Thread Split From "I Tried To Kill Myself"

[jpc]

First thing this video lead to was me realizing that 'Bruce Wayne' (Christian Bale) has exactly the same appearance/style that 'Patrick Bateman' (Bale playing a Malignant Narcissist/Narcissistic Psychopath) from American Psycho.
I never liked Bruce Wayne either (saw The Dark Knight before I saw American Psycho).. He seems to me like the bad guy who likes the glory of being the Good Guy Fighting Against Everyone Else for the sake of being "the Good Guy", sort of like America (all linked to Narcissism).
The Joker is the good guy gone crazy in my opinion. It's the good guy turned nihilistic and tired (and also crazy/malignant in this particular case).
Bruce Wayne ("The Good Guy") - Patrick Bateman (Narcissistic Psychopath)
[igauchex=260]http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/8600000/Bruce-Wayne-the-dark-knight-8602327-967-1450.jpg[/igauchex]
[idroitex=260]http://www.awesomelols.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/patrick-bateman-loves-lana-del-ray-american-psycho.jpg[/idroitex]

Now sorry for having skipping the point thus far; however I did watch the video 2 times now.
I didn't pay attention to everything, and I haven't watched Dark Knight Rises, so I guess I've lost some of the point, but I think what this guy is saying is mostly pretty coffee-psychology-like. Lots of stereotypes that applies to many people in depression, but this doesn't seem to address much more than just that to me.
Sounds to me that the gist of what he's saying is stuff like "you should try", "don't give up" - he even asks "so why not try?".. And it's mostly all about becoming normal. Except, he mentions, that those having been on the dark side/been through depression etc have more motivation, are better able to relate to people, etc - so, lucky us I guess.
Can't say that stuff helped me at least.
Should consider watching that movie, though.

"Just get friends, get a girlfriend, have alot of sex"
I think how he ends his video is pretty revealing, although not very articulate or precise.
He says something like "hopefully, if you're going through that, [...] what you're willing to do, ok?"
And indeed, that's the thing. You can always neglect something or other to get out.
I like what the director (or some other related guy) of the movie "Kon-tiki" said: "Success is usually paid for by other people and that's what this movie is about."
I honestly think that, Narcissism, is the narrative of success (in a Narcissistic society)... And that's why it's always taught in these circumstances.
And then because a Narcissistic Society is always right and everyone else are always wrong, then everyone who doesn't want or are able to be Narcissistic are bad, dark, evil.
While in reality the roles are reversed, portrayed in many of these popular movies nowadays, like The Dark Knight.
Supposedly The Thinker (The Joker) is the bad guy, just give him a scary smile and portray him as a violent psychopath and the role is set, and the Wealthy Guy (Bruce Wayne) is the good guy, just make it seem that he's fighting evil/the psychopath and that role is set.
In the real world the roles are very opposite.
I.e. CEOs of companies are 400% more likely to have full-blown Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

So... yeah... not a big fan of this portrayal. I'm side-tracking at quite extraordinary lengths here though, but I still think I made a point here, so - worth it.​

There are many interpretations to this movie. Or movies in general. And I am not usually interested in trying to extrapolate what it all means, but you make some interesting points. Still, you are not the good guy if you start fucking up other people´s lives.

You are also right about the fact that this culture loves to breed narcissism and many people are successful because there are others who work at menial jobs. But that´s the society we live in. You can either keep writing about how awful it is or you can try to do something about it. By not helping us improve the world, you are being narcissistic.

I personally have found that depression can be overcome if you identify the cause. If you blame someone else, it is actually your fault. Not because you caused the other person to behave in a way towards you that made you feel depressed, but because you let them get away with it and win.

I have been depressed. A lot. I havent taken any medication. Nobody really helped me, when I needed help. What helped me get out of it was not letting myself succumb to these negative emotions. I have been nihilistic, in fact I still am. But the reason I am not depressed is that I know that if I try hard enough I might just be able to help someone who is going through what I was going through. You can choose to make the world a better place, however cliche it sounds, or you can choose to feel bad about yourself and hurt others around you.

Fuck all the superhero movies. There are no heroes who are going to come and save us. We are going to have to do it ourselves.

 

[Viqing]

Re: I Tried To Kill Myself

There are many interpretations to this movie. Or movies in general. And I am not usually interested in trying to extrapolate what it all means, but you make some interesting points. Still, you are not the good guy if you start fucking up other people´s lives.

Spoiler

Of course.
In the case of The Joker, fucking up others lives is the "portray him as a psychopath"-part I was talking about (or meant to refer to). What I might be saying (hence meant to say) is that the character The Joker in this movie IS a Psychopath, but character-wise these Psychopathic traits doesn't really make much sense, or his personality characteristics otherwise, such as inquiring, deep thinking(?), and so on doesn't fit with being a destructive armageddon-inspired nihilist, and the guy behaving like a psychopath actually being the good guy doesn't make sense either.
It's turning certain critical roles upside down, which might re-affirm popular naivety in the viewers, that the guy who thinks and embraces that the world is insane is bad and evil, and the guy who looks and behaves mostly like a psychopathic narcissist except for supposedly being there to save the world and fight evil is the good guy.
James Bond is another movie that re-affirms popular naivety: intelligence services are the good guys out there to save the world, join them and have an epic good-guy adventure filled with women, sex and other epicness.
Except that the James Bond movies are so superficial that I think people are easier able to be more skeptical towards the fantastic suggestions presented.

You are also right about the fact that this culture loves to breed narcissism and many people are successful because there are others who work at menial jobs. But that´s the society we live in. You can either keep writing about how awful it is or you can try to do something about it. By not helping us improve the world, you are being narcissistic.

What other than writing can you do? It's not narcissistic btw, it's being chicken or whatever, but it's generally not narcissistic not to immediately go try-hard mode in exposing and bringing down the system of the wealthiest and most powerful people in the world all by yourself or with a bunch of Internet tinfoil-hats. What else are you doing about it anyway? ;D
I get your point of course, I'm just not sure if the conclusion is correct..

I personally have found that depression can be overcome if you identify the cause.

I agree.

If you blame someone else, it is actually your fault. Not because you caused the other person to behave in a way towards you that made you feel depressed, but because you let them get away with it and win.

I understand the logic behind this, but I think this is strictly logical, like a rule that should be programmed into machines, but I'm not so sure if this is right for humans.
We have this thing called empathy deep inside us, and without it we don't have much chance (to survive as a specie, etc).

Here's a short speech on the subject

I have been depressed. A lot. I havent taken any medication. Nobody really helped me, when I needed help. What helped me get out of it was not letting myself succumb to these negative emotions. I have been nihilistic, in fact I still am. But the reason I am not depressed is that I know that if I try hard enough I might just be able to help someone who is going through what I was going through. You can choose to make the world a better place, however cliche it sounds, or you can choose to feel bad about yourself and hurt others around you.

I'm trying hard enough online.
I currently believe that the odds are stacked against me in real life, so I'm not gonna place a bet on it.
I have precisely the same motivation as you, I guess it's probably quite common though, to try help others whose going through similar problems.
But I can't be someone's mother. Can't be a parent or a pseudo-parent for that matter either (too young, inexperienced, "hate" my own life how can I love someone else, etc). I think what I expected from people in my life, and what I really wanted from someone, was someone either to say things are OK (by telling me what is OK and how to adopt to it/become the OKness in the world) or that the world isn't OK and what to do about it. Nobody did of course. So I finally spent years online (all my teens as a matter of fact), looking through conspiracy theories and the-like, and I decided that the world really isn't OK - there's many things that are OK (i.e. the beautiful natural world, art, all the good people, etc) , but the "world" (our society) isn't. Something is very strongly fundamentally wrong with many things in our societies, especially of course the thousands of deaths that could have been easily prevented every day and the slave laboring and so on that's still going on in the world, but even in "our" western world, there's not enough acknowledgement of suffering going around.
And to be honest I'm a little confused that an INTP is saying "if you're not acting, and just thinking about it, you're a narcissist" or whatever. Aren't we INTPs basically thinking machines? We think things through for a long time before we act, right?
I don't see what's wrong with that.

And I don't believe in the "you can make the world a better place or hurt people around you"-philosophy, I must admit.
I'm gonna take a Sam Harris and say for example that it's very hard to lay in a bed and do nothing all day.
The point being that natural progress is always going on.
That "selfishness" and other negative behavior is in most cases caused by ignorance. I think the only exception to this is just like a minority of people doesn't appreciate or consider empathy (called psychopaths), so is there a minority of people that doesn't appreciate or consider 'trying' (to better themselves etc) at all.
So some people needs to get kicked in the ass. But most people only need one kick... And not a big kick. Just a push, a medium kick in the ass. Only a minority needs more than one kick, I think...
So I don't think all of this ass-kicking is the AllMighty & Powerful solution to depression and the-like. It is a solution, just like a solution for a poor person is stealing and drug-dealing.
But I don't think neither of these solutions should be advocated - I think they're both desperate in each their way

Fuck all the superhero movies. There are no heroes who are going to come and save us. We are going to have to do it ourselves.

Helllz yeeeeaaaahhh

 

[jpc]

Re: I Tried To Kill Myself

Of course.
What other than writing can you do? It's not narcissistic btw, it's being chicken or whatever, but it's generally not narcissistic not to immediately go try-hard mode in exposing and bringing down the system of the wealthiest and most powerful people in the world all by yourself or with a bunch of Internet tinfoil-hats. What else are you doing about it anyway? ;D
I get your point of course, I'm just not sure if the conclusion is correct..
What other options do you have?

I understand the logic behind this, but I think this is strictly logical, like a rule that should be programmed into machines, but I'm not so sure if this is right for humans.
We have this thing called empathy deep inside us, and without it we don't have much chance (to survive as a specie, etc).
Then I guess we are headed for a disaster, because all the empathy filled people are on the internet writing how awful the world is and letting the maniacs rule the world


I'm trying hard enough online.
I currently believe that the odds are stacked against me in real life, so I'm not gonna place a bet on it. I dont think I can do it, so I wont?
I have precisely the same motivation as you, I guess it's probably quite common though, to try help others whose going through similar problems.
But I can't be someone's mother. Can't be a parent or a pseudo-parent for that matter either (too young, inexperienced, "hate" my own life how can I love someone else, etc). I think what I expected from people in my life, and what I really wanted from someone, was someone either to say things are OK (by telling me what is OK and how to adopt to it/become the OKness in the world) or that the world isn't OK and what to do about it. Nobody did of course. So I finally spent years online (all my teens as a matter of fact), looking through conspiracy theories and the-like, and I decided that the world really isn't OK - there's many things that are OK (i.e. the beautiful natural world, art, all the good people, etc) , but the "world" (our society) isn't. Something is very strongly fundamentally wrong with many things in our societies, especially of course the thousands of deaths that could have been easily prevented every day and the slave laboring and so on that's still going on in the world, but even in "our" western world, there's not enough acknowledgement of suffering going around.
And to be honest I'm a little confused that an INTP is saying "if you're not acting, and just thinking about it, you're a narcissist" or whatever. Aren't we INTPs basically thinking machines? We think things through for a long time before we act, right?
I don't see what's wrong with that. I am not an INTP. So you decided that something´s not right, but instead of acting, you decided to think more. You cant keep thinking for the rest of your life.

And I don't believe in the "you can make the world a better place or hurt people around you"-philosophy, I must admit.
I'm gonna take a Sam Harris and say for example that it's very hard to lay in a bed and do nothing all day.
The point being that natural progress is always going on.And the same time you are not contributing at all. It´s like you are waiting for someone to do the job for you
That "selfishness" and other negative behavior is in most cases caused by ignorance. I think the only exception to this is just like a minority of people doesn't appreciate or consider empathy (called psychopaths), so is there a minority of people that doesn't appreciate or consider 'trying' (to better themselves etc) at all.
So some people needs to get kicked in the ass. But most people only need one kick... And not a big kick. Just a push, a medium kick in the ass. Only a minority needs more than one kick, I think...
So I don't think all of this ass-kicking is the AllMighty & Powerful solution to depression and the-like. It is a solution, just like a solution for a poor person is stealing and drug-dealing.
But I don't think neither of these solutions should be advocated - I think they're both desperate in each their way
So we should do nothing, because you dont think it is the right way? You really did not say why it is not the right way to go about it. All you said was "I´m not sure" or "I dont believe". Fuck. You are set in your ways, there is no point int trying to convince you. Maybe I should become an elementary school teacher and start making people after my own liking

...

 

[Viqing]

Re: I Tried To Kill Myself

I KNOW!

i was debating on it, but i figured if that dude was able to connect manufacturing consent into a suicide thread...i just HAD to say something

Spoiler

:Chuckles: good point... I digress like someone with Schizophrenia.. I used to think I was pretty smart, but I've started to consider that, as the skeptics would say, my brains are about to fall out.

Mckenna was on a completely different plane when it came to psychedelics

Some might say on the same plane as psychedelics :smiley_emoticons_mr
He kinda looks like a plant if you ask me. Could easily imagine smoking him.

but he seems to be able to connect the dots on a lot of the mystery that surrounds the subject...

I myself don't know enough about McKenna. I just enjoy listening to his psychedelic rambling, and as with everyone with little to no agenda, he never really gets old, his every lecture seem to have a new angle/perspective or content.

and although it can be a real bore/chore at times, ive always admired chomsky for the very thorough academic he is.

Amen. That's why I [try] draw inspiration from him - in that he's just the most insanely educated guy ever taking a big stance against the wrongdoings in the world, and shedding the light of academia on these issues - which is such a massive contribution, or was at least to me.

Such a shame, people hear "chomsky" and react to the name, rather than his substance.

Not sure what you're referring to. But I can assume that you're referring to him probably not being considered "legit" enough for not being willing to shut up about stuff? Or how does people react to his name?

as far as wilson...im just hitting the tip of that iceberg

Wilson is my Absolute favorite #1, and in a way my only Really Real favorite
I'm not certain as to why, but R.A.W is the only person I can remember that made me feel at loss when realizing he had passed away.
I guess there's something about him that's just so intimate and honest that he was probably easy to internalize as a father figure.. And then there's the fact that I just relate[d] so much, more than with anyone else.
I still treasure the random fact that R.A.W is top #3 out of ca. 100 celebrities picked in so-called "Biorhythm" "measuring" some kind of compatibility with me and another based on birthday/numerology =p
The other top 2 was Ricky Martin (1st place) and my favorite film directory, Richard Linklater (2nd) :P
I was considering saying that I don't think I have that much in common with Ricky, but I just realized after watching some interviews that it's not what they're saying, but what Ricky, Linklater and R.A.W actually seem to have in common is a feminene and honest way of expressing themselves, both verbally and facial and head/neck-related ques and behavior. Sort of. Just looking for a couple of coincidences between 3 people of course

Nostalgia - a clip I once picked out from ML..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLiNo7Pm3WI

What other options do you have?

Spoiler

Not many. Can't do much if anything at all alone.

Then I guess we are headed for a disaster, because all the empathy filled people are on the internet writing how awful the world is and letting the maniacs rule the world

They are?

I am not an INTP.

Well, that helps explaining things, I guess

So you decided that something´s not right, but instead of acting, you decided to think more. You cant keep thinking for the rest of your life.

Well, I can, first of all. It's called being INTP - thinking is mostly what we do.
I could almost say the same thing about Extroverts: you can't always just act, if you just act all the time without thinking you'll be manipulated by everyone so easily and not be aware of anything that's really going on around you until it's knocking on your door.

In my world things aren't so simple and black and white that you can go and immediately solve anything you see that is wrong.
I'm not sure you captured what I wrote in my last reply: corruption & conspiracies among the wealthiest and most powerful people in the world is not something to take lightly. In fact it might be the hardest and biggest task humanity has to concern itself with currently, and it's been so for quite a few millennia now, and you expecting one single 20 years old suicide-candidate to "stop just thinking about it and go act - solve this problem right now, you lazy bastard!" I think is quite silly.

I dont think I can do it, so I wont?

I rather put some of my money on Black or Red rather than on 0, yes.
I don't like gambling all my money away.

And the same time you are not contributing at all. It´s like you are waiting for someone to do the job for you

And you have access to this knowledge after reading 4 of my posts equivalent to about 60 lines or so of text in an online INTP-forum, really?
How do you know anything about what I'm doing and not doing, you entitled silly goose, you.

So we should do nothing, because you dont think it is the right way? You really did not say why it is not the right way to go about it. All you said was "I´m not sure" or "I dont believe". Fuck. You are set in your ways, there is no point int trying to convince you. Maybe I should become an elementary school teacher and start making people after my own liking

We should all strive to educate ourselves.
The lack of education is what's left us in this mess to begin with, in that we prevent the flourishing of evolving technology to get out on the market because capitalism is still closer to our core than knowledge and enlightenment is.
I'm not sure what 'way' you're referring to, I was suggesting restricting the ass-kicking a little for now. If you'd like to know an argument for why ass-kicking is bad: it's primitive, outdated, and it's treating a human being as a machine (power on you god damn robot!). If you really want to power on a human being, in most cases what you do instead of forcing it to do something, is to give it the opportunities to do things and be constructive and gain goods, opportunities - not force, and of course making the opportunities more attractive by means of gains of material goods or otherwise not otherwise accessible when not taking the opportunities presented.

I'm trying only to be humble when I say "I'm not sure". It's a science-thing - I like a certain level of accuracy to estimations and claims, and thus dislike when people are sure of themselves in cases where the objective chances are say anywhere between 0-80%. What I mean to say, if I need to push it one level further, is that I actually completely disagree, but trying to have an open mind and welcoming your input as long as it's rational.

We might differ on our goals, indeed. As you seem to suggest by your ending statement you're interested in convincing people, I'm interested in a constant flow of input and output, where the convincing part is given more to the music than the instruments. It's not the Guitar or the Piano which "is" superior, it's the music they produce.

 

[jpc]

Re: I Tried To Kill Myself

Well, I can, first of all. It's called being INTP - thinking is mostly what we do.
I could almost say the same thing about Extroverts: you can't always just act, if you just act all the time without thinking you'll be manipulated by everyone so easily and not be aware of anything that's really going on around you until it's knocking on your door.

You just have to think fast enough... I didnt say you have to be constantly doing something. Just do something.

In my world things aren't so simple and black and white that you can go and immediately solve anything you see that is wrong.
I'm not sure you captured what I wrote in my last reply: corruption & conspiracies among the wealthiest and most powerful people in the world is not something to take lightly. In fact it might be the hardest and biggest task humanity has to concern itself with currently, and it's been so for quite a few millennia now, and you expecting one single 20 years old suicide-candidate to "stop just thinking about it and go act - solve this problem right now, you lazy bastard!" I think is quite silly.

Again, I didnt say that. I said that the problem is not going to solve itself. The more inactive we are, the bloodier it is going to be.

And you have access to this knowledge after reading 4 of my posts equivalent to about 60 lines or so of text in an online INTP-forum, really?
How do you know anything about what I'm doing and not doing, you entitled silly goose, you.

I think you are being too pessimistic. That´s all.

We should all strive to educate ourselves.
The lack of education is what's left us in this mess to begin with, in that we prevent the flourishing of evolving technology to get out on the market because capitalism is still closer to our core than knowledge and enlightenment is.
I'm not sure what 'way' you're referring to, I was suggesting restricting the ass-kicking a little for now. If you'd like to know an argument for why ass-kicking is bad: it's primitive, outdated, and it's treating a human being as a machine (power on you god damn robot!). If you really want to power on a human being, in most cases what you do instead of forcing it to do something, is to give it the opportunities to do things and be constructive and gain goods, opportunities - not force, and of course making the opportunities more attractive by means of gains of material goods or otherwise not otherwise accessible when not taking the opportunities presented.

What are you talking about?

I'm trying only to be humble when I say "I'm not sure". It's a science-thing - I like a certain level of accuracy to estimations and claims, and thus dislike when people are sure of themselves in cases where the objective chances are say anywhere between 0-80%. What I mean to say, if I need to push it one level further, is that I actually completely disagree, but trying to have an open mind and welcoming your input as long as it's rational.

Do you really think you are going to have all the time in the world, when you are making decisions?

We might differ on our goals, indeed. As you seem to suggest by your ending statement you're interested in convincing people, I'm interested in a constant flow of input and output, where the convincing part is given more to the music than the instruments. It's not the Guitar or the Piano which "is" superior, it's the music they produce.

I´m just saying that this conversation is getting nowhere. Metaphors, eh? You are playing the violin. And you wont stop playing the violin, no matter what notes I will give you.

I´m a robot? Noooo!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1VW2hYFe4A

 

[Viqing]

Re: I Tried To Kill Myself

You just have to think fast enough

Spoiler

"Thinking quickly" is synonymous to "considering basic stuff".
You'll never be able to wrap your mind around anything sufficiently advanced or complex by thinking quickly about it. And undoubtedly coming up with a strategy & plan to beat the wealthiest and most powerful people in the world most come under this category of the advanced & complex...
I don't know if you're trolling or you just can't stand thinking for some ironic reason (irony => being/writing in the forum which you currently reside), but unless you're trolling you should generally be aware of the positive values of thinking deeply/contemplating.
It's ironic that you also call me pessimistic somewhere down there in your post.
I'm not the one complaining about Extroverts and how they're useless human beings until they start thinking deeply about complex issues.

Again, I didnt say that. I said that the problem is not going to solve itself. The more inactive we are, the bloodier it is going to be.

You're implying it, actually, although I like to exaggerate a little on purpose just to show where the borders/thresholds are, rather than being afraid to even getting closer to those borders which I think most people are.

How is thinking being inactive? You might have a problematic understanding of thinking in my opinion. People that can't think undoubtedly seem to be inactive (inefficient) when they're trying to think, just like thinkers who may be bad at being practical seem inactive (are inefficient) trying to be practical.
If you firmly presume that human beings and their endeavors are based in and limited to being monkeys running around gathering food and throwing poop, then indeed thinking is being "inactive", we should make sure to ban thinking forever if we paradoxically were able to prove that it was so.
More likely however, reflected in the technological & intellectual evolution/revolutions, thinking is & becomes an extremely important prerequisite to act properly as society advances & evolves.

I think you are being too pessimistic. That´s all.

I wasn't being pessimistic in criticizing your presumptions. I just think your presumptions are terrible and that you have no justification to have them. If you're gonna presume things, at least be straight-up and honest about them so that they're open for critique. If you don't let your presumptions and prejudices be exposed to critique and potential change, then what is the point of a debate? Just asserting that you're right, fin?

What are you talking about?

You "asked", "So we should do nothing[?]".
No, and I never said that - we should educate ourselves, and if you call that "doing nothing" then so be it. That's "what I was talking about".

Do you really think you are going to have all the time in the world, when you are making decisions?

What are you talking about?

I´m just saying that this conversation is getting nowhere.

So stop talking.

Metaphors, eh? You are playing the violin. And you wont stop playing the violin, no matter what notes I will give you.

Right, 'cus I don't need to stop playing the violin to play your notes unless it says "PIANO" on there, and if it said so that would mean that you're dictating what everyone should do as if you were the composer (= God -- remember we talked about Narcissism earlier?), and if I think your piece is crap then of course I'm not gonna play it, it's my instrument, you go get your own.

 

[Da Blob]

Re: I Tried To Kill Myself

Not meaning to interrupt or derail, but thought does not even exist in reality, so thinking is, basically, an utter waste of time.

That statement is pretty much the foundation of the Behaviorist school of psychology that dominated the field for the first fifty years. There is no objective evidence that humans 'think', that is to say thoughts can't be observed or measured on a standardized scale. Therefore, thinking as a phenomena is not a valid target for scientific investigations, but rather was considered to be a Black Box phenomena.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box_theory



The early psychologists paid attention to Pavlov, for a short time, for his research showed a measurable correlation between stimuli and conditioned responses that could be observed in the "Real World". This gave the psychologists an excuse to pretend not to be philosophers, but rather, real scientists - with real numbers to prove it.

So to make a long story short. We think only about problems and solutions. A person without problems does not have to think very often and a person who does not think very often usually has a lot of problems

Thoughts are components of a problem-solving process and as such, are not complete in themselves, but require decisions and actions to follow them in the process to manifest in the "Real World" as observable actions.

The quandary is this, a person can have wonderful thoughts and beautiful visions, but if they result in no actions, then it is as if they never existed. Instead, the observable actions of people, mere conditioned responses or mindless habits comprise the bulk of human reality.

It is important, not to derail one's own thought process from being a problem solving mechanism that produces actions and adaptations. It is analogous to a conveyor belt in a factory running amok and spilling the product unto the floor, these thoughts that go no where.

 

[Viqing]

Re: I Tried To Kill Myself

So to make a long story short. We think only about problems and solutions. A person without problems does not have to think very often and a person who does not think very often usually has a lot of problems

Spoiler

Right, but there's also a correlation between what we call intelligence (ability to recognize) and the urge or interest of thinking too, don't you think?
Because someone who recognizes more, who is more intelligent, will inherit more problems simply by being able to recognize them.

Thoughts are components of a problem-solving process and as such, are not complete in themselves, but require decisions and actions to follow them in the process to manifest in the "Real World" as observable actions.

The quandary is this, a person can have wonderful thoughts and beautiful visions, but if they result in no actions, then it is as if they never existed. Instead, the observable actions of people, mere conditioned responses or mindless habits comprise the bulk of human reality.

Right, of course, but I think the keyword which was stressed in my conversations with jpc was immediate, not end-result.
There's undoubtedly a need for an end-result.
Although I think there is a result in knowledge in itself. It alters your behavior, it's like having a new piece of software installed on your hard drive, and that in itself is a result, a product, an accomplishment, assuming that one will ever interact with the world again, of course.

It is important, not to derail one's own thought process from being a problem solving mechanism that produces actions and adaptations. It is analogous to a conveyor belt in a factory running amok and spilling the product unto the floor, these thoughts that go no where.

Good point. Although to the last point: I think our brain is a placeholder already, so nothing is spilled until a memory loss occurs.

I don't know anything about behaviorism (though I probably should?), and also I I'm not entirely sure whether you were merely joking or was serious in bringing up that topic, so I left that part out in my reply for both of these reasons. :P

When did my thread become aggressive :<

Spoiler

Sorry :P I've had you in the back of my mind (of course'ish) especially in my last reply, but I usually like to finish my intellectual business when it's already started. ("Finish" as in going with the flow until it stops somewhere)
This most certainly is your thread, and I think I should get my own.
I appreciate having been lent some room though, feel free to drop by in one of my potentially upcoming threads sometime and crave some attention yourself

Edit: put spoiler tags in all but my original post.
Forgot about this function, otherwise I would've done it earlier ;D

 

[Da Blob]

Re: I Tried To Kill Myself

I think there is a result in knowledge in itself. It alters your behavior,

Knowledge has the potential only of altering behavior, so it has to be used to effect action before it itself is real. Trivial knowledge is trivial

Is one familiar with the OODA Loop as a simple problem solving formula?

[bimgx=650]http://intpforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1912&stc=1&d=1358728647[/bimgx]

here is an important distinction between observation and orientation as components of the thought process prior to decision making. Our attitudes filter our observations and our beliefs filter our orientations.

And yes, thought is a cycle for every solution to a problem is a new problem in itself.

Anyone who has misplaced faith in the false science of psychology should read an unbiased account of the history of psychology. The founders of the school of Behaviorism bailed out to become advertising executives, instead...

 

[jpc]

Re: I Tried To Kill Myself

Spoiler

"Thinking quickly" is synonymous to "considering basic stuff".
You'll never be able to wrap your mind around anything sufficiently advanced or complex by thinking quickly about it. And undoubtedly coming up with a strategy & plan to beat the wealthiest and most powerful people in the world most come under this category of the advanced & complex...
I wasnt talking about solving the problem that is the elite controlling the world. I was more thinking of contributing to the cause in smaller ways so that it would result in a positive and a influential change in the future. Education, which you already mentioned, is one way to go about it.

I don't know if you're trolling or you just can't stand thinking for some ironic reason (irony => being/writing in the forum which you currently reside), but unless you're trolling you should generally be aware of the positive values of thinking deeply/contemplating.
It's ironic that you also call me pessimistic somewhere down there in your post.
I'm not the one complaining about Extroverts and how they're useless human beings until they start thinking deeply about complex issues.
I was joking. Dont start to make straw man arguments.

You're implying it, actually, although I like to exaggerate a little on purpose just to show where the borders/thresholds are, rather than being afraid to even getting closer to those borders which I think most people are.
Again, straw man arguments is not the way to go.


How is thinking being inactive? You might have a problematic understanding of thinking in my opinion. People that can't think undoubtedly seem to be inactive (inefficient) when they're trying to think, just like thinkers who may be bad at being practical seem inactive (are inefficient) trying to be practical.
If you firmly presume that human beings and their endeavors are based in and limited to being monkeys running around gathering food and throwing poop, then indeed thinking is being "inactive", we should make sure to ban thinking forever if we paradoxically were able to prove that it was so.
More likely however, reflected in the technological & intellectual evolution/revolutions, thinking is & becomes an extremely important prerequisite to act properly as society advances & evolves.[/COLOR]
I am not against thinking things through. I am against not trying to find a way, if you seem to be given more than most of the population. You seem to not even want to try. That´s pretty much the argument I failed to make you understood: try it, and then complain, if it doesnt go as well as it should have.


I wasn't being pessimistic in criticizing your presumptions. I just think your presumptions are terrible and that you have no justification to have them. If you're gonna presume things, at least be straight-up and honest about them so that they're open for critique. If you don't let your presumptions and prejudices be exposed to critique and potential change, then what is the point of a debate? Just asserting that you're right, fin?
Why do you think I wasnt honest about them? I wasnt saying you were being pessimistic in criticizing my ideas, you were pessimistic in your expression of your thoughts.


You "asked", "So we should do nothing[?]".
No, and I never said that - we should educate ourselves, and if you call that "doing nothing" then so be it. That's "what I was talking about".See the first paragraph


What are you talking about?
If you dont act, then others will for you.

So stop talking.
I can´t I am an extravert, or so they say...

Right, 'cus I don't need to stop playing the violin to play your notes unless it says "PIANO" on there, and if it said so that would mean that you're dictating what everyone should do as if you were the composer (= God -- remember we talked about Narcissism earlier?), and if I think your piece is crap then of course I'm not gonna play it, it's my instrument, you go get your own. What I meant to say was that you keep playing the violin, even if the notes say Piano on it. But let´s forget these metaphors...

...

 

[Viqing]

Re: I Tried To Kill Myself

Knowledge has the potential only of altering behavior, so it has to be used to effect action before it itself is real. Trivial knowledge is trivial

What do you mean by "used to effect action"[?]. If one acts at all one has already affected action by the subtle change of ones behavior required to make any action.

Is one familiar with the OODA Loop as a simple problem solving formula?

[bimgx=650]http://intpforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1912&stc=1&d=1358728647[/bimgx]

New Information is misplaced, it should be on the top - I must already deem this loop unworthy for not knowing how to properly use Thy Almighty Pentagram.
Nah, but really, I only tend to care to look at these humorous black, white & blues when I'm at the same time in mood for updating myself on the latest XKCD and Anna Moss' cartoon. I'm too tired right now ;D
Am I excused?

here is an important distinction between observation and orientation as components of the thought process prior to decision making. Our attitudes filter our observations and our beliefs filter our orientations.

I'm not following (assuming there is a point in there) :InsertYawningSmileyHere:.
PS: I'm insinuating that I'm tired (11 AM here & been up all night) more than you boring me, though as a sincere and honest bastard I must admit there's an element of the latter too.

And yes, thought is a cycle for every solution to a problem is a new problem in itself.

This is most certainly gibberish...

Anyone who has misplaced faith in the false science of psychology should read an unbiased account of the history of psychology. The founders of the school of Behaviorism bailed out to become advertising executives, instead...

I think this smiley resembles a man w/ tinfoilhat the most.

...

@jpc
I don't care to re-build that quote-page yet another time (seeing you like to destroy it by just bracketing it all in with [ quote][ /quote] and expect me to clean your shit up), as I've decided to dismiss you from the debate anyhow.

As my last reply to you:

I've got nothing to add to your first paragraph except: keep your entitled claims to how other people, especially random onliners, should live their lives to yourself.

You clearly weren't joking, and it wasn't a strawman-argument, it was a counter-strawman, if you had any capacity for focus you'd notice the part where I was mocking a perception I (and I'm certain others too, including yourself) have of you carrying and subtly expressing strong prejudices against NTs (or whatever your problem is - I'm [fortunately] not your shrink), and I tried to address this, not as a matter of fact but of suspicion and concern [for the debate], as a fairly brief side-note. Your instant counter-claim of me "building strawmen-arguments" further affirms this suspicion.

Still not a strawman - I simply expressed my opinion/perspective - "I firmly believe that you're implying it", and as I try not to be overly formal at every single instance in every single matter & conversation, especially not online ones with emotional passive-aggressive trolls around every corner, I try to leave out 'I think' in my every sentence, something which is quite normal to do, if you haven't noticed.

More presumptions (much more strawmen-like than anything I've presented in this debate, but unlike some other person I try not to overuse these already unfairly overused, abused & stereotype debate-accusations).

You're not honest (as defined by not putting your presumptions and so on on the table), again confirmed by how you instantly accuse me of building strawmen whenever I express my intuition/suspicion about/of subtle abuse of debate ethics.
You presume I haven't tried, just like you presume everything else, and then you accuse me of building strawmen when I point out that you only presume and are avoiding being addressed on it - what a joke, you're a troll ^.^ nothing more.

You're merely suggesting something based on common trivia (or whatever it's called - 'common nonsense'), you're not providing a serious argument or anything else interesting here, obviously just trying to draw me into your Philosophy of Dullness & Paranoia; Act or They Will Act Before You! Which is what got us into all of this retarded nonsense in the first place, like Religion; Worship God or God Will Get you First!

Oh, right, the stupid people. Keep the lasagna flying.

Again I was just countering your stupidity/evident ignorance - it's not up to me to eloquently clean up your mess.
I don't need to change instrument to play your notes, because notes doesn't require a change of instruments, you tone-deaf baboon.
Expect to pay $5 á reply if you decide to write to me again.
I have a Death Ray also known as HOIC ready for the infidel who dares cross me on this (and I'm not kidding).

 

[jpc]

Re: I Tried To Kill Myself

This is most certainly gibberish...

All you said was I´m bored and I need some sleep. Brilliant.

I don't care to re-build that quote-page yet another time (seeing you like to destroy it by just bracketing it all in with [ quote][ /quote] and expect me to clean your shit up), as I've decided to dismiss you from the debate anyhow.

Lol, then why are you still arguing... If you want to end the debate, just dont reply. It is that easy.

I've got nothing to add to your first paragraph except: keep your entitled claims to how other people, especially random onliners, should live their lives to yourself.

You clearly weren't joking, and it wasn't a strawman-argument, it was a counter-strawman, if you had any capacity for focus you'd notice the part where I was mocking a perception I (and I'm certain others too, including yourself) have of you carrying and subtly expressing strong prejudices against NTs (or whatever your problem is - I'm [fortunately] not your shrink), and I tried to address this, not as a matter of fact but of suspicion and concern [for the debate], as a fairly brief side-note. Your instant counter-claim of me "building strawmen-arguments" further affirms this suspicion.

The ideas that you built YOUR straw man agruments on, were not straw man arguments. I have strong prejudices against NTs? What the fuck are you talking about? So in reply to me accusing you of making straw man arguments, you thought the right thing to do was to make more these types of arguments?

Still not a strawman - I simply expressed my opinion/perspective - "I firmly believe that you're implying it", and as I try not to be overly formal at every single instance in every single matter & conversation, especially not online ones with emotional passive-aggressive trolls around every corner, I try to leave out 'I think' in my every sentence, something which is quite normal to do, if you haven't noticed.

So if you are thinking that I´m implying something, you dont even need to consider the fact that I clearly said I wasnt implying it?

More presumptions (much more strawmen-like than anything I've presented in this debate, but unlike some other person I try not to overuse these already unfairly overused, abused & stereotype debate-accusations).

It is fairly pointless to state this, if you do not even care to use quote tags.

You're not honest (as defined by not putting your presumptions and so on on the table), again confirmed by how you instantly accuse me of building strawmen whenever I express my intuition/suspicion about/of subtle abuse of debate ethics.
You presume I haven't tried, just like you presume everything else, and then you accuse me of building strawmen when I point out that you only presume and are avoiding being addressed on it - what a joke, you're a troll ^.^ nothing more.

It was wrong of me to presume that, I admit.

You're merely suggesting something based on common trivia (or whatever it's called - 'common nonsense'), you're not providing a serious argument or anything else interesting here, obviously just trying to draw me into your Philosophy of Dullness & Paranoia; Act or They Will Act Before You! Which is what got us into all of this retarded nonsense in the first place, like Religion; Worship God or God Will Get you First!

What does religion have to do with it, you enlightened scientheist.

Oh, right, the stupid people. Keep the lasagna flying.

Again I was just countering your stupidity/evident ignorance - it's not up to me to eloquently clean up your mess.
I don't need to change instrument to play your notes, because notes doesn't require a change of instruments, you tone-deaf baboon.
Expect to pay $5 á reply if you decide to write to me again.
I have a Death Ray also known as HOIC ready for the infidel who dares cross me on this (and I'm not kidding).

Fuck off. You obviously dont need anyone´s input, so what are you doing here?

 

[Viqing]

Re: I Tried To Kill Myself

Fuck off. You obviously dont need anyone´s input, so what are you doing here?

Death Ray targeted and locked on.
Stay out of the Internet for 24 hours, Estonian Troll.
PS: You forgot to add "from stupid people" to make the sentence complete.

 

[Da Blob]

Yep, either a troll or just stupid, IMO

I'm out of here

 

[jpc]

If you consider me to be a troll then report me to the admins and have me banned. Threats like that will only get you into trouble with the police.

 

[Viqing]

If you consider me to be a troll then report me to the admins and have me banned. Threats like that will only get you into trouble with the police.

Already done, but I prefer taking things into my own hands, I'm capable of fixing my own problems ^^

Please leave another comment if you'd like a few more days off, free of charge.

 

[Fukyo]

Viqing, I suggest you don't throw your weight around with threats that you can't follow through on. You should check your own tone and conduct in a discussion before you start raising alarms about others.

Furthermore, this is not your thread - this is a split thread in a quality control subforum, which I hope you can figure out what means, and regardless of that it's not up to you threaten other members about what they can or can't post on the forum.


It seems the discourse here has little chance of survival anyway. Thread closed.


Oh, and if someone disagrees with you, it doesn't make them a troll.