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The E-Diary of Inex

Inexorable Username

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Hey fellow aliens of planet INTPf.

This is a playground where me, myself, and I will share our thoughts, experiences, and things such as this.

I brought it to the attention of me that I post way too many threads, and subsequently run round to - not only my own threads - but everyone else’s too...and pollute those as well with massive posts at high frequencies, and perceptively high velocities.

To curb this craziness that is exhausting this all, I’m taking a leaf out of @Polaris ‘ (the plural minus the destruction of the tag) ebook and making an Inex-dedicated thread, where I can talk to myself and pretend I’m not skitzophrenic.
(That’s not funny Inex.)
[Totally. Poor taste.]
Sorry guys. You’re right.

Anyways...up until now I was doing my best to appear somewhat normal? I guess I didn’t trust you people to be able to handle my eccentricity and subjective lunacy. However...I’m starting to appreciate the fact that, possibly, some of you (cough), are closet crazies.
<— (Thanks. Now we’re not alone.)
[You’re still alone. You’re just deluding yourself with pixels.]
(Shut up. Nobody was talking to you.) —>

Well - you are all welcome to participate in my conversation with myself! I will just post things here as they occur to me, or if there’s something random I want to share that I think the community may find useful/valuable/interesting. I’ll tag you if I think something is particularly relevant to you...but know that I don’t expect/need people to respond to all of my posts. Don’t feel a sense of social obligation or concern for my strange approach at inter-forum isolation. I do this for the benefit of us all!

Also, I don’t always have time, so I can’t promise any consistency or dedication or reliability on my end - but if you have questions for me regarding media marketing/web design, or if there’s a doodle you’d like to see expressed on paper, or a concept you’d like me to mock up an infographic for..I hope you guys will feel free to ask. With my clients, I always keep in touch after we finish working, just in case they need anything in the future, because I like it when there’s little “odd jobs” that pop up in my life. Keeps things interesting. So I’m not at all burdened by questions/requests.

Got google analytics you’re trying to analyze? Take a screen shot & post. Or if you have a professional aspiration - but you don’t know how to make it marketable or how much it’s gonna cost, things of this nature, ask! I do these things for a living so I’ll do my best! My kno-ledg r belong 2 u.

PS: If your Gen Z and willing to participate in market research please let me know.
 

Inexorable Username

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Inex's Index

Here, I'll make an index of topics. I think I could end up posting engagement opportunities or challenges, or things an interested party might want to scroll back on. So rather than make you paw through pages, I'm going to list topics here, in the following format:
[ Subject : Topic - Desc (Page, Identifier) ]

To find a topic, you would go to the page number and Ctrl-F the identifier.
This is also just a good way to see if there's anything interesting/worth reading here, so you don't have to waste time filtering content of interest.

  • Message to community : Thank you - Thanking people who have made me feel most welcome here, and have opened my mind and expanded my understanding of the world. (Page 1, I-1)
 

Inexorable Username

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Inex's Future Topics?

Stuff I think I might post about. If you were reading this thread for any kind of crumb of something marginally valuable or interesting, you could technically use this to know when to not check back due to a topic being decidedly uninteresting to you.
Also, this is kind of like a to-do list for myself, or a place for reminders - I can theoretically use it to remind myself to respond to an interesting subject of discussion, without killing my schedule by refusing to leave this forum until I have a sense of closure.

Future Topic : Designing a website to freely express ideas...
 

Inexorable Username

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A Thank-You Letter from Inex to the Aliens

I just want to thank everyone on this forum - especially the people who’ve engaged me the most! @Rebis @Kormak @peoplesuck @Marbles @moody @EndogenousRebel @Cognisant
@Polaris

Hope I’m not missing anyone there...guy with the rainbow skeleton, we’re getting there - but I’m not intimately familiar with your text boxes yet so I would call us casual acquaintances. You are a lovely acquaintance. I like you.

Also, @Adaire - I feel a strange fondness for you. Like kin. You called me out on my arrogance and I took your advice to heart. I hope you hunt down my responses and continue to bullshit check, because there’s not a lot of people that aren’t afraid to speak their opinion. So refreshing. I’m sorry if you hate that I called you out like this. My internet etiquette sucks, I imagine. I haven’t had much practice.

Anyways, to make a long story short, I came looking for personal growth. What I got was a thing I never knew I needed. It’s like my life is a puzzle with pieces missing, and this forum filled in a whole chunk simply for what it is.

Since being here, I’ve had the most amazing...transition? In mental thinking. I live in relative solitude (I actually live with my family, but I isolate.) I love playing with my mind, but until recently, I never really had anyone else to play with. Even just reading my posts, I realized that the way I write sounds like I’m talking to myself.

Well, I’m quite used to talking to myself (and I enjoy it immensely) [shut up Inex. That sounds pathetic]
But me, myself, and I never have conversations this enriching. Myself and I tend to agree with me. You other people actually bring up contention points, things I’ve never thought of, and even rephrase my words in this way that really makes me think.

I actually genuinely enjoy that you guys often disagree with me. I wish I could impress upon you all how weirdly excited I get about it.

See...in my life, I do try to engage other people in conversations whereby I would be able to share some of the things I’ve been reading or the philosophical thoughts I have had - but people generally just
(A) Nod and smile
(B) Say “Well, don’t know much about it (but I do know how the liberal left is brainwashing people so let me tell you all about how unjust it is and why you really need to vote. If you’re conservative.)
(C) Agree.

Every once in a while, somebody throws a devils advocate curveball into the mix, potentially just to tease me, and then when I enthusiastically engage in the argument they realize I’m a lunatic and immediately agree, just so I don’t get too riled up.
(It’s like if you threw a tennis ball for an overstimulated Jack Russel Terrier, and then just immediately turned around and walked away)
[...but - but - I thought you were going to play with me!!!...]
(cricket)

I have a lot of outlets. I have two kitties for sleepy snuggles so I don’t get weird, sad, lonely longings for a hot-bodied male human in my bed. I have clients for when I want to pretend to be an adult. I have my musical stuff for singing my heart out and humbling myself on the piano. I have my art stuff for...well you get the point.

But I only now started realizing how little I respect my need for intellectual stimulation. I’ve viewed it as a “weakness”, something that causes me to procrastinate and get side-tracked, and alienates me socially. All I’ve done is try very hard to squash that side of myself, while losing the battle on a near daily basis, and indulging in my own high voltage thoughts.

Since coming here, I’ve learned that having creative outlets and companion outlets is not enough, and I’ve also learned that there are actually, truly, other people out there who really enjoy thinking, learning, and things such as this.

This has shifted my perspective from feeling like the alien of an exploded planet
(Like Superman)
[But uncool.]
(And with no super powers..)
[And not buff, or manly.]
(...So basically nothing like superman.)
to feeling like an alien that belongs to a race of other aliens who are sprinkled across the globe.

In short, I’m super fond of you all, and all your many personality quirks and philosophies, self doubts, and journeys of personal growth...

You’re all very cool people.
I appreciate your mentalities, and the way you type your white little words in your black little boxes. You go guys.
(Heartfelt)

~ SinSurly, Inex
 

Cognisant

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I met this girl on a dating site recently and she's nice but everything about her is very default, she loves her family, she likes cooking, her favorite TV show is Modern Family, etc. I've oh so carefully hinted at my weirdness (e.g. saying I'm a big fan of Isaac Arthur) but I don't get the impression that she would like to talk about concepts much less engage in philosophical debate, she's just a normal perfectly fine girl.
But she will never understand.

Point is we need to make a weirdness bomb or something to that effect, any ideas?
 

Inexorable Username

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I met this girl on a dating site recently and she's nice but everything about her is very default, she loves her family, she likes cooking, her favorite TV show is Modern Family, etc. I've oh so carefully hinted at my weirdness (e.g. saying I'm a big fan of Isaac Arthur) but I don't get the impression that she would like to talk about concepts much less engage in philosophical debate, she's just a normal perfectly fine girl.
But she will never understand.

Point is we need to make a weirdness bomb or something to that effect, any ideas?
So, essentially, what I'm hearing from you is that she seems to be a one dimensional person. Also, she doesn't seem to be much of an intellectual.

I dunno about the "weird bomb" thing. Is she a cautious or reserved person, maybe? A weird bomb could be a bad idea. I think a lot of girls can be kind of sketched out about immediate weirdness. It really depends, I think, on how open/adventurous the girl is.

I think the situation deserves more consideration, potentially. I mean, if I'm reading between the lines correctly - what you're really after is to see whether she's weird too - or if she even likes a weird guy. In which case, you're not necessarily looking at expressing yourself more openly, but rather, encouraging her to express herself more openly. Dropping a bombshell on someone might not necessarily be the best way to get them to express themselves. I could see how you could get too philosophical, deep, or scientific on her, and she might feel like a fish out of water, and worry about coming across as a fool. Better to encourage her personality to unfold, before you dump more of your personality on her head. No?

Well if you're dead set on the bombshell, I would say - just pick a topic like crowd intelligence, and have a field day enthusing about it. I inadvertently use this method in social situations constantly, and it is guaranteed to identify me as weird. And potentially dangerous, judged by the way people edge away from me. Just kidding.

Anyways, I would try to encourage her to step out of her shell. Maybe she's a lot more interesting than she seems at a glance.
So...is it cool if I share my thoughts on what I would do?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's what my approach would be:
Are you okay with dating someone who isn't an intellectual?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

(1) Yes :

You have to find other common ground.
My advice:
  • Give up on the idea of using her as an intellectual outlet.
  • Be willing to sacrifice discussing philosophy, science, etc. - your doing so may make her feel stupid around you. That could make her feel insecure, which could make her jealous, and the sex will suck (G).
Maybe try to answer these questions:
In terms of what both parties can enjoy...
  1. What will we talk about? (ie: birds, travel)
  2. How will we spend our time together? (watching tv episodes, exploring new places)
Also, consider whether or not you've ever dated a non-intellectual. It may change the level of caution you should exert moving forward. (I've dated two non-intellectuals and decided it wasn't for me. Happy to share my experience if you would find it helpful.)

If you have never dated one, but you're willing to try, my advice - go slow.
  • Don't be hasty with dishing out more than average levels of affection.
  • Don't progress quickly, sexually.
  • Don't meet friends and family (or especially kids in the family).
  • Dates should be average - not too fancy, not too intimate.
I'll provide my reasoning for this in a bit. You can skip the reasoning if you "get it", which is why I'm putting it at the bottom, to make the best use of your time.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
(2) No :

Then you need to find out whether she is an intellectual...and by that - I don't mean whether she's educated, or well-read, or verbose, or even very philosophical...what matters is that she takes pleasure in the art of thinking. Actually, a girl who is less intellectually developed, but clearly enjoys the activity, can be a treat to date, I think.
(view subheading at the bottom if you want to read my personal experience anecdote about this).

First question.
Is she, in fact, an intellectual, but hiding it?
Yes - why? (Shyness, insecurity, misinterpreted you as not being intellectual)
No - why? (might not realize that she has the capacity for it or she might not realize that she could have intellectual conversations with men because of the way men view women.)

Shyness -
Give time and genuine compliments. I can provide you with many if you need them and don't know what to say. My soul sister was painfully shy for most of her life. Shy girls open up when they learn they can trust you not to hurt them, and that trust takes time. Ask her more about herself than you talk about yourself. Your genuine interest, itself, is a compliment.

Insecurity -
Same, but adding to that, demonstrate that you are a very non-judgmental person (if you indeed are), that you think life and nature is beautiful (which I think you do), and that you have a lot of respect for people who talk about their feelings. (Then maybe at a later stage, ask some leading questions to find out if and why she may be traumatized. It can be relevant in terms of getting serious.)

Misinterpreted you -
Rather than arrogantly proclaiming "I'm an intellectual", which is apparently a turn off for people, maybe share an anecdote with her about how you discovered your MBTI, and how you felt like the results you got were really fitting, because you've always enjoyed philosophical conversations and talking about subjects like x. Then, follow this up by asking her if she ever found out what her MBTI was.
That way, the subject isn't about how smart you are - instead, it's about your personality, and more importantly, it's about learning more about her personality, so it doesn't really come across as bragging or being conceded/condescending.

She's an undiscovered intellectual -
Ask open-ended questions of increasing difficulty.
The first few will break the ice, the next few will a bit intellectual-ish but very easy to answer, and then you can tie it off with a deeper question that requires real thought and expressing an opinion (but is definitely opinion based with no right or wrong answers).

She's never met a man like you who would respect her and see her as a friend and an equal -
Easy. Bring up gender. Say that you think it's a shame that some men believe that men and women can't be friends, and you think it's ridiculous that there's actually still some guys, in this modern day and age, that think that men are smarter than women.
I wouldn't drone on about it too much until you get a reaction from her. Just a couple of simple statements like that....you could segway into that statement through the vector of modern family. Praise modern family for being hilarious, but not in a homophobic, sexist way like so many other tv shows. (enter gender opinion statement)

Examples of escalating questions:
Q1: If you were to rank your top 3 favorite characters from modern family, who would they be? (Icebreaker. Will demonstrate what qualities she prizes in people.)
Q2: I met someone at the supermarket yesterday who homeschools their kid. I wonder if homeschooling is better than public schooling. I never really thought much about it. Have you? (Convo starter. Raises a topic that almost anyone can relate to, requires no real knowledge, and concerns child development - a subject that would typically be easier to discuss for a majority of women, over something like...I dunno. Astrophysics. Cars.)
Q3 : Okay, so here's a question I sometimes like to ask people for fun. Which do you value more, truth, or happiness?
* For this question, I like to start with something like the preceding sentence, because if you just throw this on people they often respond like a deer in the headlights. Like I asked them when they last pleasured themselves, or something. *

----------------------------------------------------------------------

The nice thing about asking questions like these is that you're learning more about who she is as a person, and how she thinks. You may find out that she could have more layers than you thought she did - which could be super fun and exciting. Or maybe you'll find out that she's just more of an extroverted girl - maybe more of a sensing type, and her idea of a good time would be to go to an arcade, or go shopping, rather than sitting at home and chit chatting. I don't think I've met very many extroverted intellectuals. It could be good for you to date an extrovert. Just from my bias opinion, it seems to me like extroverts are more comfortable with having a bit of a superficial relationship, and they don't seem to take life quite so seriously. An extroverted personality could help you discover aspects of yourself that you never knew existed, without so many emotions, deep connections, and other such strings attached.
But you would have to be sure that the fact that things are "not so serious" is understood by both parties. You could just say "I'm not really looking to get too serious with someone", and I think many extroverted women would not be deterred by that.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
That pretty much concludes the entirety of my response.
The rest of this isn't essential to my point, it's just icing on
the cake.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

My Anecdote :
I knew a couple like that, and the guy (who was shy) really seemed to enjoy bringing the girl into his brain space, and telling her about all he'd learned and discovered. She, in turn, seemed to he was just the cats meow and the best thing since sliced bread, because he really valued her intelligence. I've personally been there myself. An intellectual guy showed me the ropes - and I can attest that the experience, as a girl, is amazing and very romantic. A lot of women don't ever get the sense that a guy sees them as an intellectual playmate - someone who has a special brain capable of great understanding...

----------------------------------------------------------------------
My reasoning for "taking things slow" :

Truth is, the first 3-4 weeks can be exciting for anyone, but you need to look for something that the partner has that can clearly be identified as something that is worth making sacrifices for. Maybe she's beautiful, but the issue with beauty is that, to be super rude about the whole thing, after a few fucks the novelty wears off and you're looking at the same face day after day. Unless you really, really love someone, people don't generally get more beautiful. Beauty is an immediately depreciating asset in the psychological department. (This is going to trigger people...I can see it now XD)

No, you need someone that has an asset that is going to increase in value. The only reason people date is for emotional enjoyment (G). So she needs to have qualities that will make you feel emotionally fulfilled. Having your intellectual needs met is a form of emotional fulfillment, but I bet there are others too. For instance, her passion for :raven04:.

Taking things slowly will give you time to unwrap her like a human package and find out what's inside. Then you can make a reasonable decision.

The alternative is that you woo her, screw her, nurture a sense of hope, trust, and love, and then you decide that she's not what you were looking for and you grow steadily more bitter by the day while you try to work out how to let her down easily so you can move on. Lesser men like you get reduced to cheating, ghosting, or worse - hanging around out of cowardice and then devolving into awful boyfriends who criticize the woman constantly by calling her stupid and all sorts of things, because they're secretly miserable and feel resentful at being confined to a relationship that is making them so unhappy. (These guys seem to get cheated on more because their girlfriends eventually go out looking for someone else to make them feel loved and help them leave their shitty relationship without the threat of being alone with their tears).

I don't have you pegged as this kind of guy. I doubt you would ask questions like this if you were. So instead, you could end up getting stuck in a situation where you either have to (A) Settle, (B) Feel guilty about breaking someone's heart, or (C) Adopt a cold-hearted view by shutting out your empathy, and therefore run the risk of devaluing the pain and feelings of another in a long term way, by making that behavior a familiar course of action, and an option for future relationships.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Girl advice (feel free to skip)

Keeping things from becoming too intimate/serious:
Don't expressly tell them that they're unique or special.
ie: I've never met such a good artist, or you're the prettiest girl I've ever dated.
Instead, you could say: You're so talented, how long have you been an artist?
And - when I saw your picture online, it really stood out to me. I just thought - wow, she's really pretty.

Doing things this way, you're not expressing to her that you saw this immediate spark and there was something special that clicked between the two of you. However, you're being honest, and flattering her - which, in my personal opinion, you should.

I think men should be kind and flattering in an honest way, for a reason.
Firstly, I think for any woman with a head on her shoulders, seeing a demonstration of genuine kindness is a good sign, regardless of her confidence. So many men out there harbor secretive agendas for bedding women, anti-female ideologies, bitterness/resentfulness towards women, etc. It can be really tough to pick those guys out of the crowd, because the sexually successful of them realize that if they portray a hint of their true nature, women that value themselves are likely to turn their nose up.

Secondly, it's unusual, I think, for women to enter into a relationship with absolutely no reservations whatsoever. Reservations usually take the form of lack of trust, fear of getting hurt, or low self-esteem, from what I can tell. In all of these situations, just telling a person about the good impressions you have of them (without getting too soulful about it), can be the remedy. I think a lot of guys aren't well-practiced in saying such things. I think some guys are maybe a bit uncomfortable about being "too nice".

Being too nice is usually more synonymous with lacking self-esteem/confidence, and any time someone lacks confidence in themselves (male or female), it always gives the other person pause to wonder why. If the guy appears to be spineless and cowardly, then they're not willing to stand up for what's right, and that's not attractive. So there's a big difference between being kind to a woman, making her feel good about herself, and showing her you value her...and being a person who is just too insecure to speak their minds or be an individual, because they're so afraid they'll get rejected, that they just knee-jerk agree with people and try to buy them things or lie to to fluff up their ego, just so that they maybe, maybe won't have to suffer any kind of disapproval. (Btw, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. A lot of people have a shy stage, and a lot of people have been hurt. I'm just saying that I think that's what women mean by "too nice". That - and men who absolutely would never break any kind of rules or take any kind of risks or chances...it all comes down to having the courage to unashamedly be true to yourself.)

PS: I feel really honored that you asked me! Thanks! That was sweet of you. I love trying to help guys with girl stuff, because I feel like guys usually ask other guys...but other guys don't always empathize easily with women, so they have a tendency to resort to techniques and tactics, which can often shoot a person in the foot, because it turns a nice guy into a calculating person who has an agenda.
 

Inexorable Username

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Deleted. o_o
Got self-conscious about it. Now you will never know....muhuhahaha!
 

Adaire

backish
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Also, @Adaire - I feel a strange fondness for you. Like kin. You called me out on my arrogance and I took your advice to heart. I hope you hunt down my responses and continue to bullshit check, because there’s not a lot of people that aren’t afraid to speak their opinion. So refreshing. I’m sorry if you hate that I called you out like this. My internet etiquette sucks, I imagine. I haven’t had much practice.
I don't mind, but I don't think the esteem is warranted. I'm just a fickle curmudgeon.

I'm very glad for all the newer members though, yourself especially. You're all quite energetic, cute even. A new era, a new purpose for the forum I hope. Change and self discovery are very good things. I wish you well.
 

Inexorable Username

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Also, @Adaire - I feel a strange fondness for you. Like kin. You called me out on my arrogance and I took your advice to heart. I hope you hunt down my responses and continue to bullshit check, because there’s not a lot of people that aren’t afraid to speak their opinion. So refreshing. I’m sorry if you hate that I called you out like this. My internet etiquette sucks, I imagine. I haven’t had much practice.
I don't mind, but I don't think the esteem is warranted. I'm just a fickle curmudgeon.

I'm very glad for all the newer members though, yourself especially. You're all quite energetic, cute even. A new era, a new purpose for the forum I hope. Change and self discovery are very good things. I wish you well.
I dunno. In this climate where everyone is walking on eggshells, there’s a streak of defiance in people that speak their mind. It resonates with me.

And fickleness? I’m probably the most fickle person I know. The fickle trait doesn’t deserve its bad reputation. People can be highly moral and still be fickle, and I think having that quality is a symptom of people that are committed to the truth. Being able to change on a dime - it’s a valuable skill to have. It’s the reason that people change that matters.

So, if you’re bold enough to speak your mind, and agile enough to change it quickly once more information comes to light - is that not admirable?

I think it could definitely be a new age for the forum, assuming the forum was somewhat dead-ish previously, and it makes me feel fuzzy that you think we’re cute. What a sugary little treat of a compliment.

I hope you’ll hang around and that we’ll hear more from you.
 

Inexorable Username

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@moody
Is there anything more difficult to sing than this? I’ve recently become obsessed with this song. It’s so beautiful it breaks my heart, because I don’t think I could ever be that good, but now I don’t want to ever stop trying to attain it...because in a weird way, I have some inexplicable craving to feel how this song feels when you sing it as a master.
I used to be something of a Beethoven fan because of moonlight sonata, but I cheated on him with Mozart and due to this song, I feel like I can’t go back.

 

moody

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@moody
Is there anything more difficult to sing than this? I’ve recently become obsessed with this song. It’s so beautiful it breaks my heart, because I don’t think I could ever be that good, but now I don’t want to ever stop trying to attain it...because in a weird way, I have some inexplicable craving to feel how this song feels when you sing it as a master.
I used to be something of a Beethoven fan because of moonlight sonata, but I cheated on him with Mozart and due to this song, I feel like I can’t go back.


That’s famous for being one of the hardest arias in the repertoire, for sure. I can’t know if it’s “the” hardest because I’m not a vocalist myself, but I wouldn’t be suprised.

I’m not a huge fan of Mozart, but I love Don Giovanni. He has some really great things.

Lady of the Night’s technique demands are gnarly, but there’s also other types of difficulty throughout the vocal rep. It’s just hard to label anything as “the hardest” because execution of a piece is multi-faucetted.

For example:
 

redbaron

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this seems more like a diary than a dairy
 

Rebis

Blessed are the hearts that can bend
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I'm quite selfish with my thoughts, thinking about posting a piece and emulating people's responses is a lot less taxing and you can do while you'r walking, which I find I do a lot of.
 

EndogenousRebel

We're all trying our best. Aren't we?
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Happy for your self-growth. Really, getting things out into the physical world is really useful. I'm sure XNTPs are one of the few that will poke holes in your reasoning without seemingly attacking you, they'll offer up a better way of thinking instead of just criticizing.

I wouldn't mind discussing how to make a website. My field is media production and the more services I can offer up the better, I'd probably just be in the design phase though.
People usually scan websites in a Z pattern, and most will click off fast if their interest isn't peaked, making something intuitive (surprise) requires empathy, like asking, how will the majority of people navigate the website? I could always use CMS' but those are super limiting and my coding skill is nowhere near the skill cap of things like Wordpress.
 

Ex-User (14663)

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Should I hit on women at work or no

Sometimes I feel like I'm hanging out with a particular woman quite a lot and it's rude not to hit on her, is this a reasonable worry?
 

Inexorable Username

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Should I hit on women at work or no

Sometimes I feel like I'm hanging out with a particular woman quite a lot and it's rude not to hit on her, is this a reasonable worry?
Wait, are you asking me? Is this the second person asking me for girl advice? Have I died and gone to heaven? This is super flattering. I feel - I feel...hmmm...female. Neat!
(You’re probably just asking the world in general but that’s okay. I’ll still concededly pretend this has something to do with me.)

Is she hitting on you? Does she make a lot of eye contact, touch her hair while she’s talking to you, and laugh at your jokes even when you’re objectively aware they’re stupid? Does she bring up ex-boyfriends? If so, she may be hitting on you.

A lot of women will flirt without realizing it though. I’m one of them -_- ...
Sometimes the body flirts before the mind has caught up.

For me it’s best if a guy drops a hint that he’s interested, but doesn’t pursue too soon. I think the best hints are when he indicates that he likes my intelligence/personality. Comments on my appearance actually make me feel uncomfortable because they make me feel like this guy is always going to notice what I’m wearing, and it makes me self-conscious. (What if I look fat that day?)

Are you interested in the employee? I feel like it probably goes without saying - but definitely don’t flirt if you’re not. It would be mortifying for a girl to nurture a crush for you under the understanding that you’re interested in her, only to find out that you’re not.

I like it when guys have the confidence to mildly express a bit of interest, but then just hang around with me like a friend and not try to drop more hints or make things escalate. I have this thing whereby when I steadily start feeling more and more comfortable around a guy, like we’re real friends, and I feel like he actually likes me as a person and cares about what I say, I will generally eventually start having an occasional sex fantasy about the person. XD...sorry, I know. TMI. But it’s like - when it comes time for sex fantasies, the guys that get the most screen time in my real life inevitably creep into my consciousness regardless of whether I consented to having them there. There’s something sexy about guys that legitimately enjoy being around you and think that you are a cool friend.

I think I eventually start subconsciously sending signals. Consciously, I’m too much of a lady to flirt with a guy. Physically, I’m a mammal. (Oh well. I can’t help it. I was born that way.)
It probably takes me anywhere from 5-7 days to realize I’m attracted to the guy and I’ve been probably sending him signals without realizing it.

What sucks about that, is some poor guys actually jump on that opportunity, catch me completely off guard, and put me on the spot by asking me out. Then I feel awkward because I hadn’t mentally considered the fact of dating the person and I don’t want to commit to anything and then have a change of heart. It’s no good.

So, after taking a good look at myself and my behavior, I’ve developed a formula for men that I love to share with them so they can be more successful with nonsensical females such as myself.

Drop a hint, be friends, and wait it out. Once you suspect that I’m flirting, start the timer on the incubation period.
Either I will eventually give you hints verbally (I’m single. Yeah. I love it..oh?! You’re single too? Imagine that. Another thing we have in common.) or the incubation period runs out and you can rest assured that I’ve mentally processed our relationship and come to a verdict.

I can’t claim all women are like this, but I know it’s not just me, and I know that a lot of guys get confused and frustrated having to deal with my kind. It makes sense.

So...I try to help, if I can. I know some females can be very complicated and, as a guy, that makes things tough - especially in this day and age with all the sexism feminism stuff.

Oh! Men I’ve talked to have voiced the opinion that if they don’t make a move someone else will. I would say that’s probably a valid concern to some degree, but most factors being equal, I really am much, much more likely to agree to date someone who has been my friend. I don’t want to get duped or used or date a serial killer, for instance, so I really prefer guys that I know personally, and who I know actually like my personality and probably wouldn’t want to hurt me.
 

Inexorable Username

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I'm quite selfish with my thoughts, thinking about posting a piece and emulating people's responses is a lot less taxing and you can do while you'r walking, which I find I do a lot of.
How do you type and walk at the same time? Admirable.
I know I’m physically capable of this but my brain can’t handle processing communication and walking at the same time. Maybe when god was handing out brains he gave you a special one. Like a shiny Pokemon, organ style.

Also what do you mean by emulating peoples’ responses?
 

Inexorable Username

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Happy for your self-growth. Really, getting things out into the physical world is really useful. I'm sure XNTPs are one of the few that will poke holes in your reasoning without seemingly attacking you, they'll offer up a better way of thinking instead of just criticizing.

I wouldn't mind discussing how to make a website. My field is media production and the more services I can offer up the better, I'd probably just be in the design phase though.
People usually scan websites in a Z pattern, and most will click off fast if their interest isn't peaked, making something intuitive (surprise) requires empathy, like asking, how will the majority of people navigate the website? I could always use CMS' but those are super limiting and my coding skill is nowhere near the skill cap of things like Wordpress.
WordPress doesn’t require much coding. You have the option to write code, and it makes pages faster if you do it that way, but generally speaking the best way to do it is to code subpages and use a template for the main ones. The template is much faster and easier to use plugins with.

I personally hate having to work with WordPress templates, but WordPress is sort of an unfortunate fact of life at this point. If I had my way, we’d all be writing HTML and CSS. But nowadays, my way is old.

I’ve sketched out some concepts for how I’d do a social forum-like website for intellectuals. I need to do some mockups next.

It’s cool to meet another media marketing professional! Send me some of your portfolio pieces?
 

Inexorable Username

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@moody
Is there anything more difficult to sing than this? I’ve recently become obsessed with this song. It’s so beautiful it breaks my heart, because I don’t think I could ever be that good, but now I don’t want to ever stop trying to attain it...because in a weird way, I have some inexplicable craving to feel how this song feels when you sing it as a master.
I used to be something of a Beethoven fan because of moonlight sonata, but I cheated on him with Mozart and due to this song, I feel like I can’t go back.


That’s famous for being one of the hardest arias in the repertoire, for sure. I can’t know if it’s “the” hardest because I’m not a vocalist myself, but I wouldn’t be suprised.

I’m not a huge fan of Mozart, but I love Don Giovanni. He has some really great things.

Lady of the Night’s technique demands are gnarly, but there’s also other types of difficulty throughout the vocal rep. It’s just hard to label anything as “the hardest” because execution of a piece is multi-faucetted.

For example:
Uhhh...is this what happens when singers get possessed?
 

Minuend

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Should I hit on women at work or no

Sometimes I feel like I'm hanging out with a particular woman quite a lot and it's rude not to hit on her, is this a reasonable worry?
Yeah, that's defintively offensive. You need to hit on any unattractive woman at your work space bacause she's a woman and will file a rape report on you if you don't :ahh: Plus you have no value as human if you don't hit on everyone who you spend slightly more time with than others. That's normal life and everyone does that. Everyone suffers like that everyday, it's perfectly normal and have nothing to do with your personal problems or anything.
 

EndogenousRebel

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It’s cool to meet another media marketing professional! Send me some of your portfolio pieces?
Honestly it's an interest I've had for a long time, combined with the fact that I've been on the internet so long, all the things I've made weren't made with the idea of showing it to an employer but just for anyone who'd happen to see it. As a result I feel like it's mostly half-assed stuff. So I'm starting anew and haven't really made anything recently. I have some potential photography samples, but that pool is small so I haven't really trimmed it down to the ones I know other people and I like. I inevitably will share something here so stick around

EDIT:working with first client maybe I'll share those results.
 

Inexorable Username

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Should I hit on women at work or no

Sometimes I feel like I'm hanging out with a particular woman quite a lot and it's rude not to hit on her, is this a reasonable worry?
Yeah, that's defintively offensive. You need to hit on any unattractive woman at your work space bacause she's a woman and will file a rape report on you if you don't :ahh: Plus you have no value as human if you don't hit on everyone who you spend slightly more time with than others. That's normal life and everyone does that. Everyone suffers like that everyday, it's perfectly normal and have nothing to do with your personal problems or anything.
I'm assuming he wants to hit on her...otherwise, why would he ask? Granted, it's a weird way to ask - but you wouldn't ask about hitting on someone if you didn't actually want to hit on them. You wouldn't want to risk hitting on someone and them getting the wrong impression about it. Maybe Serac is thrown off by something about her, and doesn't want to admit that he wants to hit on her. :love:
 

Inexorable Username

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It’s cool to meet another media marketing professional! Send me some of your portfolio pieces?
Honestly it's an interest I've had for a long time, combined with the fact that I've been on the internet so long, all the things I've made weren't made with the idea of showing it to an employer but just for anyone who'd happen to see it. As a result I feel like it's mostly half-assed stuff. So I'm starting anew and haven't really made anything recently. I have some potential photography samples, but that pool is small so I haven't really trimmed it down to the ones I know other people and I like. I inevitably will share something here so stick around

EDIT:working with first client maybe I'll share those results.
I hope you will!
 

Inexorable Username

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I think I'm going to share my vision for this new website idea I have - but it's going to have to wait while I food up. I got distracted today and failed to do the food thing, and now the body is making a fuss about it. So I'll do that, then, in theory, I'll be back.
 

Minuend

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I'm assuming he wants to hit on her...otherwise, why would he ask? Granted, it's a weird way to ask - but you wouldn't ask about hitting on someone if you didn't actually want to hit on them. You wouldn't want to risk hitting on someone and them getting the wrong impression about it. Maybe Serac is thrown off by something about her, and doesn't want to admit that he wants to hit on her. :love:
Perhaps. Though I think you should extend your disbelief only so much. Nothing good comes from believing people's intentions are innocent all the time. Serac doesn't strike me as the type who falls in love and sticks to that girl easily. He strikes me as the type who attempts to decode multiple women without really being interested in them. His main motivation for getting a girl isn't finding an equal soul mate, it's, well, getting a girl that caters to his beliefs. Who fits his mold of what women should be.
 

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@Inexorable Username very interesting read :). I like what you said about taking it chill and show interest here and there while having no stake in the outcome and not taking it too seriously.

And yes, I would say I'm interested in her. She's a smart, hard-working girl and we go to the gym together and stuff. She wouldn't be the type to outright flirt though, she has a sort of polite/formal exterior. I love it when I'm able to break that exterior and make her laugh and blush though. But having said all that, I think we both take our work quite seriously and we're both super busy all the time, which is why I'm hesitant to play around with this sort of stuff in the workplace.
 

Inexorable Username

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@Inexorable Username very interesting read :). I like what you said about taking it chill and show interest here and there while having no stake in the outcome and not taking it too seriously.

And yes, I would say I'm interested in her. She's a smart, hard-working girl and we go to the gym together and stuff. She wouldn't be the type to outright flirt though, she has a sort of polite/formal exterior. I love it when I'm able to break that exterior and make her laugh and blush though. But having said all that, I think we both take our work quite seriously and we're both super busy all the time, which is why I'm hesitant to play around with this sort of stuff in the workplace.
Hah! See - I knew it!
So, yeah, she sounds like she might be a bit more like me then. Work is always my number 1 priority, and I don't like it when guys can't respect that. I've told people I've been very busy with my work/non-profit, and they've been pushy about trying to get me to go do leisure activities. I'm not dating anymore, anyways, but it's annoying when someone treats you like that because it means that they don't respect what you're saying, at best, and at worst, that they think you're lying to them.

I'm not a very money-orientated person, and I think sometimes my work ethic comes across as if I am. It's not the case, though - I'm ambitious in the sense that I want to hone my skills and I'm constantly working to improve myself as a person. I love efficiency. A lot of women who are similar to me that I've met in a professional context share my love of organization and designing more efficient, effective ways of doing things.

Since I have this sort of personality, I can tend to be impatient with people that are eager to waste my time on activities that are sheerly for entertainment purposes. Going to the movies, for instance, is not the kind of date I would enjoy. Why spend time with the person if you can't even ask them questions to learn more? I would be much more interested in going out for coffee, and discussing an intellectual topic.

This woman sounds like she's ambitious. What motivates that emotion? If I were trying to nurture a deeper bond with her, I would start by finding out what it is she takes pride in, and I would use that information to figure out what emotionally motivates her to achieve what she's achieved. She might be motivated by money, in which case, I bet she has an expensive dream for her future. Maybe, like me, she's made blueprints of her dream house. (I've met two other women who have done this, apparently, it's not even that weird!) Maybe she wants to be an acclaimed professional in her field. Peer respect, professional dominance, that sort of a thing. Or, maybe she is like me in that, for her, the joy in living is the thrill of pursuing greater personal accomplishments, and so she feels deeply driven to learn, enhance her skills, and maybe even pick up new talents or test out experiences she's never had before.

Do you know her MBTI? What profession is she in?

It sounds to me like you genuinely like this woman, as a person, and that your interest in her has perhaps been growing in relation to the time you've spent around her. If that's the case, I would say that this is a very valuable relationship for you, because it seems to me that most instances wherein people find partners who are marriage material, they make that decision based on the fact that the relationship gets better, and better over time. The attraction is more than skin deep. As I think I mentioned before - I'm of the opinion that a pretty exterior doesn't get you very far in the worthwhile long-term relationship sense. After a few weeks of staring at the same face, a person gets acclimated - no matter how beautiful the individual is. I think that's when men get bored. So there has to be something more valuable than appearance that appreciates over time.

If you've found someone like that, then, perhaps your goal should be to discover what it is about her that makes her value appreciate in your eyes, and really try to discover her, tactfully, slowly, and calmly, from the inside-out. Questions are good, but I think that, a man of your intellect, if you just spend time thinking about her and empathizing with her to where you are trying to determine where her behavior stems from and what that says about her values, personalities, etc. - it's both more interesting, and I think, often, more insightful. Also, when you come places like here and you ask questions like you asked, it stimulates conversations that will encourage you to explore your memories with her in a more in-depth fashion, and you can get access to people who may have an easier time empathizing with the kind of person she is, and interpreting some of her behaviors.

Edit: To conclude that thought, I've found that when you ask people questions directly, they often tell you who they want to be, not who they really are. Also, very few people actually seem to understand themselves on a deep level. Most people are too biased or too confident to consider their psychological shortcomings, or accept that they are influenced by them. Someone might tell you that they're a good cook - and it really turns out that they just seem to aspire to be a good cook, and really value that skill, so they want you to think that they might be better at it than they actually are. I don't think people mean to do that, it's just sort of a knee-jerk subconscious reaction stemming from the desire to seem impressive, respectable, and valuable in the eyes of others. I feel like we have this instinct because being a thing of value means a higher level of security, and more opportunities to achieve happiness with others. So in my personal experience, I've actually found that my desire to interrogate new, potential partners, has actually cause me to often be misled into thinking the person was someone they were not. I'm learning that it's better to try to step into their shoes, and use my empathy to understand them, then to try to analyze their facts and figures. My results tend to be more accurate. Maybe that's helpful information for you?
 

Inexorable Username

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Observing the online "Dating Advice" community of men
A pre-cursor to understanding the mindset of males that fail at dating, and why

So, I'm really interested in the sexes and their struggles, as everyone here is aware of by now. Researching the male struggle has led me to appreciating the fact that so many men struggle to find romantic partners. That struggle has led me to wanting to better understand how, and why men fail. One day, I think I might like to become something of a philosopher - maybe even write a book. If I do, I would like very much to be able to help men better understand women, and achieve a higher degree of romantic success. I think a lot of society's issues could be resolved if more men felt more fulfilled in life.

I also find this research helpful in understanding females, how females respond to men's advances, and the communicational disconnect between the sexes...a lot of instances where I have said women, in general, are like this or like that, come from this research, but I felt like talking about the research, itself, would come across as arrogant, so I used personal anecdotes as supporting evidence.

So for about 7 months or so, I've been analyzing an online community of men who seek, or give other men dating advice. There appears to be a whole culture behind this, and the people that compose it are fascinating. Men become veritable wells of information when detailing their struggles and experiences to a group of male peers who are willing to lend a sympathetic ear to their plight, and validate their feelings. So there is a lot of data to be had here, and it's very insightful, because I find the best way sometimes to understanding human suffering is to find the humans that are suffering the most, and who are eager to discuss their experience.

From a sociological standpoint, I feel that men of this category are at high risk for joining hate groups and engaging in porn related to pedophilia, abuse, or murder, and possibly, even engaging in crimes such as school shootings. There seems to be something of a "descent into madness" that some men can experience, to varying degrees, when their freedom of speech has been repressed and their suffering has gone either unnoticed, or uncared about for long enough. In the case of hate groups, men often seem to be indoctrinated at an early age because loneliness, a lack of education, poverty, and other factors have left them particularly vulnerable to being sought out by those looking to enlist them as soldiers for the cause.

Because of this, I think that observing men in the online dating advice community can be a very valuable psychological and sociological experiment, which could potentially lead to studies that may help to better identify the early warning signs of a man who is a danger to himself or society, and intervention strategies which may be implemented to help the individual achieve mental clarity, and integrate into society.

Disclaimer:

No one here was used in the making of these observations, and as far as I know, no one here is part of this community. Although, if you identify with this, there's really no need to share that information. Asking for dating advice online is, obviously, a great idea, and I think most people do it. You get a privileged insight into the experiences and views of others, that you wouldn't normally get if you asked someone for advice in person. The dating community is different. They're a group of men who band together to discuss their struggles with women, and learn tactics, techniques, and strategies to improve their chances of getting a mate. For these men, the dating community is an outlet, and a sort of therapeutic practice in achieving acceptance and sharing unconventional ideas that society won't allow them to express. I have a lot of empathy for most of them. There's a few I can't really empathize with, so I dish out begrudging sympathy if it's possible - which is probably more of a manifestation of pity than anything else. It's hard to empathize with people who have absolutely no empathy for others, or are actively using and abusing people in pain.

I'll discuss demographic data that people here might find offensive.
I'll also be doing a hell of a lot of generalizing, because, without generalizations you can't make groups, and without groups, you have way to discuss how different groups of people behave differently, and imagine the possibilities for why that may be. Essentially, without generalizations, research like this just doesn't exist. The same goes for labeling people into categorial groups. It's just necessary, sorry.

Keep in mind that when you read things such as references to MRAs, or people who enjoy Nietzche or Jordan Peterson - I'm discussing these topics within the confines of a very specific demographic of people. These observations in no way represent a majority of men. If I were to make a wild guess based on some demographic data and a few vague statistics, I might guess that these men compose about 15-20% of the population. So if I say "MRAs" I mean these specific MRAs, not MRAs in general or as a whole.

Also, even though its tough, please refrain from thinking that if you don't attack my stance and try to say that it stems from deep psychological issues, past trauma/abuse, or an anti-male agenda, that I will somehow get some lunatic ideas about dismantling the patriarchy and repressing men, and that I'll run off and join some feminist coven. I'm really not a radical person. I'm just a person that thinks we shouldn't be afraid to talk about topics just because the PC culture has decided they should be taboo. Pardon my French, but fuck that nonsense. Big supporter of freedom of speech, here.

The Dating Community's Dogma : Status Dating

Those who influence the dating community are BIG into darwinism, evolutionary biology, and male dominance theory. Although, to them, none of these things are theoretical - they are incontrovertible facts.

As a result, the dating community's influencers believe that all humans date for status. Women date to gain status vicariously through men. Men date women that have the superficial appearance of high status.

If anyone is interested to hear some of the advice that the community gives, I'm happy to share it, but I'm not including it here because (A) this post is a long one, and (B) its extremely trigger-worthy material, and I think it will cause many people to jump on the idea that I think all men behave this way/believe these things, and that I've been somehow abused or traumatized and that has lead me to be bias, and that I need to have my opinions corrected because otherwise, I could be some kind of dangerous feminist. I say that because I honestly don't think you guys would receive said advice well, because the men on this forum appear to be intelligent people who value independent thinking, analysis, and appreciating the intricacies of different situations - and the advice the community gives is not geared for that kind of individual. Men who have a high level of independence and value self-reflection, critical thinking, and similar, don't really appear to be represented in this community. If they occasionally grace these areas of the internet, it seems to mostly be out of curiosity, and they move on pretty quickly.

To summarize the advice, though, just read the spark notes for The Game, The Art of Seduction, The Art of War, and listen to Joe Rogan's podcast for a while, and I think you'll get the general idea!

The Macro Categories

The Influencers:
Most of the people in this community don't influence it. Rather, they compose a body of men who are isolated, alienated, awkward, lonely, depressed, physically weak or out of shape, and often emasculated, who are looking to come together within a group that accepts and understands them, under the leadership of a perceived alpha male who has faced their struggles and overcome them. Said alpha male appears to often be narcissistic, and not only seeks out this adoration from men he views to be his inferiors, but often financially profits from it. In the 7-ish months of looking into this community, I haven't yet seen an influencer who is not an MRA (which makes sense). The worst of them appear to be members of MGTOW. Obviously, not all MRA are MGTOW, and in fact, many MRA (what seems to be the more intelligent among them) appear to have disgust and contempt for MGTOW.

The Followers:
The followers in the community appear to be men who really lack a sense of belonging and have deep seeded insecurities. Many of these men appeared to either lack a male presence in their childhood, or their fathers were very absent, inattentive parents. This need to be accepted by male peers seems to motivate these men to seek out male groupings to identify with, and socialize with online. Since these men feel as though they cannot integrate effectively into society, they seek to integrate online.

There's an interesting psychological distinction that seems to manifest between the newbies in the community. Some of them are sweet men, others, not so much. I haven't really seen examples where the "sweet newbies" appear to stay in the community for a long time (a period of more than 2-4 years or so), so I must imagine that these boys are going through something of a personal crisis, and they probably leave the community once they find a girl and get into a successful relationship. The sour newbies seem to have a lot of hate for the world, even at a young age, and they appear to have something of a thirst for abusive content, which seems to strengthen as they become long-term members of the community. They also seem to represent people with mental illnesses, except for autism. Those that claim to genuinely be diagnosed with autism (rather than thinking that they may be autistic - big difference), appear to either being in the sweet newbie segment, or astoundingly neutral. I've yet to meet an autistic who I would put in the "sour" category. Actually, I find they can be really charming, intelligent, and engaging - probably because we're both sitting at keyboards and my face isn't mindfucking their ability to express their thoughts and feelings. Of which they have many. I love the autistics. Cheers.

Why the community is attractive to suffering men, and how other men profit from attempting to help

The community operates under and anti-empathy psychology. The idea, here, is that in order to understand how the world "really is", you have to strip yourself of the instincts to empathize with women, and yourself. The underlying fallacious belief is that reality must be cold, so therefore, if the viewpoints someone is espousing are harsh and cold, they are probably "the truth" - the truth you're not supposed to know, that will give you a real edge over other men.

People are vulnerable to this feeling because their feelings of rejection, alienation, and isolation have led them to have an unrealistically negative view of the world. Depressed people are almost guaranteed to see most of life in a negative light. Men are also culturally groomed to think that empathy is a woman's trait, and that having it makes you weak. So many men blame their empathy for their feelings of self-loathing and their perceived lack of worthiness/value.

As a result, these men are predisposed to believe that dating advice, seasoned with a sense of scientific, objective detachment, which reveals that the world is colder, crueler, and more harsh than the layman believes, must be true, because it resonates so deeply with a man who is suffering in this way, and who feels like they are not manly enough. I hope that makes sense. Not sure if I explained it well.

Once indoctrinated into this community, many men will continue to engage with it on a regular basis for the therapeutic benefit of sharing their feelings, worldviews, and experiencing the sensation of acceptance from a group of male peers. It would seem that men who show more promise for dating do not become long-term members of the community. (I'm assuming they got themselves girlfriends and moved on).

Some men see this community as an opportunity for profit, fame, or to achieve their desire to become a leader. I think many of them are genuinely interested in helping their common man, but, at least in one situation, I did see an example of a person who was a very poor researcher, and who gave very dangerous advice based on fallacious reasoning, while creating content that was heavily targeted and highly branded, with keywords that were intensely relevant to some of the hottest topics, and titles which were extremely click-baity...and said person was also eager to sell counseling sessions to the people that viewed their media. Other media influencers appear to be content with using sensational click-bait titles to build their YouTube following and profit off of advertising and patreon. Obviously, it's not wrong to do that - but I'm skeptical about whether or not all of these people actually believe their bullshit. In which case, they're just profiting off of people's pain, which I find hard to sympathize with.

The Micro Categories

Sweet Newbies:
Empathy: High
Intelligence: Moderate-High
Sexism: Mild-Moderate
(however, their sexism is generally friendly and stems more from naiveté/inexperience)
Dating Potential: Medium
Arrogance: Low
Dating Standards: Low-Moderate

Feelings: Shy, afraid of women, insecure, confused, lonely
Females: Respect, sometimes bordering on reverence
Behaviors: Withdrawn, isolated, quiet, thoughtful, fantasies of love/belonging/acceptance, polite (often ridiculously so), often "straight-edge" (don't drink or do drugs). Optimistic, friendly, compassionate, naive, often believe that the world is predominantly good, hungry for love, happy to get friendship. Often feel alienated, isolated, ignored. Non-aggressive.
Other: Perpetually "friend-zoned"

My heart breaks for these upstanding examples of the male race. I salute you men. You deserve love, and you're the biggest anti-feminism pill out there. Even bitter, cynical women can't encounter these men without feeling for them. They often seem to bring out a woman's protective instincts.

Sour Newbies: Low on the meter of "good"
Empathy: Low
Intelligence: Low-Moderate
Sexism: High
Dating Potential: Low
Arrogance: High
Dating Standards: High

Feelings: Selfish, conceded, arrogant, high in self-conviction, stubborn (especially about beliefs), contemptuous, angry, frustrated, resentful, bitter, dark sense of humor
Females: Highly objectified. Women are like achievements you get from playing video games. They're valuable in the sense that they produce and raise children, and give sex. Otherwise, little value. Women are less intelligent, weaker, and meant to serve men.
Behaviors: Rude, aggressive, trolls. Enjoy shaming others. Dark sense of humor. Generally dark enjoyment of media. Idolizes psychopathic tendencies, rape stories, and murderers. Strong belief that they behave this way because they're honest about dark tendencies that all humans have, but other people are masking/hiding/too stupid to see in themselves. Believes that the world is dark, humans are naturally evil/self-serving, and feels elated by themes of abuse. Strong sense that these feelings make them part of an "underground" community that really "understands human nature" in a way that the brainwashed sheeple do not.
Other: Incels in the making

A lot of these guys aren't bad guys, really. They're just very much defined by the philosophy of the communities they drown themselves in. Often online forums - places like 4chan or reddit, or else, MMORPGs. They spend a disproportionate amount of time engaging in this media, as a sort of escapist behavioral pattern. A lot of hackers seem to be represented by this type, but they appear to compose the most prevalent body of hackers - script-kiddies and similar. Those that don't usually discover hacks for themselves, or create programs, but are able to use the techniques and tools given to them by the people they spend most of their time engaging with.

Differences between sweet and sour newbies:
Levels of empathy. View of humans and the world (sweet newbies appear to be overly optimistic, sours are the opposite). Pets - sweets seem to have pets more often. Sours don't seem to want the responsibility. Between the two, sweets seem to have a much higher rate of having cats. (I've been relating this to potentially being correlative with attitudes towards women. Some sours enjoy very abusive references to animals, but cats in particular.) Sweets seem to engage much more with the real world, and have a much more accurate view of the way it actually is, albeit a bit naive. Sours seem to confuse fantasy with reality, and harbor a belief that the opinions represented in their online community reflect the way the world really is. Sours appear to have more mental illnesses, often don't work, and do a lot more drugs.

What they have in common:
Weight problems or slight physical frames (short, or slimly built), often raised by single mothers and among sisters, usually more intelligent than the average person, but the sour newbies appear to have a large subgroup of men that would be on the lower end of the intelligence spectrum, generally introverted.

The next group of people have been part of the "dating advice" community for longer, and their personalities seem to have manifested in more concrete ways.

Incels & Outcasts:
The profile for this is largely the same as that the sour newbies. Sour newbies seem to use the dating advice given to them by the community. Some sour newbies (I think the more intelligent ones) will often succeed in getting a relationship, but fail to keep it. These men seem to be your "outcasts". Most women are turned off by how much time these men spend online/playing games, and how steadfastly they refuse to engage in the real world, as well as how harsh/cruel/critical they can be in a relationship. These kinds of men seem to resent having to spend time with their partners. Surprisingly, they're pretty good at admitting that they were the problem in the relationship.
Incels, on the other hand, have often tested this dating advice and failed to get a relationship. In general, they appear to be less intelligent, and seem to really struggle to hide their sexist sense of arrogance and entitlement. They often seem to have physical qualities that women find particularly off-putting, particularly, the stare. I personally think that many of these people may have issues with mirror neurons.
Note: While autistic men often seem to be incels, they seem to more commonly fall into the category of "sweet newbies", and they don't seem to really develop a sense of hatred for females. Autistics appear to be outliers.

MRA:
Note: This ONLY applies to MRAs I've observed in the dating advice community...ie, they either can't find themselves a partner, or they fancy themselves to be players/dating connoisseurs, who are determined to "make a man" out of their lesser, beta-male peers.

Empathy: Low
Intelligence: Moderate-High
Sexism: High
Dating Potential: High
Arrogance: High
Dating Standards: High

Feelings: Narcissistic-like personality traits, big fans of dominance, obsession with hierarchy, firmly defensive of the patriarchy, cold, calculating, contemptuous, condescending, egotistical, selfish, thoughtful, philosophical, assertive.
Females: Females are dangerous, manipulative, and abusive. Females trick males into believing they are innocent. Secretly, females quest for dominance and power and want to oppress men. Females are the weaker, less intelligent, less logical sex, and need men to dominate them so they will accept their place in life. Females must be guarded against other men, because they females will cheat if they are ovulating, and/or will have sex with men if that male has more money or power. Females will always favor the most dominant male. When they are properly dominated by men, females become docile and nurturing. If they are not dominated, they become dangerous and manipulative. Females cannot organize or manage a social hierarchy. Females are incapable of large-scale projects, high levels of education, etc. Females do not know how to raise male children properly. Husbands should rule the household.
Behaviors: Men like this often seem to love engaging in debates, they relish in winning an argument, and in shutting people down or "melting a snowflake". They seem to be heavily conservative, and there appear to be more religious men in this group. These men seem to view themselves as leaders and advocates - the voice of men, protecting men from the oppression of women. They have a very high degree of self-assurance and conviction in their beliefs, and will often lean on the argument of darwinism or evolutionary biology to prove their case. They tend to cherry-pick sources and studies which demonstrate differences between the gender, and use these to construct a larger argument that appears valid because parts of it may be true or are backed by science/statistics. Appeal to authority is a popular technique. Men in this group consider themselves to be ruthlessly logical, and even discussion in which the opposition disagrees is a battle - especially if the opposition is female. These men seem to love history, politics, philosophy, business, physical fitness, ultimate fighting, and have a large respect for the military and a strong contempt for anything they deem to be feminine, including their mothers. (Although, they always seem to value having respect and love for ones mother, and profess that they do...then they attach a "but" and will often proceed to explain why their mother's weakness caused them to have a lack of manliness early in their life.)
Other: Believe all men would cheat if given the chance, men and women can't be friends, a person's value is determined by what is on the outside (appearance, dominance, wealth, power). Only young, beautiful women are valuable in a dating sense, and dominant men only date valuable women. A lot of these men seem to reference Nietzche, Jordan Peterson, and enjoy Joe Rogan.

Not all MRAs come from this community, obviously...I would think there's quite a few MRAs out there who have had success with women and never really became involved in the dating advice community.

The ones that are in this community appear to have very narcissistic-like personality traits and a bit of a god complex surrounding their own sexual value. They enjoy being surrounded by men that they view as weak, and who adore them, and this desire to be revered seems to lead them to taking of the mantle of being dating advice experts for their peers. Their dating advice centers around how to be a man, and these people often have a story to share about how they, themselves, became a real man. They're philosophy is that if you are a real man, women will flock to you, and that sleeping with as many of them as possible is healthy, natural, and good. They justify this hypersexual attitude with references to testosterone, darwinism, and evolutionary biology - all three of which have a god-like influence on their world view. They view testosterone as the biggest proof of genetic, and sexual superiority, and anyone who disagrees with darwinism or evolutionary biology as something of a truth denier or science denier. These subjects are intrinsically related to their identity as a man, so they cannot afford to question their validity. Testosterone is also intrinsically tied to their identity, as is the fact that it is responsible for the fact that males are, in almost every way except for in childcare, superior to females.

Often times, this grouping seems to catch the more physically fit and intelligent neo nazis, white supremecists, and other members of gangs and hate groups, which, I think, is what gave Jordan Peterson such a bad reputation with the media. Only the really extremist MRAs seem to be from these groups, however. Most of them recognize equality in men across all races, despite their beliefs in survival of the fittest and in strengthening genetics through selective breeding. Many seem to feel that races should not intermingle.

MGTOW:
While there are MGTOW members in the community, evidenced by the beliefs they share, MGTOW has a pretty bad reputation, and most of the people in the online dating advice community try to definitely, for sure, beyond a shadow of a doubt, whole-heartedly (yes they are that unrealistically emphatic about it) convince everyone that they do not actually "hate women", but that they just have some unconventional opinions that maybe, sort of make them seem that way. The bottom-line, misogyny isn't really socially acceptable within this community, which makes sense, because many of the men who are joining it aren't affiliated with hate groups yet, and would not be receptive to such an agenda. The leaders of the community are aware that their media reception and their ability to be welcoming and inclusive to new members, is an important aspect of how successful they will be in their role.
MGTOW members seem to include the body of men that I would categorize as "2 steps from hell", and others who are not quite as bad, or are just testing the waters to see whether or not this is a movement they can, in good conscious, get behind...and who are subsequently exposed to repeated brainwashing and conditioning from the 2 steps from hell crowd.
I've not yet met a self-proclaimed member of MGTOW who I would describe as someone who is not dangerous to society...the less dangerous members don't seem to want to own up to the label, or they try it once or twice and spend the rest of their online activity trying to convince people that they're not actually part of that group.
So, yeah, overall, I would say that this group isn't really represented in the online dating advice community, and where I suspect there may be MGTOW members, they don't exactly proclaim themselves. So it would be hard to know for sure.

Obviously, there's a few of them here and there...there just really isn't enough for a category.

Why men fail to date women

Description of topic :
How this research highlights the qualities of men who are unsuccessful at dating, and provides clues as to the thoughts, behaviors, lifestyles, actions, and beliefs that cause men to be unappealing, and (subjectively) why women respond to these men the way that they do.

Coming Soon to a forum near you....
 

peoplesuck

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My dog taught me why so many men fail with women. No joke.
Not actually my dog, my nephews dog. The poor thing did not get enough attention. It was the sweetest dog ever, too sweet, always trying to lick your face and willing to do anything for attention. Just pay attention to me, was all it asked.
I hated that dog.
One day I saw myself in that dog, and everything made sense.
Its lack of affection made it unbearable to be around, it had no boundaries, it needed every bit of your attention. Do you know what would happen if you pet it for a while, then stopped? It would bite you, and get more rough the more you ignored it. I was like that dog, and I think Im just now getting past that phase.

I love all animals, this dog was a rare case, as if something deep down hated the dog, for reminding me why I keep failing.

I still dont like that dog, I suppose im still that dog.
 

Inexorable Username

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My dog taught me why so many men fail with women. No joke.
Not actually my dog, my nephews dog. The poor thing did not get enough attention. It was the sweetest dog ever, too sweet, always trying to lick your face and willing to do anything for attention. Just pay attention to me, was all it asked.
I hated that dog.
One day I saw myself in that dog, and everything made sense.
Its lack of affection made it unbearable to be around, it had no boundaries, it needed every bit of your attention. Do you know what would happen if you pet it for a while, then stopped? It would bite you, and get more rough the more you ignored it. I was like that dog, and I think Im just now getting past that phase.

I love all animals, this dog was a rare case, as if something deep down hated the dog, for reminding me why I keep failing.

I still dont like that dog, I suppose im still that dog.
I think that's really unusual behavior for men though - emotional dependence. It definitely exists, and I've seen a couple of guys like that, but I don't think that's why most men fail at dating.

I also don't think it's unreasonable to dislike the dog. I love dogs, but I train them. Dogs that are completely undisciplined are kind of like kids that are completely undisciplined. Jumping, shouting, misbehaving, climbing all over the place, interrupting you constantly, begging - it's behavior that would exhaust anyone.

I feel like a lot of your difficulties stem from self-loathing, based on what you've said. I think that, potentially, you feel that if someone else loved you, you would find it easier to love yourself. What's really a shame with people is that, it often seems to be the case, that people that love themselves less receive less love from others. It can be a really depressing downward spiral. It seems to me, though, that a lot of people that feel this way simply don't see themselves very accurately. There's definitely people out there who, imo, deserve less love, but those people never seem to think that they do.

Even though insecure people can have a lot of wonderful qualities, I think what it boils down to is the fact that nobody wants to be responsible for someone else's emotional well-being...or at least, not someone they don't know that well. It's one of the reasons I don't keep many friends - I don't want to hurt anyone. I don't think anyone really wants to hurt anyone. When someone relies on you just so they can feel accepted, then any misstep on your part could hurt that person. Then, you would feel hurt, too, because you would feel guilty for causing them even more pain.

I've struggled a ton with insecurity in my life. For me, I eventually came to realize that a lot of the reasons I felt insecure had to do with what society was telling me I should be like. Mostly, that society was telling me I had to be social or I would never be happy. It took a dive into Buddhism for me to realize that you can be alone, and not be lonely, and in fact, in many cases, it may even be much easier to be happy in your aloneness, then it is to be happy with people in your life.

Everyone's story is different though...I think, especially when it comes to loneliness and insecurity. I don't think I would have come to this conclusion at a younger age. I had to grow into it, I guess. I needed to get out there and experience the world, and go through all the nonsense, before I was really able to see things clearly.

My first major milestone in my personal development was when I went on an Outward Bound in high school. I learned that I was capable of a lot more then I knew. Sometime after that, my next major milestone was when I read the book "The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People", and I finally stopped seeing myself as a sort of victim in life, and I started to hold myself accountable for my own feelings and achievements, or lack thereof. That's when I started to get a bit ambitious. Before that, I just hid from the world and did my art thing.

So, then I really started to explore the idea of being professionally successful, and I went through a social stage. Ambition got the better of me though, and I started getting really anxious and depressed, which eventually led me to my next milestone, where I learned to redefine what I viewed as "failure". My interpretation of failure was very black and white, and unforgiving, and I used it to bully myself and shame myself.

Then I went through a sort of period where I spent a lot of time trying to stand society, the world, and myself, on a deep level, and I started to explore my philosophical/intellectual side, which progressively made me feel more and more confident, because I felt empowered to make positive changes in myself, as a person, and I felt like I could more easily understand and accept the world, and the behaviors of others.

Then I went through a buddhism phase where I finally, finally came to the realization that the perspective that had been pressed upon me by society - that everyone has to be with someone, the only way to happiness is by having a family, and that being social and not having friends means you're a sick and unhealthy, depressed individual - wasn't correct in my case. I started realizing all of the other pieces of advice that society had given me, that was wrong, and I finally decided to do things my own way.

That's where I'm at now. At this point, I'm trying to figure out what I can do to help make the world better, and I also want to understand the aspects of my personality that make me underperform and how to improve them - as well as to learn about the ways in which I could backslide in my personal development, maybe by developing a contempt for humanity, for instance, so I can avoid the flawed logic that may lead me down that path.

So, see...I'm happy with the progress I've made, and I really feel like a much stronger person. I don't think I could have gotten there though without everything that I went through - which was very uncomfortable, and made me think that there was something wrong with me. Now I just think there's something different about me.

I think if I adopted a kid, I would give them some advice kind of like this - first off, to not think depression is a wholly bad thing, or that it indicates that there's something wrong with you on the inside, but to see it as a catalyst for self-improvement. Secondly, that the trick to figuring life out is probably in figuring out how to avoid apathy at all costs...which, I think is something of a skill people have to build. Backsliding is better than apathy, because at least if you fail, and it depresses you, you have a catalyst for improvement. With apathy, there is no catalyst.

I know probably none of this is that helpful for you....but I can't really speak for you, not being in your head or part of your world. I can only speak for myself, and attest to the fact that my life thus far as probably been 70% sucky and 30% sweet...but I'm old enough now that I no longer regret it. It was the crappy stuff that actually made me who I am, and I like who I am now. I don't feel like I need the crappy part of life quite as much anymore, to motivate me to improve. I've finally gotten in the habit of it, and just the act of constantly improving makes me happy. Also, I learned a lot of ways to help myself and handle myself, so I feel more secure that I'm in control of my feelings, and I can fix them if they go south.

I'm sorry things are rough for you. But...if it's any consolation, I think you have a lot of promise. You really care, and you're trying to figure it out. You're a good looking guy, and you love animals and kids. You have a lot to take pride in, I think, and maybe part of your problem is that you're not willing to do that? Not sure.

Keep venting here though! I think I speak for all the aliens when I say that we like the sensation of being the people you come to in order to share the deep stuff. :)
 

peoplesuck

caretaker of machines
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This problem is much more common than you may think, it shows itself in many ways. The main difference between the dog and a man, is the dog will be taught, and the man has to figure out the problem, before he can even begin to work on it.
I think Im starting to figure stuff out, Ive been way happier and more confident. That dog was important to me, and I need to fix the dog. I see the dog as an unwanted child, for whatever reason I dont bond with it, or like it. I dont give the dog the love it deserves, the way terrible parents neglect their children. The way I handle this dog is the way I would handle an unwanted person, that is why is bothers me so deeply that I dont care for it. I need to use the dog to learn to be empathetic and kind, so that when it comes to something similar, with a person, I can be mature enough to care for them, even if I dont want to. I think my learning to love the dog, is very much like learning to love myself, that probably sounds stupid, but its how I see it.
I agree with your analysis. However deep problems typically take a while to extract. :tinykitball:
I think if anyone would go back and change their past, they have let themselves become a victim. I wouldnt change anything. Im with you, those bad things got me here, and im ok with that.
 

peoplesuck

caretaker of machines
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.
 

peoplesuck

caretaker of machines
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only halfway there
Im not trying to hijack your thread but I want to give you a better response.

Then I went through a buddhism phase where I finally, finally came to the realization that the perspective that had been pressed upon me by society
Meditating is one of the key things that keeps me balanced, personally. Im making it a top priority.
and I finally stopped seeing myself as a sort of victim in life, and I started to hold myself accountable for my own feelings and achievements, or lack thereof. That's when I started to get a bit ambitious. Before that, I just hid from the world and did my art thing.
This is something that im struggling with. Not so much feeling like a victim, but more falling into apathy, giving up, rather than blaming others. Its like," yes its my fault, and I really dont know if I can fix it". apathy is pretty much the worst, its essentially blaming nobody and not being in a place of control.
I've struggled a ton with insecurity in my life. For me, I eventually came to realize that a lot of the reasons I felt insecure had to do with what society was telling me I should be like.
This is my problem too, Im not what im "supposed to be". Im learning to be myself, funny thing about it, its not that painful. I used to be scared to let other people know what music I liked, because what if they hated it? one day I shared my favorite songs with someone, they said it was trash, and I did not give a fuck. The struggle is just getting to the point of sharing, so that I can learn its not painful. Feeling defective makes it impossible to feel proud. Im getting over that as well, rather quickly. ^_^
Even though insecure people can have a lot of wonderful qualities, I think what it boils down to is the fact that nobody wants to be responsible for someone else's emotional well-being...or at least, not someone they don't know that well. It's one of the reasons I don't keep many friends - I don't want to hurt anyone. I don't think anyone really wants to hurt anyone. When someone relies on you just so they can feel accepted, then any misstep on your part could hurt that person. Then, you would feel hurt, too, because you would feel guilty for causing them even more pain.
I completely agree, and its one of the reasons I dont want people to know im sensitive, because they assume they will accidentally crush me. What it really comes down to is not having a life.
People should be like snacks throughout the marathon, they should not be the finish line. EASIER SAID THAT INTERNALLY ACCEPTED.
My approach to fixing this is to get a job, have a purpose, have hobbies, have friends, have lots of emotional connections. I need a fuckton of affection, as it turns out, I cannot get enough touch, an absolute cuddle fiend.

If you had one piece of paper to draw on for the rest of your life, you would never start, or your fear would ruin it. We fall into that mindset and it ruins relationships and projects. or, at leat, I FUCKING DO
I feel like a lot of your difficulties stem from self-loathing, based on what you've said. I think that, potentially, you feel that if someone else loved you, you would find it easier to love yourself. What's really a shame with people is that, it often seems to be the case, that people that love themselves less receive less love from others. It can be a really depressing downward spiral. It seems to me, though, that a lot of people that feel this way simply don't see themselves very accurately. There's definitely people out there who, imo, deserve less love, but those people never seem to think that they do.
YES, I want to see that I can be loved before I follow. STUPID IK. the accpetance I have gotten from one of my dates has really helped me out, like hey, maybe im not terrible, maybe I can be likable too. I always wanted to be the person people felt safe with, physically and in general. From my few dates, I can surely say, I exude some aura of compassion and trust. My body language is very gentle, I noticed a few things that are MOM signals, and I just cannot stop sending them. It makes me feel better to know I do come off as kind.
During one of my dates I said " I hope that didnt come off as creepy" and she said that she didnt think I could be creepy if I tried. my lil heart went UWU at that, because I was always treated like a creep, because I was too quiet and distant.

EDIT: also, Im absolutely FUCKING ADEPT at figuring people out. not sure if its from psychology research or if im actually intelligent, but when I see things I am good at figuring out what caused them. My date shared her insecurity with me, and it took maybe 20seconds to pinpoint what caused it. she didnt tell me until recently, but it wasnt the first time I was able to do that.
PERCEPTIVE AF BOI ^_^
I also don't think it's unreasonable to dislike the dog. I love dogs, but I train them. Dogs that are completely undisciplined are kind of like kids that are completely undisciplined. Jumping, shouting, misbehaving, climbing all over the place, interrupting you constantly, begging - it's behavior that would exhaust anyone.
I agree!
WORKING ON IT.
 

Ex-User (14663)

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Since I have this sort of personality, I can tend to be impatient with people that are eager to waste my time on activities that are sheerly for entertainment purposes. Going to the movies, for instance, is not the kind of date I would enjoy. Why spend time with the person if you can't even ask them questions to learn more? I would be much more interested in going out for coffee, and discussing an intellectual topic.
amen to that, I hate going to the movies too.
This woman sounds like she's ambitious. What motivates that emotion? If I were trying to nurture a deeper bond with her, I would start by finding out what it is she takes pride in, and I would use that information to figure out what emotionally motivates her to achieve what she's achieved.
one of the things that makes her the most animated is when she talks about stuff related to work and business. So she seems pretty interested in the work itself (which is another thing I find quite respectable).

But anyways you gave me some interesting ideas. Very cool stuff.
 

Inexorable Username

Well-Known Member
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761
Im not trying to hijack your thread but I want to give you a better response.

Then I went through a buddhism phase where I finally, finally came to the realization that the perspective that had been pressed upon me by society
Meditating is one of the key things that keeps me balanced, personally. Im making it a top priority.
and I finally stopped seeing myself as a sort of victim in life, and I started to hold myself accountable for my own feelings and achievements, or lack thereof. That's when I started to get a bit ambitious. Before that, I just hid from the world and did my art thing.
This is something that im struggling with. Not so much feeling like a victim, but more falling into apathy, giving up, rather than blaming others. Its like," yes its my fault, and I really dont know if I can fix it". apathy is pretty much the worst, its essentially blaming nobody and not being in a place of control.
I've struggled a ton with insecurity in my life. For me, I eventually came to realize that a lot of the reasons I felt insecure had to do with what society was telling me I should be like.
This is my problem too, Im not what im "supposed to be". Im learning to be myself, funny thing about it, its not that painful. I used to be scared to let other people know what music I liked, because what if they hated it? one day I shared my favorite songs with someone, they said it was trash, and I did not give a fuck. The struggle is just getting to the point of sharing, so that I can learn its not painful. Feeling defective makes it impossible to feel proud. Im getting over that as well, rather quickly. ^_^
Even though insecure people can have a lot of wonderful qualities, I think what it boils down to is the fact that nobody wants to be responsible for someone else's emotional well-being...or at least, not someone they don't know that well. It's one of the reasons I don't keep many friends - I don't want to hurt anyone. I don't think anyone really wants to hurt anyone. When someone relies on you just so they can feel accepted, then any misstep on your part could hurt that person. Then, you would feel hurt, too, because you would feel guilty for causing them even more pain.
I completely agree, and its one of the reasons I dont want people to know im sensitive, because they assume they will accidentally crush me. What it really comes down to is not having a life.
People should be like snacks throughout the marathon, they should not be the finish line. EASIER SAID THAT INTERNALLY ACCEPTED.
My approach to fixing this is to get a job, have a purpose, have hobbies, have friends, have lots of emotional connections. I need a fuckton of affection, as it turns out, I cannot get enough touch, an absolute cuddle fiend.

If you had one piece of paper to draw on for the rest of your life, you would never start, or your fear would ruin it. We fall into that mindset and it ruins relationships and projects. or, at leat, I FUCKING DO
I feel like a lot of your difficulties stem from self-loathing, based on what you've said. I think that, potentially, you feel that if someone else loved you, you would find it easier to love yourself. What's really a shame with people is that, it often seems to be the case, that people that love themselves less receive less love from others. It can be a really depressing downward spiral. It seems to me, though, that a lot of people that feel this way simply don't see themselves very accurately. There's definitely people out there who, imo, deserve less love, but those people never seem to think that they do.
YES, I want to see that I can be loved before I follow. STUPID IK. the accpetance I have gotten from one of my dates has really helped me out, like hey, maybe im not terrible, maybe I can be likable too. I always wanted to be the person people felt safe with, physically and in general. From my few dates, I can surely say, I exude some aura of compassion and trust. My body language is very gentle, I noticed a few things that are MOM signals, and I just cannot stop sending them. It makes me feel better to know I do come off as kind.
During one of my dates I said " I hope that didnt come off as creepy" and she said that she didnt think I could be creepy if I tried. my lil heart went UWU at that, because I was always treated like a creep, because I was too quiet and distant.

EDIT: also, Im absolutely FUCKING ADEPT at figuring people out. not sure if its from psychology research or if im actually intelligent, but when I see things I am good at figuring out what caused them. My date shared her insecurity with me, and it took maybe 20seconds to pinpoint what caused it. she didnt tell me until recently, but it wasnt the first time I was able to do that.
PERCEPTIVE AF BOI ^_^
I also don't think it's unreasonable to dislike the dog. I love dogs, but I train them. Dogs that are completely undisciplined are kind of like kids that are completely undisciplined. Jumping, shouting, misbehaving, climbing all over the place, interrupting you constantly, begging - it's behavior that would exhaust anyone.
I agree!
WORKING ON IT.
I love how you’ve taken your experience with the dog as such a philosophical lesson. You remind me of me in so many ways. There’s definitely nothing wrong with having mom qualities.

A YouTuber I like to watched called LindyBeige makes videos about warfare, history, archaeology and such. In one of his videos, he discussed what qualities those who wasn’t he Purple Heart (for acts of military courage) have in common.

The quality they found was that many of these people had a sense of responsibility for others. Older siblings who had to help raise younger kids. It was that sense of responsibility for their unit that would cause them to risk their own lives to save someone else.

I think that a man with mom qualities is probably the best kind of man. Men seem to think that being ruthless is attractive, but I disagree. Empathy and compassion don’t make men less manly. If anything, I see them as aspects of leadership potential in men. They show intelligence, both in the EQ and IQ sense. They show morality, a sense of justice, a predisposition to bravery and courage.

For what it’s worth, award winning author Orson Scott Card agreed with me on that when he wrote Ender’s Game - a story about a young boy that becomes a military leader because of his ability to empathize.

If you look at the story of Henry Ford’s life (a very successful many with many faults), I think you’ll see that he also a strong sense of empathy. He was very close to his mother, and he cared deeply about the people who worked for him. Its why he was able to revolutionize the American work day and the assembly line. His sense of responsibility for others, and his empathy for people, helped him to appreciate how to create systems that capitalized on the abilities of the people, while also yielding a sense of happiness and fulfilment.

Some guys mistake empathy for being immature, weak, sensitive, or otherwise ruled by emotions. It seems to be true that people that have more empthay need a bit longer to achieve emotional control. There’s more emotions to control, afterall. Also, empathy thrives in environments where people have been well cared for - even somewhat coddled, so that, also, might affect relative maturity level.

But the mistake is in thinking that empathy and lack of emotional control are mutually exclusive. Empathy is just the information that helps people to make the most reasonable decisions. Without it, you’re lacking the whole perspective. Those with empathy will always be privy to more information than those without. Those who have empathy, and apply logic, reason, knowledge, and education to it, are in my mind, the most formidable people.

That’s why men without empathy don’t interest me. I feel compassion for them, and I often hope to show them the value of empathy, so they can perhaps learn to practice it a little more - but a lack of empathy in and of itself is a sign of immaturity. Worse, it’s a sign that someone could be dangerous/hurtful.

Then again...when you have empathy and are willing to use it like a weapon to do the wrong thing...well I would say those people are probably some of the most dangerous of all ._.

I think that’s when you get your Hitlers of the word. People say that Hitler was a psychopath, but I disagree. I think it’s quite possible that Hitler was an empath. He had an uncanny ability to speak to the people and truly understand their plight, and also their weaknesses from a political propaganda standpoint. He also had dangerous philosophies and unrealistic dreams that he’d worked into some massive streak of idealism, coupled with having a bit of a chip on his shoulder from his upbringing. Put those things together and you get a person with a fragile ego, a thirst to prove themselves, a psychotic vision for what the world should be, and the tools to use the people to make it happen.

Empaths make the best military leaders for that reason, I think.

Anyways, I think your feelings about this dog may be somewhat indicative that you might be an empath, like me. Projecting yourself into this dog and taking the dog’s experience so much to heart - it seems to be something that empaths have a habit of doing, especially when they’re a bit depressed. My INFJ friend, she’s an empath as well, but she has it worse than I do. At least in the sense of physical symptoms.

From what I know...it’s really hard to be an empath, starting out. I struggled with it. My INFJ friend struggles with it. It seems to go hand in hand with being overly sensitive, somewhat reclusive/withdrawn and also, getting a bit angry with people for how they’ve made you feel. If it helps, both Allie and I love soft stuff and cuddling.

I also find that people who have more experience in working introspectively with their empathy seem to find it easy to turn it on and off. So in a way, empathetic people seem to actually be capable of more ruthlessness than average people, maybe...o_O
I think the difference is, the concept of being ruthless is quite painful to someone whose old enough to control their empathy, and wise enough to understand the world. So I don’t think many empathetic people would do such a thing. I guess when you get to Hitler - that’s where that could change. Maybe when someone sees themselves as a sort of leader of the new world, they justify the actions, shut off the empathy, and use the knowledge it’s given them to achieve their means.

Strange to entertain a darker side of empathy...I’m not alone in noticing the potential for empaths to “shut it off” though. Other people have noticed this too.

Well anyways - that’s me rambling! Moral of the story - I don’t think you should see yourself as less of a man for being empathetic. Empathetic men and the men who can lead others, change the status quo, and risk their lives to save the people they care about.

Think about it - it makes sense. If you can project into a dog, imagine what it would be like projecting into the fear, pain, and suffering of a fallen brother in battle who was terrified that they were about to be killed? A person who doesn’t reflect the feelings of others would, I think, see that seen maybe as if it were someone on a movie screen. The empath would see it as if they were the desperately terrified person, and they would feel the terror - and if it just so happened that the empath feels responsible for that person, and terrified for their safety, they might very well choose to save them. The consequences of feeling that feeling and doing nothing to help could be severe for an empathetic person. They might never forgive themselves.

This is the kind of feeling that galvanizes women into wanting to save kids, even if they’re not their own, and I think the reason older siblings get the Purple Heart more is because those are the empaths that we’re made to nurture their sense of responsibility for others, so their teammates were “theirs” in a way women think of children as “theirs”.

I think a non-empath reading this might think I’m crazy or completely misinformed and naive, but you might get where I’m coming from.

Anyways...definitely hold on to that feeling of the dog. It’s obviously pulling at something on a deep level for you. If you can understand that something, maybe you can control it better. If you can control it, then maybe you don’t have to hate it for controlling you?

Or I could be just raving at this point! Haha
 

Inexorable Username

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Since I have this sort of personality, I can tend to be impatient with people that are eager to waste my time on activities that are sheerly for entertainment purposes. Going to the movies, for instance, is not the kind of date I would enjoy. Why spend time with the person if you can't even ask them questions to learn more? I would be much more interested in going out for coffee, and discussing an intellectual topic.
amen to that, I hate going to the movies too.
This woman sounds like she's ambitious. What motivates that emotion? If I were trying to nurture a deeper bond with her, I would start by finding out what it is she takes pride in, and I would use that information to figure out what emotionally motivates her to achieve what she's achieved.
one of the things that makes her the most animated is when she talks about stuff related to work and business. So she seems pretty interested in the work itself (which is another thing I find quite respectable).

But anyways you gave me some interesting ideas. Very cool stuff.
Yeah I get really passionate when I discuss my subjects of interest.

I don’t think this applies to her - I couldn’t know if it does, but for me, guys have misinterpreted my passion before as being interest in them, personally. I’m not saying she’s not interested in you! She’s hanging out with you quite a bit. She obviously values your friendship and I think more serious interest often stems from that.

I’m just saying that I know what you mean when you say she becomes animated about work/business. (A lot of my interests relate to work/business).

Is it too much to ask what you guys work in? Maybe it’s something I’ve had interest in, in which case, maybe I can share some ideas with you that could be exciting to her.
 

Rebis

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I'm quite selfish with my thoughts, thinking about posting a piece and emulating people's responses is a lot less taxing and you can do while you'r walking, which I find I do a lot of.
How do you type and walk at the same time? Admirable.
I know I’m physically capable of this but my brain can’t handle processing communication and walking at the same time. Maybe when god was handing out brains he gave you a special one. Like a shiny Pokemon, organ style.

Also what do you mean by emulating peoples’ responses?
Noo, I meant I don't post a lot of my thoughts if I'm busy, instead I just emulate people's views in my head, what they'd say and how they would react. My phone's way too big now and I like having one hand free. if It was smaller I could for sure
 

Rebis

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Incels and men hating women are always gonna exist, people can be spiteful over the littlest of things. I wonder if a community online is gives them a release that they're not alone, which would prevent the repression of themselves from developing a large and dangerous shadow is useful, or does the echo chamber of support from like-minded individuals cause more violence/hatred?
 

Inexorable Username

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Incels and men hating women are always gonna exist, people can be spiteful over the littlest of things. I wonder if a community online is gives them a release that they're not alone, which would prevent the repression of themselves from developing a large and dangerous shadow is useful, or does the echo chamber of support from like-minded individuals cause more violence/hatred?
Incels aren’t the rule of thumb, and I actually don’t know to what degree they would “always exist”. Actually, I think the internet may have largely created incels. At the point that someone is an Incel they seem to be fairly far gone.

It definitely gives them a release. The community is a therapeutic escape for many.

There’s a slippery slope though that creates men like incels, from what I can see. Men come to the online dating advice community looking for tactics and techniques. Already, by doing so, they’ve demonstrated a fair few red flags.

First off, they’ve demonstrated the belief that other men have successful relationships because they have more skill with women. Sort of like how someone might be able to hit the bullseye because they have more skill with a bow and arrow.

The first step they went through before coming to the community is to come to the conclusion that:
Women are not like men, therefore women are not like me, therefore I cannot relate to women.

If you can’t relate to someone, then what?
Then you need other people to teach you how to think and act.

Like most self-help books, these men come looking for strategies that will make them successful, without having to do any real personal development. They want success and they want it now, and having to develop yourself is much more work then using quick fixes to get your way.

That doesn’t make them and people though. Everyone does that for things in their life, and we all want the fastest solution to our problems.

The key difference is that this shows that these men have begun to see women as a “problem” that they need quick fixes for. In this way, they’ve already started to alienate themselves from women, and they’ve already started to objectify them, even though they don’t mean to do it.

Anyways, the more and more they delve into this community, the more the cold, objectified opinions other men have developed about women, will rub off on them. See, other men in the community have tried and failed, so they’ve developed philosophies around their failure to show why the world works that way. Those philosophies almost always fall back on the ways in which women are different from men and (in the case of many people’s views) inferior. I think the reason they develop the idea that women are inferior is because it hurts less, and unfortunately, there’s a massive slew of information you can use to back up this argument in religion, philosophy, psychology, etc.

From what I can see, this is how men slowly start to become contaminated. MRAs are particularly dangerous to men when they stem from this particular community, because they tend to be pretty intelligent and knowledgable/well-read. They also usually don’t come across immediately as sexist, so if you’re opposed to that mentality as so many men are, these community leaders seem reasonable and safe, and like guys whose attitudes you can really get behind.

Obviously, like I said, not all MRAs are misogynistic, but I think probably a majority of the ones that are have been involved with this community.

Anyways...in the end, the men that get sucked into this community fall further and further into the trap of believing that men and women are two totally different creatures, and one can’t possibly relate to the other. That in order for men to be successful with women, they need to hone their skills, learn the rules, and carefully use techniques and tactics so they can become successful in playing “the game”.

I think one thing we need to do, as a culture, is to start better understanding sexism. Because this idea that I mentioned - it’s not misogyny. It’s sexism. Sexism is where misogyny stems from. It seems to me that in this community, when men are sexist, and particularly when they objectify women, they’re setting themselves up to one day become misogynistic after they’ve been repeatedly rejected. That’s how the Incels are made.

It’s easy to become sexist though. It’s not the demon trait people make it out to be. I think it’s natural, actually. We’re primed to look for differences, not similarities. Differences are more important to our survival.

I’ve struggled with sexism in the past. I had proactively work to not be a sexist person. It’s really easy to become sexist if, instead of seeing sexism, itself, as the problem, you see it as “the truth” and look to validate it.

Of course you’ll be able to validate sexism, especially in the absence of empathy. If you look for arguments to support sexual discrimination, you’ll be able to make many. Then, people use seductive reasoning to decide why that discrimination exists. They end with the perspective that men and women are inherently different.

What makes that invalid, is because you’re ignoring all of the many, many ways in which men and women are the same. There’s far more ways we’re the same then there are ways that we are different. Even the degrees to which we differ is often minimal, and in many cases, potentially due to culture or nurture rather than what we’re born with. If a person was exercising empathy, they would find it easier to relate to women and they would have a better sense of what traits make men and women similar. Which is why, I think, many men that fail at dating lack empathy.

I want to get into more detail about it later, but there’s a couple of major things here that I think make men fail in dating.

Firstly, seeing her like a stranger. Someone who is alien, different, not like you. We have a certain fondness for people who are close to us, and when we learn to value humanity, we develop a certain level of respect, fondness, and empathetic abilities with strangers. You start to view them as real people with real lives, stories, and feelings.

Men who fail at dating don’t see humans that way. They see everyone around them as actors in their own story. People who they want to make play a part, so they can live out the fantasy in their head. When that attitude gets used with women, men imagine she should be a certain way (innocent for instance), and they fantasize about what she would be like if she were in their life, and then they try to find the techniques that will make that possible.

But you’re ignoring the real world and the fact that everyone has their own story and their own life, and that your beliefs about who someone is or what they’ll be like in your life are almost always wrong.

When he comes to her with the motivation to get something out of her, most women can immediately pick up on that. Empathy helps us to determine whether or not someone means us harm. If someone approaches you without an agenda, they’re probably safe. If they have an ulterior motive - what is it? So this emotional environment he’s created by nurturing unspoken expectations has already set off warning bells in most women’s heads to say “this guy is up to something.”

Now some men, with a phenomenal amount of confidence, get around this by just being totally blatant about what they’re after. “Hey, I think you’re really attractive. Can I take you out to dinner?”
As you can imagine, though, those men aren’t on dating advice forums asking pick up artists for advice.

Anyways...I have more to say on the issue, but on the outset, that’s one of the major reasons I think men fail. They look at her and they stereotype her. First, as a woman, then, probably as a type of woman. From that, they develop fantasies and expectations. Maybe if she seems like a bad girl, there’s a sexual fantasy for that, or if she seems like a sweet girl, there’s an expectation of what she would be like as a girlfriend. The men that have gone even further down the “bad path” then assess her value, which I find unfortunate. Anyways, from all of this, they decide what they might get out of her, and whether it’s worth pursuing. If it’s worth pursuing, they then devise an action plan for how they’re going to persuade this woman to play the part they’ve made in their head for her.

So you approach her, you’re talking to her, she feels that you’re looking to get something out of the conversation, and now she’s processing what that might be, while you’re talking. Neither of these people is actually considering the other person from an empathetic standpoint at this point, and they may be setting themselves up for failure. He’s trying to get around her defences, and she is trying to keep them up because she already doesn’t trust him. She might not even subconsciously know that, but it’s a natural instinct to detect when someone wants something from you. Just think about when you walk into a car dealership, and the salespeople really want to sell you a car. They might be masters at it, but there’s always a sense of not trusting the person, and a feeling that they’re not being real with you.

People have this issue to varying degrees - not being real. Many men can easily pick up on a woman who has an agenda. Women can do the same.

Men go to online dating communities, and many of the newbies still have a sense of falling in love with a woman for her personality and what makes her unique and special, and they want to learn more about her as a person, and really understand her point of view. They come out weaponized with advice on how they should have an agenda, expect to achieve it, how they should analyze women for worth, and how they should use techniques and hone their skills so that they can win.

They go in as natural born lovers, and come out like sales guys.

And what makes this really worthy of compassion is the fact that the motivation is a good one. They just want to find love, like everybody else. They’re not bad people at their core, but they’re weakened by loneliness and a desire to belong, and feel accepted, and it makes them vulnerable to being contaminated by these ideologies that actually hinder their ability to nurture love, rather than helping it. Many of them learn that they can’t get feelings of love and belonging from women - that dating a woman is like a business relationship and the only reason you want to do it is to pass on your genes. :/

That’s why I like to give advice sometimes, and I guess I’ve somewhat gotten in the habit of it. Can’t mention empathy, because so many men have contempt for it. But there’s more tactful ways to deliver advice that can hopefully contradict some of the bad information they’re receiving.
 

Ex-User (14663)

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When it comes to how mainstream society views dating-advice communities though, I think it lags about 20 years behind and is heavily infused with images of old-school pickup-artist culture from the days of Neil Strauss’ “The Game” etc. A lot of that stuff was indeed misogynistic and based on cheap tricks. When I was first introduced to pickup culture in my late teens it was already at that point a different culture, defined by people like David Deangelo and was almost entirely based on personal growth and general life philosophy with maybe 10% of it being aimed at direct advice pertaining to interaction with women. I have little insight into incel culture but from what I have seen, these more modern approaches to dating advice would be diametrically opposed to everything they believe.
 

peoplesuck

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Love talking with you Inex ^_^
The consequences of feeling that feeling and doing nothing to help could be severe for an empathetic person. They might never forgive themselves.
I actually just realized my deepest fear yesterday, Its watching someone I love die, knowing I could have saved them. I know if I were put in that position I would take any risk to protect them, because I wouldnt want to live knowing I let them die.
I love how you’ve taken your experience with the dog as such a philosophical lesson. You remind me of me in so many ways. There’s definitely nothing wrong with having mom qualities.
I think we are very similar, you were put through shitty relationships, and Ive been alone. In some ways, im you, if you never had those relationships, and you're me, If I did.
Neat :P
They show morality, a sense of justice, a predisposition to bravery and courage.
Yes well, I cannot prove it, but the more you develop closeness to your people, the more the US VS THEM mindset is set in stone. There was a study that showed oxytocin actually reinforced the US VS THEM mentality. Look it up, yo.
The sense of justice is what leads some to evil. I could see that in myself 100%. But I see it in myself, I question myself too much, so Its like watching someone else in many ways.

I dont believe evil is common. I think people do evil things with good intentions most of the time.
It seems to be true that people that have more empthay need a bit longer to achieve emotional control. There’s more emotions to control, afterall. Also, empathy thrives in environments where people have been well cared for - even somewhat coddled, so that, also, might affect relative maturity level.
So mauch to control. When I was younger I went through a phase of my empathy being way to strong, it was terrible.
Ive always felt other peoples emotions much stronger than my own.
My empathy is probably the only reason im not a violent terrible person, it kept me on the rails.
but a lack of empathy in and of itself is a sign of immaturity. Worse, it’s a sign that someone could be dangerous/hurtful.
I agree, I worry about those people.
I think that’s when you get your Hitlers of the word.
I think he had good intentions. He went about it wrong though.
Anyways, I think your feelings about this dog may be somewhat indicative that you might be an empath, like me.
probably, I may have a shitload of empathy repressed, hopefully not though.
If it helps, both Allie and I love soft stuff and cuddling.
I look forward to having someone to sleep with and smoosh. My lady friend loves the fact that I unconsciously caress her, its weird but super soothing. Do you do that too XD?
I also find that people who have more experience in working introspectively with their empathy seem to find it easy to turn it on and off. So in a way, empathetic people seem to actually be capable of more ruthlessness than ave
I do not agree. repress? yes. like a soldier.
You have to remember the lucifer affect as well. we dehumanize people who arent OURS and do terrible things to them.
The lucifer affect book, the only book I actually could not get through, it was too depressing.
empathetic people seem to actually be capable of more ruthlessness than average people, maybe
I could see it, only to protect though.
Well anyways - that’s me rambling! Moral of the story - I don’t think you should see yourself as less of a man for being empathetic.
I dont, but it made me feel a bit defective for most of my life.
it just so happened that the empath feels responsible for that person, and terrified for their safety, they might very well choose to save them.
I understand that mindset. Im the middle child, but my older siblings either left or have crippling mental issues. I was essentially the oldest as far as responsablities went
This is the kind of feeling that galvanizes women into wanting to save kids, even if they’re not their own, and I think the reason older siblings get the Purple Heart more is because those are the empaths that we’re made to nurture their sense of responsibility for others, so their teammates were “theirs” in a way women think of children as “theirs”.
I feel protective towards other peoples kids, a total mom, yo.
Anyways...definitely hold on to that feeling of the dog. It’s obviously pulling at something on a deep level for you. If you can understand that something, maybe you can control it better. If you can control it, then maybe you don’t have to hate it for controlling you?
Its that the dog is me, the dog does what I do, internally. I cant put up with the dog because the dog is just like me. If I can learn to accept the dog, I can accept myself, and vice versa.
The only problem I have with my empathy is I cannot put myself first, because their pain hurts me toooooooooo. I feel responsible for soothing people, but I guess im immature and Im working on it.


Incels and men hating women are always gonna exist, people can be spiteful over the littlest of things. I wonder if a community online is gives them a release that they're not alone, which would prevent the repression of themselves from developing a large and dangerous shadow is useful, or does the echo chamber of support from like-minded individuals cause more violence/hatred?
Its very clear that the people who get the wrong thoughts echoed back, act on them. They arent spiteful over the littlest of things. Its loneliness, take it from me, I have been in their mindset, not for too long, but I was there. I understand how people get to that point.
Their anger is misguided frustration. If you dont understand, Jus trus me oki?
The main issue is that they can be the thing that echoes their thoughts, if they have no one. The problem is that, we need people to remind us that people arent terrible, and if you have nobody, assumptions run wild.
Or dont believe me, I dont actually care, but if you do care, believe me.
 

Rebis

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Incels and men hating women are always gonna exist, people can be spiteful over the littlest of things. I wonder if a community online is gives them a release that they're not alone, which would prevent the repression of themselves from developing a large and dangerous shadow is useful, or does the echo chamber of support from like-minded individuals cause more violence/hatred?
Incels aren’t the rule of thumb, and I actually don’t know to what degree they would “always exist”. Actually, I think the internet may have largely created incels. At the point that someone is an Incel they seem to be fairly far gone.
I meant in the sense groups of people will hate other groups of people, incels and men-hating-women are just another iteration of virulent cesspits.
# "Virulent cesspits huh, sounds like an increasing sensitivity to digust"

It definitely gives them a release. The community is a therapeutic escape for many.

There’s a slippery slope though that creates men like incels, from what I can see. Men come to the online dating advice community looking for tactics and techniques. Already, by doing so, they’ve demonstrated a fair few red flags.

First off, they’ve demonstrated the belief that other men have successful relationships because they have more skill with women. Sort of like how someone might be able to hit the bullseye because they have more skill with a bow and arrow.

The first step they went through before coming to the community is to come to the conclusion that:
Women are not like men, therefore women are not like me, therefore I cannot relate to women.

If you can’t relate to someone, then what?
Then you need other people to teach you how to think and act.

Like most self-help books, these men come looking for strategies that will make them successful, without having to do any real personal development. They want success and they want it now, and having to develop yourself is much more work then using quick fixes to get your way.

I think one thing we need to do, as a culture, is to start better understanding sexism. Because this idea that I mentioned - it’s not misogyny. It’s sexism. Sexism is where misogyny stems from. It seems to me that in this community, when men are sexist, and particularly when they objectify women, they’re setting themselves up to one day become misogynistic after they’ve been repeatedly rejected. That’s how the Incels are made.

Men who fail at dating don’t see humans that way. They see everyone around them as actors in their own story. People who they want to make play a part, so they can live out the fantasy in their head. When that attitude gets used with women, men imagine she should be a certain way (innocent for instance), and they fantasize about what she would be like if she were in their life, and then they try to find the techniques that will make that possible.

But you’re ignoring the real world and the fact that everyone has their own story and their own life, and that your beliefs about who someone is or what they’ll be like in your life are almost always wrong.

When he comes to her with the motivation to get something out of her, most women can immediately pick up on that. Empathy helps us to determine whether or not someone means us harm. If someone approaches you without an agenda, they’re probably safe. If they have an ulterior motive - what is it? So this emotional environment he’s created by nurturing unspoken expectations has already set off warning bells in most women’s heads to say “this guy is up to something.”

Could you elaborate on an example pertaining to the last paragraph? For example, I recalled asking a girl to come over and she cancelled, pretty obvious she picked up on my intent even though it wasn't confined to just sex, I would happily watched some netflix but it doesn't go down like that anymore, busy people are picky. Though she picked up on my intent and persistence I don't see as a bad thing, I mean it's happened in the opposite order where girls ask to come over after a few drinks, but while the intent is known it isn't conspiratory.

Or do you mean something darker, like men using females as a rebound or purely for sex interpersonal development being absent in the equation? I don't think intent is subterfuge unless the party has established a different vein of interactions like only being friends or not being Friends With Benefits (FWB, i'm not sure about the etymology of this phrase and if has penetrated your generation.)

Now some men, with a phenomenal amount of confidence, get around this by just being totally blatant about what they’re after. “Hey, I think you’re really attractive. Can I take you out to dinner?”
As you can imagine, though, those men aren’t on dating advice forums asking pick up artists for advice.

Anyways...I have more to say on the issue, but on the outset, that’s one of the major reasons I think men fail. They look at her and they stereotype her. First, as a woman, then, probably as a type of woman. From that, they develop fantasies and expectations. Maybe if she seems like a bad girl, there’s a sexual fantasy for that, or if she seems like a sweet girl, there’s an expectation of what she would be like as a girlfriend. The men that have gone even further down the “bad path” then assess her value, which I find unfortunate. Anyways, from all of this, they decide what they might get out of her, and whether it’s worth pursuing. If it’s worth pursuing, they then devise an action plan for how they’re going to persuade this woman to play the part they’ve made in their head for her.
Oh damn. Well I can say fantasy plays a strong sexual component in people's life, it's like their own sexually-centric fable, I think the difference between the average person and this mentality is the actual strategem applied to yield the fruits of the labour (Yes, the girl is the object fruit ) . It's easy to imagine life with another, looking at the personality dynamics and subtleties of each but planning for it is guaranteed failure. They should get robots, a logically subservient machine which you can programme exactly how you want.
 

Rebis

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When it comes to how mainstream society views dating-advice communities though, I think it lags about 20 years behind and is heavily infused with images of old-school pickup-artist culture from the days of Neil Strauss’ “The Game” etc. A lot of that stuff was indeed misogynistic and based on cheap tricks. When I was first introduced to pickup culture in my late teens it was already at that point a different culture, defined by people like David Deangelo and was almost entirely based on personal growth and general life philosophy with maybe 10% of it being aimed at direct advice pertaining to interaction with women. I have little insight into incel culture but from what I have seen, these more modern approaches to dating advice would be diametrically opposed to everything they believe.
This is just a product of any generalization really, I mean consider the situation for the most part: Person A talks to person B online, tries to plan a strategy to reel them in, they talk to Person C (Who doesn't know anything about person B) and Person C suggests a way to approach the situation. Clearly that's just a plain gamble. People feel powerless, create models on the "powerful" and attempt to emulate similar conditions. Can we call misogyny something other than a person's poor attempt at understanding complexity? Simplifications always offend in the realm of complex behaviour, misogyny is another threaded string. Occam rupert the 3rd's Razor of titanium design, and such.

Incels and men hating women are always gonna exist, people can be spiteful over the littlest of things. I wonder if a community online is gives them a release that they're not alone, which would prevent the repression of themselves from developing a large and dangerous shadow is useful, or does the echo chamber of support from like-minded individuals cause more violence/hatred?
Its very clear that the people who get the wrong thoughts echoed back, act on them. They arent spiteful over the littlest of things. Its loneliness, take it from me, I have been in their mindset, not for too long, but I was there. I understand how people get to that point.
Their anger is misguided frustration. If you dont understand, Jus trus me oki?
The main issue is that they can be the thing that echoes their thoughts, if they have no one. The problem is that, we need people to remind us that people arent terrible, and if you have nobody, assumptions run wild.
Or dont believe me, I dont actually care, but if you do care, believe me.
I believe you, sure.
 

Ex-User (14663)

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Basically I think incel and mgtow are not people who are actually interested in figuring anything out, they are instead preoccupied with justifying a worldview in which they are powerless.
 

peoplesuck

caretaker of machines
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They gave up and now they are justifying it.
 

Rebis

Blessed are the hearts that can bend
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They gave up and now they are justifying it.
The girls are lyin, she likes cheetos but won't accept the soggy cheetos in my gatorade, dumb bitch

Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk
 

peoplesuck

caretaker of machines
Local time
Yesterday, 22:35
Joined
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Messages
1,623
Location
only halfway there
They gave up and now they are justifying it.
The girls are lyin, she likes cheetos but won't accept the soggy cheetos in my gatorade, dumb bitch

Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk
I know a guy who refers to woman as bumps in the road.
LMAO
u proud of me rebis, i hav don good?
 
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