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thread for pagans only

Perfectly Normal Beast

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do not be overcome with rage or sorrow on our stolen holiday but be merry for this is as dark as it gets and in less than a week the garish farce of subjugation and consumption will be over.

meanwhile, let this child's delight console you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZGa40Hl4zI

if you are overcome by the urge to burn a real church i implore you to first check that there are no goddamned christians inside - let us not stoop to their level.

may your solstice be drunken and joyous.
 

Yellow

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Aw! that's cute.

And thank you. I tend to maintain a baseline of annoyance from living in an overwhelmingly Christian region and being forced to keep the nature of beliefs to myself (lest I be fired or otherwise ill-treated). But the holiday-replacement doesn't bother me in particular.

I'm a witch (please don't think I mean Wiccan) only because that is the best word to describe how I go about living my life. I celebrate/recognize the eight usual holidays quietly with my INTJ, and I think we enjoy ourselves more than most adults who are forced by religious and family tradition to "do" Christmas.
 

Kuu

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This thread brightens my mood like the morning rays upon a snowcapped mountain.

Sol is, has been, and shall continue to be genuinely relevant to life on this sordid space rock, falling ever sunwards until the final fiery consummation of their distant love affair.

Tonight let us all dance in blackness as does the radiant one in its cosmic waltz.

Gloria Sol Invictus!
 

Cavallier

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I don't know what I am anymore except I know I'm no longer Christian.

This made me giggle.
 

dair

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ehhhh :confused:

A lot of the symbols/customs were co-opted, but Christmas actually does have it's own basis. The actual date has more to do with when Christ was considered to have been conceived/born. In fact separate celebrations were once had on several suspected birth dates and Dec. 25 simply won out in the long run.

Speaking as an atheist, and one inclined to be sympathetic to xmas/consumerist haters; saying Xmas was stolen seems rather petty and ill-informed.

Not to mention that their are plenty of other winter holidays that don't receive such hostility even though they're equally as 'deserving' of it as Christmas.


As for 'stolen' symbols/customs, it seems most likely to me that previously pagan converts would be responsible.
 

Fukyo

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Y'all need Jesus.


This thread brightens my mood like the morning rays upon a snowcapped mountain.

Sol is, has been, and shall continue to be genuinely relevant to life on this sordid space rock, falling ever sunwards until the final fiery consummation of their distant love affair.

Tonight let us all dance in blackness as does the radiant one in its cosmic waltz.

Gloria Sol Invictus!

 

Absurdity

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Regressing to paganism seems dumb.

To make a choice among Gods, is that not the final expression of liberalism, and therefore of degenerated Christianity? If we have learnt anything from the manifold failures of multiculturalism, it is that religious freedom is downstream of religion. ‘Freedom of conscience’ lies at the furthest remove from a genuinely secular conception, if any such thing is even possible. If it now seems imaginable to shop for different gods, it is because of the way a distinctive religious tradition has worked out. If political considerations seem to occupy a position of meta-religious authority, the descent has been deeper still. Choice is internal to religion, even if the decayed image of religion serves to obscure this fundamental fact. Contemporary Occidental paganism remains dissident Christianity. There is no decision that could alter that.
More than willing to be convince otherwise though.
 

Yellow

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First, many pagans, myself included, have no god. I would say atheist, but I see no reason to define myself by what I'm not.

Second, it may prove difficult to convince you otherwise because Christians work so hard to justify their own religion by wholly bastardizing it. Therefore, I must ask: To which Christianity are you referring?

One that literally interprets the Bible?
One that ignores the rules of the Old Testament and only fully embraces the New?
One that thinks that God is just a symbol of love and the Devil a symbol for hate?
One that thinks the only thing that matters is your personal relationship with the almighty?
One that focuses more heavily on repentance than the actual rules of the religion?

All three of the big monotheist religious texts have very strong words against paganism and against atheism. According to their own teachings (where the religions and their boundaries are defined), we are not Christians. Not even close. To imply that we are some wayward Christian children trying to pick a new religion for ourselves is not only an expression of ignorance on the part of the claimant, it is marginalizing and dismissive toward those with beliefs that are fundamentally different from that of any monotheist religions.
 

Absurdity

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First, many pagans, myself included, have no god. I would say atheist, but I see no reason to define myself by what I'm not.

What's the point? Calling yourself a pagan is just as reactive.

Second, it may prove difficult to convince you otherwise because Christians work so hard to justify their own religion by wholly bastardizing it.

Not a Christian.

Therefore, I must ask: To which Christianity are you referring?

The quote makes it pretty clear that liberalism (in a very broad sense, as in the legacy of the Enlightenment) is a degeneration or evolution (depending on your perspective) of Christianity. Since liberalism is the theo-political grounding of the modern West, any religious debate that does not from the start dismiss this grounding is fundamentally an inter-religious feud.

It's not enough to call oneself a pagan. The Church never lost power, it just changed.

To imply that we are some wayward Christian children trying to pick a new religion for ourselves is not only an expression of ignorance on the part of the claimant, it is marginalizing and dismissive toward those with beliefs that are fundamentally different from that of any monotheist religions.

Then please educate me rather than getting needlessly condescending.
 

Yellow

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If there is a moderator around, perhaps this discussion can be split into another thread? I fear we've gone off course here, and I am not sure that I trust myself to start a new thread that fairly recaps/titles this derailment.

Back to the action...
What's the point? Calling yourself a pagan is just as reactive...
The quote makes it pretty clear that liberalism (in a very broad sense, as in the legacy of the Enlightenment) is a degeneration or evolution (depending on your perspective) of Christianity. Since liberalism is the theo-political grounding of the modern West, any religious debate that does not from the start dismiss this grounding is fundamentally an inter-religious feud...
It's not enough to call oneself a pagan. The Church never lost power, it just changed.
"Pagan" is the best English word (currently in widespread use) to describe a category of world views. This generally includes people who place their spirituality (here defined as the feeling of connection to something outside oneself) in understanding our place in the biological, seasonal, physical, geological, astrological, etc. patterns and rhythms of the world we live in. The word "pagan" may have been assigned to (rather than created by) people whose spirituality falls into this category, but it is hardly reactionary.

Further, Pagan philosophies do not necessarily include or deny Liberalism. Even if we were to accept the assumption that they do, the rejection of monarchy in favor if democratic rule and the idea that all people have a natural right to certain liberties are not exclusively Christian.

I just don't see enough evidence to lead anyone to accept the premise that all philosophies that do not reject liberalism are a degenerated form of Christianity. It seems a little absurd, (he he!) really. Perhaps I just need convincing.

It is well and good to imply that pagan beliefs are just "The Church's" newest transformation (though it sounds a bit Doctor Who-ish), but it is a grasping statement. One that is rejected by the predominant writings and teachings of "The Church" as it stands.
 

computerhxr

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Fantastic video! Kids are friggin' adorable!

All beliefs are equally as valid and exist to spite (or bring life to) each other. They are an avatar designed to protect and communicate a model of reality.

The cross only has meaning because we give it meaning. Burning down a meta-physical church sends a message, and alleviates the social burden placed on everyone by their opposing church of thought. Without challenge, it will lose meaning and cease to exist (and become mythical). More fuel for the fire of life.

There are non-denominational Christian churches that would welcome pagans. Not all Christians are blinded by faith.

I would classify myself as one part pagan but I don't express myself with the standard avatar.
 

Perfectly Normal Beast

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Regressing to paganism seems dumb.

More than willing to be convinced otherwise though.

perhaps some versions of paganism are merely "dissident christianity", i'm not familiar enough with the variations to comment but i have encountered pagans with faith comparable to christianity, at least in its certainty and fervour.

"pagan" is a very broad term but is commonly used to describe non-christian religious belief which was my intention in the thread title. for me personally that is "religious" belief in that i am an atheist but feel reverential towards and to some degree "worship" my "creator" i.e. nature, which i perceive as an nothing more than an unconscious force which by pure chance "gave" me the consciousness which allows me to appreciate its beauty, complexity and power (and fragility).

the cycles of nature, from the daily shift from daylight to darkness to the changing seasons shaped our evolution and i think our (society's) remoteness from these rhythms and from nature in general is both a cause and a symptom of the sickness of humanity in the present era.

is it dumb, then, to try to incorporate these cycles into our lives and to mark the more dramatic of the events in them? to me it makes perfect sense to alleviate the tedium of winter and celebrate the end of decreasing daylight with a great celebration/feast. it certainly seems less dumb to me than choosing to exist in the perpetual child-like state that christianity demands, cowering under a petulant, jealous god and pleading for forgiveness for your inherently "sinful" nature (that he blessed you with).
 

Absurdity

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If there is a moderator around, perhaps this discussion can be split into another thread? I fear we've gone off course here, and I am not sure that I trust myself to start a new thread that fairly recaps/titles this derailment.

I'll split it if PNB thinks its an uninteresting or out of place digression.

"Pagan" is the best English word (currently in widespread use) to describe a category of world views. This generally includes people who place their spirituality (here defined as the feeling of connection to something outside oneself) in understanding our place in the biological, seasonal, physical, geological, astrological, etc. patterns and rhythms of the world we live in. The word "pagan" may have been assigned to (rather than created by) people whose spirituality falls into this category, but it is hardly reactionary.

It's defining yourself by what you are not, which you have a problem with when it comes to one word but not the other. Anyway, a minor issue I wouldn't want to spend an inordinate amount of time discussing.

Further, Pagan philosophies do not necessarily include or deny Liberalism. Even if we were to accept the assumption that they do, the rejection of monarchy in favor if democratic rule and the idea that all people have a natural right to certain liberties are not exclusively Christian.

I just don't see enough evidence to lead anyone to accept the premise that all philosophies that do not reject liberalism are a degenerated form of Christianity. It seems a little absurd, (he he!) really. Perhaps I just need convincing.

It is well and good to imply that pagan beliefs are just "The Church's" newest transformation (though it sounds a bit Doctor Who-ish), but it is a grasping statement. One that is rejected by the predominant writings and teachings of "The Church" as it stands.

I'm not talking about the particular philosophies, I am talking about the assumptions that underlie the very intellectual space in which the debate takes place. I don't think "paganism" is dumb, I think the very act of choosing to identify as one thing over another in some sort of public sphere is dumb. Only degenerate Christianity AKA liberal Enlightenment values allow for this choice, or at least this illusion of choice to take place. It's like choose-your-own-adventure Protestantism without the dead guy on the tree.

Anyway, it's amusing because even though the experience gives this impression that one can *choose* to be anything, the options are always very formulaic, as if they're all filling out the same form in order to be considered socially coherent or legible.

The guy being quoted in the article I linked to, a self-professed "pagan" is the one who is making this point. It isn't like I came up with this on my own:

The very fact that I frame this identity as a “choice” is itself proof of decadence — a vibrant metaphysics simply is and has nothing to do with a rational actor listing pros and cons. Ironically, those who profess the Old Gods are weakened because what they profess is so obviously new and a product of innovation and modernity. Few would even call it a real faith that actually expresses literal belief in personalized divinities. […] The new pagan cults that preach fanaticism and virility owe too much to reason and deconstruction.
Also I thought I made it clear already but I do not mean liberalism = democracy and rejecting it doesn't make you a monarchist. That's an even more laughable position to try and take seriously.
 

Animekitty

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OrLevitate

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I'm intrinsically luminous, mortals. I'm 4ever

Rook

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PNB, your video has brought me light in a time of darkness, where my family thrusts upon me the traditions I most abhor.

Or something along those lines.
 

Cognisant

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Modern Paganism may well just be dissident Christianity but as an athiest I see no reason not to join in, Pagans know how to party and anything that sows dissent amoung the sheep is worth supporting, the more religions there are the easier it is for atheists to be heard.
 

Rook

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Modern Paganism may well just be dissident Christianity but as an athiest I see no reason not to join in, Pagans know how to party and anything that sows dissent amoung the sheep is worth supporting, the more religions there are the easier it is for atheists to be heard.


It does not matter whether a religion is correct, merely whether it is fun.
So, in essence, you are correct.
 

QuickTwist

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Hey anti religion... errr sort of.
 

higs

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Pagan rituals are so much cooler than boring praying. Pagans all the way ftw. Team pagan whoop whoop.
 
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