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The Many Faces of INFJ

Adymus

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Note To INTPForum:
Okay, so I actually wrote this thread for the INFJ forum, which is why you will notice it is written as if speaking to INFJs. However, I am posting it here as well, because I thought you guys might enjoy this as well. Also, I am sick and tired of explaining why certain personalities are INFJs, just because they don't match the descriptions. I'm finally setting the record straight, so there.

Preface:

The INFJ personality type is by in large most misunderstood type. This is mainly do to the incompetence of MBTI implementation, by introducing personality types by a single description. Nobody was ever meant to match up perfectly to a single description. The MBTI descriptions are really only describing what the personality type will be like if they have only their top two functions developed. You see if a personality has well developed lower functions, or a well developed Tertiary and under developed Auxiliary, then they will contradict the description. The only real way to grasp a personality type is if you took a whole free range of many different models of said personality type, and let people swim around in it. But you can't really do that on the internet, or in a book now can you? This is why I advise you all to stop relying on matching people to internet descriptions, and start experiencing the Cognitive functions and personality types on your in, in the real world. To quote the great Carl Jung:

"Anyone who wants to know the human psyche will learn next to nothing from experimental psychology. He would be better advised to abandon exact science, put away his scholar's gown, bid farewell to his study, and wander with human heart through the world. There in the horrors of prisons, lunatic asylums and hospitals, in drab suburban pubs, in brothels and gambling-hells, in the salons of the elegant, the Stock Exchanges, socialist meetings, churches, revivalist gatherings and ecstatic sects, through love and hate, through the experience of passion in every form in his own body, he would reap richer stores of knowledge than text-books a foot thick could give him, and he will know how to doctor the sick with a real knowledge of the human soul."
-Carl Jung


Now while just about every type is in some way misunderstood to the vast majority of the MBTI community, the INFJ in particular was hit the hardest. There is an interesting phenomenon with the INFJ that I am pointing out in this thread: Depending on how an INFJ has developed, they can express their use of cognitive functions in ways that are radically different than other INFJ. There are INFJ that seem like T's, or S's, INFJs that seem like Extroverts or even Ps. INFJs that want to go out and save the world, and then INFJs that just want to shit on everything. The purpose of this thread is to introduce you into the possible models that INFJs in the world can turn out to be. Some them good, some of them bad, some of them just plain weird. While I am splitting INFJs into sub-types in this thread, keep in mind that none of them are a single sub-type, some of these sub-types mark a single ability that every INFJ has access to. This thread only explores the possible forms one might take when they are using the Ni-Fe-Ti-Se apparatus.
Enjoy.


The Academic:

This kind of INFJ is more often than not, confused for an INTJ, or even INTP. They still want to change the world and progress man kind in some way, but sometimes you got to play by science’s rules to cover any ground. While their focus in some way is usually still on people, they approach their research from a very academic and scientific stand point, without necessarily going out to personally teach the world in the INFJ mentor like way you would expect. Naturally these INFJs have a very well developed Ti, so well developed that they themselves would consider themselves thinkers before considering themselves feelers. But make no mistake; this is not Ni-Te they are using. Ni-Fe has a very distinct perception of worldview, and it can be maybe sense out of in a very logical manner using their Ti tertiary. But it is still just Ti’ed Ni-Fe. The Academics often do not use their Fe as warmly as the others might, this is for two reasons: Academia is srs bsns and when delivering facts and upholding an aura of authority, you don’t to look like a used car sales man. This is also because while they are talking, they are often running what they are going to say through Ti in real time, just to make sure everything is locally coherent. When you use Ti it withdrawals us from the world of personal connections, so it will actually deadpan and drop the emotion on your face (being an INTP myself, that is one I know all too well). If you grew up around a lot of Ti users, you are probably going to come out pretty similar to this, as an INFJ. Considering from day one, you really needed to have your theories tightened up in order for anyone to take you seriously. Sure it might have been brutal at first, but look at the bright side, now you have a really sweet Ti to help you take on the world with!
Fictional Examples: Professor Charles Xavier (X-Men)
Real-Life Examples: Dr. Drew, Paul Eckman, Carl Jung (Controversy time!)


The Method Actor

“Everybody knows you never go full retard”

This one right here, my friends, might just be the reason you INFJs have been documented as the rarest of types. Oh the power of the persona, when you project and image, people will create your identity based on that image, regardless of what is actually going on in your head. This marks an extremely uncanny ability that you INFJ folk have. The INFJ can invent an character within their Ni-Fe. They can write an entire story of their life, their family, their experience, their fears, their motivations, their quirks and mannerisms all within their Ni. Then when the time comes, then can channel that character into their Fe and Se to perfectly embody that role, in ways that can be so nuanced that you might not even know you are looking at the same person. Even if acting isn’t your thing, every INFJ still has this in them, and it often comes out in other ways. An INFJ could enter a completely foreign country, and within weeks, or even days, completely master their culture, and maybe even accent.

Fictional Examples: Song (M.Butterfly), Kirk Lazarus (Tropic Thunder)
Real-life Examples: Sasha Baron Cohen, and anyone who can properly play the Master of Masks prestige class in Dungeons and Dragons.

The Guru

“Life can be found only in the present moment. The past is gone, the future is not yet here, and if we do not go back to ourselves in the present moment, we cannot be in touch with life.”

Whether they are aware of this or not, just about every INFJ is in some way in search for enlightenment, some of them actually find it (Well, at least they think they did), and these are the Guru INFJs. The mentor instinct runs strong in the INFJ breed, and the sage illuminates those that surround her. So the next step is to use that collection of Ni natural law to progress the consciousness of the rest of humanity, by teaching it to the world… Or a handful of disciples. Now hopefully what they teach is something that can be applied to all personalities, and not just their own; I’m looking at you Eckhart Tolle, you German bastard! Just because you are an INFJ doesn’t mean we all are! You can just send any personality type into the desert for a few days, and expect them to come back thirty years older and with a boat load of insights of natural law, like the INFJs can. What is up with that anyway? I swear, you INFJs could stare at a chair for an hour and end up seeing the meaning of life somewhere in it.

Fictional Examples: Jesus, lol (If any Christians are reading this, then I am totally kidding. If not… Yeah…)
Real-Life examples: The Dalai Lama, Timothy Leary, Thich Nhat Hanh

The False Guru

“You can get your vitamins and nourishment from vitamins and minerals contained within food, or you can bypass food and hook into what we call the universal life force which is prahna.”

Again, the search for enlightenment and the mentor drive is pervasive among the INFJ. But not all that glitters is gold, and with all do respect, some of them are completely full of shit. Some of them are even aware that they are full of shit, and some of them are not, either way, these are the False Gurus. Just peruse the New Age movement for a little while and you are bound to see quite a few of these. They are usually surrounded by a cohort of poorly developed personalities (mainly NFs and SFs, But I have seen many others in these circles, even NTs) because all of the strong personalities who can smell their bullshit a mile away, leave. Which is all the better, weak minds don’t ask questions, which is perfect because the False Guru can’t answer them. All they can really do is sound really mystical and wifty and charm the hell out of you. Generally speaking, this is mainly the result of an INFJ who avoided their Ti, and are scared to death of the rest of the Ti and Te in the world, so they make sure they surround themselves with people with even weaker abilities than they have. While most False Guru’s teachings are pretty benign, some of them are very dangerous (Google the word Breatharianism), and could lead to cults as well as very destructive behavior. There is also the breed of false gurus that are deliberately manipulating and lying to people, just so they can be validated and worshiped as a messiah. Watch out for them, they are nothing more than energy vampires feeding off the praise of the faithful. So the next time you hear a Guru trying to tell people about the world, you really need to think critically about what they are saying. Nature wouldn’t have given us judgment if we were not expected to use it.
You didn’t really think I would have only good things to say about types of INFJs, right? Where light is cast, there will always be shadows. Don’t think for a second that just because Kiersey decided to call your kind “The Protectors”, it means you are all going to be a bunch of god damn do-gooders. Ni with Fe can give extremely powerful abilities, and with great power comes great responsibility. Sometimes this power falls into the wrong hands, and that is why there is a light and dark side to Ni.

Fictional Examples: I got nothing.
Real-Life Examples: Jazmuheen, Harley "[FONT=&quot]SwiftDeer[/FONT]" Reagan


The Cobra:

“OoOoOoOo, That’s a bingo!”

INFJs are not necessarily only good for long-range planning and being a visionary. They can be pretty damn scary when using that Ni and Fe for manipulative purposes.
The Cobra uses their Fe to be playful and seductive to get people to disarm and loosen up, all the while keeping a close Ni look on what is going on, drinking in as much information as possible with Se, and reserving their actions until their Ni tells them the perfect time to strike. And when they do, they go straight for the jugular. The name “Cobra” comes from the posture they sometimes take with their head upright and eyes narrowed, still, and looking straight forward onto their prey. Cobras make perfect secret agents and interrogators, which is why many of them are. They can read their subjects with uncanny accuracy and know just what to say and exactly how to act to get what they want out of anyone. Sometimes they can even get people to admit to crimes they didn’t even commit; luckily they know when they are lying too. Ever heard a person who could talk their way out being charged for murder? They were probably a Cobra INFJ. Don’t get charmed by the smile, watch the eyes, if you get strung along by their hypnotic Fe display, they fucking got you where they want you. All INFJs have a little bit of Cobra in them, what you do with it is entirely up to you. For the most part it is actually a defense mechanism, and they will embody the cobra for a quick escape when trouble arises.

Fictional Examples: Col. Hans Landa (Inglourious Basterds), Jarlaxle Baenre (Forgotten Realms, The Dark Elf Saga), Bill (Kill Bill)
Real-Life Examples: Bjork (Seriously.)


The Gypsy King:

The Gypsy King (or Queen) actually goes hand in hand with the Cobra, because they are really two sides of the same coin; the twin masters of INFJ trickery. However, the Gypsy uses their manipulation tactics for outright conning people. Now there seems to be an association with the ESTP and confidence artistry. I would say it is pretty undeserved; when it comes to manipulation, the sharky used car salesman ESTP, is child’s play when compared to the cunning foresight and hypnotic charm of the INFJ. The Gypsy King can figure a person out within seconds. A tattoo, a bruise, dark circles under the eyes, person looks down and to the left while talking, an expensive watch, tan lines on arms, all kinds of these random details that they take in through Se are their gateway into the minds of people, and then with a little speculation out of their Ni-Fe and Ti, they can have your whole life figured out within a blink of an eye, and know exactly how to approach you. Have you ever been to a psychic, who seemed to know everything about you? Things they couldn’t have possibly have known? Yeah, you just got INFJ’ed, Gypsy style. Conning people isn’t all malicious either, sometimes it is just good entertainment. That is why many of the Gypsy INFJs are Magicians; casting spells of perceptual redirection with displays of Fe and Se, to distract the audience in order to miss what is happening behind it all.

Fictional Examples: Shawn Spencer (Psych)
Real-Life Examples: John Edward, Criss Angel (MINDFREAK!!!111)

The Revolutionary:

“The only verdict is vengeance; a vendetta, held as a votive, not in vain, for the value and veracity of such shall one day vindicate the vigilant and the virtuous.”

Fuck yeah! What would this guide be without the INFJ Revo-motherfucking-lutionary!? The Revolutionary aspect is to the INFJs, as Superman is to the Superfriends, INDESPENSIBLE! I mean, this isn’t even a face of the INFJ, this is the INFJ. The INTJs might have been nick named “The Mastermind”, but being a mastermind really comes from being an Ni dominant more than it does from being a Thinker. The INFJ Revolutionaries are masterminds in their own right, visionaries of the people. Literally beginning as children, INFJs go through life observing the world. The inner workings of society, human behavior, and natural law become clear to them through their observations and experience. Naturally, their Ni begins expanding as their worldview, and through it they acquire a future vision of what the world should be like. The world would be so much better if it worked the way it did in their Ni, but it doesn’t, and that just fucking pisses them off. This deep dissatisfaction for the world as it is now is what fuels the revolutionary fire that burns in the hearts of the INFJ. Because the solutions to all of the world’s problems are obvious, so obvious that it is maddening to think that they and a few others are the only people who can see it. This dissatisfaction for society creates a certain adversarial nature for the INFJ, it is them against the world. But no matter, if the world we live in sucks, just make a new one!

Fictional Examples: V (V for Vendetta), Drizzt Do’Urden (Forgotten Realms, The Dark Elf Saga)
Real-Life Examples: Che Guevara, Martin Luther King

The Destroyer of worlds:

“Why me, because it's my revenge on this robotic society, because someone has to do it.”

The adversarial nature and discontent with society, is natural for the INFJs. However, at times, their adversarial worldview can become so strong that it turns to hatred, and the point of view that humans are just too stupid to live up to what they think they should live up to. The worse cases are when INFJs are also not in touch with their Fe. Their Ni will continue growing, and their Ti will make sense of it, but because they never get that push back for Fe, their worldview just becomes more and more detached and distorted from reality. This only perpetuates their hatred, because at the times they do try to articulate their distorted worldview, they are met with resistance from other people. Which leads them to a perspective that is no humans are worth saving, they are all just mindless idiots. Obviously these are very extreme cases, but make no mistake; they do exist, and have always existed. The Destroyers might even gain enough power to lead their own revolution, but it will be a revolution of hatred, destruction, and death. These kinds of INFJ also make some of the best villains in fiction, which everyone mistakes for INTJs on the forums. Apparently evil = T.

Fictional Examples: The Joker (Batman), Rorschach (The Watchmen), Tyler Durden (Fight Club), Light Yagami (Deathnote)
Real-Life Examples: GG Allin, Hitler (More controversy time!)

The SP Wannabe:

“Let me tell you a little something about the universe. Fuck you.”

Nobody expects the SP wannabe! They are the face of INFJ that as soon as most people see, they automatically think “ESTP”. Little do they know there is a massive worldview and understanding of human kind and natural law behind that rough and tumble exterior. They are by in large the most in your face and Alpha Male/Female you can get with the INFJ breed. It is actually quite normal and even common for all personality types to have a fetishy relationship with their inferior function. For the INFJ, this fetish comes in the flavor of Se. They go out into the world, grab Se by the balls, and show the world who’s in charge. This is how they master their shadow, by fighting it head on becoming their Shadow’s master. Most if not all INFJs take on the aspect of the SP wannabe for at least brief periods of time. It could be through martial arts, racing, cooking, a good friend of mine does it through Hula Hooping. It is all a part of learning how to live in the now. Some INFJs take this fetish to a whole new level, almost fascinated with the sensations; Retelling stories emphasizing every gory detail they can remember in full detail.

Fictional Examples: The Comedian (The Watchman)
Real-Life Examples: Henry Rollins, GG Allin again.
 

Words

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Rethinks own personality type.

It was a good read though what I see in Deathnote's Light is a Te covered in Fe, checked by Fi. There's more systematical planning in him and I don't see any desire to please people in him. He desires to please himself and his subjective values.

EDIT: Almost forgot, thanks for sharing.
 

Philosophyking87

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Great post. But where did you get all of this information from?
Is it personal, or derived from some other source?
 

Adymus

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Rethinks own personality type.

It was a good read though what I see in Deathnote's Light is a Te covered in Fe, checked by Fi. There's more systematical planning in him and I don't see any desire to please people in him. He desires to please himself and his subjective values.

EDIT: Almost forgot, thanks for sharing.
Actually his whole goal was technically to please people, he was trying to create an ideal society. Sure, he had a god complex (All the more reason to think INFJ), but ultimately Light's goal was to create an Ideal world. It is actually a very INFJ concept. Although, I will admit, he was still a fictional character, and will probably not fit perfectly with either INFJ or INTJ.

Seriously, everyone, including on INFJ forum , is just getting hung up on the examples I'm using.

"Baaaaawwww! I don't like like Sasha Baron Cohen, so I don't think he is an INFJ, just because I don't want him to be! Baawww!!"
 

Adymus

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Great post. But where did you get all of this information from?
Is it personal, or derived from some other source?
You know... I the vast majority I am going to have to say is from experience. Watching the personality types, noting their behavior, and analyzing how they are doing it. Not to mention having some good INFJ friends that take on a lot of these personas, and actually have a good understanding of their own cog function use.

But that is why I put up that Carl Jung quote at the beginning. The Best understanding of personality comes from actually experiencing the personality.
 

cheese

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This is really interesting. Ni is mad fun. I actually consciously observed its use the other day. I'm starting to get the hang of what it looks like.
Cobra is a fantastic description; I've seen this tons of times on various friends. The others are great as well.

Do INFJs have a tendency to see everyone as archetypes?

Also, with the persona presentation - do they do this consciously? The ones that try to sell a certain version of themselves the most seem to be ENFJs, in my experience. They spin you around in talk instead of actually showing you how they're like. (And often the words seem curiously mismatched with their deeds.)

*edit
One more question:
How do you tell an INFJ from an ESTP?
 

Anthile

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So you typed Ozymandias as INTJ then?
 

Tyria

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Thank you for posting this Adymus. It is an enjoyable and informative read.
 

ckm

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Thanks for posting this. I got a lot of laughs from it, especially the not-so-positive descriptions.

I think my dad's best friend may be one of these so-called "false gurus". I like him, but transcending the English-German language barrier carries the risk of being struck by his conspiracy theory shit (they're not theories to him, of course). I thought he was ISTP, but INFJ seems to fit better, especially considering he's such an "agenda pusher".

The Bjork/Cobra thing fits perfectly, but the way. I still love her though.
 

Mary

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Interesting.
These all sound kinda similar to me, 'cept for the really bad ones which OBVIOUSLY I have no connection to.
Obviously.
:p
 

cheese

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Wouldn't the Gypsy King and Cobra require controlled use of Se? How likely is this? I've also read Se being described the way you're talking about Ni: keeping tabs on the situation, being able to react to the slightest changes, being comfortable and in control with every variable, etc. Se reacts whereas Ni builds models, but how can you tell the difference from the outside if they both have similar effects (if you're not reading them)?
Could you give a brief description of the ESTP?

Sorry for all the questions, thanks for the answers.
 

Adymus

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Wouldn't the Gypsy King and Cobra require controlled use of Se? How likely is this? I've also read Se being described the way you're talking about Ni: keeping tabs on the situation, being able to react to the slightest changes, being comfortable and in control with every variable, etc. Se reacts whereas Ni builds models, but how can you tell the difference from the outside if they both have similar effects (if you're not reading them)?
Could you give a brief description of the ESTP?

Sorry for all the questions, thanks for the answers.
Yes, it does require good control over Se, but more than that, it requires the speculative abilities of Ni to interpret what the Se means in the wider lens. Being a Cobra requires that you have Ni over your Se, specifically your dominant function, that way you can already have your agenda set in your Ni, and then use Fe and Se to push your target closer to the goal.

ESTPs actually can be similar to the Gypsy King, since they are Se and Ni users as well, the difference is they are more concerned on experiencing as many details as possible, as opposed to the Ni dom's concern with speculating what these details actually mean in the big picture of this person's life, or seeing where all of this is going. The latter is far more important when being a Cobra or Con artist. The INFJ always has that agenda that they are trying to push toward (Being Js and all), and while Se is very important to act in the now and take in new information, it is only done to serve the Ni Agenda.

So an ESTP begins with experiencing with Se, and then slowly begins to get an Idea of where this is going with Ni. The INFJ begins with knowing where they want it to go, and moves to get there through Se.

It is all a matter of what function is the Slave and what function is the master.

EDIT: it is also not that they are taking in as much Se as the ESTP is, because they are taking in a little, and then Speculating on it with Ni, then taking in a little more, then going back to Ni.
 

ProxyAmenRa

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If you met a person would you be able to determine if they were INFJ or not?

---

After being subjected to a few INFJs in recent years I have developed an irrational dislike of the personality. The ones I know have engaged in actions in order to decrease my social capital. Their main motivations are beyond me. It could be because I have called bullshit on many of their ideals and motives. Inconsistencies in their behavior has lead me to believe that they are not who they are portraying themselves to be. It has turned into a game.

Diminishing social capital is a problem.
 

Dormouse

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but ultimately Light's goal was to create an Ideal world.
Isn't that everybody's goal?

That said, if types can develop their tertiary and auxiliary functions so well, doesn't it imply the order of their strengths are changeable? So there would be a huge difference between, say, INTP and ENTP. (They both have Ti-Ne-Si-Fe, right? I get this confused...) Same functions, different order. But then couldn't functions be developped to change the type?

Anyways, very interesting.
 

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Adymus, curious...Hitler's closest advisers claimed that Hitler was a 'Great actor' and that everything he did, the passionate speeches was just a show. He learned these oratorical skills from a hypnotist...now, what type of INFJ is he?
 

Words

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Adymus, your welcome to write one about the variations of INTP. I also see a general division within this type.
 

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So how do you clearly draw the line for someone that believes they are INTP and seems to fulfill the role of INTP though acting, yet may actually be INFJ?

I've had phases in my life that match INFJ closer to anything, even the use of Ni. For a few years I lived similarly to how eckhart tolle describes his vew, and felt compelled to teach everyone I could about meditation and how to see themselves from new perspectives. Often, after meditating, I tend to feel that way again... like I have the ultimate solution and I must show everyone the way.
Yet with a little time I kind of fall back closer to INTP, and prefer to just sit back and rethink it. Usually it's kind of disappointing because all of the motivation and enthusiasm diminishes as quickly as it started.
 

Adymus

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Isn't that everybody's goal?

That said, if types can develop their tertiary and auxiliary functions so well, doesn't it imply the order of their strengths are changeable? So there would be a huge difference between, say, INTP and ENTP. (They both have Ti-Ne-Si-Fe, right? I get this confused...) Same functions, different order. But then couldn't functions be developped to change the type?

Anyways, very interesting.
Simply put, no, it is not everyone's goal. Certainly not enough for people to actually do anything about it.

While the development of each cognitive function is changable, the order and hierarchy is never changeable. An INTP with well developed Fe will never be stimulated by Fe, no matter how good at using it they now, it will always be the most draining function to use. Similarly the Dominant function is always on top, that is always the function that we recognize our own identity in, and priorities more than any other function. So yes, there is actually huge different between ENTP and INTP because of that, despite the fact that the seem similar.

I was actually one of these children, my Si kicked in before my Ne did, and from having an ENFJ mom, my Ti took a lot of hits and my Fe got the majority of her validation.

For instance, an INTP might grow up in a household that is more validating to their Si than it is to their Ne, and they might end up developing Si more than they do Ne. But the reason that Didn't make the INTP a Ti Si Ne Fe is because that is not how we am wired. our Ne is above our Si, which means I am naturally going to be more stimulated by the abstract and not the concrete. But that INTP is more confident with their factual and historical knowledge of Si than their ability to See the patterns of Ne, so they might show more Si, but it is still always something draining for them, as opposed to Ne. Your cognitive function hierarchy is not necessarily decided by which of your functions are the strongest, but by where you get your energy. For an INTP, it will always be from Ti-Ne regardless of your culture and upbringing.

So when referring to functions that have developed outside of their intended order, I'd rather look at it like this:
Ti
Ne
Si
Fe

Instead of changing the order.
 

Adymus

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So how do you clearly draw the line for someone that believes they are INTP and seems to fulfill the role of INTP though acting, yet may actually be INFJ?

I've had phases in my life that match INFJ closer to anything, even the use of Ni. For a few years I lived similarly to how eckhart tolle describes his vew, and felt compelled to teach everyone I could about meditation and how to see themselves from new perspectives. Often, after meditating, I tend to feel that way again... like I have the ultimate solution and I must show everyone the way.
Yet with a little time I kind of fall back closer to INTP, and prefer to just sit back and rethink it. Usually it's kind of disappointing because all of the motivation and enthusiasm diminishes as quickly as it started.
Because no matter how good of an actor they are, they cannot escape how their brain is wired. Ti will always be something that feel more unnatural to them, and you will see drops in energy as they use it. Their strength and confidence will still be on their directive functions, and you will see it in their abilities to articulate structured thoughts and direct easier and more readily than the INTP. There is many more cues than this, but I don't want to go into full on reading people.

Your experience sounds like you are actually getting in touch with your unconscious Te and Ni through your meditation. It is not something we can readily use on command like we can our top four functions, but we often get insights from the unconscious functions in the way that you described. INxx types are actually more in touch with this than any other types. (Which is why my colleagues and I refer to this social grouping as "The Channelers."
 

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Because no matter how good of an actor they are, they cannot escape how their brain is wired. Ti will always be something that feel more unnatural to them, and you will see drops in energy as they use it. Their strength and confidence will still be on their directive functions, and you will see it in their abilities to articulate structured thoughts and direct easier and more readily than the INTP. There is many more cues than this, but I don't want to go into full on reading people.

Your experience sounds like you are actually getting in touch with your unconscious Te and Ni through your meditation. It is not something we can readily use on command like we can our top four functions, but we often get insights from the unconscious functions in the way that you described. INxx types are actually more in touch with this than any other types. (Which is why my colleagues and I refer to this social grouping as "The Channelers."
Ah see, I wondered about that. Often with meditation I require myself to use attitudes that I normally don't, such as empathy (Fi?) to avoid self-condemnation, truly detached perception to see myself thinking about thinking about thinking (Ni?) and so on. I didn't think there is really a way to bring these processes out of the unconscious though. Do you think it's just using the top functions, Ti and Ne, in such a way that requires more involvement from Te and Ni?
 

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I have tried hard for many years to work on my Fe, as it seems to be more socially acceptable. In that way I was more able to connect with people, make friends, perform better at work etc. I have had "revelations" through different types of meditation, etc, which has enabled me to encourage both my Fe and Ti (I think). This has been truly rewarding, but as Moocow said, after a while, I fall back into old patterns.

I do get quite exhausted by having to use my Fe, and it has never been something that came naturally to me. I have been more or less convinced that all the tests I have taken have been wrong, as I suspect I am more an INFP/J than INTP/J. I worked in the health industry for many years, and it drained me, having to relate and give to so many people all the time, which is partly why I got out of it.

I am now on a path to a career in science and research, which will be ideal as I will not have to deal with people as subjects. I am still not sure of my type, though.

Edit: I guess I'm asking for your opinion, Adymus.
 

Adymus

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Ah see, I wondered about that. Often with meditation I require myself to use attitudes that I normally don't, such as empathy (Fi?) to avoid self-condemnation, truly detached perception to see myself thinking about thinking about thinking (Ni?) and so on. I didn't think there is really a way to bring these processes out of the unconscious though. Do you think it's just using the top functions, Ti and Ne, in such a way that requires more involvement from Te and Ni?
Okay you are starting to confuse conscious functions with unconscious functions, I think.

The reason I say the unconscious functions only come in the form of insights, and not you consciously using these functions as you would your Ti-Ne-Si-Fe. What I mean by insights, I mean it is more of a stream of inspiration that you get from the unconscious, and not the conscious act of cogitation. You do not have control over these, so if you are actually making yourself focus on empathy, it is Fe, because you are consciously controlling how you use it.
 

Adymus

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I have tried hard for many years to work on my Fe, as it seems to be more socially acceptable. In that way I was more able to connect with people, make friends, perform better at work etc. I have had "revelations" through different types of meditation, etc, which has enabled me to encourage both my Fe and Ti (I think). This has been truly rewarding, but as Moocow said, after a while, I fall back into old patterns.

I do get quite exhausted by having to use my Fe, and it has never been something that came naturally to me. I have been more or less convinced that all the tests I have taken have been wrong, as I suspect I am more an INFP/J than INTP/J. I worked in the health industry for many years, and it drained me, having to relate and give to so many people all the time, which is partly why I got out of it.

I am now on a path to a career in science and research, which will be ideal as I will not have to deal with people as subjects. I am still not sure of my type, though.

Edit: I guess I'm asking for your opinion, Adymus.
Well, saying that you worked on your Fe, and that Fe drains you, contradicts the possibility of you being an INFP. They don't use Fe.

Furthermore, If you were an INFJ, having to relate to people would actually not be a very draining activity, because Fe is still pretty stimulating to them.

If on top of all of this, you are even stimulated by the sciences, I would say INTP seem to be most likely.
 

Adymus

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Adymus, your welcome to write one about the variations of INTP. I also see a general division within this type.
I was actually considering making it a four part series, for each INxx type.
 

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I was actually considering making it a four part series, for each INxx type.
YES. That brought a smile to my face.
 

Tyria

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I was actually considering making it a four part series, for each INxx type.
I would love to see that as well. The descriptions that you gave are both informative and pretty funny too.
 

Polaris

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Well, saying that you worked on your Fe, and that Fe drains you, contradicts the possibility of you being an INFP. They don't use Fe.

Furthermore, If you were an INFJ, having to relate to people would actually not be a very draining activity, because Fe is still pretty stimulating to them.

If on top of all of this, you are even stimulated by the sciences, I would say INTP seem to be most likely.

Thanks, Adymus

My other question is, if you are borderline P/J, is it possible that you could "switch" between the two, depending on mood?

Edit: An INXX series would be interesting indeed
 

Adymus

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Thanks, Adymus

My other question is, if you are borderline P/J, is it possible that you could "switch" between the two, depending on mood?

Edit: An INXX series would be interesting indeed
No.

You have to look at what cogitative functions make a each personality type, not the percentage they have on the test. You see we have both directive (J) and Adaptive (P) functions already in are higherarchy

Because of the fact that our adaptive functions (Ti and Ne) are first and stimulating for us to use, we are Ps. However that does not mean we are incapable of being directive, or J-like if you will, because we also have Si and Fe, both directive functions. So seeming kind of like a J, indicates that your lower functions are more developed than average, not that you are some kind of magical hybrid.
 

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Adymus. When I read your stuff (and some of it I've read a few times) you certainly write with confidence with what you're saying. I, on the other hand, nothing sinks in. Almost nothing. By now I have to label myself INTP (I asked you once) and think that a pretty good guess, but lack even confidence in that. So I'm asking myself the reason.

You were asked where YOU get your judgment ability and I believe your answer was from observation/experience. I'm going to guess in my case my Ti wants to capture logical confirmation and my Ne registers zero. I can't proceed with zero Ne. So my guess is I have an extremely underdeveloped Si. Does that not sound right?

When you gave examples of INFJ, the only one that registered for me was Martin Luther King. That was because I know none of the others. Do you have any more salient examples? If not, I guess I will have to start looking to my own experiences for match-ups.
______________________

From reading responses to you, most of your students claim to grasp what you are saying. They would all pass your course. I am the only one who would be sure to flunk!:( Brings me back to high school days.:D
 

Tyria

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Adymus, what if you are 50:50 on an axis (for example the P/J axis). Which would you be?
 

Words

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Well, that would mean your functions are abnormal.

First gauge which functions you most prefer. Te vs. Ti and Ni vs. Ne.

Though, perchance you'd be an XNTX. Perhaps there are people with "X's", I don't know.
 

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Okay quite frankly I see myself in the academic, method actor, revolutionary and cobra.... I have a hard time relating to INTP type, as I have through various phases thought I was an ENTP then an INTJ and now you are telling me I could be an INFJ who was acting. After reading the personalitypage profile of an INFJ it only raised more questions then less as I agreed very much with some of the stuff there. (The third paragraph basically :=/ .)
 

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That was a very nice post. I loved how there was little humorous bits scattered through it, like on the revolutionary bit. They helped me string along and read the whole thing without it getting tired and/or Über bored.

EVERYBODY LOVES LEARNING COG FUNCT AS WELL AS INFJ STUFFZ!!:) (well at least I do) (cog funct...that has a nice ring to it...right?)

*edit
I was actually considering making it a four part series, for each INxx type.
I just jizzed my pants
 

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This is interesting. I've found a few of these qualities in the one INFJs that I knew well.

Mostly I want to know what sort of "versions" you'll give INTPs...I will ponder this for a while.
 

Adymus

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Adymus, what if you are 50:50 on an axis (for example the P/J axis). Which would you be?
It could be anything, there are too many variable to make a reliable speculation off of that.
 

Tyria

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It could be anything, there are too many variable to make a reliable speculation off of that.
Let's use an example of an INXX that scores a 50:50 on the F/T axis and a 50:50 on the J/P axis. What would this person be considered?
 

Adymus

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Let's use an example of an INXX that scores a 50:50 on the F/T axis and a 50:50 on the J/P axis. What would this person be considered?
Tyria, I think you are missing the point I am trying to get across.

First of all, the test isn't even measuring your actual cognitive function use, it is measuring your own interpretation of a set of "symptoms" that are supposed to indicate cognitive function use. So ultimately what you score depends entirely on you knowing yourself very well, which people usually don't.

Actually, it not even cognitive function use, it is trying to guess at your top two functions by using simplified guessing method that narrows a personality down to 4 questions:

Where do you get your energy: inside or outside?
What kind of information are you drawn toward: Pattern based or literal?
How do you usually make sense of that information: Based on Values or logic?
Do you live a directive or adaptive lifestyle?

Now considering the fact that we have the potential to fit all of these: We all have a way to Introvert as well as extrovert, Take in literal or pattern based information, make both values based and logic based decisions, and adapt as well as direct.

There is no guarantee that everyone is going to know which one of these is prefered. Especially if you don't have certain function well develed, or have less preferred ones better developed.
For instance, if you are an Academic ENFP who has developed your Te, there is a good chance you are going to answer many questions in favor of T. It make sense that you would, because you worked hard to develop that side of yourself, and you now consider it a strong part of your identity. But the question is not whether you are capable of using all of your cognitive function, because we are indeed capable of using all of our functions, but which ones to do prefer: as in, which ones are you stimulated by.

So a question like what does a 50:50 on J/P mean has no reliable answer, it could be a number of things. It certainly does not necessarily mean that the person has well developed directive as well as adaptive function, it just means the person thinks they do. But you still can't know which is preferred based off of percentages alone.
 

Words

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I need a little inspiration, so any brainstorms for Sub-types of the other "Faces of" installments would be appreciated.
Do you think Enneagram could help? 5w6 vs. 5w4?
 

BigApplePi

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How to tell what type one is:

Where do you get your energy: inside or outside? (I or E)
What kind of information are you drawn toward: pattern based or literal? (N or S)
How do you usually make sense of that information: based on values or logic? (F or T)
Do you live a adaptive or directive lifestyle? (J or P)

Now considering the fact that we have the potential to fit all of these:

We all have a way to introvert as well as extrovert,
Take in pattern based or literal information,
Make both values based and logic based decisions,
Adapt as well as direct.
 
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BigApplePi

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I need a little inspiration, so any brainstorms for Sub-types of the other "Faces of" installments would be appreciated.
Here are two but I lifted them from your Adymus 16 types, 16 smiles: The way...

Russell Crowe (INFJ) - Method actor (don't know where else to put him)?
Nicole Kidman (INFJ) -
Cobra (one role she played)?

& this thread:
Robert Downey Jr as Krik Lazarus http://www.anomalousmaterial.com/movies/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/tropic_thunder_RDJ.jpg - Method Actor

Magicians - are they themselves INFJ's (do we count acting?) or is INFJ our introjected illusion? - Gypsy King?
 

GarmGarf

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I need a little inspiration, so any brainstorms for Sub-types of the other "Faces of" installments would be appreciated.
I don't think it's very serious and you've probably come across it before, but there is this for the INTP instalment.


Anyways, one way you could go about this is in a systematic fashion, e.g, have a: standard model subtype; subtype with well developed tertiary; subtype with well developed inferior; subtype with well developed tertiary and underdeveloped auxiliary; subtype with well developed auxiliary and inferior and underdeveloped tertiary; etc (with all "well developed" and "underdeveloped" magnitudes being relative to the absolute magnitudes of the functions of the standard model of that MBTI (e.g: a "well developed" Fe of an INTP wouldn't be as high as a "normal" Fe of an INFJ, and maybe still not as high as an "underdeveloped" Fe of an INFJ (maybe it would have to be "super developed" to beat an INFJ's Fe)).

This system might produce little to say on some subtypes, a lot on others, you might think of subtypes which reflect none of these systematic combinations, and multiple for the same combination, and the article probably wouldn't match the style of the INFJ article, but meh.
 

GarmGarf

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I need a little inspiration, so any brainstorms for Sub-types of the other "Faces of" installments would be appreciated.
I don't think it's very serious and you've probably come across it before, but there is this for the INTP instalment.


Anyways, one way you could go about this is in a systematic fashion, e.g, have a: standard model subtype; subtype with well developed tertiary; subtype with well developed inferior; subtype with well developed tertiary and underdeveloped auxiliary; subtype with well developed auxiliary and inferior and underdeveloped tertiary; etc (with all "well developed" and "underdeveloped" magnitudes being relative to the absolute magnitudes of the functions of the standard model of that MBTI (e.g: a "well developed" Fe of an INTP wouldn't be as high as a "normal" Fe of an INFJ, and maybe still not as high as an "underdeveloped" Fe of an INFJ (maybe it would have to be "super developed" to beat an INFJ's Fe)).

This system might produce little to say on some subtypes, a lot on others, you might think of subtypes which reflect none of these systematic combinations, and multiple for the same combination, and the article probably wouldn't match the style of the INFJ article, but meh.
 

BigApplePi

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Anyways, one way you could go about this is in a systematic fashion, e.g, have a: standard model subtype; subtype with well developed tertiary; subtype with well developed inferior; subtype with well developed tertiary and underdeveloped auxiliary; subtype with well developed auxiliary and inferior and underdeveloped tertiary; etc (with all "well developed" and "underdeveloped" magnitudes being relative to the absolute magnitudes of the functions of the standard model of that MBTI (e.g: a "well developed" Fe of an INTP wouldn't be as high as a "normal" Fe of an INFJ, and maybe still not as high as an "underdeveloped" Fe of an INFJ (maybe it would have to be "super developed" to beat an INFJ's Fe)).

This system might produce little to say on some subtypes, a lot on others, you might think of subtypes which reflect none of these systematic combinations, and multiple for the same combination.
Holy macro GarmGarf. If we wanted to be really systematic, we could seek an Overdeveloped, Standard, and Underdeveloped for each of the Dominant, Auxiliary, Tertiary, and Inferior functions. That would be 3x3x3x3. If we did that for each of the 16 temperaments, that would be 16x81=1,296. That is too many to have a party. What about a ballroom? We'd need space for show-offs and wall flowers. Everyone would gravitate to their natural position so we'd have to mix it up somehow. Changing dance partners would be signaled every so often. That's 1,296x1,295/2=839,160 combos. Less depending on sexual orientation.

Someone check my math.
 

GarmGarf

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Eh well firstly it's just the 4 INxx types.

Secondly I think Adymus will state that the dominate is pretty much always bound to be standard, for it can never be underdeveloped, because it would have been used too much (source of mental energy). Now maybe it can be overdeveloped, e.g: in people who immaturely use all their other functions (mostly auxiliary) just to feed the dominate, but I think Adymus has the stance that the undeveloped functions, if left undeveloped, will weigh one down and not let the dominate get to the peak (maybe it can thus only be overdeveloped if the individual "masters" everything? But that would bear only one subtype for such anyway).

And thirdly, a lot of combinations would be very similar (e.g: underdeveloped inferior; underdeveloped tertiary; underdeveloped tertiary and inferior) and multiple could just be grouped into a single subtype.
 

Adymus

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Do you think Enneagram could help? 5w6 vs. 5w4?
No, The Enneagram is a completely different system. It's completely useless, it tells you far less than cognitive functions do.
 

BigApplePi

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Eh well firstly it's just the 4 INxx types.

Secondly I think Adymus will state that the dominate is pretty much always bound to be standard, for it can never be underdeveloped, because it would have been used too much (source of mental energy). Now maybe it can be overdeveloped, e.g: in people who immaturely use all their other functions (mostly auxiliary) just to feed the dominate, but I think Adymus has the stance that the undeveloped functions, if left undeveloped, will weigh one down and not let the dominate get to the peak (maybe it can thus only be overdeveloped if the individual "masters" everything? But that would bear only one subtype for such anyway).

And thirdly, a lot of combinations would be very similar (e.g: underdeveloped inferior; underdeveloped tertiary; underdeveloped tertiary and inferior) and multiple could just be grouped into a single subtype.
I would agree underdeveloped sub-functions can weigh down the primary function. The primary function needs support.
I don't agree the primary function can be underdeveloped. Take two alike temperaments, one ten years old, the other forty. The forty year old will have the stronger primary due to experience.
 
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