Inexorable Username
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This is a weird question here, and I tried and failed to google it. Keep in mind, here, that I'm not logician and I've only taken two mediocre classes in logic. I really haven't applied myself to studying this field yet like I would like to. So I'm posting here to see if anyone has a better grasp on the subject, and can answer this question that's been nagging at the back of my brain.
It's a hard thing to google, because the keywords associated with the question are more readily associated with more popular questions, if that makes any sense.
I believe that in order for a fallacy to be made, it must appear in the form of an argument that is stated to explicitly support a conclusion. Is that true? Or am I wrong about that?
Let me give an example. I recently came across a comment on YouTube. Something to the affect of "Stop calling liberals "progressive". They're not." Someone called this a fallacy. Is it, though? (I don't mean, is there a fallacy that fits it, I mean, can a statement be called a fallacy when it is phrased in this fashion). I was under the impression that, in order for the statement to meet the "bare requirements" of being able to "be a fallacy", it would have to be phrased as a statement designed to prove the validity of a conclusion.
So, for example, if the writer had phrased the comment in this fashion, I would think you could say that there was a fallacy being made:
"Progressive people are compassionate. Liberals are not compassionate, therefore, liberals are not progressive"
Or
"If you're progressive, you can't be illogical. So stop calling liberals progressive, because they're not!"
However poorly the argument is made, in this fashion, it takes the form of having a clear statement that is spoken in support fo a clear conclusion. Someone is trying to logically prove that something is true, therefore, it is reasonable to refute the logical validity of the arguments. By comparison, if someone were to say: "Pink is the devil," or "All pitbulls should be euthanized", or "Speaking like that is going to make people hate you"....None of these could be considered fallacies, could they? Am I wrong? Are opinions, comments, and otherwise generic forms of speech contenders for "fallacies"?
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Why I care (You can skip this section if you're tired of reading)
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Okay, here are a couple of reasons why I care about this - if you're interested.
For one thing, I've struggled with some less-than-appropriate behavior, myself, in this regard. In the past, I've had it to where I've felt like I'm "on a mission" to prove some jerk wrong about their ridiculous beliefs - and I've found it easy to lean on fallacies like a crutch, to do that. It's so easy to be like "That's a fallacy", and "That's a fallacy", repeatedly, in the effort to pick apart someone's stance. Particularly, one I feel contemptuous of. It's not behavior I value in myself and I've worked hard to adjust this - but I know that if I knew I was being illogical, it would be easier for me not to be a perpetrator of this abuse of fallacies. (At least, I see it as abusive speech).
Secondly, I've been a recipient of this behavior, myself. In particular, in my last relationship, the guy I dated would use the "fallacy weapon" to destroy my "argument" every time I tried to communicate my feelings in the relationship. Obviously, it wasn't a very healthy relationship...lol. But I kept thinking to myself - how can you say that I'm making a fallacy? I'm not even making an argument - I'm simply stating a belief, opinion, feeling, or my perspectives on an experience. To call those things a fallacy seems, to me, to be something of a fallacy itself. In fact, it seems like MORE of a fallacy than what you're pointing out...because to say that an obvious opinion is "illogical", or else to say, essentially "You have no right to feel that way", or "Your feelings are invalid" - that feels like an illogical statement. If, for instance, a person says "I feel like conservatives only care about money" - can this really be considered a fallacy? Considering a statement like this to be a fallacy would be the same as saying a statement like "It hurt my feelings when you called me fat" a fallacy. Obviously, it's not. Regardless of whether the person should feel hurt, the fact remains that they did, so, realistically, this statement was a factual statement. Regardless of how logical the feeling was, it still existed, did it not? So is it not, in its own right, a fact?
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The philosophy behind the question, and my uncertainty of its validity
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay so, at the end of the day....there's a philosophy behind this question:
Can something which is stated as a subjective opinion, experience, or belief (subjective belief), be considered an "argument". If not, can it be considered a fallacy?
I think, not. However, I do recall stumbling upon an essay or article I once read - something about a logician explaining "why you are not entitled to your opinion". I don't precisely remember what his rationality was, but I've encountered this same frame of mind in other people who appear to be well-versed in logic....although, I've also seen the opposite. Ben Shapiro springs to mind. Though he's famous for saying "facts don't care about your feelings", I don't think that he's ever stated before that feelings or opinions are logically invalid. Merely that they are illogical, if used to validate a stance/fact/objective statement.
I'm not really sure what the answer is, here, but if you're familiar with the subject matter or with this argument, I'd love to hear your stance, and I would love it if you knew of any fallacies related to this kind of logic-picking human behavior...or if you have sources or material you recommend (books or so forth), I'd be pleased to check them out!
-------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks, my brainy ppls!
~ Inex
It's a hard thing to google, because the keywords associated with the question are more readily associated with more popular questions, if that makes any sense.
I believe that in order for a fallacy to be made, it must appear in the form of an argument that is stated to explicitly support a conclusion. Is that true? Or am I wrong about that?
Let me give an example. I recently came across a comment on YouTube. Something to the affect of "Stop calling liberals "progressive". They're not." Someone called this a fallacy. Is it, though? (I don't mean, is there a fallacy that fits it, I mean, can a statement be called a fallacy when it is phrased in this fashion). I was under the impression that, in order for the statement to meet the "bare requirements" of being able to "be a fallacy", it would have to be phrased as a statement designed to prove the validity of a conclusion.
So, for example, if the writer had phrased the comment in this fashion, I would think you could say that there was a fallacy being made:
"Progressive people are compassionate. Liberals are not compassionate, therefore, liberals are not progressive"
Or
"If you're progressive, you can't be illogical. So stop calling liberals progressive, because they're not!"
However poorly the argument is made, in this fashion, it takes the form of having a clear statement that is spoken in support fo a clear conclusion. Someone is trying to logically prove that something is true, therefore, it is reasonable to refute the logical validity of the arguments. By comparison, if someone were to say: "Pink is the devil," or "All pitbulls should be euthanized", or "Speaking like that is going to make people hate you"....None of these could be considered fallacies, could they? Am I wrong? Are opinions, comments, and otherwise generic forms of speech contenders for "fallacies"?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why I care (You can skip this section if you're tired of reading)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay, here are a couple of reasons why I care about this - if you're interested.
For one thing, I've struggled with some less-than-appropriate behavior, myself, in this regard. In the past, I've had it to where I've felt like I'm "on a mission" to prove some jerk wrong about their ridiculous beliefs - and I've found it easy to lean on fallacies like a crutch, to do that. It's so easy to be like "That's a fallacy", and "That's a fallacy", repeatedly, in the effort to pick apart someone's stance. Particularly, one I feel contemptuous of. It's not behavior I value in myself and I've worked hard to adjust this - but I know that if I knew I was being illogical, it would be easier for me not to be a perpetrator of this abuse of fallacies. (At least, I see it as abusive speech).
Secondly, I've been a recipient of this behavior, myself. In particular, in my last relationship, the guy I dated would use the "fallacy weapon" to destroy my "argument" every time I tried to communicate my feelings in the relationship. Obviously, it wasn't a very healthy relationship...lol. But I kept thinking to myself - how can you say that I'm making a fallacy? I'm not even making an argument - I'm simply stating a belief, opinion, feeling, or my perspectives on an experience. To call those things a fallacy seems, to me, to be something of a fallacy itself. In fact, it seems like MORE of a fallacy than what you're pointing out...because to say that an obvious opinion is "illogical", or else to say, essentially "You have no right to feel that way", or "Your feelings are invalid" - that feels like an illogical statement. If, for instance, a person says "I feel like conservatives only care about money" - can this really be considered a fallacy? Considering a statement like this to be a fallacy would be the same as saying a statement like "It hurt my feelings when you called me fat" a fallacy. Obviously, it's not. Regardless of whether the person should feel hurt, the fact remains that they did, so, realistically, this statement was a factual statement. Regardless of how logical the feeling was, it still existed, did it not? So is it not, in its own right, a fact?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The philosophy behind the question, and my uncertainty of its validity
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay so, at the end of the day....there's a philosophy behind this question:
Can something which is stated as a subjective opinion, experience, or belief (subjective belief), be considered an "argument". If not, can it be considered a fallacy?
I think, not. However, I do recall stumbling upon an essay or article I once read - something about a logician explaining "why you are not entitled to your opinion". I don't precisely remember what his rationality was, but I've encountered this same frame of mind in other people who appear to be well-versed in logic....although, I've also seen the opposite. Ben Shapiro springs to mind. Though he's famous for saying "facts don't care about your feelings", I don't think that he's ever stated before that feelings or opinions are logically invalid. Merely that they are illogical, if used to validate a stance/fact/objective statement.
I'm not really sure what the answer is, here, but if you're familiar with the subject matter or with this argument, I'd love to hear your stance, and I would love it if you knew of any fallacies related to this kind of logic-picking human behavior...or if you have sources or material you recommend (books or so forth), I'd be pleased to check them out!
-------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks, my brainy ppls!
~ Inex