INTPs and secrecy/lies.

[Cheeseumpuffs]

Ok, so I've been kind of wondering how other INTPs act in regards to secrecy and lies.

Not when someone lies to you, but when do you find it appropriate to lie? Do you find yourself lying for a stupid reason or no reason at all? How attached are you to secrecy and keeping things secret?

I feel like I have a small issue with keeping secrets because I will lie about very small maybe even irrelevant things just because I don't want them to know or I don't want to deal with talking about it. This kind of gets to the point where I automatically lie about something unless I have decided in advance that I want to talk about it. Also the secrecy thing is kind of out of control. Whenever I'm going somewhere, even just walking around the house, I have this weird habit of not wanting to be seen or heard. Like I feel that if I can get from point A to point B without being noticed I've "won" somehow. I also have this feeling that people just want to mess with my life so I will hide parts of my life from family and such. And as part of this I have the opinion that my room is some kind of sacred place and it always pisses me off when someone comes in without asking or being invited.

Any of my fellow INTPs have these issues? Is this normal for an INTP or do I have problems?

 

[Dimensional Transition]

I don't really have those issues. I do like sneaking into the house without being noticed though, feels like I've "won" as well. It's just a fun game.

For the rest... I'm a really open guy. I share a lot of stuff that's on my mind, things I do... If you're not ashamed of anything, nobody will be able to make fun of you, and people will feel comfortable around you because it means you're also open to anything else anybody wants to share. When people have problems at home or so, they often come to me to tell me their story because they know I won't make fun of them and keep it secret if they want to, and I will try to provide some help and a listening ear.

 

[Zionoxis]

There are parts I hide from others. I generally do not lie all that often, I simply never say certain things.

 

[Ejno]

I totally agree with the OP, especially with the points about generally preferring not to be seen or heard and the bedroom being somewhat of a sacred place. I too get quite annoyed when my space has been invaded without prior consent. Furthermore, does anyone else dislike having to yell or raise their voice? For example, my flatmates often call out to me from downstairs when dinner is ready and I refuse to respond by yelling back they accuse me of ignoring them by not responding but for me it is simply a matter of not wanting to be noisy.

 

[xbox]

Ok, so I've been kind of wondering how other INTPs act in regards to secrecy and lies.

Not when someone lies to you, but when do you find it appropriate to lie? Do you find yourself lying for a stupid reason or no reason at all? How attached are you to secrecy and keeping things secret?

I feel like I have a small issue with keeping secrets because I will lie about very small maybe even irrelevant things just because I don't want them to know or I don't want to deal with talking about it. This kind of gets to the point where I automatically lie about something unless I have decided in advance that I want to talk about it. Also the secrecy thing is kind of out of control. Whenever I'm going somewhere, even just walking around the house, I have this weird habit of not wanting to be seen or heard. Like I feel that if I can get from point A to point B without being noticed I've "won" somehow. I also have this feeling that people just want to mess with my life so I will hide parts of my life from family and such. And as part of this I have the opinion that my room is some kind of sacred place and it always pisses me off when someone comes in without asking or being invited.

Any of my fellow INTPs have these issues? Is this normal for an INTP or do I have problems?

In the past, I have lied to keep the peace between my ESFJ father and I. It had to do with taking engineering classes vs. medical related classes. He wants me to be a doctor, I want to be an engineer. He gets so emotionally stressed and freaks out every time I mention my interests. He has had cancer 4 times (relapses) and a couple of heart surgeries, and I just learned he might be getting another relapse. So yes, I have lied about taking a certain course related to medicine. I hate medicine, and I love engineering. I visually saw how distressed he became over it, and I didn't talk about it anymore. I don't want stress to trigger another health issue in him.

I am guessing an INTP lies when they see that the truth may get them nowhere useful, even if lying is morally wrong, it may become reasonable in certain circumstances. I have probably worded this sentence wrong, but I found lying to be more appropriate in those circumstances. He just failed to understand and accept my intellectual interests, and I do not wish to anger my father anymore, even though I dislike his approach towards me.

Besides that, I am a very secretive person. I have the ability to evaluate a person's motive, and give information to them/keep information from them accordingly. Lying may also take place in this type of situation. If I cant stand the person, I probably don't even care. People sometimes say "I sense walls while talking to you". I don't give a shit. Usually those people who said that statement, had terrible motives to begin with.

Also I value my introvertedness. People value their extrovertedness. Thats cool, until they look down on me because of it. This has caused me to take pride in my introvertedness.

 

[Vrecknidj]

Sadly, it will be too easy for this thread to diverge into an argument about what it means to lie.

So, I'm going to try to avoid that.

I do sometimes intentionally deceive others. Sometimes it's relevant and important. For example, in some of my occupations I work with young children. If I'm having a conversation with an adult and then a child walks in, catches part of the conversation and asks what we're talking about, I'm happy with "None of your business," but sometimes there are other ways to steer that encounter so that it doesn't feel as blunt as "None of your business," but has the same effect as diverting the child away from the conversation.

I find that it's handy to lie when playing poker, or being a DM.

I sometimes withhold information from people who don't need it.

I also work at jobs that require confidentiality. I have NDAs with more than one company. If someone asks me something about some topic in a field where I have an NDA, I find ways to politely steer the conversation away from the issue at hand. I'm not lying, but I'm also not answering questions.

As far as people "messing with" one another or me, that's just part of life. Lots of other people follow very foreign-to-me personal codes, and I often don't like those codes. But, I usually can find a way to put up with, ignore, or dismiss them.

I have some friends, for instance, who really like to play practical jokes on each other. They've learned to exclude me from that because I don't play along.

Dave

 

[Roni]

When do you find it appropriate to lie? Do you find yourself lying for a stupid reason or no reason at all?

The only lies I tell are the extravagent ones required for some jokes. Even then I expect it to be obvious I'm not telling the truth and if someone takes me seriously I feel compelled to point out I'm only joking.
Otherwise, I'm honest to a fault. I can't lie even when it is appropriate. This includes lying to myself - it's a struggle to "look on the bright side" when I know there's an equally valid dark side to consider. I couldn't even tell my kids there was a santa - I had to rely on other relatives to set up that lie and then I just played along (my kids, being smart cookies who had their mother well pegged, got excellent mileage from this by getting me to admit 'santa only brings gifts to kids who believe in him', committing me to maintaining the charade for as long as they did; they then refused to deny the existence of santa until they were about 18!)
I sometimes explain this as "I value honesty" which sounds a bit like a moral stance. I think it goes deeper than that (unless morality is more rigid than I think) - it's more like a vital need. It's disappointing enough knowing that even if I lived a thousand years and every single thing I heard or read was 100% accurate I still wouldn't have enough information to fully understand the universe - the mass of misinformation between me and 'the absolute truth' frequently distresses me. Adding my own lies to the mess is unthinkable.

That said, there remains an enormous safety zone between honesty and openness.

How attached are you to secrecy and keeping things secret?

Very attached. I treasure my privacy.
Other people's privacy too. In my job I have access to a great deal of sensitive information that is protected by law - I could go to prison for releasing it even if I no longer worked there. It's become second nature to me to check if I'm allowed to answer a question even before I've checked if I know the answer.
At work I'd deny the request with a polite "I'm sorry, that information is protected" which is not a lie - secret kept, honesty maintained.
In my private life I do the same, denying a request about someone else with "I couldn't tell you if I knew, I need to honour their confidence" - secret kept, honesty maintained.
If the question is about me I still need to check if I want that person to know. Depending on how important they were to me they might get "I'm still processing it and I can't talk yet" or "I don't think it's any of your business" or anything in between. Whatever I say will be honest even if they take offense at it. People who don't appreciate my honesty get filed under 'not worth knowing' pretty quickly. That doesn't happen often - most people seem to appreciate knowing where they stand.
I rarely have a situation where the only answer I can give is dishonest. Even then I simply say nothing - secrets kept, honesty maintained.
Privacy vs Honesty is not an issue for me.

This is an issue-

And as part of this I have the opinion that my room is some kind of sacred place and it always pisses me off when someone comes in without asking or being invited.

An introvert living with others needs their own sacred place. There's absolutely nothing wrong with your stance here. Maybe you need to work on asserting it more effectively?
I think I've taken it too far myself though. I've lived alone for over 6 years now. It seems every year I get a little more protective of my space. This doesn't really make sense, since living alone should afford me all the space an introvert could possibly need. I haven't had anyone over for dinner etc for years. No biggy I guess. But now it's getting to the point where I actually get anxious at the thought of allowing tradesmen in for essential repairs. That's an issue. It's currently very high on my 'stuff I need to fix about myself' list.
You, just wanting people to stay out of your stuff, have nothing to worry about.


*edit - oh snap! Also, what Dave said.

 

[Cheeseumpuffs]

Furthermore, does anyone else dislike having to yell or raise their voice? For example, my flatmates often call out to me from downstairs when dinner is ready and I refuse to respond by yelling back they accuse me of ignoring them by not responding but for me it is simply a matter of not wanting to be noisy.

No I don't seem to have that problem. In fact, I prefer to remain in my room and yell back my answer. Because if someone were to ask me quietly they'd have to come to my doorway which is an extension of my room... I guess this kind of goes back to what Roni said about becoming more protective of space because I get (what's the word?.... I don't know, I guess) anxious(?) when people even walk through the hallway outside my room.

In the past, I have lied to keep the peace between my ESFJ father and I . . . an INTP lies when they see that the truth may get them nowhere useful, even if lying is morally wrong . . . Also I value my introvertedness. People value their extrovertedness. Thats cool, until they look down on me because of it. This has caused me to take pride in my introvertedness.

I do the same thing with my dad, who I suspect to be an ESFJ as well. I also do the lying when the truth is useless but by some convoluted logic I find that wasting time and energy telling the truth is less beneficial than replying with a shorter not-quite-as-true answer. I say not-quite-as-true because my 'lies' aren't usually full lies but rather a slightly distorted version of the truth (think Obi-Wan "certain point of view"). I can relate to the taking pride in introversion, too. I think that is a part of the common INTP theme of "social rebellion," especially when it gets more pronounced when others look down on it.

I'm honest to a fault. I can't lie even when it is appropriate. This includes lying to myself . . . the mass of misinformation between me and 'the absolute truth' frequently distresses me. Adding my own lies to the mess is unthinkable . . . Privacy vs Honesty is not an issue for me.

I get how one can be honest to a fault. Even I, with all my talk of lying even for stupid little things, have this issue. If there is something that needs honesty I will say my honest opinion without a second thought. I think this my have something to do with, as you said, the "absolute truth." I guess when I find it appropriate to lie is when I don't feel that the lie conflicts with this absolute truth... And the last part about Privacy vs. Honesty not being an issue. Can you give me some pointers? Because I find it hard to maintain my privacy without some sort of distortion of truth. Usually when asked a question that I have no wish to answer it takes me a while to come up with the answer I want to give. This leaves the asker waiting and I then throw out the quickest answer that comes to mind.

All in all, thank you guys for your input. I feel like I at least understand everything a little better. Acceptance that I'm a slightly pathological liar might come a little later.

 

[GYX_Kid]

I wouldn't really have any secrets, unless there was something I absolutely had to hide...
Most of the time I just don't feel it necessary to display certain information about myself.

Then people eventually get surprised/confused about assumptions/get into a predicament.
Also adds to the surprise that all my arm muscle is in the upper part which isn't readily visible, so punches could hurt a lot. I really really need to violently surprise someone who thinks they can take advantage of my chillness. This urge eats away at me every day. That type of awesomeness is something I should be entitled to
no

 

[PapyrusAirplanes]

Lying and secrecy come so naturally it's almost frightening. About homework, books you're reading, people and what you think of them, what you're doing tonight, and (my personal favorite) pretending you're very busy or not listening or asleep... so people will leave you alone or so you can eavesdrop.

Lying because you just don't want to explain something is quite valid. If we had to explain to nosey people everything that goes on in our minds, we would never have time for anything else.

Secrecy is so enticing. I think that half the reason I keep a journal is just because it feels secretive. Not to mention that I record things in an alphabetical code... which drives my mother up a wall. Back in ninth grade she found one of my journals while I was at camp, actually cracked one of the codes and decoded entire journal entries. Those were dark times. The codes have become more complex since then.

When we're young we're taught that lying and keeping secrets are inappropriate behaviors. But eventually you get over the fact that people don't like it, you get better and cleaner at hiding it, and can just enjoy it.

 

[Cheeseumpuffs]

Lying and secrecy come so naturally it's almost frightening. About homework, books you're reading, people and what you think of them, what you're doing tonight, and (my personal favorite) pretending you're very busy or not listening or asleep... so people will leave you alone or so you can eavesdrop.

Shit, you hit the nail right on the head. "You finish your homework?" "Yeah, it's all done." (No it isn't). "Did you do the reading?" "Yeah but I skimmed a little and some parts were kind of confusing." (Either I didn't read or I used sparknotes). "You wanna hang out?" "I can't I'm busy." (Spends night alone at home). And the last part about eavesdropping. i think eavesdropping goes back once again to the "game" of being undetected and if you can listen in on a conversation without them knowing, then you've "won".....

 

[Roni]

And the last part about Privacy vs. Honesty not being an issue. Can you give me some pointers? Because I find it hard to maintain my privacy without some sort of distortion of truth.

No. I don't think I should.
What I call "honesty" many others have called "lack of social skills" and this is a fair assessment.
If you have social skills that I lack you should run with that.

 

[xbox]

Shit, you hit the nail right on the head. "You finish your homework?" "Yeah, it's all done." (No it isn't). "Did you do the reading?" "Yeah but I skimmed a little and some parts were kind of confusing." (Either I didn't read or I used sparknotes). "You wanna hang out?" "I can't I'm busy." (Spends night alone at home). And the last part about eavesdropping. i think eavesdropping goes back once again to the "game" of being undetected and if you can listen in on a conversation without them knowing, then you've "won".....

 

[Dimensional Transition]

On a side note... I love eavesdropping. I'm always listening to conversations in the train, in class, etc... You hear some really interesting/hilarious stuff.

"Yo, yo, yo, yo bro?"
-"Yeah?"
"I'm going to the mall man yo you wanna come or what?"
-"I don't know man, I don't know, what dey got at the mall? Do they have backpacks?"
"Shit man they got all kinds of shit. Backpacks, tees, jackas, pants... Yeah, also backpacks man... backpacks."
-"Aight I'm in man"

"YOU WON'T BELIEVE ALL THE NASTY SHIT THEY DID!"
-"Whaaa? Nooo? Fo' realll?"
"FINGERING, BJ'S, EATING OUT, SO NASTY"
-"EWWWWW"

(I seriously heard those exact conversations)

 

[Cheeseumpuffs]

You hear some really interesting/hilarious stuff.

"Yo man, you ever play World of Warcraft?'
"Nah, man."
"Man, that shit's gansta."

 

[Iuanes]

I lie or just don't say or ignore people if they ask me a question about something that might keep my little worlds from blurring into each other. I like to keep them separated, or sometimes I know answering the question truthfully will lead into a whole other set of questions and I don't want to bother with them. And then people wonder, sometimes, why you don't tell them things. It's because if you give a mouse a cookie...

On the whole though, I lie or keep secret really stupid, irrelevant things. It wouldn't at all be bad if people knew, but sometimes I feel I do some weird or odd things,and I don't want to go through it all with other people.

I generally don't like people coming into my room. Not because its sacred but because its my room. I don't know, some people want to be nosy or just barge in likes it nothing, but I would always make sure the person is comfortable with it, if I'm going into theirs.