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Split : typism and critique of Inquisitor derail from [MMPI-2 test]

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Cherry Cola

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Indeed. If this test is harmful unless carried out by professionals then taking an interest in psychology without being- or at least in the process of becoming a professional is harmful following the same logic.

I really have a hard time picturing Inquisitor as anything but an ISTJ.
 

Inquisitor

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Re: MMPI-2 test

Indeed. If this test is harmful unless carried out by professionals then taking an interest in psychology without being- or at least in the process of becoming a professional is harmful following the same logic.

I really have a hard time picturing Inquisitor as anything but an ISTJ.
I'm sure this comes from your years of experience treating the mentally ill and your deep theoretical knowledge of both Jungian analytical psychology and modern psychological assessments.

If respecting formal training and expert opinion makes me an ISTJ, so be it.
 

Seteleechete

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Inquisitor

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Inquisitor

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Re: MMPI-2 test

I'm having a hard time believing that you have ever worked with this measurement (or even observed) in real life, or have had much time working as a therapist. Then again, I can't seem to see any reference to your expertise except in peoples' responses, so maybe they are just being sarcastic, and this isn't your field at all.

In practice, measurements are just your paper trail justifying what you've already concluded. It's not magic. It's not going to hurt anyone to play around with it. You know what does hurt people? Erroneous diagnoses given by "professionals".

Holy fuck balls. Too often, the only difference between an amateur and a professional is the piece of paper on their goddamn wall. No. Worse. I have colleagues/contemporaries who would probably improve without it. At least then, they'd have a chance of realizing that they are dangerous fucktards.

I totally realize that you're probably just a first year student or something, and you're just repeating what you've been taught, but I've been having to deal with a [relevant] mess here at work the last few days, and this was a good vent.

Now that I'm a little calmer, I'm ready to tackle this:

Okay, give it up. I know you're trolling.

Personally, I'm not even mad. I'm impressed, and a little relieved, to tell the truth. You've really had us going for the last few months. I don't know about anyone else, but I honestly believed that you were serious with this character.

Are you trying to perfect a persona or something? If so, I have some thoughts. In retrospect, you've been too obvious. If we weren't a generally awkward bunch, I probably would have caught on sooner. It's nothing against your act, but you are trying to stretch too far. Maybe for the next forum, you could try an INFJ who insists that he's an INTJ. Those are almost as frustrating to deal with, but more understandable. You'll get a better reception, and have time to work on the subtlety of the role.
Yellow...usually your posts have been interesting and informative, but I think you're losing it a little bit. Particularly the part about professionals making "erroneous" diagnoses. I guess something must have happened to you to make you go off into another dimension of rage... Unless you're joking. And in that case I would say "haha very funny" with absolutely zero smile on my face.

Are you ok?
 

Blarraun

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Re: MMPI-2 test

Yellow...usually your posts have been interesting and informative, but I think you're losing it a little bit. Particularly the part about professionals making "erroneous" diagnoses. I guess something must have happened to you to make you go off into another dimension of rage... Unless you're joking. And in that case I would say "haha very funny" with absolutely zero smile on my face.
Aren't you trying to control the discussion by asking if Yellow is feeling well? I don't like your tone of questioning here, it doesn't have to do with Yellow's wellbeing.

What's incorrect about professionals making errors, or about uneducated, incompetent imbeciles achieving and flaunting their professional status?

It might be hard to digest for someone so ascriptive to the idea of status and authority, but that's also why this pitfall is dangerous in the first place.
 

Inquisitor

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Re: MMPI-2 test

Aren't you trying to control the discussion by asking if Yellow is feeling well? I don't like your tone of questioning here, it doesn't have to do with Yellow's wellbeing.

What's incorrect about professionals making errors, or about uneducated, incompetent imbeciles achieving and flaunting their professional status?

It might be hard to digest for someone so ascriptive to the idea of status and authority, but that's also why this pitfall is dangerous in the first place.
You're a terrible mod.
 

Blarraun

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Re: MMPI-2 test

I completely don't see any problems with taking this test, people who approach it too seriously are making a mistake.

Emmabobary, you didn't even explain what's wrong about this version, what's missing, you said it was raw and incomplete, it would be nice if you could provide a better resource yourself or at least explain.
You're a terrible mod.
I think you should sort out your own issues before joining any discussion, most of the heat in the threads you appear in seems to revolve around your person. Yes, this means that you are the origin of most problems around you.
 

Inquisitor

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Re: MMPI-2 test

I completely don't see any problems with taking this test, people who approach it too seriously are making a mistake.

Emmabobary, you didn't even explain what's wrong about this version, what's missing, you said it was raw and incomplete, it would be nice if you could provide a better resource yourself or at least explain.

I think you should sort out your own issues before joining any discussion, most of the heat in the threads you appear in seems to revolve around your person. Yes, this means that you are the origin of most problems around you.
You and all the other mods have made it abundantly clear to me that you won't tolerate "ad homs," and I've adhered to that. Yet when other people label me as being ISTJ based on some of the ideas I put forth, that's ok? When I suggest people actually take the time to read typology books, I'm labelled as "regurgitating" somebody else's ideas (You), "appealing to authority" (Hado), and I'm basically criticized as an "uncritical" thinker and very "un-INTP." I haven't seen you or any other mod warn others off when I've been on the receiving end of ad homs....It's also ok for someone to label me a troll and a fake (Yellow), but I'm the bad guy!? Getting the feeling there's quite a double standard here...

I know none of the mods particularly like me (I'm tolerated at best), but still, purely on principle, if you haven't decided to ban me, I think you need to enforce your standards a little more impartially.
 

Fukyo

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Re: MMPI-2 test

You and all the other mods have made it abundantly clear to me that you won't tolerate "ad homs," and I've adhered to that. Yet when other people label me as being ISTJ based on some of the ideas I put forth, that's ok? When I suggest people actually take the time to read typology books, I'm labelled as "regurgitating" somebody else's ideas (You), "appealing to authority" (Hado), and I'm basically criticized as an "uncritical" thinker and very "un-INTP." I haven't seen you or any other mod warn others off when I've been on the receiving end of ad homs....It's also ok for someone to label me a troll and a fake (Yellow), but I'm the bad guy!? Getting the feeling there's quite a double standard here...

I know none of the mods particularly like me (I'm tolerated at best), but still, purely on principle, if you haven't decided to ban me, I think you need to enforce your standards a little more impartially.
I think you'll find people are giving you a bit of your own medicine, y' know. I think you will also find people are calling you an ISTJ because of your bigoted insistence on upholding external authority, whether it be in form of adherence to written word or appeal to authority and age of specific people. I mean, really - you're rubbing quite a few people wrong, and I'm referring to regular members, did you not expect you wouldn't get any reproach from people? If you showed some more open mindedness when discussing typology instead of holding fast to your experiences/opinions/works you prefer to cite I don't think anybody would suggest you're an ISTJ. I really don't think that anyone has a problem with acknowledging the value of Jung's work. They have a problem with an individual who is treating it like immutable laws and stifling discussion or shutting people down bc of their age or w/e.

I'm not saying this from the position of a moderator, but have you taken a honest look at your behavior and how you conduct yourself, or is your arrogance too great for that? You habitually question and challenge people's types, while taking great offense at your own being questioned, pushing absolute statements like "INTPs are exclusively ecto/mesomorphs" or "INTPs are not into physical exercise" onto people without a hint of humility or desire to discuss when disagreements arise. You just keep brow beating people and claiming you're right because so and so said that or the person questioning you isn't old enough to meet your standards of excellence/authority.

I think Yellow's statement was a semi joke - I think she called you a troll out of an inability to fathom your behavior is for real.

Considering your head is stuck so far up your ass with respect to validity of your views I don't think you're in any place to call anyone hypocritical. Let me put it this way: Why should Yellow be reprimanded for calling you an ISTJ when she isn't the one habitually calling people out on their type? I think you just have a problem with being questioned on something, particularly your type and respond with condescension. Blarraun was right in pointing that out in your reply to Yellow. Need I remind you how you lashed out at Hadoblado who was very patient and reasonable in approaching the topic of your type? Yeah.
 

Seteleechete

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Re: MMPI-2 test

It's seems idiotic to stick to interpretations when they don't make sense and to accept something just because that's expert opinion. There is nothing wrong with gathering expert opinions, there is something distinctly 'wrong' with not questioning them.

On another note these are also distinctly SJ traits, which is why I think you are one, your attitude also mirrors an ISTJ(you remind me of Hermoine Granger).
 

redbaron

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Re: MMPI-2 test

Inquisitor said:
I'm open to discussing various interpretations of the functions and how they manifest in real life. But I'm going to stick to the literature and defer to the experts.
This statement is contradictory, and one of the major reasons for the conflict you encounter.

If all you're going to do is stick to literature and defer to experts, any discussion you have is never going to be open and allow various interpretations.

Experts themselves are constantly redefining and recalibrating their own interpretations when it comes to MBTI. Yet when people on the forum offer ideas about how they see ways MBTI could be recalibrated, you basically just browbeat them by saying, "nuh uh! That's not the exact version of *insert professional here* so you're wrong!"

The thing is, if that's your only contributuon to discussion you may as well just not discuss. It's just bible bashing, except with a copy of Psychological Types (or whatever other "expert" source you've found relevant to the discussion) instead. You may as well just link to a PDF of the book and say, "my views are whatever is written here and anyone who says something that doesn't agree with something in this book is wrong."

That way you can let everyone know how wrong you think they are in just one post, and we can all continue discussing stuff.
 

Inquisitor

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Re: MMPI-2 test

It's seems idiotic to stick to interpretations when they don't make sense and to accept something just because that's expert opinion. There is nothing wrong with gathering expert opinions, there is something distinctly 'wrong' with not questioning them.

On another note these are also distinctly SJ traits, which is why I think you are one, your attitude also mirrors an ISTJ(you remind me of Hermoine Granger).
I don't disagree in theory, but how do you know what expert opinion is if you haven't even bothered to read what the experts had to say? You can question them once you've read them, but it's not OK to critique w/o even knowing what it is you're actually critiquing.

Your second statement is exactly the reason why I dish out what the experts (Jung and others) wrote. You are misattributing a typological term (SJ and ISTJ) to your own subjective impressions of me.

Basically you think that ISTJs are not capable (or generally not willing) of critiquing "expert opinion" and just accept what "experts" say b/c they are "experts." This implies that ISTJs are just uncritical thinkers b/c they don't question anything. Nothing could be further from the truth. This is an ad hom, and furthermore reflects a poor understanding on your part of what the functions actually are b/c you haven't bothered to read. The only thing we can say about ISTJs for sure that is supported by the literature is that they generally stick to what they know, ie past experience. They can be really excellent at critiquing lots of things, and in fact, I would say that they're ideally suited to being judges. They can take a legal case apart, and split hairs down to the finest details. They are oriented towards the evidence, due to Te, and can simultaneously recall all relevant legal codes, precedents, and doctrines.

That's why I say, go pick up a book and start reading. Stop living in la-la land.
 

Inquisitor

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Re: MMPI-2 test

This statement is contradictory, and one of the major reasons for the conflict you encounter.

If all you're going to do is stick to literature and defer to experts, any discussion you have is never going to be open and allow various interpretations.

Experts themselves are constantly redefining and recalibrating their own interpretations when it comes to MBTI. Yet when people on the forum offer ideas about how they see ways MBTI could be recalibrated, you basically just browbeat them by saying, "nuh uh! That's not the exact version of *insert professional here* so you're wrong!"

The thing is, if that's your only contributuon to discussion you may as well just not discuss. It's just bible bashing, except with a copy of Psychological Types (or whatever other "expert" source you've found relevant to the discussion) instead. You may as well just link to a PDF of the book and say, "my views are whatever is written here and anyone who says something that doesn't agree with something in this book is wrong."

That way you can let everyone know how wrong you think they are in just one post, and we can all continue discussing stuff.
My answer to this is:

If you don't have a good fundamental understanding of the field, then everyone has different definitions of what the functions mean, and really the discussion is just people batting around their subjective impressions and erroneously tying them to various typological terms whenever they feel inclined. It's tempting to believe that one understands all the basic ideas after reading a couple articles online, but unfortunately, that's just not true.
 

redbaron

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Re: MMPI-2 test

There's also people who've read Types who have different interpretations to yours, or who don't take it as gospel. The opinions of the experts themselves are subjective and constantly being redefined.

The point is that something you do very often on this forum, is tout the opinions of whomever you consider an expert in whatever field is being discussed. All other opinions are rejected if they deviate from expert literature, not because they can be reasonably shown to be improbable or inaccurate - but simply because they deviate from the expert framework.

So just use this line instead: "my views are whatever is written here (link to expert book) and anyone who says something that doesn't agree with something in this book is wrong."
 

Blarraun

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Re: MMPI-2 test

What baffles me the most Inquisitor, is the fact that instead of mentioning that you don't wish to be typed immediately, you instead retorted to Yellow and only called it double standards when I reacted to what you were doing.

In other words, you set up a situation in which you would have been perfectly fine and "justified" acting to escalate the conflict based on others ridiculing or labeling you as a troll or other.

Bottom line: We now get it that you don't feel nice about being called ISTJ, was the solution to name the problem or was it to make you a martyr of our "unfair politics"?
 

Inquisitor

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Re: MMPI-2 test

There's also people who've read Types who have different interpretations to yours, or who don't take it as gospel. The opinions of the experts themselves are subjective and constantly being redefined.

The point is that something you do very often on this forum, is tout the opinions of whomever you consider an expert in whatever field is being discussed. All other opinions are rejected if they deviate from expert literature, not because they can be reasonably shown to be improbable or inaccurate - but simply because they deviate from the expert framework.

So just use this line instead: "my views are whatever is written here (link to expert book) and anyone who says something that doesn't agree with something in this book is wrong."
I can only say this so many ways: Virtually no one here has read Psychological Types or any other typology books for that matter. This is why I keep dishing out what other authors have written. I would be very happy to discuss "different interpretations" with people who have "done their homework," but it seems most are too lazy to bother.

Even from regular members, I still see a lack of understanding of the fundamentals. That's why I'm "touting" the opinions of the experts, so people at least know that their interpretation differs significantly from that of the experts. You want to show me how my interpretation of Jung and other authors is wrong, pick up the damn book and point it out to me instead of attacking me.

As for the opinions of experts "constantly" being redefined and highly subjective...you're basically saying that since the field is always changing, there's not much point in reading the foundational works of the field b/c they're not very relevant anymore.

Blarraun said:
What baffles me the most Inquisitor, is the fact that instead of mentioning that you don't wish to be typed immediately, you instead retorted to Yellow and only called it double standards when I reacted to what you were doing.

In other words, you set up a situation in which you would have been perfectly fine and "justified" acting to escalate the conflict based on others ridiculing or labeling you as a troll or other.

Bottom line: We now get it that you don't feel nice about being called ISTJ, was the solution to name the problem or was it to make you a martyr of our "unfair politics"?
Convoluted nonsense. Re-read my post. It's your job as a moderator to remain impartial, and if you can't, then don't get involved.
 

redbaron

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Inquisitor said:
I can only say this so many ways: Virtually no one here has read Psychological Types or any other typology books for that matter. This is why I keep dishing out what other authors have written. I would be very happy to discuss "different interpretations" with people who have "done their homework," but it seems most are too lazy to bother.
Sure, just use this line: "my views are whatever is written in Psychological Types and anyone who says something that doesn't agree with something in this book is wrong."

Also it's pretty debatable as to whether or not you really are happy to discuss different interpretations, since if the 'Reckful vs. Inquisitor' thread is any indication, the discussion is just going to go something like this:

Person A: I interpret MBTI in this way
Inquisitor: that's different to Jung, so you're wrong
Person A: I'm actually sourcing my ideas from someone different to Jung, so maybe you should read them in that context?
Inquisitor: those people have different ideas to Jung, so they're wrong too

*repeat until everyone's exhausted*

Inquisitor said:
Even from regular members, I still see a lack of understanding of the fundamentals. That's why I'm "touting" the opinions of the experts, so people at least know that their interpretation differs significantly from that of the experts. You want to show me how my interpretation of Jung and other authors is wrong, pick up the damn book and point it out to me instead of attacking me.
Thing is, most people don't actually care about what Jung wrote necessarily. Given the prevalence of people like Dario Nardi, McCrae etc. it's not even necessary to read Jung to understand MBTI - which isn't the same as Jung's Psychological Types. You don't like that because you thing Jung (and your interpretation of Jung) is the be-all and end-all of typology.

So here, just use this line: "my views are whatever is written in Psychological Types and anyone who says something that doesn't agree with something in this book is wrong."

Inquisitor said:
As for the opinions of experts "constantly" being redefined and highly subjective...you're basically saying that since the field is always changing, there's not much point in reading the foundational works of the field b/c they're not very relevant anymore.
Now you're just straw manning me.

There's a point to reading Jung's works - if you want to know about Jung's works. I've read Jung's Psychological Types, as well as some of his others works. I've also read a lot about MBTI and have since come to some sort of working usage and various ideas about typology that don't necessarily adhere rigidly to either one. In some cases they're aligned, in some cases not.

So if I'm going to discuss typology with someone, here's a few things I don't need to be told about, as I'm already well aware of them:

"You're saying something different to Jung"
"My interpretation of Jung doesn't agree with yours"
"The PersonalityJunkie website doesn't say that anywhere"
"Myers (or other expert defines that differently to you"

And so on and so forth. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that most people on this forum are probably in the same boat. Maybe they haven't read all of Jung - but maybe they don't think they need to read all of Jung just to discuss typology.

So instead of brow-beating people about how important it is that they read The Bible Psychological Types, you should just use this instead:

"my views are whatever is written in Psychological Types and anyone who says something that doesn't agree with something in this book is wrong."

It's really the easiest way for you to make your point, have everyone acknowledge it and then if they want to they can always engage you on the point. By simply making your point very clear from the start, as opposed to ranting about how unlearned all these other people are (in your opinion), which is inevitably going to lead to them marvelling at how much of an ISTJ you are (in their opinion).
 

Cherry Cola

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Re: MMPI-2 test

I can only say this so many ways: Virtually no one here has read Psychological Types or any other typology books for that matter. This is why I keep dishing out what other authors have written. I would be very happy to discuss "different interpretations" with people who have "done their homework," but it seems most are too lazy to bother.

Even from regular members, I still see a lack of understanding of the fundamentals. That's why I'm "touting" the opinions of the experts, so people at least know that their interpretation differs significantly from that of the experts. You want to show me how my interpretation of Jung and other authors is wrong, pick up the damn book and point it out to me instead of attacking me.

As for the opinions of experts "constantly" being redefined and highly subjective...you're basically saying that since the field is always changing, there's not much point in reading the foundational works of the field b/c they're not very relevant anymore.
So why do you want to hang out on a forum with a bunch of idiots who haven't even read typological litterature? Could it be because you enjoy being a condescending prick who writes long posts which still don't amount to much more than you being right, your opinions having value unlike others, because of your great expertise? People should assume you are well read, meanwhile you assume everyone else is an idiot and discard most all of what they write from the get go.

I mean christ, you just claimed that taking a psychological test which is usually carried out by professionals could be dangerous, in a context where we have a bunch of amateurs (including you) who obviously spend a bunch of time dabbling in areas which have to do with psychology constantly and have done so for quite a while. And this one test is dangerous....? Like come on, be for real, can you be more obvious about how youre just out to bitch with people?

I think you're kind of a troll. An ISTJ troll. You think everyone else is incompetent and trust no one but yourself because you have got the facts straight. Most obvious Si/Ne dynamic ever.

Moreover, I don't really think having read psychological types gives you any authority at all, there are other sources of information; knowledge can be garnered quite effectively through a combination of mental faculties, exercize, contemplation and a plenthora of shorter articles from the web. Especially if the topic is MBTI. I don't really care what books you've read, because it doesn't fucking matter, I'm sure plenty of people have a much greater understanding of MBTI than you do despite having read a lot less about it. Regurgigation isn't a very impressive way of demonstrating knowledge either. Though this escapes the mind of the Si dominant, who cannot fathom that it is so owing to its cognitive limitations.
 
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tbh i find the recent reaction to inquisitor's posts weird. not because its undeserved but because there is another member here who displays the same arrogance, bases his arguments off external authority all the time and continuously throws around statements like "INTPs are not into physical exercise" like they're valid in and of themselves(i think you all know who im talking about) and yet i rarely see people pointing out inconsistencies in his posts

since every thread inquisitor gets involved in as of late seems to end with a split...imo he should either be temp banned or people should stop bothering with his posts(the same way they dont with the aforementioned member)
 

Jennywocky

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I guess we just haven't had a good drama lately, so... everyone's indulging again.

You know, this could be really interesting filmed as an existential b&w drama (or an American slasher flick) utilizing marionettes and French subtitles.
 
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enter french intellectuelle inquisiteur:
*inquisiteur looks down at note scribbled on hand* "but accordinq to"
*pretends to blow nose then uncrumples tissue to read notes* "jung"


everyone else: oh my god where are my cigarettes
 
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Fukyo

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enter french intellectuelle inquisiteur:
*inquisiteur looks down at note scribbled on hand* "but accordinq to"
*pretends to blow nose then uncrumples tissue to read notes* "jung"
*pulls out underpant to read notes on seam* "you're"

everyone else: oh my god where are my cigarettes
I have no idea what this meant, but I laughed.

The guy really does act like an inquisitor. :facepalm:
 
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that was existential b&w french new wave drama i think...as per jenny's request
 

Inquisitor

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I think I have an idea that will solve this problem.

Ignore me.

I rarely if ever address any of you directly precisely b/c I know you're not a fan of my views or the way I deliver them. If you actually look closely at the way these dramas unfold, I never start anything up with the core members or the mods. The only people I regularly start up a new conversation/debate with are newcomers b/c they bring a fresh set of ideas/challenges/experiences. The problem is that you guys usually take issue with one thing or another that I say, arguments/dramas ensue, and now more recently, several of you have taken to actually insulting me directly. So obviously, something has to give. You guys are airing your grievances, which is fine. I get it. You don't like me. :)

The point is, if you think I'm such an "arrogant, condescending prick," why do you even pay attention to what I have to say?

Jennywocky, for example, (and to her credit) has been ignoring me for the past several months ever since our last altercation. She has evidently decided that I'm not the kind of person she wants to interact with. No harm, no foul. Follow her example instead of wasting your time attacking me and criticizing my point of view. Do you really think I'm suddenly going to change just because you don't like me?

Here's why I stick around: When new people (INTPs) come to this place, they're looking for answers. I enjoy learning from them, and sharing my experiences with them in turn. But I think it should be clear to any of the regular members reading this right now that if you don't like me or my point of view, you should just stop interacting with me, and I'll do the same.
 

Attreyu

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I really have a hard time picturing Inquisitor as anything but an ISTJ.
So ... I was not the only one that figured this out within my first two or three of posts of interaction in this forum ?
 

Inquisitor

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Just to let you guys know, I've put everyone on this thread except for the mods on my ignore list. Don't bother interacting with me, b/c I will not be able to see your comments. I think it's the best thing for everyone here since I appear to be "rubbing you guys the wrong way." Drama doesn't serve anyone's best interests, no matter how stimulating/interesting it might be.

We just have very different ideas/perspectives, and I think I also wounded too many here with that one thread from way back on western women, which was a very big mistake on my part and an excellent example of just how "socially gauche" an INTP can be.

I don't need/want the negativity/insults or to be ganged up on, and I certainly never intended to inflict the same on you guys (whether you believe me or not). I apologize for any distress I have caused along the way.

I promise to continue to adhere to the rules of the forum, and not give unsolicited typing advice. And if the moderators don't like something I've written, I would ask that you PM me instead of warning me right on the thread. Despite what has happened here, I will not speak ill of you to others on this forum, and I would request, in turn, that you do me the same courtesy, no matter what your personal opinion of me might be. I think if we stick to that, there should be no problems going forward. If the mods wish to speak with me further about this issue, they can PM me, but my decision is final.
 

Blarraun

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tbh i find the recent reaction to inquisitor's posts weird. not because its undeserved but because there is another member here who displays the same arrogance, bases his arguments off external authority all the time and continuously throws around statements like "INTPs are not into physical exercise" like they're valid in and of themselves(i think you all know who im talking about) and yet i rarely see people pointing out inconsistencies in his posts

since every thread inquisitor gets involved in as of late seems to end with a split...imo he should either be temp banned or people should stop bothering with his posts(the same way they dont with the aforementioned member)
That person also received and does receive criticism, although there's a certain degree of desensitisation to old, repetitive stimuli.

Additionally I think the community expressing their disapproval is a healthy way of communication and "non-proliferation".

I mean if something really annoys you, you might as well point it out or do something about it instead of going about your day as usual and pretending there's nothing there.
 

Cherry Cola

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tbh i find the recent reaction to inquisitor's posts weird. not because its undeserved but because there is another member here who displays the same arrogance, bases his arguments off external authority all the time and continuously throws around statements like "INTPs are not into physical exercise" like they're valid in and of themselves(i think you all know who im talking about) and yet i rarely see people pointing out inconsistencies in his posts

since every thread inquisitor gets involved in as of late seems to end with a split...imo he should either be temp banned or people should stop bothering with his posts(the same way they dont with the aforementioned member)
Yeah but he tends to argue rather than simply appeal to some authority. Plus he's gotten plenty of criticism on his views on typology. I mean he's detailed his views quite extensively, written a lot about the how and why of it. He's very different from someone who just tells everyone they don't know shit cause they haven't read this or that. Both may be somewhat rigid, but the source of that rigidity is quite different.
 

Reluctantly

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...
Thing is, most people don't actually care about what Jung wrote necessarily. Given the prevalence of people like Dario Nardi, McCrae etc. it's not even necessary to read Jung to understand MBTI - which isn't the same as Jung's Psychological Types. You don't like that because you thing Jung (and your interpretation of Jung) is the be-all and end-all of typology.
...
you know, I've accepted a long time ago that people will come to whatever conclusions they want when interpreting personality, which is partly why I don't share my thoughts about it too much anymore.

But Jung's types has much less to do with defining personality and much more to do with providing people a philosophical tool to frame their experiences through an understanding of how the subconscious can affect the conscious and vice versa. It's useless, without context; and to be used well requires a lot of experience with lots of different people.

Those other typologies are more or less specific descriptions. Either you fit them or you don't or you fit them mostly or fit them more than any other description or you disagree with it and have your own description or etc. On and on and so forth. I prefer Jung because it has a lot more potential for insight by letting me fill in the details as they apply and as they don't.

just fyi or whatever because Psychological Types and Personality descriptions are two different things, not in the same league as one another. So if someone dismisses Jung in favor of personality descriptions, as if they are the same thing, it's really hard for me to take them seriously. Perhaps Inquisitor feels the same.
 

The Gopher

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I think I have an idea that will solve this problem.

Ignore me.


Here's why I stick around: When new people (INTPs) come to this place, they're looking for answers. I enjoy learning from them, and sharing my experiences with them in turn. But I think it should be clear to any of the regular members reading this right now that if you don't like me or my point of view, you should just stop interacting with me, and I'll do the same.
Ignoring you wouldn't work because if you are or are not a troll it doesn't matter. Nobody is arguing with you to change your mind they are arguing with you so you don't change other peoples minds.

Assuming they are right and you are completely wrong it's dangerous to let what you say go unanswered as that will only corrupt the youth. *stops being dramatic*

If you are right well then you should continue to interact with the others so they don't corrupt the youth. *I said I was going to stop being dramatic*

It's not about you it's about preserving the Fe and mental state of the entire forum! *Man I lie about not being dramatic a lot*

However hopefully if I'm not ignored you can see why people wouldn't ignore you out of altruism.
 

onesteptwostep

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There's an easy way to settle this. If Inquisitor takes an MBTI test (of his choosing), and if it turns out that he isn't an ISTJ, everyone who bets against him receives a 1 day temp ban. If it turns out that he is ISTJ, then Inquisitor gets a 1 day temp ban.

Personally Inquisitor's a definite INTx, for sure. I think his J and P are fairly equal, but certainly, yes, it can go either way for sure. ISxx types do not survive on this forum, or are either lurking or a non-active member.
 

Hadoblado

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You realise almost nobody has faith in the validity of the tests right?
 

The Gopher

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I could get any result I want on any online MBTI test and even most types on in person tests.
 

Reluctantly

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^ well, haha, what if someone, a third party :D, a trusted third party :D:D, a trusted third party with trusted typing skills(?):D:D:D, and trusted by all participating:D:D:D:D, were to type him?

Oh wait...that's right. This would require some basis of agreement on personality first. Back to the crux of the problem, interesting.
 

The Gopher

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^ well, haha, what if someone, a third party :D, a trusted third party :D:D, a trusted third party with trusted typing skills(?):D:D:D, and trusted by all participating:D:D:D:D, were to type him?

Oh wait...that's right. This would require some basis of agreement on personality first. Back to the crux of the problem, interesting.
Jung is dead.
 

onesteptwostep

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Maybe we could look at it this way.

What happens if we all take the test and some of us align with whatever personality trait/type Inquisitor ends up with?

:)
 

onesteptwostep

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Well I guess this is why the Catholic Church has a bad wrap.

Oh and Jung is dead is a play on Nietzsche.. although it's a bit more subtle than the nonexistence of the idea of deity.

Anyway~ :angel:
 

Reluctantly

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Oh and Jung is dead is a play on Nietzsche.. although it's a bit more subtle than the nonexistence of the idea of deity.
:
Yes, but Jung hardly unified minds; he tried to be a source of dismantling confusion and creating understanding, but people just interpret his writings how they want, like anything else I guess. Hmm, I guess in a way that does kind of make him a God then. Alright,



Come to Jung children, sit on his lap. excuse the third leg,
 

Jennywocky

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The Gopher

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You know I didn't mean any of this over complicated stuff.
 

Blarraun

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I guess that means he can no longer grant power slots when someone prays to him as a cleric of typology?
I wonder what Jung's domain spell list looks like.

We can at least play as jung cleric before the twilight of the gods expansion.

Though gods never entirely die and as the stories show, can be resurrected by an ardent believer or usurpers willing to gamble everything for their powers.
 

Yellow

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Though gods never entirely die and as the stories show, can be resurrected by an ardent believer or usurpers willing to gamble everything for their powers.
... You mean they run the risk of dying Jung?
 

Inquisitor

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Ignoring you wouldn't work because if you are or are not a troll it doesn't matter. Nobody is arguing with you to change your mind they are arguing with you so you don't change other peoples minds.

Assuming they are right and you are completely wrong it's dangerous to let what you say go unanswered as that will only corrupt the youth. *stops being dramatic*

If you are right well then you should continue to interact with the others so they don't corrupt the youth. *I said I was going to stop being dramatic*

It's not about you it's about preserving the Fe and mental state of the entire forum! *Man I lie about not being dramatic a lot*

However hopefully if I'm not ignored you can see why people wouldn't ignore you out of altruism.
Gopher, I understand your concern. And it is a legitimate one.

Have you read the foundational works of typology and/or books by reputable MBTI authors? All else equal, don't you think that should be a minimum requirement for all regular members? The articles found online are (I would say) written by people who don't have a f*cking clue. Very few of them are well-versed in the original works. In addition, it's very tempting to conclude that one has understood typology simply by reading a few personality descriptions, but there's a lot more to this field than that...

As for me, because I'm relatively young, I try to make the same suggestions to newcomers that I just did to you, and if they ask for advice, I'm going to dish out what these authors wrote and also share how I've observed the functions manifesting in myself and others. So really, the only difference between me and others here is that I've made an effort to educate myself.

The good news is that it's not a very high barrier to overcome. I found reading the old stuff to be really enlightening and enjoyable.

Reluctantly said:
So if someone dismisses Jung in favor of personality descriptions, as if they are the same thing, it's really hard for me to take them seriously. Perhaps Inquisitor feels the same.
This is exactly what I'm getting at. People are dodging this central issue by ridiculing me as a Jung "fanatic" or "religious devotee." It's a cheap shot. And it's also w/o basis. Jung created the foundation, but other people expanded on it as well to great effect. As far as I can tell, except for the part about introverted irrationals being "the most useless of men," Jung didn't get anything wrong in that book. In addition, Psychological Types was written while he was relatively young, and his views apparently changed somewhat over the course of his life (but I'm not well-versed on his other works so I can't comment).

onesteptwostep said:
There's an easy way to settle this. If Inquisitor takes an MBTI test (of his choosing), and if it turns out that he isn't an ISTJ, everyone who bets against him receives a 1 day temp ban. If it turns out that he is ISTJ, then Inquisitor gets a 1 day temp ban.

Personally Inquisitor's a definite INTx, for sure. I think his J and P are fairly equal, but certainly, yes, it can go either way for sure. ISxx types do not survive on this forum, or are either lurking or a non-active member.
FWIW, I've taken the official MBTI test 3 times. I've always come up INTP. I've also taken many other unofficial personality quizzes online with the same result. I've read the old works on typology and new works on the MBTI, and I've always subjectively identified most strongly with the introverted thinking and INTP type descriptions. After all of that, could I possibly be wrong? Sure. But I feel so confident about my own assessment that it's been enough for me to take a "leap of faith" and enroll in computer science classes despite the fact that I never really had much of an interest in this topic growing up (too little Fe and too "ordinary"). Programming certainly doesn't make me feel alive the way reading typology books does, but there's something inherently satisfying about it. It would seem I've made the right decision, but there's no way I would have even considered it as a career if I hadn't studied typology.
 

Animekitty

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@Inquisitor

Do you think you could help me with my type? You have said you have only had experience with certain types, but what would be your impression of me be just from reading Jung?
 

Inquisitor

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@Inquisitor

Do you think you could help me with my type? You have said you have only had experience with certain types, but what would be your impression of me be just from reading Jung?
You've asked me this before, and I'll respond again that I don't know. I refrain from making firm individual type judgements. I watched one of your videos, and I've looked at the threads that you started. You've changed your own type assessment so many times! You spend a lot of time hanging out on this forum. Your posts do have certain themes in common (in other words, you're not totally all over map). You seem to focus on a handful of issues that are important to you, like the nature of consciousness, computing, AI, psychology, libertarian ideas, conspiracy theories...All of these are interests I have or have had in the past. I do think lack of background reading has made it difficult for you to find the proper concepts for you to root yourself to. Some questions that might help you are:

What do you habitually do most? Do you like spending most of your time alone every day? Does extensive social interaction leave you feeling drained of energy? In your video, based on what I saw of your face/head structure, I think you are on the ectomorphic side, which generally correlates to intuition. Certainly you could be an INTP, ENTP, INFJ, ISFJ just based on that, but given the nature of your posts, I would say you are a good candidate for either INTP/ENTP. Thinking seems to be predominant. If I had to choose one, I would say you are an INTP. What was your MBTI test result?

If you really are unsure of your type, I would say read the original works:

The foundational works of the Jungian type system are Jung: Psychological Types (1921), van der Hoop: Character and the Unconscious (1923) and Conscious Orientation (1939), Von Franz: Lectures on Jung’s Typology (1961/71), as well as Myers: Gifts Differing (1980).
Read books by MBTI authors like Thomson, Quenk, Keirsey, Drenth. Invest the time to educate yourself. It really pays off, but you have to put in the effort.
 

The Gopher

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Gopher, I understand your concern. And it is a legitimate one.

Have you read the foundational works of typology and/or books by reputable MBTI authors? All else equal, don't you think that should be a minimum requirement for all regular members? The articles found online are (I would say) written by people who don't have a f*cking clue. Very few of them are well-versed in the original works. In addition, it's very tempting to conclude that one has understood typology simply by reading a few personality descriptions, but there's a lot more to this field than that...
Well no I don't think it should be a minimum requirement that would be ridiculous however I do agree it would be good for people to know what they are talking about and know what they disprove of. You're not wrong in this, although I think more people have read those books than you think. I can understand the frustration when people talk about things they know nothing about however...

I think the issue that you are avoiding is if you go into what is supposedly an "INTP" environment and your methodology and style is so vehemently opposed it may be an indication that you are somehow different. That doesn't mean you are not an INTP however it at least indicates that even if you are you're somehow different from the rest of the group.

I don't agree with knee jerk labeling or insult based typing. However some of the people are genuinely looking at how you function and have having massive deja vu to ISTJ's. (Correct impression or not)

Take the MMPI-2 test thread. You immediately went with the authority of Emma despite not knowing if she was a reputable source. Then Yellow turns up who seems to be (IIRC more senior in the field) and disputes the initial claim. There seems to be a heavy set appeal to authority side of you and while it may not be wrong in many cases a lot of people associate this with ISTJ's. Now maybe ISTJ's don't appeal to authority at all and INTP's do. However these are reasons that the current INTP "environment" is naturally coming up with that doesn't technically need to read the fundamental works as it's working in a fundamentally social way.

It may be incorrect however the social environment is a result. The reasons for this result are many however it may imply a trend and I don't think you should ignore it as it doesn't rely on knowledge simply reaction.

I'm not sure if I explained that properly, basically if you are in a discussion about type then yes the foundation works and knowledge of that would be great. However on a whole the reaction we are seeing is environmental and doesn't need knowledge of the works you simply need knowledge of the social environment to work out why it's happening.
 

Inquisitor

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I think the issue that you are avoiding is if you go into what is supposedly an "INTP" environment and your methodology and style is so vehemently opposed it may be an indication that you are somehow different. That doesn't mean you are not an INTP however it at least indicates that even if you are you're somehow different from the rest of the group.
The "environment" is filled with people who are poorly informed. Unless you have the background knowledge, you don't know what to look for in terms of typing someone as an ISTJ. The insults that I'm getting are the result of the fact that I called people out on this. Nobody likes to be told that they are ignorant. Hence the backlash.

Take the MMPI-2 test thread. You immediately went with the authority of Emma despite not knowing if she was a reputable source. Then Yellow turns up who seems to be (IIRC more senior in the field) and disputes the initial claim. There seems to be a heavy set appeal to authority side of you and while it may not be wrong in many cases a lot of people associate this with ISTJ's. Now maybe ISTJ's don't appeal to authority at all and INTP's do. However these are reasons that the current INTP "environment" is naturally coming up with that doesn't technically need to read the fundamental works as it's working in a fundamentally social way.
I agreed with Emma b/c I've taken psych tests in the past, and I have a general idea of how they need to be administered. I don't know about Yellow's qualifications. ISTJs are more likely to respect authority, it's true. (past experience Si + external systems Te). Buut, INTPs have their principles, and if you violate those, they are apt to get pissed (as I am). Mine are that you need background knowledge to understand any field properly. You don't necessarily need formal education to get that, but only immature people are going to take the stance that people with formal training are generally no better than those who are autodidacts. In the vast majority of cases, it's the other way around.

It may be incorrect however the social environment is a result. The reasons for this result are many however it may imply a trend and I don't think you should ignore it as it doesn't rely on knowledge simply reaction.

I'm not sure if I explained that properly, basically if you are in a discussion about type then yes the foundation works and knowledge of that would be great. However on a whole the reaction we are seeing is environmental and doesn't need knowledge of the works you simply need knowledge of the social environment to work out why it's happening.
People on here know next to nothing about ISTJs except that they tend to respect authority. That's not sufficient grounds to firmly type me as one just b/c I believe reading what the authorities have to say is necessary to understand the field. I also believe that b/c I have very little experience with typology (only a few years), that I'm going to stick closely to what the experts wrote for the time being. As the years go on, I may end up disagreeing with some of their interpretations, but at least I have a realistic view of the limits of my own knowledge. Unfortunately, others on here don't seem to be very realistic in this department.
 

Attreyu

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How people see you *is* your personality. People don't need to read books to know what they see or feel. Human nature is the ultimate reality. It doesn't matter if the math says that bumble-bees can't fly, you never blame nature for not following stupid math predictions ... and you don't blame human nature from giving you feedback that contradicts what you thought of you. In this case you are getting it from multiple source (which should be a gift to be cherished). Reality trumps theory any day and Sunday.

In this case the collective people's perception is the bottom line; the culmination of all what personality typing is trying to accomplish. If *that* reality suggests that you are not acting INTP (and you are more like an ISTJ), then its the absolute and ultimate feedback. Your own perception of you is irrelevant. Calling others ignorant only reveals your own detachment or delusional state of grandiose self imagery.
 
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