescension. But as this job doesn't mean much to me, I'm like meh.

In my other work environment, I am encouraged to bring ideas forth, so here I am more assertive and driven because my knowledge base is more specialised here. People in my other work would probably not recognise me.

I often feel torn between these two roles, as if I'm unsure which one I really am. But I have realised I am both. I am assertive, or not, depending on the situation. I am empathetic or not, depending on the situation. I am flexible or not, depending on the situation. I adapt to each and every situation, and that is my modus operandi for as long as I can remember. But doesn't everyone do this to some extent? How would I be the best judge in determining whether I do this more than others? I can't read minds, so who knows what actually goes on in their heads.

So now you are going to say this is typical chameleon behaviour (Fe?), but I actually understand Fi just as much, and can relate to it as much. As far as preferences, I am not sure anymore which one I prefer, and whether Fe is something that's been hammered into me. The only thing I'm sure about is that I tend to have very divergent thinking - I'm the typical "scatterbrain" jumping from one idea to the next in seemingly random fashion. People at my primary job find this very difficult to relate to, whereas in my other work, people appreciate it and can follow me easily. I have found I relate to ENTP descriptions, but it really depends on who has written it. I mean, humans wrote history, they invented the legal system, and we follow human philosophies and morals - which humans should we listen to?

I have found that most people, not excluding myself, tend not to go with what is the common perception of rational, but with whatever feels more familiar or comfortable to them which, in some cases could be the "rational" way. People also forget that feelings are rational - they are there to protect us, and help us make decisions. I guess it comes down to how much emphasis you put on feeling, how much you should put on feeling, depending on context (not when your finger is resting on the red button) and how much you are able to empathise with yourself/others. People who have no empathy towards themselves also tend not to empathise with others because they have not experienced empathy. So we choose philosophers, politics or whatever fits in with our current world view. As I'm aware that I do this, I try to "snap" out of it because I don't want to become one of these cranky types completely stuck in my ways. This means I often find myself debating internally, somtimes until I have no answer. Sometimes, I have to go with what "feels" right, as a last resort.

Which means I often do not end up saying anything. This combination of assertiveness vs. self-questioning could potentially be harmful in the long run. Cognitive dissonance and all that. At the same time, I'm aware that most people do not engage in some healthy level of self-scrutiny, so what's the point of driving the discussion forward if other people are not prepared to take a long hard look at their own argument?

I think I have worked out my own philosophical and moral framework over the years. I have mainly relied on my own "field work" for this purpose, with sometimes more or less regretful results. No, I haven't committed crimes but if the situation was pressing enough, I probably would be more prone than others to bend the rules, depending on the rules. I have great respect for and a keen interest in the legal system which incidentally, has also brought me into trouble. To the point where I no longer knew who were my real friends or who to trust. I have had to make the choice of potentially sacrificing friendships and upsetting a bunch of people for the sake of getting the facts right, and have chosen facts. That sounds like Te/Ni, right?

But wouldn't everyone do this? I don't know. I feel torn between types and have realised I emulate type depending on context. Which can be exhausting depending on what role I'm playing. I'm not really sure what my true "ground state" is because I have such a wide field of interests. I mean, if it was up to me, I'd be working from home all day, analysing and researching all kinds of topics and coming up with new theories. Or I'd be painting, composing music, designing a microecological community or writing a novel.

Or I'd be trying to do them all while holding a "normal" job and burning the candle at both ends...

Edit: ugh, super long post. There are many things in my own post I'm actually not happy with with but I'm tired now. I'll be back later maybe.
 

Kormak

Edgelord extraordinaire..
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Hmm, thanks for all that, but I don't really sure how much you can determine type based on behaviour? To some extent, yes, but I think it's very easy to just jump into conclusions. It also depends on conditioning. Of course, you would be well aware of this already - you seem well studied.
Yes, you are right, because only we know the underlying reasons as to why we behave the way we do. Sometimes even we can be internally unaware. Typing is a tricky business.

In my case, I have a very 'assertive' way of thinking but it doesn't manifest in my behaviour at all, and I guess this would just strengthen your argument. I guess my surroundings are filled with domineering types, which means I tend to fade into the background - but I get very frustrated with this when I can clearly see where everything goes wrong all the time but nobody is prepared to address the elephant in the room.
The underlined is the same reason I started this thread. INTPs have inferior Fe, we don't like messing with the emotional atmosphere (upsetting ppl) so often things go unsaid. This is a persistent pattern. Te doms and aux ppl don't care about Fe tho, so you speaking up with relative confidence won't perturb them.

I guess this comes down to ego. Of course I am not ego-free, I mean, we need a healthy level of egoism so that we don't become doormats. However, even if I was right (not saying I always am right, but there isn't even room for discussion here) they would find a way to undermine my argument because they don't want to or are unable to employ a nuanced way of thinking -- or if they feel threatened, simply brush me off by using condescension. But as this job doesn't mean much to me, I'm like meh.
Try it. At least you'll know/gain experience despite the discomfort.

In my other work environment, I am encouraged to bring ideas forth, so here I am more assertive and driven because my knowledge base is more specialised here. People in my other work would probably not recognise me.

I often feel torn between these two roles, as if I'm unsure which one I really am. But I have realised I am both. I am assertive, or not, depending on the situation. I am empathetic or not, depending on the situation. I am flexible or not, depending on the situation. I adapt to each and every situation, and that is my modus operandi for as long as I can remember.
Same for me. I have areas, where I know I'm good and consequently have more confidence there.

But wouldn't everyone do this? I don't know. I feel torn between types and have realised I emulate type depending on the context. Which can be exhausting depending on what role I'm playing. I'm not really sure what my true "ground state" is because I have such a wide field of interests. I mean, if it was up to me, I'd be working from home all day, analysing and researching all kinds of topics and coming up with new theories. Or I'd be painting, composing music, designing a microecological community or writing a novel.

Or I'd be trying to do them all while holding a "normal" job and burning the candle at both ends...
Typing someone is difficult for the above already discussed reasons, so I can't type you e_e but just read your reasoning process again, its rather Ne<->Ti ish (the questioning, doubting, back and forth possibilities). NTJs tend to be confident due to Ni tunnel vision.

It took me quite a while, many debates and countless threads of arguing and thinking to reach this lvl of confidence with the 2 typology systems for example. I doubt and question myself a lot. ^^ think 30K posts on Personality Cafe (many years).. it was fun tho, I like debating.

INTPs for the record do have a strong grasp of Te and Ni, its just that we don't really value them compared to Ti and Ne. Its why NTPs are abstract thinkers and often don't actually try to implement things in the real world. :P I can think up a system, but the logistical part I'd rather outsource to someone else... so I can keep exploring & thinking instead.
 
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