The Hangman of P........?

[Polaris]

P for Procrastination?

I have just read the thread on posting threads by Blob. It spurred me on to quit my momentary procrastination and create a new thread on procrastination.

I know a couple of others here have already posted procrastination threads.....anyway, I have some questions, so if you cannot be bothered with the intro, just skip to the end. (The intro is my personal experience with severe procrastination). There, you are warned.

Not sure how many responses this will generate, and the topic has probably been done to death, but the point is I’ll be happy to get just a few views from other INTP’s (some may remember vaguely that I introduced myself as a “nosy INTJ”.....but I have every reason to believe, after spending some time on this wonderful forum, that I am definitely stronger in the P-department.......)

I have reached this conclusion, as I seem to periodically have this strong tendency to.....eh......uhm......err.....argh...............

........................procrastinate.

Now, to me there are two types of procrastination:

1) Short-term procrastination.

2) Long-term procrastination.

The first type affects all those little every day things that are necessary for us to have a reasonably ordered life. Like washing clothes, paying bills, going grocery shopping, doing homework, etc.

Failure to get on with it and get things done can lead to momentary frustration and a sense of failure at the end of the day as one has achieved pretty much nothing of the socially accepted human behaviour- kind of tasks for that particular day.

That usually happens if I have planned what to do and not followed the plan, due to other distractions, such as the......uhm.....intp forum.........

Come the following day and I may finally get things done, I even fit in a visit to a friend that I have been putting off for weeks, and at the end of the day I have a sense of accomplishment.

I am happy and pleased that I have done my little chores, but I also know that there is a deeper sense of accomplishment, as I have battled the Demons of Procrastination.

Now the DoP (in short) are remnants of the past. They popped up at a time in my life when I started questioning the purpose of everything. The Demons of Existentialism would probably be a better description for this malady. My thinking self would question the purpose of sticking to a routine, for example, and therefore stop the routine as an experiment.

This was quite pleasant. For a while.

Then things got out of hand, to the point where one started questioning the purpose of getting out of bed in the morning.....

This was about two months into the “experiment”. Short-term procrastination had turned into:

2) Long-term procrastination. Was it depression? I had brought it on myself, and now my comfortable life had become miserable. I had made it a habit to say: I’ll do it tomorrow. Tomorrow never happened.

Why I had entered this peculiar state of mind, I am not sure, but I can guess... I was in a job that sucked, I was in a relationship that sucked, and I wanted to get out, but felt stuck. I was paralysed by fear of failure, and a general lack of confidence. I wanted to move on, go back to uni, get out of the relationship......but there was a dead weight around my feet. DoP.

Long-term procrastination. What is it? Is it a form of clinical depression? Quote: There is nothing in my life that brings me joy; I have lost interest and drive. If I do a), b) or c), what is the point? So I didn’t do any of them. In the end I was stuck with a whole alphabet of things that were seemingly pointless. I had entered a vicious circle of existentialism-like thinking. My mind was my hangman.

I started watching day time TV. Oh dear, big mistake. It was addictive, as it was the only escape I had. After switching off the TV, I would get into a severe state of depression. I had nothing. I was nothing. It felt hopeless. I became suicidal. I sincerely believed that being dead would be better than being in the state of mind I was in. It would be a relief.

Then my questioning started again.........what if I did end my life? What would the point be in that? Who would benefit? My worst enemy.....? Who the hell would that be? I started thinking of my family, people who knew me as a friend....my partner....as much as he was a nuisance.....damn it....if I did this......how would he react?

I could not bear the thought. I realized I cared more for him and several other people more than I had previously thought. Ending my life would be an utterly cowardly and rather selfish act. What would I achieve? To be dead? And I wouldn’t even be there to saviour the sweet nothing.......

I concluded I did not know enough about being dead, so I decided to put that idea on ice for now......

It is strange, but I would say I have been fortunate to have experienced this time of my life. I look back on it now, and think: Ok, that was a bit extreme. I had pushed my self to the edge of reasoning. I had done it in the solitary confinement of procrastination. A very dangerous place to be if one is unaware of the paths it could open up..........to be subject to the hangman of one’s own rationalism.

So what is procrastination?

Is it self-doubt?

Is it general doubt (the existential problem)?

Or is it more simply just laziness and boredom? (I would, for the benefit of doubt that I have decided to credit to humanity itself, and my subsequent inherent belief in humanity’s capacity to love, .........say not. Hence my next point).

Is laziness and boredom not just the side-effects of self-doubt and a tendency to question life? The signature trait of Introverts/Intuitive? And therefore their tendency to become isolated beings, isolated not only from other humans, but also consequently from emotion (a guarding mechanism), and therefore also finally isolated from love ?

If we could learn to become more sensory, would we be more inclined to act on our impulses/decisions?

These last few questions are just random trains of thought I have decided to put down in order to generate a wide array of responses. (hopefully.......conversely, this could turn into an absolute ass of a thread, seeing that I may have put some individuals off by the sheer length of my introduction.....)

I guess I am still seeking answers......and you INTP’s seem to me to be the most capable of generating profound insights, without buying into the concepts too much.

I am sure Kierkegaard and several others have covered this topic profoundly, but....what are your views?

The blessing of being....a procrastinator?

And now I’m finally off to renew my license......two weeks after it expired.......

 

[Polaris]

And it has indeed turned out to be an ass-thread.....lol...

 

[Words]

Well the only thing that got me moving was....hunger and other basic needs. I dislike discomfort so lets move away from that. Then, there's exercise. Exercise lessens doubt..methinks. You could try an experiment of doing absolutely nothing....i think you'll eventually move.

 

[Polaris]

Hmmmmm.....I wasn't actually looking for advice on how to manage procrastination. More an answer to my questions.

 

[Anthile]

I'm not exactly sure why I should let this thread remain open or shouldn't merge with another existing thread. There already are dozens of threads about procrastination and even a fairly recent one.



Also, Comic Sans? What the hell?`

 

[Polaris]

Do whatever you need to do.......delete it if you like, people must be tired of the topic.

Perhaps Comic Sans is the culprit......

Anyway, just thought I'd annoy you a bit more, mwuhahahahahahah.....

Edit: How can I delete this thread? It is useless.

 

[cheese]

Polaris, I have no idea how to answer your questions, but they are ones I ask myself a lot. I think a lot of us here have gone through similar things - reasoning ourselves towards depression, or at least an apathetic state with many symptoms of clinical depression. I don't think psychology caters for this sort of depression, and it seems fairly pointless talking to shrinks. The only people that provided any respite for me were academics and others of similar persuasion. (I'm sure the methods advocated by shrinks to fix behaviour identified as faulty are helpful, but the problem is implementing them, or believing in 'problems' or 'solutions'.)

I don't know what to think about boredom, procrastination, lack of discipline and so on. I don't know why I do the things I do, or don't. How is it that the things I want don't happen? That might sound like an incredibly stupid question, and maybe it is, but I have given a lot of thought to this and I just keep coming up against a wall. There seems to be a disconnect between my intention and what happens. "Action, duh -_-" Well, yes. But WHY am I not taking the necessary actions? Why? I fully intend to, and it doesn't happen! In some ways the external world terrifies me because it seems so far removed from my inner world of intent, and I constantly, constantly fail at bridging the two. And yet I know there's a lack of effort somewhere.

I think Eminem actually captured this very well in Deja Vu:

Sometimes I feel so alone,
I just don't know, feels like I been down this road before.
So lonely and cold, it's like something takes over me,
soon as I go home and close the door.
Kinda feels like Deja Vu, I wanna get away from this place I do,
but I can't and I wont say I tried but I know that's a lie cuz I don't,
and why I just don't know.....

YouTube- Eminem - Déjà vu from Relapse with lyrics

Addiction is closely related to this topic I think (discipline). I find this interesting: I say I tried, but I know that's a lie cos I don't, and I don't know why (slightly altered). Conflicting desires can severely restrict action. There's research that indicates decision-making is quite heavily dependent on emotions. A cost-benefit analysis with a damaged amygdala results in no result. Without emotional attachment we lack bias, and bias often seems to be the driving force behind decision-making. Perhaps we simply don't have strong enough inclinations except the inclination to trust reason, and that prevents us from merely 'going along' (the saving grace of many others with no drive).

I've heard all the pat answers before, and perhaps they are accurate. "Well clearly he doesn't know what he truly wants. He's weak." "He just needs to get up and DO it." Maybe, maybe. But how do we know we can do anything other than what we do? Those that do manage to 'just do it' obviously managed to make themselves do so. Have I managed that? No. Was it a choice though? Or were the processes comprising 'me' at the time simply unable to make that call?

I think this discussion leads inevitably to the question of blame. Is this a valid concept? Tied strongly to the self of course. I don't want to go through all this now. It's just another circle, round and round and round! Actually it's because I'm lazy. Who the hell am I? How the fuck am I asking this question? I'm not asking the question; the question is being asked. It's a manifestation of a processing error. Who the 'I' is in the former is different.

I'm sure if I make enough effort I can get to some answer satisfactory enough to get on with life. I should try harder. Shoulds!

Just because the current situation isn't sufficient to elicit the desired behaviour doesn't mean additional tweaks won't improve the output though. I think the idea of blame/objective morality is a social convenience. We're all part of a complex causal web. Blame and agency draw enough threads after it, and contribute to the survival of the whole. They're useful, and perhaps as truthful as anything else in the human world.

May be messy and incoherent, sorry. I wrote it in chunks and am very reluctant to consider the topic further at the moment. (Or maybe I'm in the middle of dinner.)

 

[Polaris]

@Cheese:

I really appreciate your recognition of the depth of my questions. That is why I made a separate thread on it, as my questions explore the more psychological reasons for procrastination, and I did not want to derail anyone else's thread by asking these questions. I don't know if anyone else actually picked up on that......but it is something that has intrigued and nagged me for years. I have quite a few thoughts on your reply, but I'm about to go out. I will reply as soon as I have some head space, as you said, it takes some commitment to actually consider this topic, as it is quite confronting.

 

[cheese]

I was actually surprised and relieved to find your thread. Perhaps we're just romanticising victimhood and slipping into roles that aren't rightfully ours, but it's comforting to see someone else is/was as deluded as I am.

My mind was fairly scattered last night - reading things over, I have a much clearer idea of what I want to say (I think the previous post was more "OMG ME TOO sobsob").

My main points are:
the danger of rationality (in agreement with you)
the importance of emotion as a drive, and 'present-mindedness' (in agreement with you)
the fundamental connectedness of all things, or causal web

Addressing the third point:
I think people need to simultaneously develop themselves and be aware that they're integrated into a network of life (AVATAR VIRUS ALERT. REFUSE REQUEST TO GROW DREADS). No one can fully divorce themselves from the influence of others. We're gelled masses of matter who've developed the ability to register and communicate the processes unfolding in ourselves, and from there we make the erroneous conclusion that individuality = autonomy. It doesn't, at least not in the way many envision it. We are as much moved as we are movers. Help, advice, assurance, love - these are all programmes downloaded into us that affect how we function.

What does this mean...
Everything happens as it does. I don't think choice is a total illusion, and that illusion is helpful for maintaining or increasing benefits. Basically: if you (not you, Polaris!) think you need help, you should try as many places as you can to get it. If you don't think you need help, but you're miserable and want things to change, you should talk to someone or do something, anything, different. Additional input increases the chances of altering the present state.

I also agree that the I/N/T - my addition - tends to become dangerously isolated from emotion which:
diminishes their drive, and
isolates them from love (as you said).

 

[Polaris]

Polaris, I have no idea how to answer your questions, but they are ones I ask myself a lot. I think a lot of us here have gone through similar things - reasoning ourselves towards depression, or at least an apathetic state with many symptoms of clinical depression. I don't think psychology caters for this sort of depression, and it seems fairly pointless talking to shrinks. The only people that provided any respite for me were academics and others of similar persuasion. (I'm sure the methods advocated by shrinks to fix behaviour identified as faulty are helpful, but the problem is implementing them, or believing in 'problems' or 'solutions'.)

Yes, I think you are right. Psychology seems to be more obsessed with delving into the past events, and rooting up as much filth as possible. That may work for some individuals, who have maybe gone into a rejection-mode as a protective mechanism. I am no psychologist, so I may be wrong....however, I have spent plenty of time going over the past and managed to identify something (without the help of psychologists): I was not a procrastinator as a child. And why would a child, who lives in a perpetual state of the here and now, even have a reason to procrastinate? To them, every moment is just what it is: Right Now. Right Now has no connection to the future or the past, in a child’s mind.

There are ways to deal with thought patterns, Cognitive Behavioural Therapy seems to a practical way of retraining old thought patterns into new ones, that is, if one is willing and receptive to being reprogrammed like a robot. That may not be such a bad thing if the condition has become pathological, such as severe OCD. My partner at the time actually suffered from this condition (which is in many ways just another form of procrastination) to the extent where he could not leave work at night, staying back and checking and re-checking everything he had done for the day, and even running around the building checking all the windows and taps. He went to see someone who did CBT (not a psychologist, just a GP), and he was able to get off his medication and have a reasonably normal life after about three months.

It makes me wonder if CBT would be the ideal thing for severe procrastinators.....

I don't know what to think about boredom, procrastination, lack of discipline and so on. I don't know why I do the things I do, or don't. How is it that the things I want don't happen? That might sound like an incredibly stupid question, and maybe it is, but I have given a lot of thought to this and I just keep coming up against a wall.

It is not a stupid question, in fact, it is the question. My theory is if you are brought up to believe in yourself, you are better able to act on your wishes, or whatever one might call them. Is it a need? No. We are perfectly complete already, and will not be better or happier humans if we start believing what society wants us to believe. But we have been programmed right from childhood to think that one must achieve certain goals before one is a complete person.

So there is a burden of expectations resting on our shoulders, right from when a parent decides to only praise you when you do well, and say nothing when you don’t. The silence says more than a thousand words. It is Maslow’s Pyramid in all its hierarchical glory, and Pavlov’s Dog, in all its hairy manifestation. The child will strive to please their parent, so that the necessary praise (praise=love) is eventually received. This becomes learned behaviour, and so the foundation is laid for a vicious circle.

There seems to be a disconnect between my intention and what happens. "Action, duh -_-" Well, yes. But WHY am I not taking the necessary actions? Why? I fully intend to, and it doesn't happen! In some ways the external world terrifies me because it seems so far removed from my inner world of intent, and I constantly, constantly fail at bridging the two. And yet I know there's a lack of effort somewhere.

If one can stop identifying with one’s learned thoughts, and look at emotional responses from a point of detachment, one would be able to see the miserable patterns established over the years. As you said, action is a result of an emotional trigger, and the sense of unease that comes from the programmed connection between thoughts of inadequacy and that resulting negative emotional response. I do not know if that is the case with you, but I believe that is what I sometimes struggle with.

On a slight side note, I think it is important to go back to remembering the child’s mindset again now and then. I think Snowqueen mentioned something about it in a thread, and I was like: Exactly. It is about seeing things with new eyes, the art of rediscovering the little things that once used to be great objects of fascination.

I still have my natural curiosity, and I think it has been my saving grace. This is a trivial and clichéd example, but when you look at a flower, you eliminate the word flower from your mind and still your thoughts. As your mind is still and uncluttered by noisy word processing, you are able to let the impression of the flower work directly on your sensory faculties. You start seeing something far more complex and profound; you are looking at perfection of creation or evolution. It is like gazing into an endless abyss of time, where the flower becomes atoms and electrons vibrating at certain frequencies, and the presence of light photons allows certain colours vibrate at other frequencies. It is perfectly ordered chaos, encapsulated in a single little entity. You become lost in wonder at how such a thing could even begin.

Addiction is closely related to this topic I think (discipline). I find this interesting: I say I tried, but I know that's a lie cos I don't, and I don't know why (slightly altered). Conflicting desires can severely restrict action.

Do you think conflicting desires are really the conflict between what you think you should be doing, and what you actually already know if you probe further? Is it really what you want? Or is it what someone else (society, parents, external influences) expects, and so their expectations become yours? Is that you anymore? Where do you fit in all this?

There's research that indicates decision-making is quite heavily dependent on emotions. A cost-benefit analysis with a damaged amygdala results in no result. Without emotional attachment we lack bias, and bias often seems to be the driving force behind decision-making. Perhaps we simply don't have strong enough inclinations except the inclination to trust reason, and that prevents us from merely 'going along' (the saving grace of many others with no drive).

I do not think we need emotion, as much as clarity. Reasoning is thought, and thought triggers emotion, often very subtle emotion. Like that underlying feeling of unease. If we can understand what thoughts trigger what emotion, we can disengage from thought, and let the self be freed from the ego, who wants, needs, craves and feeds on negative thoughts.

Once you are aware of how the egotistical self controls you, you have the power of objectivity, and the resulting more productive, positive thoughts. You are then able to rationalise without interference of learned thinking and behaviour. And decisions will be true to you and free of emotional baggage.

I think this discussion leads inevitably to the question of blame. Is this a valid concept? Tied strongly to the self of course. I don't want to go through all this now. It's just another circle, round and round and round! Actually it's because I'm lazy. Who the hell am I? How the fuck am I asking this question? I'm not asking the question; the question is being asked. It's a manifestation of a processing error. Who the 'I' is in the former is different.

Exactly. The question is being asked. By who? The processing error is the interference of the other self (learned robotic product of other people’s influence) and the real you. The former “I”, is who you are. It has merely been forgotten in the process of “growing up”.

I'm sure if I make enough effort I can get to some answer satisfactory enough to get on with life. I should try harder. Shoulds

I think the harder you try, the more the real you will resist. The “should” is your robotic self talking in your ear. The never ending dialogue that clouds everything. What did John Lennon say: “Life is what happens to you while you’re busy making other plans”. I think it is important to identify the emotion that is driving the "should". If it is negative, I think eventually the outcome will be negative.

Just because the current situation isn't sufficient to elicit the desired behaviour doesn't mean additional tweaks won't improve the output though. I think the idea of blame/objective morality is a social convenience. We're all part of a complex causal web. Blame and agency draw enough threads after it, and contribute to the survival of the whole. They're useful, and perhaps as truthful as anything else in the human world.

You are right, they are drivers, but not destined to have great outcomes, necessarily. I think blame and agency is probably what stops us from being true to ourselves. When we are true to ourselves, and disrespectful enough of our own egotism, we are more at peace. A person who is at peace is easy to be around. If all people were at peace we would not have blame. There would be no wars, discrimination, envy or resentment.

But you are right, the truth at the moment is quite different. Can we change it?

May be messy and incoherent, sorry. I wrote it in chunks and am very reluctant to consider the topic further at the moment. (Or maybe I'm in the middle of dinner.)

I understand you perfectly. I also understand why it is a difficult topic. I hope your dinner was good.

I was actually surprised and relieved to find your thread. Perhaps we're just romanticising victimhood and slipping into roles that aren't rightfully ours, but it's comforting to see someone else is/was as deluded as I am.
I am not worried about what people may think of my thoughts. I think being honest goes a long way, and who knows, perhaps someone is getting something out of this, if only to know they are not alone.

My mind was fairly scattered last night - reading things over, I have a much clearer idea of what I want to say (I think the previous post was more "OMG ME TOO sobsob").

My main points are:
the danger of rationality (in agreement with you)
the importance of emotion as a drive, and 'present-mindedness' (in agreement with you)
the fundamental connectedness of all things, or causal web

Addressing the third point:
I think people need to simultaneously develop themselves and be aware that they're integrated into a network of life (AVATAR VIRUS ALERT. REFUSE REQUEST TO GROW DREADS). No one can fully divorce themselves from the influence of others. We're gelled masses of matter who've developed the ability to register and communicate the processes unfolding in ourselves, and from there we make the erroneous conclusion that individuality = autonomy. It doesn't, at least not in the way many envision it. We are as much moved as we are movers. Help, advice, assurance, love - these are all programmes downloaded into us that affect how we function.

Yes, we are more or less encouraged to be as individualistic as possible, and with that comes separation. Separation becomes isolation. Isolation from the single most important commodity we have, which is love. Christianity and other religions have the potential for positive change, but are often unfortunately subject to interpretation by inflated egos and so we have the opposite effect.

When we are at peace with who we are, and able to let go of our pathological loop-thinking, I think we are better able to function in the community.

What does this mean...
Everything happens as it does. I don't think choice is a total illusion, and that illusion is helpful for maintaining or increasing benefits. Basically: if you (not you, Polaris!) think you need help, you should try as many places as you can to get it. If you don't think you need help, but you're miserable and want things to change, you should talk to someone or do something, anything, different. Additional input increases the chances of altering the present state.

Yes. Carrying the burden alone is never healthy. It is easy to become entangled in internal dialogues and “reasoning”. A new perspective can do wonders.

And thinking isn’t always a great thing. Thinking works when it is used for something useful. Apart from that, we don’t really need thoughts....oooh, sacrilege......

And writing thoughts down is a great way of getting them out of the head....