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Bill Nye vs Ken Ham

GodOfOrder

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Here's the video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6kgvhG3AkI

I'm curious about a few things specifically. I DO NOT WANT TO HAVE A CREATION DEBATE. (Part of my motivation for making this thread is seeing whether or not you can resist the temptation)

1. How did Bill look?
2. How did Ken Ham look?
3. Are you disturbed by the fact that the debate is even happening?
4. What are the social implications of the debate?
5. Highlight the hiccups in debate (idiotic, and strategically detrimental moves on an interlocutor's part).

I want this to be an analysis of debate tactics, public perception of the two interlocutors, and most importantly, their performance.

Bonus points: Note logical fallacies, especially red herrings.
 

Budthestud

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I don't believe in creationism but I actually liked Ken Ham's intro and 30 min segment. I found most of what he said not to be too terribly unreasonable.

As for Bill I think he kinda jumped the gun with a quick stab at Noahs Ark right from the getgo. I also was not impressed when he started off his 30 min segment. After he got into it and was speaking for awhile I felt that his arguing was at the level that it should have been to start with. Also I was slightly disappointed that he saved a main point of his argument (atleast imo a main point) for much later "Why should I take the word of a 3000 year old text (that was translated/interpreted into english like one would play the game of telephone) which contradicts what I can directly observe right now", instead he started off mainly focusing on the flood and debunking it, which he should have rolled into from the main point imo.

As a general overview of the debate I did not like Bill Nye often trying to "appeal to the person" rather than actually debating why science is better. I thought Ken ham did a very good job at not doing this and I would commend him for this. Also in the question section Bill Nye Would slow down right at the end of his time and go over almost every question, I think this was bad ettiquette and thus reflected badly on him. Again Ken Ham did not do this .

However, towards the end I could feel Bill pulling through. The difference in their veiws came right down to the nitty gritty and many of the "logical problems" of creationism where showing through. That being the answer to every question was "because the good book says so". I think Ken Ham sensed this and was slightly uneasy (even though I am pretty sure he genuinly believes in his view). I would have to say that science won the day, but I also don't think it wasn't really that bad for creationism (again just my opinion).

I don't think at all that this was an "End all" debate for creationism. Personally I wish Bill would have talked more about why religion even exists, and that we shouldn't believe anything more than what we can observe (I think there could be a lengthy lecture, from a philisophical/psychological/historical view, on these topics that should lay religion to rest for good).

Also noteworthy is the fact that I have watched some creationism sermons on Youtube before this and I thought they put some good critiques to science (maybe not all of them are viable, but it was logical that atleast some of them could be). Many of the critiques are things that may be questionable science in high school textbooks. They say this is "the man" trying to enforce a science "religion" on students, but I think maybe its questionable who high schools are buying their books from (and how old those textbooks are). Also creationists highlight everytime someone is trying to declare something as science but really it has no grounds at all and is extremely fallacious. I have to admit that often people do sucky work or are corrupt as fuck, and bad teachings slip through the cracks. On the whole, though, I would still have to go with science.
 

The Gopher

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I don't think either of them looked as well as they could have. The troubling things were troubling to me and it troubles me to hear that.

:P Also didn't like either neck piece.
 

Budthestud

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Just watched some post debate YT shows and I forgot to mention some things.

I didn't like Ken Hams use of videos at all. It was very propaganderous and I think he should have somehow justified himself more after showing them as to why they aren't propaganderous (obviously to some extent they were, which should be ok as long as thats not the main focus, but I think he could have been a little more subtle with it or something).

Also I liked Bill's 4000 years for 16 millions different types and also the kangaroo story (not just this specific thing with kangaroo's but the whole principal of all kinds migrating and not leaving behind evidence). One critique I have though is that he just did an average of species growth over that time. Obviously though in real life population growth is exponential not linear. However, to his credit, this would mean that the original animals were all the same for awhile (atleast until 2 reproductive cycles) and then new species appeared even faster than an average of 11 per day. Populations of animals dont change that fast today (atleast I dont think they do).

A lot of the videos and articles are bias one way or another (I like to think that I am being pretty unbias). The more I think about it the more I have to side with Bill, but this divide was not as evident for me during or immediatly after the show.

I would give the whole debate a rating of: Meh
the only significance I feel it holds is that it has Bill Nye in it.
 

Budthestud

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Oh and another thing, If I where Ken I would have spouted even more of the bible and creationist theory (even if it's somewhat fallacious. I feel he held back a little). I would have said things like "the devil placed the fossils there to trick you" and other shit like that. I would say that because that's what they actually believe. Your already making a leap of faith believing in the bible, if your not going to deny that and then use your belief in the bible as an arguing point then you might as well bring up everything else you believe (thinking about it right now as I write this I think he held back as to cushion the criticism he may recieve from people that don't share his views).
 

Budthestud

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I wish someone would do a series of serious lectures that COMPLETELY DESTROY'S EVERYTHING ABOUT RELIGION. They should spare no assumption and take religion as a serious theory so it can be meticulously torn apart. I want to see like infinity million reasons why its a shitty theory. They should come at it unbiasly. I want to learn things, and it's execution should be extremely creative, original, unique, beautiful, and I want it now.

If such a lecture exists, or atleast an attempt at one, please link it :)

Edit: omg found it. Almost excatly what I was looking for :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCS1twX2i6s
Update. just finished it all and I didn't like the large amount of time he spent on meditation as a good thing (makes me think maybe he is Buddhist bias), but otherwise I agree with everything he said. He is my new role model.
 

Jennywocky

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Oh and another thing, If I where Ken I would have spouted even more of the bible and creationist theory (even if it's somewhat fallacious. I feel he held back a little). I would have said things like "the devil placed the fossils there to trick you" and other shit like that. I would say that because that's what they actually believe.

Lol, wow. But yeah, that argument always did blow my mind. The devil is quite powerful and talented, he can not only create fake dinosaur bones but he plays with starlight so that we think the light takes a really long time to get here.

Pretty much at that point, he's into constructing his own reality, as there's nothing that can't be explained away or ignored.

Still, as is obvious, he's not interested in a scientific meaning for life; he's letting personal ethics drive the bus and determine how to interpret facts rather than taking them at face value.
 
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