Do you fail to recognize intelligence in others? why?

[WALKYRIA]

Why do I fail to recognize intelligence in my peers?

Explanation: I am supposed to be in an environment-- I infiltrated it in order to study/ analyze a group considered to be one of the most intelligent one in our society(because of the intellect obsession of INTPs)-- of highly intelligent people....
Thing is yeah, these guys get great grades, are very comfortable in the academic setting, and sometimes present a semblance of thinking abilities, are very confident in their pseudo-abilities... but meh, I fail to be moved by their "intellect"... like I sometime move people around me. I just cannot see greatness in them.
I already started a topic like this but didn't get enough satisfactory responses .

The problem with that is that I'm now questioning my sanity and correct grasp of reality and wondering:

- Am I really that incapable of recognizing intellect in these allegedly highly intelligent people? Am I actually delusional or way too far in fantasy-ego centered land ?

- Is it a matter of Te vs Ti ? Ya know I'm a "sensitive" shy intellect evolving in a world of hard working, highly confident brutes

- Wondering if I'm not overestimating my abilities( Coz it seems to be classic in INTPs) ?( Although I generally don't get brilliant grades-- I mean there is no obvious or valid reason I should think I'm that much brighter than the brightest kids in my class -- I just feel like that.(and feelings are unreliable, so I'm stuck between Feelings of superiority and the facts= average grades; but I'm also aware of the impossibility of grades to grasp intelligence; also, my low grades are kinda voluntary and the product of an inherently rebellious and nihilistic mind...etc)

- Superiority complex? that one must be...

-Ok, Could it actually be possible that I'm actually that smart?(which is statistically speaking difficult & obviously not true, since the supposition relies on unhealthy subjective feelings emanating from Ne-Ti analysis. )

- What about the famous INTP blind spots?( My post seem to have plenty of them)

-oh this shitty Fi of mine... I would guess that INTPs base their Fi on the level of their overall intellect or competence.( Outside of academy.. I feel like highly competent, and feels good. Once in the highly structured environment, feels wrong because associated with history of chronical underachievement !). Isn't it crazy that we place our Fi on something purely abstract(= intellect) and without clear definition? Intelligence cannot be defined universally and yet we aspire to it the most out of all the MBTI groups (with INTJs).... weird. I guess if we placed our Fi on clearly measurable things like hardwork or results( as J people !) , than we would feel much better and be more confident independently of our raw intellectual ability.

-I hate feeling superior because I just hate displaying any sort of malignant arrogance.... BUt I just can't help but feel superior sometime. It's like pathological lol.

- Crazy thing think is I find certain people here--some didnt achieve anything major-- smarter than my peers.( BUt again, certain people just want to appear intellligent !)

... Oh, lord I've got it.. I'm not smarter but actually more creative( and that is statistically speaking more likely !)comparatively to my peers.




Anyways, do you easily recognize intelligence in your peers?
Help a lost soul solve this equation.
thanx

 

[Minuend]

Yes

 

[nanook]

haven't read your whole post. most likely causes are stages of development (sometimes loosely correlated with age) and / or egocentricity. "I fail to be moved" most stages are hardly moved by most other stages, especially not intellectually. see spiral dynamics, integral theory. egocentricity: rating everything in reality based on whether it is doing you any good, being bored by and superficial about perceiving everything else.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Simply put: They don't think like I do.

 

[nanook]

problem with attributing own issues to functions, even if it is done correctly, which it is usually not, is that functions are lines of intelligence, which are also each developed to particular stages, in your own profile of lines, so if your Fi is a neurotic troll from the underworld, that's not Fi's fault or descriptive of Fi's intrinsic nature, it's just your individual development ...

 

[OrcaNerd]

I think you would have to consider some criteria for intelligence, then answer some questions. How many criteria must be met to be considered intelligent? How can this criteria be measured? What do intelligent people do? How does this intelligence lead them to act? How does this compare to the unintelligent?

When you have that figured out, try applying it to people. You cannot use yourself, lest subjectivity and bias enter the equation.

My husband and I had a conversation on what constitutes intelligence. Here are some items on our list.
1) Creativity
Intelligent people are able to think outside the box and consider alternative solutions. They can also create new things, such as inventions and art. They can look at a complex object or system and break it down in their minds to figure out how to create a home made version. For instance, a creative person sees that a scale may be fashioned out of a hangar. They can also look use old information in new ways. For instance, my roommate was trying to shim a pool table. He had no one to help him lift it. So I thought, "What do I know of that lifts heavy objects? A car jack!" There is no one solution per problem nor one problem per solution.

2) High confusion tolerance
Unintelligent people would have a mental break down in a confusing situation, such as getting lost in an unfamiliar city. Of course, this criteria also requires careful consideration of what might reasonably be considered confusing. A game may be confusing to a beginner, but after the 3rd time playing, it shouldn't be. This extrapolates to quick learning; the greater the decrease in confusion per exposure to a problem or situation, the more intelligent one is. My mother has the lowest of anyone I've ever met. She is intelligent, but overly emotional. I see her intelligence in her creativity, good memory, quick uptake and other ways.

3) Analytical reasoning
Can a person break complex ideas into small parts? If a person reads a paper, can he tell you which words betray the writer's opinion, tone, etc? If you give him an argument, can he derive a core belief from that argument? Can a person pull from history to examine a conversation, statement or argument? If you say you dislike selfish people several months after you called John Smith selfish, does the person suspect you don't like John Smith? Did you notice I said don't use yourself as an example to compare intelligences and the did so myself? I think intelligent people are insightful and recognize their own inconsistencies.

4) A good memory
This is generally held to correlate with intelligence. A good memory allows one to learn from experience and retain new information to apply in the future.

5) IQ Score
We agreed this may result in a false negative due to its limitations, but did agree if someone has a high IQ score, we could conclude the person is intelligent.

These are just some examples; I hope it helped. You might not see them in a situation to display their skills; throw 'em a bone. Even you have a problem solved, ask them to solve it and see if how the respond.

You may also run into the issue of not valuing certain intelligences. If you don't like feelings or emotions, you may undervalue someone's ability to rapidly assess and gain insight to someone's mental state based on very brief interaction.

Also, if you are dealing with very young people, you may mistake trying to be analytical, creative, etc and not being very good at it with lacking intelligence when, in truth, the person is thinking correctly and developing skills.

 

[WALKYRIA]

yeah

Thanx for your input:
creativity, high confusion tolerance and analytic reasoning... Yeah, all NTs have that, logically. And we all know that personality is not consistently associated with intellect, so...etc

Simply put: They don't think like I do.

That's freakin too easy... have you ever infiltrated their minds?

And Nanook, can you please elaborate? Don't really understand the development stages thing... You talkin bout Erikson's?

I'm really starting to get comforted in the idea that there's no clearly defined differentiating factors( between the many levels of intellect) beyond a certain threshold of intellect( beyond perhaps master /doctorate degree level ) & that the nature and hallmarks of intelligence( in adults) seem to be a local thing.

Minuend, you so sexy gyal !

 

[Goku]

There are four reasons (that I can think of) that one would fail to recognize intelligence within his peers:

1) the "intelligent" person (in the group) has an IQ two standard deviations or more than the subject. It is difficult to recognize intelligence that is too far beyond one's own comprehension. An average guy will know that a doctor is smarter than he is. But an average guy looking upon an Einstein (eccentric scientist) may not recognize genius, but may instead see crazy.

2) he is the dumbest person in the room and has not realized this fact yet.

3) he is the smartest person in the room, and cannot legitimately find someone more intelligent than he.

4) the most intelligent ones are also the best ones at hiding and blending in, like chameleons, so you may never find them

 

[WALKYRIA]

So Goku basically you mean 2 things here:
- I'm too smart to recognize their intellect.
- I'm too dumb to recognize their intellect.

Chances are that I'm far too dumb to understand SJ intellect... I agree wholeheartedly.

And what if Einstein would have struggled through med school ? Can you imagine einstein in medicine... what would it be like?




4) the most intelligent ones are also the best ones at hiding and blending in, like chameleons, so you may never find them.

Can you explain yourself here? I don't quite understand... Why would a smart balanced guy hide?

Personally although I never talk, move much or get social , i stand out like "A LOT" mainly or I suspect so because of my quirkiness and weird behavioral patterns. Pretty curious. I'm the quiet laid back mysterious guy in the school settings. I'm good at blending in and chameleoning but it's basically becoz of lack of confidence in the class setting.... most of the good students stand out loudly and don't care about hiding IMO. SO you not so right Goku and I think it's more nuanced ... But great input though.

 

[Goku]

So Goku basically you mean 2 things here:
- I'm too smart to recognize their intellect.
- I'm too dumb to recognize their intellect.

Chances are that I'm far too dumb to understand SJ intellect... I agree wholeheartedly.

And what if Einstein would have struggled through med school ? Can you imagine einstein in medicine... what would it be like?




4) the most intelligent ones are also the best ones at hiding and blending in, like chameleons, so you may never find them.

Can you explain yourself here? I don't quite understand... Why would a smart balanced guy hide?

Personally although I never talk, move much or get social , i stand out like "A LOT" mainly or I suspect so because of my quirkiness and weird behavioral patterns. Pretty curious. I'm the quiet laid back mysterious guy in the school settings. I'm good at blending in and chameleoning but it's basically becoz of lack of confidence in the class setting.... most of the good students stand out loudly and don't care about hiding IMO. SO you not so right Goku and I think it's more nuanced ... But great input though.

There are a lot of reasons to hide one's intelligence. Unless you own your own business, it makes a lot of sense to hide the fact that you're smart. Managers are insecure and your intelligence makes them uncomfortable.

Intelligence is not rewarded, obedience is.

You could assume the ones who stand out loudly are the most intelligent ones. I would be looking for the guy sleeping in the back of the class (he's probably still making A's).

 

[WALKYRIA]

it strikes me as pretty obvious that you have bias in your thinking... thinking that "one could still get A's while sleeping in the back of the class" would be possible in more demanding programs is silly.... and you added that intelligence is less rewarded than hard work.( Which I agree with and which is actually the reason why smart and lazy people will always fail to get As in our academic system !)
But again, getting As is not the best way to hide ones intelligence...It's pretty much the contrary.

 

[Black Rose]

Intelligence is about problem solving but not necessarily about making the right choices. I understand things in certain ways that others might not. Making distinctions I know why something is the way it is but manipulation of the environment may be a problem for me. If I can have a conversation with someone who can make me think in a different way and I learn something I can tell they are comprehensive intellectually. The structure of thought reforms to engage the concepts for new insights. The area at which we best make use of our knowledge allows for a diversity where as those who do not have an opinion are in a position to add to what it is they know. By participating you may become an expert faster that others. This familiarization with the subject is how you find out the capacity someone has as they evolve in their skills.

 

[Brontosaurie]

i've been told (by a fellow member of the aspergerian master race) that i overestimate other people's intelligence. or rather their ability to think just like me which is much different albeit perhaps slightly overlapping.

i like appreciating different kinds of intelligence. to me an intelligent person is anyone who is honest. but sometimes i misinterpret cues.

 

[Doob]

most of the good students stand out loudly and don't care about hiding IMO

I don't think that being the better student equals being the more intelligent one. What you see is not always what's there and only because you don't see something doesn't mean it's not there.

In my lectures there are people who never say a word although they know the answers but have a very deep understanding of the subject and ace their exams and there are people who look like the perfect student who knows it all, answers the questions, talks to the prof and talks about the additional stuff he or she is doing and then when you talk to him/her you realise that it's all smoke and mirrors. Or students who are more intelligent and grasp things more easily but don't care that much for exams and don't put in the effort and then people think they are less intelligent than they are.

There are many very intelligent people who doubt themselves and therefor don't say anything or don't need others to know how clever they are because it's enough that they know or don't like attention or can't be bothered or...

 

[The Void]

I fail to see intelligence in myself.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

There is nothing so grand in intelligence to measure by it.
You either understand one another or not, you either are willing to understand or not, you either have the capacity to understand or not.

 

[WALKYRIA]

There are many very intelligent people who doubt themselves and therefor don't say anything or don't need others to know how clever they are because it's enough that they know or don't like attention or can't be bothered or...

Thank you but it's really no great news... I'm like that.
Also it depends from the major; since different kind of intellligent are dominating different kind of university programs.

I fail to see intelligence in myself.

I do too.. I'm realizing that my isolation and aloofness is a major reason. I pretty much had a personalized understanding of what intellect is. Trouble is when I have to confront my personal, intuitive understanding of intellect with the immature definitions given by boring humans.( young souls= pretty much synonym with sensors!!).



But really, we should talk about the soul ages... coz it seem to be able to depict what I feel. I'm an old soul like most INTPs, it means I don't care about being right, arguing, fighting or any obvious display of "ego", being rich, being considered as smart, except when I'm chameleoning a younger soul... All we care about is living in our little world, status quo, live and let live.
It seems that more competitive people tend to be less wiser and have a less mature soul . That can be an issue, especially in communication, in exchange and in appreciation of mutual intellect , strength and depth.

What do you think about the soul ages: I personally always felt like old tired boy.
I see plenty of obviously-- alleged-- smart people, around me... OBVIOUSLY... But it doesn't amaze me. No depth. I always have that feeling that If I worked as hard as them, I'll attain the result.( Which is of course not true !). And ultimately, I don't care about the result anyway lol..


What you think about tha esoteric bullshit concepts, such of soul ages?

There is nothing so grand in intelligence to measure by it.
You either understand one another or not, you either are willing to understand or not, you either have the capacity to understand or not.

Maybe...

 

[OrcaNerd]

Thanx for your input:
creativity, high confusion tolerance and analytic reasoning... Yeah, all NTs have that, logically. And we all know that personality is not consistently associated with intellect, so...etc

Firstly, you're welcome and thanks for the interesting thread. Secondly, I would ask you to consider "materialistic preconceived notions." Thirdly, I apologize for the long post.

"Materialistic Preconceived Notions"
We live in a society where each abled person must find a job to survive. Most people work for businesses. It is in a business's best interest to run smoothly, efficiently and cost effectively. Per MBTI, this means businesses run on logic. This leads to a demand for NTs in the work environment. Because companies want NTs, they advertise for NTs and, because each person must find an occupation, everyone is seeing these advertisements. The particular problems businesses face are ones that require detached problem solving, objective data and justice.

This implants in society's mind the idea that objective data, detachment and justice are the ONLY ways to be logical and rational. Clearly, logic and rationale are the only ways to be a benefit, to give something back to society. Society is materialistic and if it cannot see the results of your efforts, it will think you made no effort. We value the inventor of the car, the computer, steel, etc; they've provided a material item everyone has the potential to enjoy. As for those who tried to invent these and other items....well, f they were actually intelligent, they would have done it first!

Society doesn't value philosophy, traditions, emotions, or entertainment as much. Even though actors and musicians are famous and wealthy, they are expendable; very few will be more than a flash in the pan.

This is all to say, I think there is a preconceived notion, at least in America, where I live, that intelligence is strictly NT. It also only values big things. We all know about the inventor of the car, but not curly fries. Go big or go home. All else is trivial and illogical. But is it really?

We think if we are not inventing, building robots, curing cancer, launching rockets or some other big fad that we are not solving problems. Every person faces a problem to be solved every day. It may be how to help a grandmother deal with the frustration of new dependence on others for her own safety. It may be to find an efficient route between places to run errands. It might be making an elderly dog comfortable. They are valuable, personal problems, but are no less important to those dealing with them.


Intelligence and Personality: The Main Point
I see creativity, analytical thinking, confusion tolerance, etc. not as personality traits, but methods of thought, specifically intelligent thought. How this method is used is where personality comes in. Intelligence is taking in information and applying it. How that information is taken in (N/S) and how the application is made (T/F) don't really effect the basic process or its requirements.

I think one issue is the MBTI's definition of logic as "objective data." Logic is a method of valid reasoning not restricted to objective data. If I am cold, is it illogical to put on a jacket or should I consult my thermostat first? Subjective is more useful here. There is something to be said for having "the sense to get out of the rain."

Here's a list of examples:

I would think someone who observed birds eating seeds and then not being able to tell you what birds eat as stupid. Also, I would think someone who noticed a friend only wears bright colors would be stupid to give that friend a black shirt. T and F fell short.

Society values production, but are Js more intelligent than Ps? I doubt it. My ESTJ father is always saying things like, "If he's so smart, why didn't he DO anything? Why isn't he the head CEO of Duke Energy?" "Psh! SHE'S not intelligent, she's a drug addict!" Intelligence doesn't always yield greatness, wise actions...or any action.

Is someone, say an ISFP, creating something useless, but pretty, really less creative than someone, say an INTJ, making something useful? Again, I think society's values say, "Well, duh!" but reality does not.

Is someone (ESFJ) who analyzes feelings to see from another's point of view and resolve/avoid a conflict not engaging in analytical thinking and problem solving?

As an INTP, I get confused by those with strong emotional reactions and often just sort stare at the person. Is that not low confusion tolerance?

Consider a society that values tradition, strong family ties, people skills and other, more "feeling" oriented values. They would still analyze a problem, consider all known information and apply it to find a solution. Just because they are taking in spiritual well being, social conflict, etc. into account doesn't mean they don't logically solve the issue at hand.

A discouraged employee isn't able to keep up with work flow. 2 other employees, ESFP and ENTJ, analyze the situation to come up with a solution. One solution is to slow the work flow, the other to offer encouragement and emotional support. Both are reasonable and could work. Both required analysis and critical thinking to develop the solution.



I hope that makes sense.

 

[Doob]

Thank you but it's really no great news... I'm like that.
Also it depends from the major; since different kind of intellligent are dominating different kind of university programs.

So why aren't you able to see intelligence in other people then? Same as other people might think you are less intelligent than you are based on what they see on the surface you seem to think that other people are less intelligent than they are based on what you see on the surface.

Oh and I personally don't think that overestimating their abilities is necessarily typical for INTPs.