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This will not make me any friends.

SierraArcher

Redshirt
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Hey, I'm new to this forum. You may have seen a post or two.

It was quite a joy and a relief to find people like me after I had completely convinced myself that I was an alien mistakenly separated from my true world.

Since there aren't many of us out there, I figured many of you felt the same upon becoming a part of the forum and were grateful for it.

But what I'm seeing is a lot of people getting talked down to here and it's obviously not intentional since none of us INTPs actually give enough f**ks to go about trying to influence other people's feelings. And we all have brutal honestly in common and there's a mutual understanding there.

But why say something brief and negative about what someone else said?

Show them a mistake in their logic, go ahead.
Point out any contradictions they probably didn't realize they were making.
Give them a better perspective to think about.

...But why tell that person that they are wrong or sound dumb without offering why you think that?

That is not something I was expecting.
I thought a group of social minorities might be a more tight knit clan.

I've never gotten to know another INTP and I'm still learning, so let me know if I am misinterpreting.
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
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I'm not entirely sure that the trend you speak of is one that is stands out against the base rate, but I'll have a crack at answering your Q.

When someone is wrong and asserting their opinion, is it up to you to teach them? Shouldn't the hint that they are wrong be enough to make them look at their position and reassess their claims?

By shutting people down quickly you give them the option to right themselves without any drastic intervention on your part. If they cannot then identify/address the holes in their argument, then they can ask for help in this. If they don't want help, then you've saved yourself wasted time, and you have not ruined the thrill of the chase for them.

I think most of the shutdowns come from people with a very specialised understanding, and this information would take a lot of effort and time to convey.
 

SierraArcher

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Thanks for shedding a little light.

I guess I'm different in that if I don't have an alternate perspective that I feel like taking the time to throw out there, I won't comment at all.

I'll let them figure it out for themselves or have someone else point it out because if I'm not willing to take time and explain, I probably don't care enough to make a point of my opinion in the first place.

I see how you'd be giving the person who is "wrong" more of an opportunity to further develop or change their own ideas that way, but perhaps I'd prefer seeing something like "Rethink that a bit" rather than these shut downs that just seem completely discouraging.
 

Duxwing

I've Overcome Existential Despair
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@Hadoblado But if the poster didn't see a hole in their reasoning then, why would they see it after you shut them down?

-Duxwing
 

QuickTwist

Spiritual "Woo"
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Hadoblado

think again losers
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Because their understanding is not predictive of reality. If you have this theory that is so clear, then shouldn't it be clear to other people too? They're left to either dismiss all people who disagree with them as stupid, or to reassess their position to some degree.

To be clear, I generally don't like shooting down people that are being civil (at least not in a nasty way). My post above is more speculation than justification. I very rarely feel so confident in my position that I would completely disregard someone else's.
 

SierraArcher

Redshirt
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I'm so overjoyed when I see gears turning in a human being's head that I really don't care if they are right or wrong by my standards.

But I think that's just the effect that living on a college campus full of sorority imbeciles is having on me.

I have the overwhelming urge to give sloppy wet kisses to each of the rare people who have something semi-insightful to say in this dreadful college town.

So shutting people down is not on my agenda.
 

The Gopher

President
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That is not something I was expecting.
I thought a group of social minorities might be a more tight knit clan.
Welcome.

Some of us have formed tight knit clans, and we shall war against the invaders! Muahha... ok maybe not.

However, I hardly ever just say someone is wrong. When I do however I tend to be subtle. Asking them if they are sure and such... However when I have to (or get bored) and they don't understand something I just tell them that they are wrong and to go think about it.

Ps: I'll be anyone's friend.
 

Hadoblado

think again losers
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Also:

A lot of the people here are very intelligent, and also very used to being right, but not that many of us are actually INTP. At a guess, I'd say that the most common trait here is high intelligence, not personality type.
 

Meer

Jermbl
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I think, or hope, that when people post short, incendiary responses, that they are mostly trolling. I don't think they are trying to be a meaningful part of the discussion.

Yeah, not too tight-knit. Mostly distant and independent. Maybe it's just me. :phear:
 

TheScornedReflex

(Per) Version of a truth.
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I will drop kick your babies! You would be stupid to take this seriously.. Or maybe stupid not to. Who's to say? :eek:

Anyway, welcome to the forum. You peace loving, care bear hippie :D.
 

Minuend

pat pat
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When the forum just started up, there was a lot more long posts that tried consider a larger perspective and entered a debate with a humble mind. I see less of these people now.

I think a lot of it has to do with unwritten rules. Before it would be more of an ideal to gain this perspective where you would explore an idea without this thing of being right or wrong being tagged along with it.

It doesn't take much to change the environment, though. It probably happened gradually with some members being more intolerant and have a possessive need to ram their subjective truth down other people's throats. You have people who, as rigorously as any religious, is churning science and logic into a mess so complete that starting to unveil any flaws becomes a full time job.

The real truth seekers have little interest in engaging in futile debates and fades away and are replaced by the intolerant- increasing the negative aspects (in relation to an genuine interest in truth) of the atmosphere we have today.

I myself have had periods of time where I have been more impatient with hearing the same shit over and over again. I've been rude and closed my ears on occasions. Though, sometimes I want to go back to the more patient me, that old ideal. So I do. My ideals aren't very set, so I can fluctuate between what stance and attitude I chose.

I used to be more thorough explaining my reasoning, but the last year or so, I've mostly written a skimming version of my thoughts. Which isn't particularly clarifying.

In the matters of types; INTPs can be as subjective prisoners as any other type. Do not assign logical or objective authority to INTPs just because they are so. (Personally I don't buy into this type thing anymore other than some occasional reality thinking where types would be real).

By shutting people down quickly you give them the option to right themselves without any drastic intervention on your part. If they cannot then identify/address the holes in their argument, then they can ask for help in this. If they don't want help, then you've saved yourself wasted time, and you have not ruined the thrill of the chase for them.

I think most of the shutdowns come from people with a very specialised understanding, and this information would take a lot of effort and time to convey.
People have egos. Only the most humble will respond well to an attack. But most normal humans will respond defensively or hostilely. It becomes personal and the person's flaws become clear. The issue itself falls away and becomes replaced with a personal argument where you have two dominant factors:

1. The self-pronounced corrector (SPC) can not as easily admit he was wrong after stating his opinion so harshly and finally.

2. It is a culturally established phenomenon that if you agree with someone who is rude to you, you are accepting his behaviour and perhaps even on some level admitting that you are an idiot. If the SPC actually called the artificially-created defender (ACD) an idiot, then the debate is about the intellect of the ACD whereas he must be right in order to protect his self-worth and perceived intelligence.

As a result, both parties will usually end up looking like stubborn and narrow minded morons to the onlookers.

In my opinion, if you have no interest in elaborating your "specialized understanding" then debates are not for you. On this forum especially, your knowledge will be tested. People don't take it for granted that you are right just because you have certain experiences or educations. Authorities only gain respect if they are actually able to back up their opinions and show valid knowledge. Refusing to elaborate is like saying "just trust me on this" without giving us any reasons for doing so. It's arrogant and an insult to the intelligence of others to think that one's own perception is so absolute there can't be a single hole in it.

Myself see very vast connections and can become tired by even thinking of how much time and effort it will take to convey all this information. But you can not justify a douchish and dismissive behaviour from that.
 

loveofreason

echoes through time
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So shutting people down is not on my agenda.
The truth - out with it! You be afterz our treasure! :phear:

Don't think I won't be keeping a weather eye on you, m'laddie... :captain:
 

Jennywocky

guud languager
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You have people who, as rigorously as any religious, is churning science and logic into a mess so complete that starting to unveil any flaws becomes a full time job.
Right. Lots of energy investment. And to be honest, those who care enough and want to invest that time might find more productive channels to do it, or on a professional level. Write papers, debate publicly, spearhead projects.

If you really consider it, there's very little return for intense amounts of time and energy spent on a forum with limited traffic and audience. People aren't necessarily here to invest that amount of energy, especially if they're getting what they need intellectually from other sources. Typically the people who invest the most here are NOT getting that level of discourse they need from their environment, or don't have any particular projects (or family) that is taking up their energy, or simply really love this place and enjoy investing in it and have the time and energy to do it.

There's also a posting lifecycle. I know when I first came to the 'net and found intelligent discourse, I invested hours and hours in discussion with people. it's been about 6-7 years now, and I just don't have the same desire I once had. I'm here for other reasons.

Finally as you say later, you've already seen it all. Once you answer the same questions or have the same arguments a number of times, there's not much desire to repeat them again... and you also see where the argument is going and already know it won't work, but it's not worth the energy to take the newcomer by the hand and lead them through it One More Time.

So of course as the more thoughtful posters move on, it's easier for the less tolerant and more motivated to fill the space. I've already left two forums because I felt that that was what had happened, and the energy expenditure just wasn't worth it in the end.


I myself have had periods of time where I have been more impatient with hearing the same shit over and over again. I've been rude and closed my ears on occasions. Though, sometimes I want to go back to the more patient me, that old ideal. So I do. My ideals aren't very set, so I can fluctuate between what stance and attitude I chose.
I find myself moving back and forth between those two stances as well. I don't particularly like it, and when I realize I'm being unfair, I try to ease up. It's an interesting cycle to watch even in myself. Everyone is pretty human.
 

Solitaire U.

Last of the V-8 Interceptors
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Welcome,

But what I'm seeing is a lot of people getting talked down to here
Where exactly do you see this?

...since none of us INTPs actually give enough f**ks to go about trying to influence other people's feelings.
Oh, I don't know about that. I've seen some of us go fuck out of our way to give an extreme fuck about influencing other people's feelings. The cliquee cliquee atmosphere I sometimes observe here is probably evidence that some of us are at least somewhat successful in our endeavors thus.

The great INTP-iquity is no more linear a path than any other type. I see all kinds here; reds, blues, blacks, purples and a rainbow of other colors. I wouldn't make a statement like "None of us INTP's blah blah" simply because there are always exceptions, and a lot of members aren't INTP's anyway.

But why say something brief and negative about what someone else said?
As opposed to lengthy and negative, or are you just taking issue with us saying negative things about what other members said?

Show them a mistake in their logic, go ahead.
Point out any contradictions they probably didn't realize they were making.
Give them a better perspective to think about.
Those things would most likely be construed as negativity no matter how they were articulated. Perhaps better to be brutally honest in as few words as possible.

...But why tell that person that they are wrong or sound dumb without offering why you think that?
I don't exactly agree that it's better to go into a lengthy explanation as to why you think someone is a complete idiot who is full of shit. Most of the time, it's simply not worth the effort, for obvious reasons. However, it's also not worth the effort, or constructive, to call them a shitbag and leave it at that (though it is momentarily satisfying, a good enough reason to tolerate it perhaps, though that isn't my call).

That is not something I was expecting.
I thought a group of social minorities might be a more tight knit clan.
I'm tempted to take issue with the 'social minority' label. Regardless, "Tight knit" is not something I've experienced, nor would ever expect to on an INTP populated forum. My own chain of personality appears to be missing that particular link (if I'm a typical example of INTP-ism, whatever that is).

Again, welcome to the forum.
 

Solitaire U.

Last of the V-8 Interceptors
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I have the overwhelming urge to give sloppy wet kisses to each of the rare people who have something semi-insightful to say in this dreadful college town.
Duxwing...is...gonna...TOTALLY...love...you. :)
 

Chad

Prolific Member
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Hey, I'm new to this forum. You may have seen a post or two.

It was quite a joy and a relief to find people like me after I had completely convinced myself that I was an alien mistakenly separated from my true world.

Since there aren't many of us out there, I figured many of you felt the same upon becoming a part of the forum and were grateful for it.

But what I'm seeing is a lot of people getting talked down to here and it's obviously not intentional since none of us INTPs actually give enough f**ks to go about trying to influence other people's feelings. And we all have brutal honestly in common and there's a mutual understanding there.

But why say something brief and negative about what someone else said?

Show them a mistake in their logic, go ahead.
Point out any contradictions they probably didn't realize they were making.
Give them a better perspective to think about.

...But why tell that person that they are wrong or sound dumb without offering why you think that?

That is not something I was expecting.
I thought a group of social minorities might be a more tight knit clan.

I've never gotten to know another INTP and I'm still learning, so let me know if I am misinterpreting.
We can be friends. :rolleyes::phear:
 

QuickTwist

Spiritual "Woo"
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...
All joking aside, you seem like a pretty cool cat.

I might as well make an introduction.

I generally don't have much to say except for what I think is some sort of clever remark, but I do have my moments. Most of what I say is basic and not really all that informative but if you can get past that fact there may be times where I suprise you.

Far too often people have preconcieved notions (regardless of how smart they are) of what something is like in regards to if they have seen anything like it before. I know I myself will not be interested in something I am already familiar with and I think the same is true for many on this site. This point ties into what Jennywocky was saying about how when you see the same garbage day in and day out it gets a little annoying after a while. The other thing to consider would be whether or not an individual thought they could contribute something meaningfull to an already familiar topic to that person and to help others see the light. This is not meant to say that the motive for informing others is neccessarily for the greater good because some people just like to nitpick flaws while others like to say things publicly so that they don't have to repeat themselves. Still there are others who are similar to trolls who are kind of a nitpicking troll hybrid and all they care about (along with the trolls) is self gratification at anothers expence. To me this displays a complete lack of awareness on their part and my guess would be that they often don't even know why they are doing it. Typing in this regard, to me, is a tricky matter because you don't know exactly how much is a facade and who is being genuine in their quest to get people riled up. Honestly there are far better places to get you kicks in the real world where what you say can actually carry some weight.

People have 2 choices when presenting themselves online: be real or make something up. The later can be entertaining but there is really no substance to it. It will always be the next thing for them rather than the former where you can actually get a sense of what others are like though willingness on all the individuals part(s) to be honest conveying their ideas in a thoughtful manner.

Errr... forgive the grammar.
 
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Also:

A lot of the people here are very intelligent, and also very used to being right, but not that many of us are actually INTP. At a guess, I'd say that the most common trait here is high intelligence, not personality type.
Bingo

And @ OP, welcome to the forum:kodama1:
 

Minuend

pat pat
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People tend to confuse intelligence with wisdom. Cliché, perhaps, but I've seen enough of a mess from members who claim they have high IQ to realize there's something to it.

These last days where I have actually attempted to take things more seriously from a more detached perspective have actually been gratifying to me. I find I enjoy going completely into my mind and pull out what's in there. I actually learn something from what I write myself. Errr, I mean, of how I think and sometimes I question myself which leads to other interesting questions.

I'd forgotten how stimulating it can actually be to go full depth. Though, I'm rusty, so it'll probably take some time before I'm back full D:

I have difficulty expressing myself in general, so this is probably good exercise to me.
 

Montresor

Banned
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In a perfect INTP forum newcomers (and regular posters) would each have their posts evaluated (judged) individually (inwardly), on a post-by-post basis, by each individual INTP who reads them.

The resulting character judgements would be fluid and adaptable, based (no surprise here) on the ongoing merit and worth of each individual post a character contributes.

I also think that personal judgements would be withheld in favour of dispassionate logic and that more attention would be given to arguments and less to status and socialization. One thing I've noticed in this regard is that certain characters exist that are simply not doubted, ever ... they might as well preach the singularity and the fall of man.

While I'm on the topic - I think there are a lot of "Ti posers" here. What Ti-dom would ever turn to another Ti-dom and accuse them of "over-analyzing" anything? pardon? To expand further - I find that occasionally when certain characters find their ideas to be under scrutiny, analysis, argument, or whatever, the first response is to drop the issue, not post further, because the rebuttal wasn't "logical" or "interesting" enough, so what you find here is that a lot of good, sound arguments never even get off the ground before they are shot down. Theoretically, each post should receive the same attention, analysis, and scrutiny as the one before it and the one after it, in any given thread, regardless of who posted it. (yikes starting to sound Te-ish)

Likewise, there are characters who ignore other characters, regardless of whether the individual post deserves to be ignored or not. You could say that TL;DR (although some say it means too long; didn't read) actually means too lazy; didn't read.

To pass judgement based on observable cues such as post count, tenure, status, age ... is more common here than you'd expect!!


Tangent Warning -

The pattern of breaking down every post/statement somebody makes with the sole intent of refutation/rebuttal is not my idea of a good time, but if that's what it takes for some people to feel at home then let them do it I say.

I also think that there would be way fewer threads with more posts from more people. What I've noticed is that these "great minds"/"special INTPs" aren't really interested in posting and what you see instead is ... cliques. Cliques of current posters who can't help but get sucked into the popularity contest (even though nobody will freely admit they're participating in such a contest).

Mods don't say much here that pertains to moderating (this is of course my personal observation), and when they do step in, it's almost like they're responding to an emergency, and a whole bunch of rash discipline gets laid down, and then weeks are spent second-guessing decisions that shouldn't have been made in the first place. Some of them (won't point fingers) seem to have a strong, stable yearning for the ways of the past, without affording any psychic focus to its counterpart - the part that explores multiple possibilities and casts a web of interconnectedness.

I know it's cliché, but if ever there was a forum to be un-moderated, I would expect this to be the one.

Reality........................... far from it.
 
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