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The Problem with Progressives

Cognisant

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I think every social movement has two sides:
  1. The people who actually want to implement positive change
  2. The ass-hats who want something "positive" to identify with
Consider straight people attempting to join a gay pride parade with a straight pride flag, now blatant acts of satire/subversion aside there's two ways this can be interpreted. To someone whose involvement in the gay pride movement is to bring about real positive social change this is an unequivocal victory, these are allies to the cause, this is how non-exclusively hetero-normative culture not only gains the acceptance of the mainstream but rather BECOMES the mainstream. But for someone who just wants something to identify with this is terrible, this is the apocalypse, a gay pride parade that doesn't exclude straight people isn't a gay pride parade anymore it's just a parade, as every popular counter-culture ever has discovered once it goes mainstream it's not counter-culture anymore, it's just regular culture. It's not cool.

Now I don't mean to pick on LGBT+ if anything they're a shining example of a progressive movement that's gotten wise to such parasitic behavior and gone out of their way to be actually inclusive, which is why the movement has been so successful, these days in most civilized parts of the world (read: least religious) the mainstream consensus is that LGBT+ people are just people, it's neither particularly special nor interesting and anyone who pays particular attention to them just makes themselves look weird.

"That guy's a faggot!"
"Uh yeah we know... are you planning to ask him out?"
____________________________________________________________________________________

Now the most egregious case of this applies to gender politics and there's ass-hats on both sides, indeed the whole thing shouldn't be a matter of sides instead it should just be a matter of identifying and resolving toxic behaviors, unfortunately each side feeds off the toxicity of the other.

On one hand there's a real problem with women being second guessed as if they're ruled by their emotions and they can't think straight, a common complaint of rape victims is that when they report being raped the first question everyone asks is "are you sure you were raped?" That's more than a little fucked up. On the other hand there are women who play to this trope, who say shit like "if you can't handle me at my worst you don't deserve me at my best" or who use their period as an excuse to act out and abuse their partners.

We can have a whole flame war about who's worse or who has it worse but really does it matter?
For the sake of argument lets say men are 10x worse, the conventional wisdom is just blame men and such generalizing can be useful if it's true, if all men are prone to abusive/rapist behavior then we must tailor our laws/culture/institutions accordingly.

The problem is that this is something of a self fulfilling prophecy, if it's the accepted truth that all men are rapists then that normalizes the behavior, not completely of course but if a man were to come across a woman being attacked he might not feel obliged to intervene. Why? Because if it's the accepted truth that all men are potential rapists and here she is in vulnerable circumstances, perhaps clothed in a way that could be interpreted as provocative, she should know better indeed maybe she does, maybe she provoked him, maybe they know each other, he best not intervene, at worst it's her own fault she really ought to have known better.

Conversely if the accepted truth is that rapists are incredibly rare and the absolute scum of the Earth the witness will be at first frozen in disbelief and once he comprehends what's happening is actually happening he'll spring into action. Why? Because this is far outside and exceptional circumstances demand an exceptional response, he wouldn't normally attack another man but this is a rapist, this is the absolute scum of the Earth, if he didn't attack this man he'd be wracked with guilt to have been complicit by inaction to such wrongdoing.

Likewise men who go around making negative generalizations of women being emotional/irrational are both undermining society's ability to take women seriously which in turn undermines women's confidence in society, it also serves to justify the previously mentioned toxic behaviors which lead to female on male physical/mental/emotional abuse.

Basically what goes around comes around and in a war between genders nobody wins, instead we need to put aside our gender identities and look at the problem holistically, instead of pointing fingers and assigning blame maybe we should consider what a healthier society would look like? Again it's a self fulfilling prophecy thing, if you can show people what the ideal of the new man/woman looks like they can try to emulate it, people learn faster when you show them how to do something right rather than just scold them for doing it wrong.
 

higs

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I think that perhaps the most interesting point that has been made by feminists most recently is not the "all men are rapists/sexual assaulter" meme, which is the usual internet flame war thing of caricaturing the opposing side and not addressing the strongest arguments in play. I think you're just attacking a caricature of feminists and you haven't really engaged with the ideas properly. I used to engage with large amounts of feminist literature and groups, and "all men are rapists" was not something I saw expressed. So it's definitely not mainstream if there are examples of it.

The most forceful and more relevant point made, to me, is that rape is actually not that rare. I agree that it's common morality that rape is bad, and everyone has this image in their head of dark alley, a stranger and extreme physical violence. What seems to be the case in fact is that quite a lot of rape is simply not considered rape by the perpetrators. Brock Turner was a famous example, his reaction was to say "I'm not a monster, I thought it was okay", and I actually believe him. In his mind it's not a big deal to do all this stuff to a girl passed out. When I was at school there were several stories of abuse of this kind at parties, I can think of at least three, that I was made aware of, and the school was not that large. And really, honestly, quite a few of the female friends I have with whom I have been sufficiently close for them to tell me such things, have some experiences where their vocal non consent was bypassed completely/ ignored. This experience was usually within adolescence, before they were perhaps made aware of consent models. A lot of them are fine, it's just a disagreeable thing that happened and they don't really think about it that much, one or two suffer from it fairly regularly for one reason or another. Regardless of their reaction, I think this counts as rape. I think the guys who did it were not monsters, I think they were normal young guys who thought their behavior was fine and normal. I don't think anyone told them it wasn't. I think if they had thought "this is rape" to themselves, they would not have engaged in these patterns. I know some Brock Turners, most of them are not prosecuted, I think some of them may now realize that their behavior was not acceptable, because of the discussion at large that has happened.

Anyway, I think that the answer is to include discussions on consent in sex ed. I think that the fact that feminists have been very vocal about all this may change things for the better. Sometimes you just need to complain a lot until things change.

This is what I think anyway.
 

Cognisant

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The “all men are rapists” thing is fairly common on social media, most notably Facebook and Youtube/Imgur comments which admittedly aren’t places known for robust intellectual discourse, and it’s probably more notable to me since it’s my gender identity that’s being attacked. Because it’s more notable to me there’s probably some degree of confirmation bias at play, if I see such commentary three times in one day I’m likely to think it’s a lot more common than it might actually be. Which just goes to show how incredibly damaging such commentary can be, I’m a fairly well adjusted 30yr old not an insecure hormonal teenager, the last thing we want to do is normalize such negative stereotypes around the young stupid and easily influenced.

Speaking of young and stupid I think there will always need to be special consideration taken for young adults, giving them a proper education in what not to do is absolutely a step in the right direction but I don’t think there will ever be a time when a teenage girl can be left alone and unconscious with a teenage boy. Which is not to say “boys will be boys”, certainly clear expectations and harsh penalties need to be set and enforced but I think a certain degree of responsibility needs to be taken by the girls as well, if I fell asleep at a young adult party and I woke up with stuff stacked on me and dicks drawn on my face I wouldn’t be surprised. Likewise although women absolutely shouldn’t live in fear of men a teenage girl going to a party and drinking herself unconscious is putting herself in an incredibly vulnerable position, I don’t go out and get blackout drunk because I know I’ll wake up in a gutter stinking of piss (which I can only hope is mine) and missing my phone/wallet, heck I could even be raped.

As for young adults “bypassing consent” again that’s absolutely an issue that needs to be solved with education and again that education needs to be for both genders. “No means no” is a fairly simple premise, I think almost all guys get that and wouldn’t continue if their partner was in obvious distress, I think where they’re willing to push the boundaries is when their partner is saying no but showing obvious signs of arousal. This idea that “you can’t rape the willing” comes up a lot in cases of female-on-male rape where the man/boy having an erection is interpreted as an implicit willingness to participate and/or that “it isn’t rape if they enjoy it”. It doesn’t help that in movies like Skyfall there’s a scene where Bond practically rapes a former child prostitute on a yacht but supposedly it’s okay because she’s into it. Consent education needs to go beyond “no means no” and teach boys that arousal isn’t consent either and that goes both ways, girls need to learn that teasing and “leading on” can be a form of unintentional abuse. I imagine these “bypassing consent” situations occur most when the participants are already engaged in making out or heavy petting, a girl might be content to engage in such behaviour and go no further but (and correct me if I’m wrong) I don’t think women get “blue balled” like men do.
 

Hadoblado

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I take issue with your initial gay parade example.

If it's a gay parade and someone flies a straight pride flag, are they trying to be included or are they protesting gay pride?

If it's a BLM protest and someone yells "all lives matter", are they speaking on behalf of the 'all' who they feel also need protection, or are they diluting/correcting the signal of BLM because they don't like that message?

I see a lot of worlds where people are being cunts with a straight pride flag and while I'm sure there are plenty of examples of people over-reacting, this seems fairly predictable and doesn't have to be anything to do with signaling wokeness. Sometimes you're just a minority that has been treated harshly and you become more sensitive and reactive to possible opposition to your very existence.

Also I don't think it's either/or. It's probably not people just wanting to identify with something, they may genuinely believe in their cause but don't know how to properly advocate for it. It's not like you take an IQ test before you can be gay/black/whatever. Also with minority groups you're probably talking disproportionate trauma due to how they're treated. Hard to keep a cool head when you're upregulated.

---
Re: Gender
I'm an armchair gender abolitionist. I think gender shouldn't really be a thing and we should just get rid of it and let everyone gay it up a bunch. But I don't like this colourblind approach. Sex differences exist at a biological and social level. I don't prescribe them, but they exist whether I like them or not. In my view, we should meet people where they are and take them to where they need to be. This means, for instance, acknowledging that men are over-represented in sexual-assault related crimes, and trying to figure out how we can adjust that.

I kind of agree with you on the rape stuff but honestly not sure because there're often times when you write things where you've explained yourself fairly clearly but later on additional context makes me reevaluate. I'm getting a feeling this might be one of those times.

I agree additional education could be good, but it's complicated and I'm not exactly sure they don't teach this stuff? I agree with Higs rape statistics are terrifying when compared to my initial expectations.

---
I think with the burden of blame/change stuff, I think that it could be said that in a deterministic sense, we could say that women could probably burka up to reduce the chance of their individual rape. But in terms of who should be required to change their behaviour? Men. Where are proper environmental changes most likely to make a difference? Men.

Unless we implement some sort of burka law, is there any promise that the "getting raped burden" is not just going to keep getting passed to whoever is the most sluttily dressed? Sex preferences are adaptive at an individual and cultural level, so this might not even work? I'm unaware of Islam having particularly progressive rape statistics. Putting the burden on women does not reduce the number of armed rape missiles racing around. It's like if America started demanding everyone wear bulletproof vests to fix their gun issue.
 

Cognisant

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If it's a gay parade and someone flies a straight pride flag, are they trying to be included or are they protesting gay pride?
In my experience people don't fly flags for the purpose of sending an ambiguous message so if they're being satirical they'll be openly/obviously satirical and blatant acts of satire/subversion are just that.

Also I don't think it's either/or. It's probably not people just wanting to identify with something, they may genuinely believe in their cause but don't know how to properly advocate for it.
True, not really the point I was driving at though.
The whole gay pride example was just to lay the groundwork for a constructive discussion about gender conflict, to deny people the opportunity to split into two sides, filling in the metaphorical trenches with concrete so we're all on a nice even playing field.

I kind of agree with you on the rape stuff but honestly not sure because there're often times when you write things where you've explained yourself fairly clearly but later on additional context makes me reevaluate. I'm getting a feeling this might be one of those times.
Maybe, truth be told the concrete is for myself as well, I'm not unbiased.

I agree additional education could be good, but it's complicated and I'm not exactly sure they don't teach this stuff? I agree with Higs rape statistics are terrifying when compared to my initial expectations.
Indeed rape as in "bypassing consent" wasn't something I'd really considered and with that now in mind I can see how rape incidents are a lot more common than what I had previously thought possible.

I think with the burden of blame/change stuff, I think that it could be said that in a deterministic sense, we could say that women could probably burka up to reduce the chance of their individual rape. But in terms of who should be required to change their behaviour? Men. Where are proper environmental changes most likely to make a difference? Men.
Education is certainly a step in the right direction however that education should be defining the limits of what is and isn't acceptable (arousal is not consent) and showing boys positive role models. Not confronting a class of boys (many of whom have never had sex before and are insecure about when they will) with rape statistics and drumming into them that men are awful, rape is depressingly common and they just need to stop it.

I mean we already tell men not to rape, there's laws against it and people who are charged with rape don't just do their time they wear that stigma for the rest of their lives because in our society rape isn't just a crime like robbing a convenience store or stealing a car it's one of those unforgivable crimes. Not that I'm advocating for leniency towards rapists, I'm just saying that the "just don't do it" message is already out there and saying it LOUDER might not totally useless but there's got to be a point of diminishing returns. Indeed pushing such a message too hard could even have a snap back effect of normalizing rape as I've already explained in a prior post.

Unless we implement some sort of burka law, is there any promise that the "getting raped burden" is not just going to keep getting passed to whoever is the most sluttily dressed? Sex preferences are adaptive at an individual and cultural level, so this might not even work? I'm unaware of Islam having particularly progressive rape statistics. Putting the burden on women does not reduce the number of armed rape missiles racing around. It's like if America started demanding everyone wear bulletproof vests to fix their gun issue.
Who advocated for burkas? Not me.
I do think women and men should be educated, a woman getting assaulted and raped in the street is clearly a problem that revolves around the perpetrator and as you pointed out taking measures to prevent it (telling women not to go out alone at night) will only shift the burden, if a rapist is willing to attack women on the street then he's willing to do it anywhere and that means nowhere is safe.

However in the case of a teenage girl passing out at a winding down party and left alone with a teenage boy, I think there's a reasonable amount of precaution that needs to be taken in particular with stupid hormone addled teenagers. I'm not saying teenage girls should all wear chastity belts if they intend to go out partying but they do need to be educated and they need to understand that SOME!!!! (massive massive emphasis on "SOME") of the onus is on them to not put themselves at risk.

I wouldn't expect a teenage girl to know what "blue balled" is, nor would I be surprised if she did but still it's not something one should reasonably expect every teenage girl to know if it's not something they're being educated about. And they should be educated about it because they need to understand if they make out with a teenage boy for a while he's going to start wanting more, that is just the male nature, it certainly doesn't justify "bypassing consent" but if all parties understood how to avoid circumstances where that can occur then I reason it will occur less often.
 

Rook

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herd mentality. we are all very advanced animals. imho every human has its own distinct ideology. that is why i am wary of things such as mbti and political theory. thousands of years we have warred. war never changes, no, it is only the emblems upon the banners and the chants upon the tongues that ever alter in this majestically endless universe of ours.



:clown::chicken::goat::handcuffs::kiss::hypnotized::pill::pill::pill::sigarette::skeleton::thunder::turtle::thunder::watermelon::thunder::vampire::hoplite_sword::hoplite_sword::hoplite_spear::hoplite_3::hoplite_3::hoplite_1::hoplite_1:

potter.jpg
 

higs

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Speaking of young and stupid I think there will always need to be special consideration taken for young adults, giving them a proper education in what not to do is absolutely a step in the right direction but I don’t think there will ever be a time when a teenage girl can be left alone and unconscious with a teenage boy. Which is not to say “boys will be boys”, certainly clear expectations and harsh penalties need to be set and enforced but I think a certain degree of responsibility needs to be taken by the girls as well, if I fell asleep at a young adult party and I woke up with stuff stacked on me and dicks drawn on my face I wouldn’t be surprised. Likewise although women absolutely shouldn’t live in fear of men a teenage girl going to a party and drinking herself unconscious is putting herself in an incredibly vulnerable position, I don’t go out and get blackout drunk because I know I’ll wake up in a gutter stinking of piss (which I can only hope is mine) and missing my phone/wallet, heck I could even be raped.

Well, you could probably guess what I was going to say:

I disagree with shifting the onus onto the girls, both morally and practically. Scenario : gather all teenage girls into a separate room during sex ed and tell them "look, if you wear a skirt, and maybe flirt a bit too much, or make the mistake of drinking too much, there's a very real possibility one of the guys in the other room will rape you" ?

There are 2 problems with this.
1) there is no clearly definable boundary. What is "being careful"? Wearing jeans ? Not touching ? Not kissing ? Not drinking ? Not going out ? Covering your face ? What is the actual behavior that will ensure not provoking?
2) None of the above behaviors above are morally wrong anyway.

Rape on the other hand is a clearly identifiable and morally repugnant behavior. Therefore, this is the behavior that can and should be addressed.

So you see I would be curious to hear about how you would practically communicate these boundaries that girls and women should take responsibility for, and what justification you would give. I mean, a lot of it we internalize anyway, you tend to get negative and aggressive attention from strangers when you are young and dress feminine. The cases I am talking about happen in more intimate contexts, with peers, when your guard is down. In short, when you assumed that you were safe.

It seems to me that on the one hand, you are intent on saying (quite rightly) that men are not inherently rapists, contrary to some inflammatory discourse that you have seen, yet on the other hand, you are still shifting the focus onto telling women specifically to be responsible and fear men and not experiment in the same way that their male peers do, because the consequences for them are potentially much worse.

I think a cultural shift in attitudes and education on consent could go an extremely long way in stopping them from getting raped, whether they are black out drunk or not. Waking up with dicks drawn on your face and things stacked on you is a harmless joke, I don't think it's a reasonable comparison at all. Waking up with people having inserted things into your ass repeatedly for personal pleasure would make you feel quite different I think. Also the gutter example is something else, I'm talking about teenagers experimenting with alcohol inside with their peers and friends, which I think is normal behavior to be honest, (though I may be degenerate.)

From my personal observations, it's just painfully obvious to me that as teenagers NONE of us were made aware of any of this stuff, male or female. There is an urgent need for this stuff to be communicated to young humans who are going to be sexually experimenting and don't have a clear idea of boundaries. I am convinced that if someone had just told us about this, several bad and sometimes traumatic experiences would have been stopped.
 

Cognisant

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From my personal observations, it's just painfully obvious to me that as teenagers NONE of us were made aware of any of this stuff, male or female. There is an urgent need for this stuff to be communicated to young humans who are going to be sexually experimenting and don't have a clear idea of boundaries. I am convinced that if someone had just told us about this, several bad and sometimes traumatic experiences would have been stopped.
Which is precisely the point I'm making that NONE of us were adequately prepared for it and that ALL of us should be.

I disagree with shifting the onus onto the girls, both morally and practically. Scenario : gather all teenage girls into a separate room during sex ed and tell them "look, if you wear a skirt, and maybe flirt a bit too much, or make the mistake of drinking too much, there's a very real possibility one of the guys in the other room will rape you" ?
(long pained sigh)
Ok I think we're taking past each other, when I say that women should take on some of the onus for protecting themselves I'm not saying that they don't already do that, I'm sorry I thought that went without saying I'll admit that's my poor communication, nor am I saying they that in general they need to take on more of the onus.

Fuck how do I explain this... ok so I'm a determinist, I think that before an event can occur it must be preceded by events that give cause to its occurrence, y'know you have to go swimming before a shark can eat you which is not to say being eaten by a shark is your fault, the shark had to decide to eat you the eating of you cannot happen without the shark's intentional participation, right?
So there's absolutely no room for discussion about whose fault it is.

But if we want to prevent shark attacks it's a numbers game and there are things you can do which will vary the odds for or against you and you know what these things are because you have a rough understanding of how a shark attack occurs. Now until you brought it to my attention I did not have an understanding of rape occurring in the way you described, it was a surprise to me, in retrospect it makes sense and I'm able to reason about how it occurs and what the contributing factors are but fundamentally it's just conjecture, I still don't actually know.

If I plan to go diving on a reef I could take precautions based on my intuition or I could consult various sources which will inform me of what actions will actually improve my odds of not being attacked, I might think a black wet-suit makes me look intimidating when in actual fact a shark would see bright blue and yellow and think I'm poisonous, that's something I didn't know and couldn't be expected to know because I'm not an educated marine biologist.

Young women may take measures to reduces their chances of being raped but do they actually know what is or isn't going to reduce that likelihood, do they actually understand what they're dealing with? I think teenage boys/girls, and young adults and even adults to a lesser extent don't really understand each other, for a guy at a part having sex might be nothing personal and might be personally offended when nobody wants to "have fun" with him. Likewise a girl might want to make out and that's all she wants to do but if the mentioned guy is making out with her he's going to get the wrong impression and how do we fix this, how do we prevent these misunderstandings from occurring? Education.

Of course that education goes both ways.

Your questions are worth exploring and I will but I'm tired and I need to go to bed, but do you see what I'm getting at? Of course a misunderstanding isn't a rape but again a rape doesn't just happen it's an event that has other events that build up to it and the better educated both genders are the better equipped they'll be to derail that series of events before it ends up at rape station.
 

Puffy

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My problem, as a male, using the shark analogy is that I see it as degrading to men. It's like saying "as a collective we can't control our urges, so please do what you can to not arouse us and protect yourself from us."

Where if someone is engaging in destructive behaviour the onus is on them to transform it and on their community to raise & support them in such a way that they can find more life-affirming outlets for that energy. I agree that if you know you're about to walk into a room of predators that you should take precautions as a matter of protection. But that is in essence asking women to do more -- to take more responsibility -- to avoid a problem that stems from unhealthy expressions of masculine sexuality. I see that as an anti-male stance, as it presents men as lacking in dignity & integrity, incapable of developing themselves. It's close enough to "men are rapists."

So it is men really that have to do more -- be responsible for themselves -- to resolve the problem, and in order for them to have dignity & integrity. I would argue even to the degree that a female can be as outrageously flirtatious as she wants and still feel safe in his presence. Even to the degree she can taunt and aggravate him repeatedly and he won't hit her.

It's always possible I'm projecting what my integrity says onto others. But I honestly see that as something that drives growth in masculine psychology and should be encouraged.
 

Cognisant

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My problem, as a male, using the shark analogy is that I see it as degrading to men. It's like saying "as a collective we can't control our urges, so please do what you can to not arouse us and protect yourself from us."
Oh fuck off, you take issue not with the point I make but with the way I word it and how you choose to misconstrue it, that is pedantry and sophistry.
 

Hadoblado

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So defensive...

I think Puffy's concern legitimate and he raised it respectfully.

Your analogy has men as sharks, but sharks cannot exist without predatory behaviour. Men can, so the analogy isn't a good fit for extrapolating to what extent this issue is addressed by men changing their behaviour compared to how much women should.

Is that really so offensive? I understand you fish for drama and conflict at times but doesn't this seem a bit much?
 

Cognisant

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Sharks also have two dicks and do you know what that has to do with the price of potatoes? Nothing!

At no point did I say men are sharks or that they're like sharks and earlier in this thread I went on this LONG TIRADE about how blaming the occurrence of rape on men in general is actually really harmful and so do you think after doing that I would go and do that exact fucking thing?

Look I understand we're all a bit high on the autism spectrum so I don't expect people to read between the lines but I do expect them to take things in context so I don't end up going in circles creating an ever increasingly long thread for the benefit of the people who didn't bother doing the requisite reading.

What's worse is that if I don't decisively plug this bullshit spewing hole the whole discussion becomes morally polarized and then it's all pitchforks and torches and I've got to deal with an angry mob that thinks I'm saying something that I'm not.
 

Animekitty

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Telling a woman in a Muslim country not to wear a burka is dangerous. It does not matter about secular values or not. She is in a rape culture. And that is the problem many women see even in secular countries. And I am not just talking about SJW's. Every woman has felt scared before at least once. Now, this is not men's fault. Men are rapists is a horrible phrase. It is not true. But we are secular, we are used to flamboyant signs of sexuality. It is not tabu to be sexed up and that relieves tension. Sexual tension is the main cause of rape because men know rape is wrong, rape is mostly a hate crime.

If women are not available men get sexually frustrated. Now this is no excuse but explains a lot just as women are in danger in Muslim cultures not wearing a burka, women are more in danger in presence of horny men. It is just a fact of sexual nature. In a secular society, sex is more readily available. And men have learned to control themselves. But in third world countries rape is the norm. A result of poverty.

People follow their sexual urges given the chance. If it is pent up the will to control reaches diminishing returns. That is why young immature people do it more often and people that commit hate crimes. Young people thing natural urges are ok to do what they want. And hate crimes just enjoy violence. This really in fact is about the Freudian sexual instinct. Self-control is a minor part of it but important.
 

higs

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I have read and understood what you are saying, but it isn't clear. It boils down to "women need to be careful as well, like when divers go swimming where there are sharks ", but we still don't know how they should be careful, what is it practically, that they should be instructed to do/not do in order to reduce the chances of getting raped ?
 

Cognisant

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1) there is no clearly definable boundary. What is "being careful"? Wearing jeans ? Not touching ? Not kissing ? Not drinking ? Not going out ? Covering your face ? What is the actual behavior that will ensure not provoking?
2) None of the above behaviors above are morally wrong anyway.
No specific rule really works it's more about understanding how rape happens, the factors involved, what's a prerequisite and what makes it more likely and BOTH genders need to have this understanding so that say if a couple of guys ask a lone woman back to their hotel room she knows this is potentially dangerous, they know this is potentially dangerous and she knows that they know this is dangerous and so if she says "oh I don't feel comfortable doing that" and they continue saying stuff like "don't worry it'll be be fine" that's an IMMEDIATE RED FLAG because she knows they know better.
 

Cognisant

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Even if a guy makes plans for the evening and those plans don't involve being a rapist (I'll get to that) they should know that getting drunk or high or emotional or horny or sleep deprived are all factors that are going to impair their judgment. And a woman should understand that if a guy is drunk and she's alone with him or she's drunk then making out with him is progressing further down that path and as these factors accumulate the risks increase and if everyone understands those factors she should be able to gracefully remove herself from the situation and he should understand why should might feel the need to remove herself from the situation.

As for assault-rape I think the assault is the main thing to understand and prevent, as I said earlier stopping women from going out at night isn't going to solve the assault-rape issue it means they just look for their targets elsewhere. The thing is though I don't really understand how that happens, I can see how someone might conflate arousal with consent and force the issue but outright attacking someone there doesn't seem to be any way to get confused about that.

...I don't generally advocate this because it doesn't work (in the short term) but in the case of violent rapists maybe we should just shoot them, I don't think it'll actually stop people from attempting violent rape I mean if they're already willing to risk the existing consequences I don't see how upping the ante is going to make that much of a difference but given enough time human genetics will adapt to this new selective pressure.
 

Animekitty

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Recognizing impaired judgment is a practical skill both men and women should learn.
 

Puffy

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My problem, as a male, using the shark analogy is that I see it as degrading to men. It's like saying "as a collective we can't control our urges, so please do what you can to not arouse us and protect yourself from us."
Oh fuck off, you take issue not with the point I make but with the way I word it and how you choose to misconstrue it, that is pedantry and sophistry.

I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying as a personal attack, where it isn't. I rarely get involved in personal attacks online or offline, it's not my style. My post was largely picking apart the issues I see when this subject gets framed around what females can do to prevent rape from occurring, which as far as I can see is on topic.
 

washti

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Concerning sexeducation:

What specific steps would recomend well adjusted adult man to young boy dealing with the blue balls issue?

How about dealing with emotion after withdrawn consent for more after petting? What you would say if young guy will express feeling of entitlement for pleassure? How to make actionable change in attitude?

How would you design program for boys sexeduacation which content and delivery won't immediately put them in predator position and shaming them for it?

How you would portray a woman to them? How would you talk about distribution of responsibility concerning reproductive issues?
How would you present history of it? How would you portray feminist movements?
Should thees topics be in scope of sex edu program?Whats should be the topics scope?

Who should be a lecteruer? What will disqualify someone?

How would you meassure program's effectivity? Checking up how many students become parents before age 18/21?
No police records? What else/instead?

Do you know existing good programs? What are the most valuable elements?
 

Cognisant

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washti said:
Concerning sexeducation:
What specific steps would recomend well adjusted adult man to young boy dealing with the blue balls issue?
It’s a lot like how people stick with abusive partners, from the outside it looks so stupid but when you’re in that situation your brain chemistry is working against you because your biology (both male and female) prioritizes reproduction above your own wellbeing, unless there’s an immediate life or death threat. So a blue balled guy is in a battle against his own brain chemistry and the first step is to extricate himself from the situation, his thinking is compromised, now is not the time to try and talk to her and the absolute worst time to be drinking alcohol. He needs to go brush his teeth have a thorough shower and get a change of clothes, to get her smell off him basically, next he needs to clear out his system and the best thing for that is cardio intensive exercise, go to the gym, get on the rowing machine, work that frustration out. Finally if he’s still busting to nut he can have a wank before he goes to bed because by now he should be dead tired, post-wank clarity and rejection are not a good combination but after wearing himself out at the gym he should be ready to go straight to sleep and with any luck by tomorrow morning yesterday’s events will seem a distant memory.

washti said:
How about dealing with emotion after withdrawn consent for more after petting? What you would say if young guy will express feeling of entitlement for pleasure? How to make actionable change in attitude?
A guy who feels he’s entitled to sex sounds like he needs his ass kicked, I think it’s more often a case of mistaken expectations, that most guys don’t score very often so when someone’s making out with them they expect it’s going somewhere and anger is the result of unmet expectations. So I think this needs to be addressed before the petting begins, in part the onus is on society to instruct them that petting doesn’t necessarily lead to sex, in part the onus is with the girl to communicate her expectations before it begins, and in part it’s on the guy to just deal with the disappointment like a man.

But if his attitude is that he’s going to force the issue because it’s her fault for putting herself in this situation then he absolutely needs to get his ass kicked, as progressive an enlightened as we may try to be sometimes we still need to ooga-chaka an asshole.

washti said:
How would you design program for boys sexeduacation which content and delivery won't immediately put them in predator position and shaming them for it?
Have a class with boys and girls in it and talk about what is and is not consent, about how to manage circumstances (how not to get into a dangerous situation) and situations (what to do to get out of a dangerous situation), what a red flag is (coaxing someone into a potentially dangerous situation) and that if a guy has the attitude that his actions aren’t his sole responsibility then it’s ooga-chaka time. It’s also worth noting that rape and abuse aren’t exclusively a male-on-female phenomenon and that although girls shouldn’t be blamed for being raped if they should be called out on their behaviour if they’re putting themselves in compromising situations.

washti said:
How you would portray a woman to them? How would you talk about distribution of responsibility concerning reproductive issues?
Portray women? They’re people.
A woman’s right to her own body supersedes and rights of the child until the child is born, if however the mother was negligent during pregnancy (drinking/smoking) and it can be proven that she knew she was pregnant then she’s liable for damages to the child. Basically if someone’s pregnant and they don’t care about the welfare of the child they should get an abortion and if they decide to have that child anyway and put the burden of that child’s condition on society then society should demand compensation for damages on behalf of the child.

The father has no say in any of this as far as I’m concerned, unless he has an artificial womb or something and is willing to gestate the baby himself and is willing to take over the legal status as the mother, then the original mother must at least give him the opportunity to take over gestating the baby before aborting it herself.

washti said:
How would you present history of it? How would you portray feminist movements?
Back in the bad old days when people were stupid and religious women weren’t allowed to vote and now they are because we’re more enlightened and less stupid.

washti said:
Should these topics be in scope of sex edu program?Whats should be the topics scope?
Topics applicable to social studies should be taught in social studies, that’s what they call “history class” here in Australia, I dunno the main difference is that sex ed isn’t part of the curriculum it’s not graded like other lessons are and I don’t really have an opinion on whether or not it should be.

washti said:
Who should be a lecturer? What will disqualify someone?
Religious people, because I am openly and unrepentantly biased.

washti said:
How would you measure program's effectivity? Checking up how many students become parents before age 18/21?
If reported rapes went up that would be a matter of considerable concern, however I expect they would go down and if so then the program has achieved its purpose.
I don’t really have an opinion for or against young adult pregnancy, I think 18 is too young and 21 isn’t advisable but that’s more for economic reasons and although I think our society should be more supportive of young parents I do recognize the need for population control and economic throttling is the most effective way of doing that.

washti said:
No police records? What else/instead?
Crime is crime, rapists should have criminal records.

washti said:
Do you know existing good programs? What are the most valuable elements?
Honestly I don’t know any, I know there was sex ed when I went to school and I remember they briefly touched on consent but I don’t think they did a very good job of it and I particularly remember the class being taught separately to boys and girls and thinking there was something fundamentally wrong about that.
 
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