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Sherlock Holmes & Watson

Pizzabeak

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Holmes - ENTP
Watson - INTP
 

Happy

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Id say Mycroft is the INTP.
Watson is - I dunno.
Moriarty an xNTJ
I agree on Sherlock as an ENTP
 

Yellow

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Which version are we talking about? It's important.
 

Tannhauser

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How on earth is Holmes an ENTP. He is INTP by construction.
 

Yellow

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Sherlock Holmes in the book was aberrant. Simultaneously dominant in Ti and Ni while having healthy doses of Se, Ne, Te, and Si. You could say the same of the TV one too.
 

Happy

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Which version are we talking about? It's important.
This is true

Unless we're talking about Elementary. That show sucks.
 

E404

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There are several portrayals of Sherlock, it is important to know which one we're talking about...

He's an introvert for sure in the BBC series. Maybe E because he needs/wants affirmation of his genius? But he doesn't want attention from everyone or anyone...

I always thought Mycroft was an INTJ and Sherlock was INTP. Watson is some kind of guardian personality.
 

Pizzabeak

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I refer to the literature version, not really any of the screen versions, although people may be free to speculate on the types of those. And actually, INTJ is another good type for him, so maybe a mixture of both of those.

How on earth is Holmes an ENTP. He is INTP by construction.
By construction? Do explain. I should also mention that Doyle didn't necessarily care what any producers did to Holmes for the adaptations, as he essentially gave them free reign. So I speak mainly of the lit version, which I assume is what most people go by when they say he's INTP...
 

ENTP lurker

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Downey Junior's Sherlock is close to ENTP but ENTJ might actually work out bit better.
Cumberbitch's Sherlock is ENTP.

Dole's Sherlock is socially introverted ESTJ (enneagram type 5)
 

Nebulous

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Watson is ISFJ.
Sticks with partner even when he should have left long ago
Deserves better but still is loyal
Was medic in war
Reliable as hell. Always there to save the day. Reminds me of my grandma who is ISFJ. She's a badass. Her husband is ESTP, they remind me of the Sherlock and John duo, except yer husband is very reverent of her (he calls it "fear of God")
Intrigued by Sherlock's intellectual stuff
ISFJ ISFJ ISFJ

Sherlock's weird and doesn't fit into normal typings that well
Se not Si the way he observes things and picks up all those tiny physical clues and all that- it's some crazy shit, even though it's something you learn, it's still crazy and I want to die just thinking of myself trying to learn all that. But then he has his mind palace which says Si to me, and it requires a good amount of visualization, which goes to Se, blah blah.
:confused:
He does the "Ti" thing of sitting, thinking, smoking a pipe, even starving himself and using drugs to increase his thinking abilities

Normal Sherlock is a charming dude. There are certain types that tend to come across like that.

ISTP is Ti Se Ni Fe and that makes a lot of sense to me
ESTP is Se Ti Fe Ni which also makes a ton of sense

I might say Sher is ESTP and Watson ISFJ.

((BBC Sherlock is an extremely unhealthy mess. Where the hell is his Fe))
 

draughtsperson.

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Sherlock's weird and doesn't fit into normal typings that well
Se not Si the way he observes things and picks up all those tiny physical clues and all that- it's some crazy shit, even though it's something you learn, it's still crazy and I want to die just thinking of myself trying to learn all that. But then he has his mind palace which says Si to me, and it requires a good amount of visualization, which goes to Se, blah blah.
In the Study in Scarlet, Sherlock explained to Watson how he mostly worked from indoors on his cases, that the testimony and the details his clients expressed to him usually sufficed him to solve cases, and he only occasionally had to go out for 'leg work'.
The book's Sherlock doesn't really seem to care much for going out and actually experiencing his cases - he doesn't have BBC Sherlock's evident liking for the excitement of immersion in crime scenes and such. Also, the staggering imagery in the show of Sherlock's quick perceptions and taking up the environment, is contrasted by how Sherlock's gathering of data, as seen in the first CSI in the same first novel, is said to be methodical, precise, using tape measure and scanning the whole room, in a rather routine manner.

All seems more Si to me. BBC Sherlock's definitely ISTP, though.
 

Pizzabeak

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Sherlock's weird and doesn't fit into normal typings that well
Se not Si the way he observes things and picks up all those tiny physical clues and all that- it's some crazy shit, even though it's something you learn, it's still crazy and I want to die just thinking of myself trying to learn all that. But then he has his mind palace which says Si to me, and it requires a good amount of visualization, which goes to Se, blah blah.

Si only reminds it of what is different, so it's Ni too, which is Se. Except it doesn't make sense as it would mean there are no different types but it's just according to the theory so there are, but aren't obviously, if you don't use the theory's framework.
All seems more Si to me. BBC Sherlock's definitely ISTP, though.

In the Study in Scarlet, Sherlock explained to Watson how he mostly worked from indoors on his cases, that the testimony and the details his clients expressed to him usually sufficed him to solve cases, and he only occasionally had to go out for 'leg work'.
The book's Sherlock doesn't really seem to care much for going out and actually experiencing his cases - he doesn't have BBC Sherlock's evident liking for the excitement of immersion in crime scenes and such. Also, the staggering imagery in the show of Sherlock's quick perceptions and taking up the environment, is contrasted by how Sherlock's gathering of data, as seen in the first CSI in the same first novel, is said to be methodical, precise, using tape measure and scanning the whole room, in a rather routine manner.

No it doesn't. BBC Sherlock is more so INTP, then the next in line is ENTJ. ISTP was the book version because he picked up on detail. There's like one example in each Sherlock story where he does that. He's still INTJ too, in both the books (4 novellas and 56 short stories, I already said I didn't include any other author's "unofficial" work which in this sense basically means not written by Doyle (and some of the adaptations too). Watson has Si and Fe so could be ISFJ or ESFJ depending on which one it is. In the original books he's more ESTJ, not really ENTJ.

Also, typing fictional characters doesn't make sense.
Now ask me why I made this thread if I just did type fictional characters, since that doesn't make sense.
 

Pizzabeak

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Watson is ISFJ.
What makes you so certain. And which depiction? Either way, if this is the main point, then that would mean Watson's type is important, and one of the main themes that would be the final piece to make the puzzle complete. His type is symbolic, given the main cognitive functional theory/hypothesis unless there's a different one being used, like zodiac signs. So traditional, if you agree with them, guides say he's typed as ISFJ or ESFJ and there may be decent reason for it, so it could also mean he's INTP since they have the same functions. If not, then that's a debunked theory and you're basically stupid for believing it as a result, there's no point fighting back and trying to prove it more true from experience or with examples, but that's if it's only merely a false hypothesis. So there's the chance he's either introverted or extraverted, possibly a thinker although apparently a feeler. So typing fictional characters doesn't count, either way, it's a symbolic theme that expresses the idea. And this is just a hypothetical idea of a separate existing work, it doesn't mean or do much whatever conclusion it comes to, anyone can relate to or be a Sherlock archetype these days, it's not a Sheldon Cooper thing.
Sticks with partner even when he should have left long ago
Deserves better but still is loyal
Was medic in war
Reliable as hell. Always there to save the day. Reminds me of my grandma who is ISFJ. She's a badass. Her husband is ESTP, they remind me of the Sherlock and John duo, except yer husband is very reverent of her (he calls it "fear of God")
Intrigued by Sherlock's intellectual stuff
ISFJ ISFJ ISFJ
So those are just "Si" traits. It depends on Doyle's type, he could be EXTJ, Cherry Cola said ESTJ. They're still fairly intuitive with Ne in the tertiary position, which is some sort of resting state that's mostly always there or subconsciously being used. It doesn't really save anything to come out for later. So Doyle depicted himself as ISFJ in the stories, there's slight chance Watson is really ENTJ. If you take Jude Law's depiction, just to add a "more modern" example that was designed to beef him up a little and make him look more vigorous compared to older, more classic adaptations, he might not be that extraverted or INTP. Or introverted, as he probably shows more Ti than inferior Ti. Sherlock's not ESTP, that doesn't do much for predictive power, and models for his behavior make ISTP or ENTP more likely inevitably, since he's clearly an introvert. I'm not a fan of certain adaptations, then, I like the simple presentations better, and treat them with more respect. As a theme all it could mean is an INTP's relationship with another type, a more certain realistic look at it. There's certainly worth in rereading them. There are no real ENTP types that appear introverted for too long, some of them are more "goofy", who could possibly lack a depth that Ti has. His brother Mycroft could be INTP, if so, Sherlock is ISTP or ENTP as they're way different, or else he's INTP too but of a different archetype or the same and they just appear different, there aren't any other explanations.

Sherlock's weird and doesn't fit into normal typings that well
Se not Si the way he observes things and picks up all those tiny physical clues and all that- it's some crazy shit, even though it's something you learn, it's still crazy and I want to die just thinking of myself trying to learn all that. But then he has his mind palace which says Si to me, and it requires a good amount of visualization, which goes to Se, blah blah.
:confused:
He does the "Ti" thing of sitting, thinking, smoking a pipe, even starving himself and using drugs to increase his thinking abilities

Normal Sherlock is a charming dude. There are certain types that tend to come across like that.

ISTP is Ti Se Ni Fe and that makes a lot of sense to me
ESTP is Se Ti Fe Ni which also makes a ton of sense

I might say Sher is ESTP and Watson ISFJ.

((BBC Sherlock is an extremely unhealthy mess. Where the hell is his Fe))
So he uses Se instead of Ne, and is based off Doyle's teacher Joseph Bell who could have been INFJ with Se in the 4th, inferior position. So he could be INTJ, or still use Ne to a high degree. The point basically is, and I've considered it extensively with nary a satisfying conclusion or yet, the same ones so far, that it depends on intelligence or IQ. I'm willing to bet he's also actually INTP, just highly intelligent and/or sophisticated. INTJ is a good alternative. But then Moriarty would also be INTJ or ENTJ. Doyle didn't like Sherlock Holmes that much. He just had the foresight to see what things would be like in the future, probably based off a long history of older works preceding it (SH came out in 1887). So it's not like he was just writing extensively about INTPs, his other work is more "Si" oriented.
 

Pizzabeak

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and he only occasionally had to go out for 'leg work'.
No, that depended more on the severity of the case. For simpler ones he could just solve it without a second thought, for bigger mysteries, he'd have to actually go, and interview people or gather data.
The book's Sherlock doesn't really seem to care much for going out and actually experiencing his cases - he doesn't have BBC Sherlock's evident liking for the excitement of immersion in crime scenes and such.
This requires a huge amount of evidence, because he didn't not care either, and was more indifferent. That is almost completely arbitrary, as a supposed INTP, he'd be "lazy" or more laid back. That in and of itself doesn't mean any parts of the stories say he didn't seem to care much for going out and actually experiencing his cases. As an INTP or introverted intuitive, I sometimes wondered if he was able to pull off some of the physical things he actually did, although we can't forget he used a seven percent solution of cocaine as a stimulant when he needed to go out for something, usually using it as an adrenaline rush in case of run ins with thugs or a fight. So he was more indifferent than anything else.
Also, the staggering imagery in the show of Sherlock's quick perceptions and taking up the environment, is contrasted by how Sherlock's gathering of data, as seen in the first CSI in the same first novel, is said to be methodical, precise, using tape measure and scanning the whole room, in a rather routine manner.

All seems more Si to me. BBC Sherlock's definitely ISTP, though.
No one is really talking about BBC Sherlock, who is INTJ by the way, most likely, as opposed to ISTP, who are more mechanical or into hardware. He tends to use both techniques in the books, and gathering data from a crime scene, can be said to usually be methodical. In a Victorian style novel any other display would have been seen as odd. When he examined Watson's watch in the introduction of the second novella, he used quick perceptions and didn't really look at it for that long, although it can't be too reliable to interpret it that way from text. That's why it would be shown that way in an adaptation, and why typing fictional characters doesn't always make sense.
 

Pizzabeak

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I’d like to redact my previous comments about SH possibly being based off Joseph Bell who “might be INFJ”, because that just made INFJs obsessed with trying to seduce like Holmes. He could have been INTJ or INTP instead, as he was a doctor. There might also be differences between living in the USA and elsewhere, although not a huge one. I’m not going to post any sources for fear of people stealing the, or my, idea, and playing it off like they thought of something on their own. This isn’t the totality of my thoughts or all
I’m capable of writing, I’m just busy and will finish the rest later.

I don’t reconcile other country’s heroes or fictional characters or who they look up to, I think everyone wants to be American now or move there.

I learned different words for “obvious” in Japanese. Before, you could just say something is easy or that you understand. However, the word for obvious is akiraka, which means clear. To say “obviously” as an expression, they use iumademonaku, or something like “needless to say” would be the adjective iumademonai, which means, literally translated, “until you say it, there is nothing”, or “there is nothing until you say it”. This can’t be good.

People are obsessed with “intuition” or “knowing everything”, in which empathy apparently plays a small part, so why you have to say certain things when it should apparently be obvious is a little bit beyond me. That means people decide who they want to bond or interact with beforehand, as autonomous agents, then talk to them. “Provoking a response” is something else entirely, it could also mainly be people just doing the opposite of whatever someone else does in hopes it increases their value, because they can “see what’s missing”.
 

scorpiomover

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Sherlock Holmes in the book was aberrant. Simultaneously dominant in Ti and Ni while having healthy doses of Se, Ne, Te, and Si. You could say the same of the TV one too.
Are you suggesting that no person like Holmes could possibly exist in real life?

Or are you suggesting that MBTI is wrong and there are people in real life who are simultaneously dominant in Ti and Ni while having healthy doses of Se, Ne, Te, and Si?
 

ZenRaiden

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Holmes - ENTP
Watson - INTP
Holmes is intelligent ISTP. Master of his craft. Accute observations, measures everything and notices details. Every intuitive leap he makes is carefully build up. He isnt intuitive at all. He also has good memory. He is all about being practical even when concerning science. Does drugs loves action.

Watson is a girly type of snob. Most likely a INFP or INFJ. Not sure. He writes down everything and he is basically a literary device to help develope the story line and make a contrast to Holmes otherwise bland character.
 

Pizzabeak

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Holmes - ENTP
Watson - INTP
Holmes is intelligent ISTP. Master of his craft. Accute observations, measures everything and notices details. Every intuitive leap he makes is carefully build up. He isnt intuitive at all. He also has good memory. He is all about being practical even when concerning science. Does drugs loves action.

Watson is a girly type of snob. Most likely a INFP or INFJ. Not sure. He writes down everything and he is basically a literary device to help develope the story line and make a contrast to Holmes otherwise bland character.
Doyle was ENTJ, maybe ESTJ. If Holmes was INTP Watson was ISFJ, possibly ESFJ. Holmes could be INTJ. The world is different. Mycroft was probably ENTP, so Holmes would actually be INTP or J. His memory is normal. He doesn’t “do drugs loves action”. He only used a 7% solution as a stimulant when his job would call for possible danger interacting with thugs in the first place. He smoked pipes of tobacco. That’s what people don’t get, he loved thinking, or rather, had a habit. INTPs think more than INTJs, ISFJs are posers and have tertiary Ti, in which the 3rd function is a “resting state” cognitive function. In INFJs it’s Ti, which is why they seem “intelligent” or like “deep thinkers”, but they are also posers, and their Fe sucks. ENFJs use Fe better.
 

ANAXEL

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Sherlock Holmes in the book was aberrant. Simultaneously dominant in Ti and Ni while having healthy doses of Se, Ne, Te, and Si. You could say the same of the TV one too.
Are you suggesting that no person like Holmes could possibly exist in real life?

Or are you suggesting that MBTI is wrong and there are people in real life who are simultaneously dominant in Ti and Ni while having healthy doses of Se, Ne, Te, and Si?
There aren’t, really.
Just as there are no Dwight Schrutes or even, contradictory to what his character’s simpler nature may suggest, Jim Halpers. When Sherlock writers create a story with his character in mind they only label him as “smarter than”. What he does is fully dependent on what would entertain the audience so he ends up an inconsistent mess as most fictional characters do.
I’ve personally always thought an INTJ would make a great Sherlock Holmes. An INTP as well. They both carry the efficiency and logic engines at an intuitive level that are needed to be like Sherlock and S types honestly (prove me wrong) don’t carry that.
But then, what throws us all of, is that (prove me wrong again) no N type carries that amount of perception of their external environment with so much attention to detail. The only humans I’ve ever witnessed catching on to so much stuff are ESXX’s. Can’t scratch your crotch 2 miles away from those people, they’ll notice.

I can say, however, one version of Sherlock that I related the most to as an ENTP was Robert Downey Jr’s. The reasoning behind his actions match very well my own.
My favorite moment was seeing him begging Watson for help when he would get himself in a pickle.
Set ENTP’s with any IXFJ’s and we’ll abuse their reliability to compensate for our own foolishness.
 

ZenRaiden

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Well if someone plays chess for 20 years they seem intuitive even if they are sensors. After so many years they bout to make moves that would make a novices hair stand. Holmes is extreme talent, but he always leads with detail. He builts from small things a pyramid and then goes to intuitive leaps. Not the other way around. Yes there are cases where he solves the case way before the client walks into the room and when the client walks into the room he knows his name and reason being there, but thats because he has info no one else knows about. Most of the time he can explain his intuitive leap too.
 

Pizzabeak

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Holmes could still be INTP if Watson was ISFJ or ENTJ
 
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