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Source Monitoring

Pizzabeak

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They say if you're training to be a curandero you can't have sex because the spirits you'd contact hate the smell of period blood+sperm/semen and just humans in general, so as part of la dieta they have to abstain in order to get to know the plants more.

Does anyone know from, or have, experience with this or is it bullshit? Also, if you aren't even really training to be one or doing la dieta do effects still hold? Coincidentally, in the past whenever I tried to get laid nothing would work so there could be some science or more complex reasoning behind it. I'm more of a scholar/journalist than anything else, although my Mexican ancestry could give me some connection to it. I'm not really trying to be a shaman or sorcerer, but was just researching the psychedelic experience - shamanism or curing can be a dangerous occupation because other people can get mad or be brujas and shoot darts at you. That's another reason why they diet, because they can get mad who you'd have sex with if you're married, or try to kill you for your wife. Plus, it's like a business or competition from a perspective, they'd lose business, or customers, so they eliminate other shamans or curanderos to make more money or reputation.

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Source Monitoring could be related:
In shamanism, there has been research done to determine whether hallucinations are "real" or not, or how they are generated. Specifically, whether it's possible to tell if stimuli is internal or from external sources. Most people don't really discriminate or think about the process of discriminating between their thoughts and images and the things they hear or see.

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It sounds like misremembering things plays a huge role in human history and what actually is.
It turns out, people just look at you, then base their whole life off it, whether that means just doing or believing the opposite in hopes it makes them smarter than you at last or “woke” because they can “see what’s missing”. Not everyone does that. “Live in the now”, “reality is a simulation designed by some entities to gather more data on human emotion”.

Of course if you were intelligent enough, you’d be able to see through it and solve the problem anyway the first time. So it’s a plot just to get “more”, or everyone is trying to get something for nothing.

Knowing that, should give you some insights into the nature of people.
Thoughts? What is your interpretation of it?
 

computerhxr

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Having been through the experience outlined in the book, and having an (undiagnosed) schizophrenia, I can give you my perspective.

What you describe as "source monitoring" is getting in touch with your inner beast. Human nature and culture are in conflict. The higher levels of consciousness are an adaptation to survive after our lower order functions are served.

Imagine famine spreads and food is no longer a convenience. Starving and sex deprived, your animal instincts kick in.

When you are in "beast mode" you are not inhibited by thinking, you are merely reacting to your environment.

What people say, what they mean, how they think they feel, and how they actually feel are very different things. Schizophrenia is seeing the beast inside, hearing the lies, without knowing why they are lying. You end up seeing multiple realities as true. People believe their own lies, but they can't hide their core no matter how many layers are caked on top.

People who are suffering from Schizophrenia are like releasing a mountain lion into a mall. They may be really dangerous, or maybe not, so it's not something to take lightly. They may be in deep, seeing the worst case in their perception of reality. I wouldn't call a turbulent schizophrenic a shaman.

Have you ever noticed how cats, dogs, and horses seem to be more receptive to some part of nature that people are oblivious to? They are in survival mode, whereas people are disconnected from their inner beast. Our survival depends more on fitting in with cultures so we can make money to pay the bills to put food on the table.

Your inner beast is a leveling view of the world because without our higher levels of human consciousness, you are not much different than a cat, dog, rabbit, cow, crow, or any other animal. I remember at one point a pitbull came at me barking in full attack mode. I kneeled down so my face was on their level, the whole time biting and snapping inches from my face like they were going to tear my face off. Their owner screamed and grabbed them by the collar, yanking them back. I wasn't worried up until that point, even though I had no experience with this particular dog, I knew their owners response was fear, and he would definately destroy my face to protect her. Dogs sense fear and people can't hide it from them.

I would not devalue intelligence however. We evolved culture and intellectualism for a purpose.

Hallucinations are not much different than dreams. When you dream, you do not know that you are dreaming, unless it is a lucid dream. If your dreams were so vivid that they combine with your waking reality, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference unless it was out of pattern. Even hallucinations can be in pattern with reality, making them virtually indistinguishable.

Living in the now is living an uninhibited, authentic life. It comes with risks and liabilities, but at least you're not living a lie. Even more, you are not inebriated giving you a warped inauthentic personality affect. This is a welcomed alternative to Schizophrenia.

I am grateful that I was able to recover and I can say that my symptoms have passed. It was a terrible period of time. I screwed up relationships, finances, health, and put myself in risky dangerous situations. The dillusions mixed with reality so I'm sure that I said a lot of crazy incoherent shit during that time. I'm going to be paying my dues for a long time to make up for my behavior. Definately not recommended!
 

Cognisant

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They say if you're training to be a curandero you can't have sex because the spirits you'd contact hate the smell of period blood+sperm/semen and just humans in general, so as part of la dieta they have to abstain in order to get to know the plants more.
I come at mysticism from an understanding of self-hypnosis, this justification for celibacy is just straight nonsense however that nonsense itself can be useful. To focus your will on something it's not enough to simply tell yourself "I want to focus on this" there needs to be a commitment and that commitment must be acted upon in order to be committed.

So lets say you want to be a curandero, since a lot of this mystical healing shit is based on the placebo effect when you introduce yourself as a curandero you need to believe it because if you don't believe it your uncertainty will show in subtle ways and they won't believe you either. To establish this belief that you are a legit curandero (or whatever, this is broadly applicable to mystical shit) you need to put intent into action, you need to establish your commitment by performing some kind of sacrifice and this sacrifice has to be meaningful to you because it's a test of will.

Basically you're battling your subconscious, if your sacrifice is fasting for three days then by the second day your subconscious is going to be screaming at you to eat because well that's its job. Whereas your job it to carry out its will (eat, survive, procreate, etc) but with sufficient self determination you can dictate your terms to it and if those terms are "I am a curandero" then your subconscious will adapt, it will do whatever it must to ensure you both survive. Then the next time you introduce yourself as a curandero you will believe it, the greater the sacrifice you made the greater your conviction and thus the more convincing you'll and when it comes to the placebo effecting being sufficiently convincing is everything.

Celibacy is a particularly good sacrifice (hence why it appears in various cultures that have nothing to do with each other) because it doesn't wear off, by basing your beliefs off your celibacy those beliefs become a crutch for dealing with the misery of being celibate and the longer you stick to it the more reinforced this cycle becomes until one day you're past your prime, full of suppressed regret and you can't give up those beliefs because you need them to protect yourself from the revelation that you've wasted your life in self delusion.
 

The Grey Man

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Celibacy appears in many cultures as the religious sacrifice par excellence because it is the ultimate denial of time and blood, of one's animal nature. In every culture, a dichotomy emerges between those men whose intellect is occupied with matters of practical-durational significance and those whose superfluity of intellect leads them to ponder the meaning of things sub specie aeternitatis...

Theologia Germanica said:
For if the left eye be fulfilling its office toward outward things; that is, holding converse with time and the creatures; then must the right eye be hindered in its working; that is, in its contemplation. Therefore whosoever will have the one must let the other go; for “no man can serve two masters.”
Once again, we are speaking of the opposition between Plato's cave and the astrologer who fell into the well; the former is a philosopher's confession of superiority over the ignorant mass of mankind, the latter the chastising reply of practical men like Cognisant who view a life of chaste contemplation as a frank "waste". Of course, we had to have cave-dwellers before we could have astrologers; religion requires a sacrifice of time and blood that can only be provided by the prosperity of man-as-animal.

It is for this reason that the great families of medieval times would often send their youngest children to join religious orders whereas their elder sons and daughters would become soldiers and wives. Because religion and philosophy (not to mention art) are superfluous, they require the necessities of life as a condition precedent. The more the limbs of a tree extend upwards towards the warm light of the sun, the more must its roots penetrate the cold and dark earth below. Perhaps this is one way of achieving the integration of the heart and the head of which @Puffy has spoken.
 

Cognisant

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Once again, we are speaking of the opposition between Plato's cave and the astrologer who fell into the well; the former is a philosopher's confession of superiority over the ignorant mass of mankind, the latter the chastising reply of practical men like Cognisant who view a life of chaste contemplation as a frank "waste".
In the past I've talked about the consequences of not just my choices but also my priorities, I'm well on my way to 30 and I'm not on track to settling down and having a family and not for a lack of opportunity. So I'm not saying choosing celibacy is the wrong choice, but I am very critical of people who idealize it because I think there's a lot of people who are indoctrinated at a young age into thinking celibacy is a virtue and thus tricked into justifying a lifestyle that they never really chose for themselves.

If one day I'm an old man with no legacy and broken dreams I'll only have myself to blame, but I'll feel better knowing I made that choice, even if it was the wrong choice, because it was my choice.
 

Pizzabeak

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Celibacy appears in many cultures as the religious sacrifice par excellence because it is the ultimate denial of time and blood, of one's animal nature. In every culture, a dichotomy emerges between those men whose intellect is occupied with matters of practical-durational significance and those whose superfluity of intellect leads them to ponder the meaning of things sub specie aeternitatis...

Theologia Germanica said:
For if the left eye be fulfilling its office toward outward things; that is, holding converse with time and the creatures; then must the right eye be hindered in its working; that is, in its contemplation. Therefore whosoever will have the one must let the other go; for “no man can serve two masters.”
Once again, we are speaking of the opposition between Plato's cave and the astrologer who fell into the well; the former is a philosopher's confession of superiority over the ignorant mass of mankind, the latter the chastising reply of practical men like Cognisant who view a life of chaste contemplation as a frank "waste". Of course, we had to have cave-dwellers before we could have astrologers; religion requires a sacrifice of time and blood that can only be provided by the prosperity of man-as-animal.

It is for this reason that the great families of medieval times would often send their youngest children to join religious orders whereas their elder sons and daughters would become soldiers and wives. Because religion and philosophy (not to mention art) are superfluous, they require the necessities of life as a condition precedent. The more the limbs of a tree extend upwards towards the warm light of the sun, the more must its roots penetrate the cold and dark earth below. Perhaps this is one way of achieving the integration of the heart and the head of which @Puffy has spoken.
“The Vision of Visions heals the Blindness of Sight.”

To make things clear, this thread isn’t about celibacy. It’s about “source monitoring”.
In other words, it’s about culturally sanctioned beliefs forcing “celibacy” upon others by the telling of “little white lies” and myth.
“People just look at you, then do or believe the opposite...”

It largely to me seems to be anger, jealousy, or envy that “it isn’t them”. Passive aggressiveness included, people are mad at their birth, not having asked to be, and are totally ill prepared for it.
So intelligence is ability to adapt, quickly, in circumstances. It certainly must not be a part of everyone’s everyday tool box, although to think that someone didn’t think of something already, or that things haven’t already been known for hundreds of thousands of years is kind of foolish.
 

computerhxr

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Is it possible that Freud's theory of the libido being the driving force of behavior, has any significance? Maybe when you lack motives, you are in a heightened state of awareness, allowing one to be fully receptive to the energies of the subject. The strength of the bond lending more weight to the "placebo" effect.
 

Pizzabeak

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Is it possible that Freud's theory of the libido being the driving force of behavior, has any significance? Maybe when you lack motives, you are in a heightened state of awareness, allowing one to be fully receptive to the energies of the subject. The strength of the bond lending more weight to the "placebo" effect.
Yes. Lacking motives doesn't have much to do with it. And also, just because someone else says something first, doesn't mean no one hadn't thought of it yet, let alone hadn't said it or conveyed the message to a particular audience before.
Lacking motives doesn't have much to do with it. I don't think it automatically leads towards a heightened state of awareness automatically, but definitely changes your mindset by manifesting any discipline, which would do what it does. But again, this thread isn't about celibacy, it's about "source monitoring".
I take it to mean that people are highly influenced by what they see. Most people are sensors (specifically Se/Ni, I think, is more common than Si/Ne). In short, I think it could be like watching a horror movie and getting frustrated, throwing your phone or remote at the screen in anger, not understanding why the character doesn't know something or always falls when being chased by the killer.
It's about personal identity/ego, which can be completely shattered in mere seconds, all traces of stability annihilated - and you only realize once it starts to come back down. So what does it mean, everything is temporary? I wouldn't so much call it Freud, it could even be Joseph, the King of Dreams, "He recognized his brothers but they did not recognize him."
And it's not the Sherlock Holmes thing, where being an observer is praised, or as if it's being able to know everything through deduction is the goal. People don't get that he was a cop (consulting detective), just doing his job, and that he was a scientist, having published a few documents on various topics including the science of deduction, arguing that it's an exact science, not really an art or anything else.
 

Pizzabeak

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Having been through the experience outlined in the book, and having an (undiagnosed) schizophrenia, I can give you my perspective.
What experience in the book did you exactly have? Any kind of information on schizophrenia would be useful to have for this topic, even if mis or undiagnosed, for the greater understanding of schizophrenia, in which there could be some propaganda or disinformation floating out there about it. I can't say the experience is literally about going schizophrenic in any sense, so it might not be the same.
What you describe as "source monitoring" is getting in touch with your inner beast. Human nature and culture are in conflict. The higher levels of consciousness are an adaptation to survive after our lower order functions are served.

Imagine famine spreads and food is no longer a convenience. Starving and sex deprived, your animal instincts kick in.

When you are in "beast mode" you are not inhibited by thinking, you are merely reacting to your environment.

What people say, what they mean, how they think they feel, and how they actually feel are very different things. Schizophrenia is seeing the beast inside, hearing the lies, without knowing why they are lying. You end up seeing multiple realities as true. People believe their own lies, but they can't hide their core no matter how many layers are caked on top.
Those are different things and you're just putting them under the same category. It's not the same as the two different nervous systems either.
People who are suffering from Schizophrenia are like releasing a mountain lion into a mall. They may be really dangerous, or maybe not, so it's not something to take lightly. They may be in deep, seeing the worst case in their perception of reality. I wouldn't call a turbulent schizophrenic a shaman.
That would highly depend and as a stereotype isn't amusing to pass on as something to take as if it were an insignificant event. It would be like getting hit with a flash grenade or even a smokescreen/poisonous gas. A "shaman" is typically one who had gotten healed, so they can see both sides of the picture, as for what is considered a hallucination. Any madman isn't a shaman, there are also brujas.
Your inner beast is a leveling view of the world because without our higher levels of human consciousness, you are not much different than a cat, dog, rabbit, cow, crow, or any other animal. I remember at one point a pitbull came at me barking in full attack mode. I kneeled down so my face was on their level, the whole time biting and snapping inches from my face like they were going to tear my face off. Their owner screamed and grabbed them by the collar, yanking them back. I wasn't worried up until that point, even though I had no experience with this particular dog, I knew their owners response was fear, and he would definately destroy my face to protect her. Dogs sense fear and people can't hide it from them.

I would not devalue intelligence however. We evolved culture and intellectualism for a purpose.
At this point, this is something I've posted about before that maybe you read and started thinking about, making your mind wander. It could be revolutionary or not, depending on how you look at it. It isn't that some people or autistic people can communicate with animals more or have increased empathy, or if they're around them more they start to understand them in different ways. I'm glad you could protect your face and that we understand how dogs can be protective around their owner. People can panic in high tense scenarios when there might not be enough time. In the book and essays I'm working on I go into a little detail about it, I would blog about it if possible, I guess, so I'm not sure if that has anything to do with it. It's just the way animals perceive, and memory is important. It doesn't mean they're doing anything. They're just breathing air, and how it comes off to you, or as the events that unfold, practically defines around understanding of it all, as species.

Intelligence just refers to a broader category of adaptive skills, so one can have social intelligence, physical or mental intelligence, or musical or mathematical intelligence, for instance. Then it's survival potential, there could be a smart person whom by a variety of circumstances including luck and chance might die before they pass on offspring. People would say, probably, that there something not-intelligent could have been going on, despite any other "intellectual" endeavors.
Hallucinations are not much different than dreams. When you dream, you do not know that you are dreaming, unless it is a lucid dream. If your dreams were so vivid that they combine with your waking reality, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference unless it was out of pattern. Even hallucinations can be in pattern with reality, making them virtually indistinguishable.
I posted about dreams before, and have done some work in the area already, so it's always a good topic to go back to for review and discussion. None of it is surprising and it's hard to say if you're understanding of it even approaches mine. It isn't a good thing if someone can't tell waking from dreaming life, as it means they're confused and not really enlightened. There are different mindsets the brain gets into which affects
Living in the now is living an uninhibited, authentic life. It comes with risks and liabilities, but at least you're not living a lie. Even more, you are not inebriated giving you a warped inauthentic personality affect. This is a welcomed alternative to Schizophrenia.

I am grateful that I was able to recover and I can say that my symptoms have passed. It was a terrible period of time. I screwed up relationships, finances, health, and put myself in risky dangerous situations. The dillusions mixed with reality so I'm sure that I said a lot of crazy incoherent shit during that time. I'm going to be paying my dues for a long time to make up for my behavior. Definately not recommended!
People regret not being one hundred percent in the moment so it's said to live in the now, with balance. Better choices improve your living.
how one perceives reality. Environment is important, so mental outbreaks can be a tough thing to experience on certain occasions. Inebriation isn't for every situation.
 
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