Temperament and MBTI

[Kormak]

Simple. What temperament combo do you seem to be?

I used to know an INTP "Eric B" who came up with this elaborate system combining the temperaments model with MBTI, you can find it here:

http://www.erictb.info/temperament1s.html

http://www.erictb.info/temperament2s.html

Descriptions for blends are here: http://www.erictb.info/temperament1.html

have fun.

My blend is: THE INSPECTOR S-D (Phlegmatic-Choleric). According to Eric, this is stereotypical for INTPs.

Control: Phlegmatic Choleric
Control is the need to establish and maintain a satisfactory relationship with people in respect to control and power. Control asks two questions:

1. How many people do I want to control
2. How many people will I allow to control me?

General description of people who are Phlegmatic Choleric in Control:

1. Extremely independent and self-motivated.
2. Wants only a moderate amount of control over the lives and behaviors of others and will not tolerate any control from others..
3. Must be recognized for all achievements

Phlegmatic Choleric in Control:
Potential strengths which should be encouraged, used and developed:

1. Good leadership qualities if this is within the limitations he/she has set for himself/herself.
2. When making decisions and taking on responsibilities, he/she is aware of his/her talents and limitations and knows how to pace himself/herself.
3. Has high aspiration for achievements - but is limited by low energy supply.

Phlegmatic Choleric in Control:
Potential weaknesses which should be noted and dealt with:

1. When others push him/her beyond what he/she believes he/she is capable of doing, he/she becomes angry and stubbornly refuses to move -- will use "dry" and "biting" (sarcastic) sense of humor as a defense mechanism.

 

[Tenacity]

C-D Melancholy Choleric ?
Hmm. I'll have to revisit later.

At first I thought I was D-C Choleric Melancholy... but I'm pretty sure that's not it. Results are pointless for the sake of some superficiality in metrics and measurement. Whether or not it's a top priority for me depends. I don't "prefer" people involvement. And, I actually don't really know how to ask "direct" questions. I don't care about the obvious, would rather eat cardboard. Doing what is "right" has been the question that keeps me up at night.

I'm sure I probably relate to some of the others, I've re-read them a few times, but that sticks.
Sanguine... I wish.

____

Can you do a thread on the forms of cognition?
Have you looked at each one at depth? How can you actually tell?
i.e. from your link https://sociothena.com/forms-of-cognition-by-gulenko/ (which you mentioned in Cog's thread ethical natural morality)

It appears accurate, though I can kind of see some overlap with the others, as with anything MBTI.

 

[Kormak]

Can you do a thread on the forms of cognition?
Have you looked at each one at depth? How can you actually tell?
i.e. from your link https://sociothena.com/forms-of-cognition-by-gulenko/ (which you mentioned in Cog's thread ethical natural morality)

It appears accurate, though I can kind of see some overlap with the others, as with anything MBTI.

Sure, i'll make a tread about this as soon as I have time tomorrow. In fact I plan to make a thread about the reinin dichotomies as well, which are extra dichotomies on top of the 4 the MBTI uses. There is a calculator one can use, still requires careful consideration tho. They do help in narrowing down the type as long as one has accurate knowlege about oneself. For example I always considered myself an irrational dom (first function being a perceiving one), however introversion always ruined that pattern. I have to think about that now..

Hmm.. I don't advise typing based on Gulenko's forms of cognition and I'd like to make it clear that I made an observation that I saw as valid for that thread. In any situation like this you should go with your own judgment and not listen to me. Looking at the temperament result tho, its quite likely that you are INTJ. Have you encountered this possibility before, is J-P close for you on the spectrum?

 

[Tenacity]

In any situation like this you should go with your own judgment and not listen to me. Looking at the temperament result tho, its quite likely that you are INTJ. Have you encountered this possibility before, is J-P close for you on the spectrum?

True. It is likely. I've spent a lot of my life (years) looking into INTP women and I think that altered my beliefs about myself, yet something felt off. Maybe I'm just xNTx for life because E and J are the most mutable. I'm definitely a burnt out INTJ or an over-ambitious INTP, it seems, maybe even both because ambition and MBTI are not correlated.
___

Incoming rant about my past.

I've been speculating: realized that a boss I thought was ENTJ was actually ESTJ and not ENTJ, and that's why I didn't fit in and questioned things way more than I "needed" to.

I recently held an "ENTJ-type" role under an ESTP serial entrepreneur. This was unfortunately very eroding. They had stereotyped me as a smart ESFP of sorts (didn't really understand MBTI, yet I give this example because they treated all women very similarly, wanting and expecting them to act happy, vibrant, cheerful, nice. They expected submissiveness and that I always shine like the sun. Yeah, no. I was not allowed to not be nice. Even the slightest bit of aloofness was caught and met with distaste. Yet, if I tried to crack jokes with people around me and laugh, they immediately assumed I wasn't being "focused" enough. So, happiness became possibly the opposite of my internal natural state, but I tried my hardest to fit the cookie cutter).

On the bright side, this gave me the chance to socialize and be more engaging (as you know, ultra hard for an INTx), and do things more standard of, if I may generalize, the average women manager in the U.S. that is noticeably superior to me in fostering instantaneous emotional connection. I was over-competent and some of those people relationships really burned me out because I spent my time explaining instead of just implementing and actually getting things done, because that was the only way to get things done. I earned my accreditation / mastery in several highly relevant areas, yet most of the people I managed had gaps in knowledge to the point where my training of people every day became tiring. They had the best working bits of my knowledge, yet they weren't doing the right things with it, taking credit for it or even using it (unintentionally or intentionally, who knows, its all politics) to detract from bigger company goals, and I could only take credit for how I helped other people improve, because that's what I was "supposed" to do.

I was grossly undervalued, especially for how tirelessly and above and beyond I went to direct the strategic outcome of multiple companies simultaneously. I created results, inner paradigm shifts, introduced new ways of doing things which were similar standard facets of lean/agile manufacturing/engineering. The entrepreneur and I shared a lot in common in ambition, except that they wanted more meetings, I wanted more innovation, improvements, and fixes over pointless and dying endeavors, additions to the teams that could get the right things done. I predicted failures and attempted to prevent them before they happened, saw inefficiencies in nearly every system (and would stay up nightly to conceive of new best and worst case scenarios), huge chunks of my most prized efforts were unimplemented (I could care less about recognition) and, worst of all, there was absolutely no challenge left from anyone in the company despite their appearance of seniority. I had laid out several major paths to success for them, and they couldn't understand because they weren't instant implementations (even with team buy-in). While wildly successful, they no longer had the same kind of drive of perhaps their younger self to really do anything new, totally understandable for the stage of maturity / desire to play defense. Yet they rejected risk when logic and reasoning was clear that a move needed to be made, competition was caving in, technological debt was huge, there were areas they were cutting corners where I made it clear it was not a good idea, there were areas where it was too long to explain why things would work the way I proposed... So, yeah, it was too much dissatisfaction. The chaos did not bother me, just the lack of understanding of how to predict outcomes and how to be aware of dramatically changing environments.

So, I left that role.

Who I am now is immensely different / unrecognizable from who I was. Every year I've changed completely, and accomplished something pretty much 10x better than the last. I sound like I'm bragging, I guess I am to an extent but I don't mean it that way, the reality is I became a manager at at a very young age and managed people older than me, insane work ethic and strategic thinking has been non-negotiable, but even that was never enough. There has always been something missing. I rely on ambition, and I'm not going to let people tell me something is wrong with me for that, because I would never tell them it is wrong not to be ambitious, in fact, it is dreadful to be too ambitious because you choose stoicism over happiness. It's just how I am.

I suppose it doesn't matter what type I am though. Doesn't change anything about my life trajectory. I'd truly enjoy being able to identify with both INTP and INTJ though.

 

[Kormak]

I suppose it doesn't matter what type I am though. Doesn't change anything about my life trajectory. I'd truly enjoy being able to identify with both INTP and INTJ though.

^^ maybe this will help:

Strategists INTP and ENTJ like to make global decisions based on a prominent future and a settled goal. The focus is on the end goal, with methods to achieve it left undecided. These ppl will rather alter the method than change the goal. It is like doing whatever is required to cut through a jungle in order to reach one's destination. Both INTP and ENTJ are result orientated types, the result is what matters to them. The difference is in what type of result matters to them. INTPs will prize the idea (Ti dom), ideas are sacred to them and they will defend the idea (preference for the abstract) If they lack the resources, they will work on acquiring these to achieve the idea. INTPs are quite obstinate. ENTJs on the other hand prize resources (Te dom), if they don't have the resources, they will abandon that path toward the goal and chose the most optimal one where they do have enough.. ENTJs are more yielding and can maneuver with more ease towards the end goal, they are quite defensive about their resources (logistics), but will consider compromise and counter-ideas, this is something INTPs don't like to do. In either case, the result matters and must be reached. INTP is more likely to build a bridge across, ENTJs will just maneuver around & be more efficient with resources. "A plan never survives contact with the enemy."

Tactical types INTJ and ENTP, on the other hand, modify goals to meet the methods used. They focus on the patterns (intuitive dom), the patterns matter, the goal shifts based on the possibilities and probabilities present. They see paths through the jungle, but the goal is undecided, depends entirely on the patterns. Similar to ENTJs, ENTPs are flexible, yielding, they see many patterns and expand options. The tendency here, however, is to see on the macro level the entire jungle with any possible paths. The goal will shift based on what path is chosen and the one chosen tends to be the path of least resistance, because like ENTJs, ENTP's resources are sacred. If the going gets touch they won't waste time and effort. INTJs, however, are obstinate about the method, aka the path. This type differs from ENTP in that it is farsighted and obstinate, just like the INTP. The obstinance here is path/method related and in contrast to NTPs, the Ni dom sees one prominent path leading into a prominent future end (time intuition). Ne is present-focused, Ni sees patterns in longer time scales (trend seeking). "How you get there, not the destination.". The idea of the method > resources available to achieve it. So INTJs will acquire the resources to implement their vision.

INTPs and ENTPs are reasonable types. They will think and overthink things before committing to something. The ENTP may rethink and keep options open even then, the INTP once the idea crystalizes in their minds they will commit. It just takes more time. Everything must be considered. Overthink.

INTJs and ENTJs are decisive types. The preference here is to commit to a decision, they don't tend to get stuck in consideration. The ENTJ will often rethink the methods tho depending on the situation, however, due to Ni this "rethinking" is quick as well. Get shit done.

:/ sadly I fit the ENTP pattern precisely. (wish I was ENTJ tho). All this indecision sucks. I could do x, but then what if y is better? How do I know which one? Maybe z... yeah, z looks like a good idea... but what if..

I am currently at work, e_e and as much as I'm bored here, it is not that safe to make large posts. I'll try to expand on these dichotomies later in a megathread.