Mature people are actually dumber?

[WALKYRIA]

Why people do not become wiser, smarter, deeper and more balanced with age( as theory predict it !) ? I'm sometimes amazed to see how older people act dumb and go crazy or act childish-likely sometimes.. just like us youngsters... I find it crazy...
I don't think that people of my type( INTPs) are the only people to not suffer from this burden; Also I don't think we are the sole type to be actively focused on personal growth... Therefore I wonder if personal growth(intellectual, humane, spiritual, emotional,holistic internal growth..) is a real thing or if it is nothing but a plain fallacy of the mind lol.( mind projection fallacy= thinking that the way we see the world reflects the way the world really is !)

Help me solve this equation: why older people do not necessarily become better people?

Mind projection fallacy..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_projection_fallacy

 

[paradoxparadigm7]

For real growth (individuation, differentiation, transcendence etc...) to occur, you have to DO (not just think about) something that's usually scary and that takes courage. You have to ask yourself hard questions and own your dark side. How many people want to do that? With maturation, you have more opportunities that urge you forward (crisis situations usually) but it's the rare person who view these times of crisis as opportunities and instead continues to avoid.

Is growth real? I'd say it's real to the person whose had an actual experience of growth. A very subjective experience that one can describe but not fully communicate. As a subjective experience, other's are bared from it but...You can get a glimpse through indirect evidence meaning the "fruits" of the transcendent person.

 

[Jennywocky]

It's not too complicated.

Age is merely correlated to wisdom, it does not necessitate wisdom.

Essentially, "age" leads to "more experiences" leads to "more opportunities to change and grow and better oneself" -- i.e., to learn and to expand one's awareness of the world and of others. But this is not guaranteed. Those who are unwilling to change, grow, or expand one's awareness will accumulate the biological years without accumulated the greater awareness that age offers.

People all start at different places as well. Some are simply more open to change and more flexible, and some also start in situations that are more challenging vs situations that foster no necessary evaluation and growth.

This means that, while age can bring maturation, some younger people can be more mature (depending on their opportunities + investment in the growth process) than some very chronologically old adults who have not been willing to grow or change and who naturally shut new awareness out.

Since change can be unsettling and even frightening (due to the ambiguities), people need courage to embrace it.

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

It all has to do with how nurturing your environment is.
If you are rotting alive in an old folks home and are neglected and patronized,
having no control over your "inmates", spending your days on a steady diet of TV and medication, would you keep up to your standards?

 

[WALKYRIA]

For real growth (individuation, differentiation, transcendence etc...) to occur, you have to DO (not just think about) something that's usually scary and that takes courage

This sounds true, but is it really true ? Have you tested it?
Can you people define personal growth? Personally, Before MBTI I thought I could define it easily.. but then realized that there were many ways to grow depending on ones view of the world(= MBTI type)... The finding of the many MBTI types kinda shook my beliefs systems. I used to think that my way of seeing things was the perfect way... and tended to judge people harshly accordingly to my standards("the objective standards"). So perhaps, we might start by stating that personal growth is a 100% subjective matter ? The problem with MBTI is that it considers without proof, that every type is equal. I find it to be a very idealistic NF like -- thus possibly divergent from truth- but since truth is relative, who cares... -- way of seeing things and judging people. We could also question the objectivity of MBTI, since its roots are NF rotten..
We should also define maturity and maturation. Which standards do we use to judge if someone is mature ? Kinda confused since there is no objectivity in there...


Besides the problem of definition( which is a big problem for me since I cannot discuss of something unless I know its whole components!) of personal growth and maturation-- which I consider to be more of an N thing..(since personal growth is a construction of the mind, an abstract matters, a psychosis !)-- I wholeheartedly agree with you and your conclusion: mental growth is a subjective process that requires time( thus age factor) and willingness to change( thus implies that SJ people do not grow !).

Since change can be unsettling and even frightening (due to the ambiguities), people need courage to embrace it.

Thanks for your insight Jenny. I guess that's the kind of things that donot seem complicated for a 40 something person... but for me(20 something), I find it curious because it defies my initial beliefs( That's why I tend to automatically respect and defer to older or more experienced people !) . I always believed that: young people were dumb in life matters( because of no experience of life!)and old people were necessarily wiser and more intelligent.Now I'm realizing that it's more of a mind projection fallacy than a reality, a fact. It seems that I have the same mind projection fallacy about many other things such as girls and the way they function...(same as many other guys I guess !).
I used to think that older people acting dumb or saying inconsiderate or illogical things were doing it on purpose for some reasons I couldn't understand in childhood, I wasn't actually able to imagine they never acquired certain basics( or things I considered basic !)... Therefore I started acting like them to find out the hows and the whys of such behavioral or social quirks. I could not understand why they believed in a god( therefore I thought I was too dumb to understand what god really is !) for example, why they insisted every year for boring birthday parties, why they wanted me to go to school...etc

I'm sometimes amazed by the unbiased-ness of kids also; they don't care about god before older people colonize their virgin minds... they don't care about social bullshit... They just follow their hearts and do what they mind to do. I admire kids because they are potentially the most objective beings out there !


SO in resume, you define the ingredients of growth to be: not only time(age) but also experience, circumstances, and the willingness to change.

Orite, thanks for your insights people...




I'll just add some insights from Dabrowski as well, as you all know it, He thinks that personal growth is the product of consecutive disintegration and reintegration of worldview... So basically he thinks that positive disintegration is not possible for everybody and requires three things: innate ability(intelllect), overexcitabilities and a third magic factor lol.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Disintegration

 

[WALKYRIA]

It all has to do with how nurturing your environment is.
If you are rotting alive in an old folks home and are neglected and patronized,
having no control over your "inmates", spending your days on a steady diet of TV and medication, would you keep up to your standards?

True... I'm actually working with elderly people in a old folks home... and really it saddens me to see this ancient lawyers, architects, economists etc... degrade themselves. So lemme see, you think that personal growth stops when one arrives in an old folks home? Why would that be? Is ones personal growth dependent on ones environment and on the possible prospects for influence on people? without people, no growth?

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

True... I'm actually working with elderly people in a old folks home... and really it saddens me to see this ancient lawyers, architects, economists etc... degrade themselves. So lemme see, you think that personal growth stops when one arrives in an old folks home? Why would that be? Is ones personal growth dependent on ones environment and on the possible prospects for influence on people? without people, no growth?

I was just saying that our archetype of the old wise man stems from the ancient traditions.
Whether that be the ancient arcane systems of religion or that of ancient greek philosophers is yet to be decided.
I was trying to convey to you that a plant can only grow if it is provided the proper nutrition.
In the human world that also includes the minds that one interacts with in the real world environment.
A world of fools can't nourish a wise man.
You can apply the allegory to the school system, if you dare.
You can apply it to the work environment, if you dare.
You can grow to a certain stage on your own, like the apple seed.
But at some point your growth becomes dependent on external factors.
No man is an island.
And an island's habitat is dependent on the fruits washed ashore.
If all that which is washed ashore is plastic bottles and severed nets,
then your island is prone to become a wasteland, is it not?

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

In simplicity, you take maturity as an average value assigned to wise people. Then when by a chance you become more mature and you reflect upon your perceived maturity, you tend to raise the level of maturity beyond your previous standard and view others (that still measure to the less) as immature.

Other thing is you assume that wisdom comes with age and not with actions, experiences and basing actions on previous experiences.

Whole wisdom thing is a fallacy, because you consider some things more and some less wise. Maybe those tired people that watch tv and "degrade" just found their way of least resistance in life? Maybe for them it is a perfect way of existing and you are here to tell them otherwise?

If we begin to measure by our standards of wisdom then we find many to be so much more unwise and so much more different. By this standard we can say, anyone can actually be dumber than you, depending on their personal circumstances and past events.

 

[Milo]

I think the dumbest people are the ones who take the world too seriously because their seriousness stems from a deep embedded fear of something that they allow themselves to be controlled by--and therefore lessening their free will while letting anxiety and despair reek havoc on their minds.

Fools!!!! Sentimental Dicks!! Walking contradictions!!! Note the non-seriousness and the comedic relief balanced with a solid explanation as to not offend THOSE PEOPLE WHO GET SO OFFENDED AND RUIN ALL THE FUN!!!

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

Fools!!!! Sentimental Dicks!! Walking contradictions!!!

Shakespeare?

 

[Milo]

Shakespeare?

Shakespeare isn't a person, it's a state of mind!

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

Okay, given that: is it still true?

 

[Milo]

No, I made that up myself--but what if I am a reincarnation of Shakespeare in some way? What if, man? What if?

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

That's what i said.
A frivolous Shakespeare of the 21st century!

 

[Milo]

Shakespeare and Socrates with a hint of Diogenes!

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

Good mixture!

 

[Milo]

I'm a philosophical missionary drawing your interest in with my decorated words--taking and directing your convictions into the depths of my intricate persuasion to lead you a world of your desires.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

Amazing mirrorman you are? And well versed.

 

[Jennywocky]

This sounds true, but is it really true ? Have you tested it?

I've experienced it myself, seen it happen in others, and seen others who fail to step up stagnate instead. Pretty much anything I've offered here is experiential, not theoretical.

Can you people define personal growth? Personally, Before MBTI I thought I could define it easily.. but then realized that there were many ways to grow depending on ones view of the world(= MBTI type)... The finding of the many MBTI types kinda shook my beliefs systems. I used to think that my way of seeing things was the perfect way... and tended to judge people harshly accordingly to my standards("the objective standards"). So perhaps, we might start by stating that personal growth is a 100% subjective matter ?

I think mental health and stability are pretty uniform, actually, regardless of type. And that's what I'm talking about. It doesn't matter what type you are, you're looking for actual stability and contentment, which includes an acceptance of your actual place in the world, the fact that you are mortal and going to die some day, etc. All the aspects of being human. you look at people dying of cancer and the ones that come to terms with it, and it doesn't matter what type they are, they will still exude the same type of vibe.

Now, if you are talking about a particular person achieving their potential? Well, yes, they'll look different because they have different strengths and weaknesses. But I think the "maturity" is uniform, even if the details are different.

The problem with MBTI is that it considers without proof, that every type is equal. I find it to be a very idealistic NF like -- thus possibly divergent from truth- but since truth is relative, who cares... -- way of seeing things and judging people. We could also question the objectivity of MBTI, since its roots are NF rotten. We should also define maturity and maturation. Which standards do we use to judge if someone is mature ? Kinda confused since there is no objectivity in there...

i've offered some basic principles above. How would you define it? I mean, why not ante up here, instead of just picking and asking questions, without providing any answers of your own?

I mean, I'm speaking from the perspective of someone older, who has dealt with immature parents when I was young (which means to me they were like kids -- absorbed in their own problems and unable to focus on the problems of others and play a parental role in the lives of their kids), and then struggling with my own crap leftover from childhood when I was trying to raise my own kids; and then watching friends and family struggling with crap and seeing who was brave enough to be honest about their own failings and who wasn't.

That's what I typically mean by "growth." Either you're honest about your own shit, or you're dishonest; and if you're dishonest, you can't make any progress. And when you're dishonest, you can't make progress and get better because you're blind to your shortcomings -- you go in circles and become absorbed in the negative spiral and never escape from it because you're flying blind. I watched my own dad basically fall into that trap for the last 40 years of his life and he never escaped.

Besides the problem of definition( which is a big problem for me since I cannot discuss of something unless I know its whole components!) of personal growth and maturation-- which I consider to be more of an N thing..(since personal growth is a construction of the mind, an abstract matters, a psychosis !)--

I think N's find it easier, naturally, to reduce it to patterns and general principles; S's understand it as well, but they tend to talk and think about it in concretes.

I wholeheartedly agree with you and your conclusion: mental growth is a subjective process that requires time( thus age factor) and willingness to change( thus implies that SJ people do not grow !).

Meh. I think they might have some trouble if they're looking to rules and external structures to 'make them good people' -- but they're still very capable of understanding when they are unhappy/malcontent.

Thanks for your insight Jenny. I guess that's the kind of things that donot seem complicated for a 40 something person... but for me(20 something), I find it curious because it defies my initial beliefs( That's why I tend to automatically respect and defer to older or more experienced people !) .

Well, I think it's good to consider information in light of experience, but at the same time you still need to challenge it just to test it. If an older person is warped in some way or has not been courageous enough to challenge their own perceptions, then they will try to pass bad perceptions and conclusions to you.

I always believed that: young people were dumb in life matters( because of no experience of life!)and old people were necessarily wiser and more intelligent.Now I'm realizing that it's more of a mind projection fallacy than a reality, a fact. It seems that I have the same mind projection fallacy about many other things such as girls and the way they function...(same as many other guys I guess !).

Relationships and marriage does give you a lot of perspective about the other gender as well as about relationship dynamics. I did a lot of things that didn't work, which taught more in some ways than things that did work. I know I also got a lot of crap out of my system, I no longer care to fight about a lot of the dumb initial things I used to fight about it. There's some flexibility that is fostered, and how to compromise constructively, etc.

I used to think that older people acting dumb or saying inconsiderate or illogical things were doing it on purpose for some reasons I couldn't understand in childhood, I wasn't actually able to imagine they never acquired certain basics( or things I considered basic !)... Therefore I started acting like them to find out the hows and the whys of such behavioral or social quirks. I could not understand why they believed in a god( therefore I thought I was too dumb to understand what god really is !) for example, why they insisted every year for boring birthday parties, why they wanted me to go to school...etc

Well, again, there's some stuff I still think is stupid; but I think there are things that long-term seem beneficial. I also appreciate more "family building" stuff than I used to before building my own family. repeated rituals and traditions are actually useful, if you're not calcified within them and can change them when they aren't working.

The "god" thing is different, since there are so many ways to evaluate god. There are certain approaches to god I can respect even if i disagree with the conclusions, and other approaches I don't respect. it comes down, again, to honesty for me. Some who admits they are just choosing to believe because their values are comparable have a more mature outlook than someone who has to lie about things in life and the world to justify their beliefs.

I'm sometimes amazed by the unbiased-ness of kids also; they don't care about god before older people colonize their virgin minds... they don't care about social bullshit... They just follow their hearts and do what they mind to do. I admire kids because they are potentially the most objective beings out there !

Well, I think kids are also the most self-absorbed in some ways, but I agree too like you say that kids speak their minds and have the closest connection between desire and action. Kids have to learn to protect and hide themselves and filter things.

I'll just add some insights from Dabrowski as well, as you all know it, He thinks that personal growth is the product of consecutive disintegration and reintegration of worldview... So basically he thinks that positive disintegration is not possible for everybody and requires three things: innate ability(intelllect), overexcitabilities and a third magic factor lol.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Disintegration

Yeah, I don't like to be elitist by saying certain people can't grow, but I do think some people find growth easier because they possess the capacity, drive, and even NEED to grow. I agree with Dabrowski in that crap/adversity are potential growth experiences and that often we look worse by social standards before we look better. Growth is messy and painful.

Sorry these comments are not necessarily thorough in their wording, I'm actually out gaming right now (Pathfinder) and the GM yelled at me for "FaceBooking" during play. (I said, "I'm not on FaceBook!' bwa ha ha)

 

[Milo]

Amazing mirrorman you are? And well versed.

Words words words words, man. Mirror man? More like leader of the self-righteous narcissist club.

 

[Milo]

Oh, and I have no idea what a mirror man is... Haha

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

Words words words words, man. Mirror man? More like leader of the self-righteous narcissist club.

That's what I meant, and you described it well. Don't worry I am a repository of uncoined terms. You can borrow mirroman if you will .

 

[Milo]

That's what I meant, and you described it well. Don't worry I am a repository of uncoined terms. You can borrow mirroman if you will .

I think I shall! Words have a special kind of power that few truly appreciate.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

It should be expected, given the subjective nature of reality, that no one is immune from the projection fallacy. Realizing the meaning of the sentence I just typed negates the fallacy.

It doesn't happen ubiquitously with age, but it does happen with time. Let's take a piece of it and stick it under a microscope: The Flynn Effect. It should be expected that the Flynn Effect is the sum of its parts, no? The behavior of the flock, although different from the behavior of the birds that compose it, depends on its component parts.

I think what you're getting at is an aspect of self-actualization, no? So let's look at self-actualization in the flock vs the bird and find a general rule. On an individual basis this is determined by intrinsic factors related to perception; cognitive functions are probably the conception of this that's easiest to understand. Assume that N-doms are more perceptive than T/F-doms, and assign a number to it. N-doms are 1, T-doms are 0.5.

There are two possibilities for an increase at the flock level:

1. N-doms begin to outnumber their peers and occupy an increasingly greater proportion of the population. - But this isn't true. We know that N-doms are in fact a minority and have been a minority during most of the time period to which the empirical validity of the Flynn Effect applies. Basically: Nerds don't get laid.

2. What the Flynn Effect measures, intelligence, isn't restricted to the individual level. Information/knowledge is shared. Going back to our number assignations, this could mean that the actual numbers don't matter, but the differences between individuals remain the same because the rate of increase is ubiquitous. 1*125% is still twice of 0.5*125%.

If 2, then yes, it's a real thing. It's just not readily distinguishable. Just extend the Flynn Effect to multiple intelligences.

Welcome to Game Theory! I'll be your guide.

This sounds true, but is it really true ?

I'll just add some insights from Dabrowski as well, as you all know it, He thinks that personal growth is the product of consecutive disintegration and reintegration of worldview... So basically he thinks that positive disintegration is not possible for everybody and requires three things: innate ability(intelllect), overexcitabilities and a third magic factor lol.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Disintegration

I think you just answered your own question.

Disintegration involves fear and things generally beyond your control. I've experienced it. *looks around the room for defectors*

I think Dabrowski's "three things" are akin to the position of functions in one's functional stack. Dafuq is TimeAsylums when you need him?

Shakespeare and Socrates with a hint of Diogenes!

The rhythm of this is oddly captivating.

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

Amazing mirrorman you are? And well versed.

Now, what if two mirror men met each other?
Would they continue to mirror each other to eternity or would there be a point in time where they merged and could not continue to mirror?

 

[paradoxparadigm7]

This sounds true, but is it really true ? Have you tested it?
Can you people define personal growth? Personally, Before MBTI I thought I could define it easily.. but then realized that there were many ways to grow depending on ones view of the world(= MBTI type)... The finding of the many MBTI types kinda shook my beliefs systems. I used to think that my way of seeing things was the perfect way... and tended to judge people harshly accordingly to my standards("the objective standards"). So perhaps, we might start by stating that personal growth is a 100% subjective matter ? The problem with MBTI is that it considers without proof, that every type is equal. I find it to be a very idealistic NF like -- thus possibly divergent from truth- but since truth is relative, who cares... -- way of seeing things and judging people. We could also question the objectivity of MBTI, since its roots are NF rotten..
We should also define maturity and maturation. Which standards do we use to judge if someone is mature ? Kinda confused since there is no objectivity in there...


Besides the problem of definition( which is a big problem for me since I cannot discuss of something unless I know its whole components!) of personal growth and maturation-- which I consider to be more of an N thing..(since personal growth is a construction of the mind, an abstract matters, a psychosis !)-- I wholeheartedly agree with you and your conclusion: mental growth is a subjective process that requires time( thus age factor) and willingness to change( thus implies that SJ people do not grow !).




Thanks for your insight Jenny. I guess that's the kind of things that donot seem complicated for a 40 something person... but for me(20 something), I find it curious because it defies my initial beliefs( That's why I tend to automatically respect and defer to older or more experienced people !) . I always believed that: young people were dumb in life matters( because of no experience of life!)and old people were necessarily wiser and more intelligent.Now I'm realizing that it's more of a mind projection fallacy than a reality, a fact. It seems that I have the same mind projection fallacy about many other things such as girls and the way they function...(same as many other guys I guess !).
I used to think that older people acting dumb or saying inconsiderate or illogical things were doing it on purpose for some reasons I couldn't understand in childhood, I wasn't actually able to imagine they never acquired certain basics( or things I considered basic !)... Therefore I started acting like them to find out the hows and the whys of such behavioral or social quirks. I could not understand why they believed in a god( therefore I thought I was too dumb to understand what god really is !) for example, why they insisted every year for boring birthday parties, why they wanted me to go to school...etc

I'm sometimes amazed by the unbiased-ness of kids also; they don't care about god before older people colonize their virgin minds... they don't care about social bullshit... They just follow their hearts and do what they mind to do. I admire kids because they are potentially the most objective beings out there !


SO in resume, you define the ingredients of growth to be: not only time(age) but also experience, circumstances, and the willingness to change.

Orite, thanks for your insights people...




I'll just add some insights from Dabrowski as well, as you all know it, He thinks that personal growth is the product of consecutive disintegration and reintegration of worldview... So basically he thinks that positive disintegration is not possible for everybody and requires three things: innate ability(intelllect), overexcitabilities and a third magic factor lol.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Disintegration

Like Jenny, I'm speaking from my own experience and not necessarily a theoretical framework. You're young and trying to understand and I commend that but you can't get to true growth through your intellect alone. All my life I've analyzed myself, my family dynamics, my relationship dynamics. You can pin point what it is that is keeping you from growing through all the mistakes and struggles you've made but if you never have the courage to actually confront yourself and DO what you need to do, you'll never benefit and are doomed to stagnate. Growth is not a thinking thing it's an actual process of holding your own feet to the fire, challenging yourself to become the person you have doubts of ever becoming and doing it anyway. It's a heroic act, a brave leap of faith in yourself. There are no guarantees and much is at stake. The temptation to avoid and continue to skit your own fears is high but so is the intense anxiety of doing nothing. It's a crucible of intensity that pits two halves of yourself against each other and second guessing and fear and doubt are rampant. Most often you chicken out. You know this because it leaves you feeling diminished even though you rationalize why you avoided. You may look for affirmation to make yourself feel good but inside you know you chickened out and no amount of validation from others will fill the self disappointment. When you actually take that leap, it's totally different...you find you don't look for validation because it's your own validation that counts and you don't feel diminished but invigorated, empowered and you have a great deal of compassion for yourself and every flawed person you encounter including the parents you blamed, the people that hurt you and a new more solid but flexible self emerges. You can see and feel the transformation...you can never go back to who you were. You can only move forward and your thankful for the pain and struggles you endured. Everything seems to fit in place in the world and you become solid in who you are...humble and even a sense of the spirit/forces/tensions that weaves throughout the universe. You feel at peace.

That's the best way I can explain/define what it means to really grow.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

Now, what if two mirror men met each other?
Would they continue to mirror each other to eternity or would there be a point in time where they merged and could not continue to mirror?

They are merged initially, they cannot mirror anything when all they do is mirroring the fact.

Camera obscura, parts of their mirror structures that were even tiniest bit different would burn holes in their counterparts. This system can become complementary or fall apart.

 

[BigApplePi]

Why people do not become wiser, smarter, deeper and more balanced with age

I was hoping to become seven days wiser than I was last week but I forgot to take notes.

 

[Ex-User (8886)]

Actually I think my dad (48) is in the same level as me (18) in growth. People are changing when they're young. Old poeple don't change. If you don't change something in your youth, you probably won't change it in further life. If I mean changing, I mean huge change. Also, young brain is more flexible, to 30 years old.

 

[Ink]

It's not too complicated.

Age is merely correlated to wisdom, it does not necessitate wisdom.

Essentially, "age" leads to "more experiences" leads to "more opportunities to change and grow and better oneself" -- i.e., to learn and to expand one's awareness of the world and of others. But this is not guaranteed. Those who are unwilling to change, grow, or expand one's awareness will accumulate the biological years without accumulated the greater awareness that age offers.

People all start at different places as well. Some are simply more open to change and more flexible, and some also start in situations that are more challenging vs situations that foster no necessary evaluation and growth.

This means that, while age can bring maturation, some younger people can be more mature (depending on their opportunities + investment in the growth process) than some very chronologically old adults who have not been willing to grow or change and who naturally shut new awareness out.

Since change can be unsettling and even frightening (due to the ambiguities), people need courage to embrace it.

A great example of a mature wise woman

 

[nebnobla]

I believe your personality is a mosaic of the time you've lived through; your experiences, senses, conscious constructs, and the emotional weighting and interpretation of them, etc. When the boomers were growing up there was less of everything in terms of what is "common sense," and "common care about something," etc, there were less problems to ignore, less things to provoke deep thought, things were simpler; it's not a huge surprise for individuals in older generations to come across less flexible in accepting ideas or being conducive to complex thought--they're environment did not necessitate and/or provoke it as intensely as nowadays.

On the other hand, for people like INTPs, our universe is in our head for the most part, and I think people of our personality could deduce conclusions thousands of years ago which we may still consider complex and deserving of appreciation as they can retain intellectual potential no matter the external world around them. Many personalities can carry a wisdom independent of the time they've lived; those are the universal truths that have already been discovered. Every generation stands on the shoulders of the last, they can see many of the things you can, and the debt you are in from them holding you higher is payed in accepting their less complex interpretation of things, i.e. their understanding is not in correspondence with those things you have identified on that horizon they have allowed you to see. You may see the biggest difference in intelligence [over time] between personalities that do not rely on intuitive deduction of reason and rather must sense it from the world around them, maybe.

I suppose once your 40 and your principles are written, well then, you may be more of a solid stone in flexibility as well; maybe a product of emotional memory, or some other animal thing. Maybe people are not willing to let go of dogmas, baggage from moments of their lives they hold significantly, etc. It's hard to let go of ideas, especially being an INTP, possibly. Plus the brain development factors must be considered, i.e. how the computer and storage device is designed over time, and at which point it stops or slows it's growing.

EDIT: Sorry if it's a little gritty; I was a little drunk a few hours ago, though less than right now, lol.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

I suppose once your 40 and your principles are written, well then, you may be more of a solid stone in flexibility as well; maybe a product of emotional memory, or some other animal thing. Maybe people are not willing to let go of dogmas, baggage from moments of their lives they hold significantly, etc. It's hard to let go of ideas, especially being an INTP, possibly. Plus the brain development factors must be considered, i.e. how the computer and storage device is designed over time, and at which point it stops or slows it's growing.

If you find yourself doing fine with your ideas then it is common to keep them.

Every generation stands on the shoulders of the last, they can see many of the things you can, and the debt you are in from them holding you higher is payed in accepting their less complex interpretation of things, i.e. their understanding is not in correspondence with those things you have identified on that horizon they have allowed you to see. You may see the biggest difference in intelligence [over time] between personalities that do not rely on intuitive deduction of reason and rather must sense it from the world around them, maybe.

True,I know many sensors that would rather acquire their operational knowledge and nothing else that isn't directly required in their lives.

 

[nebnobla]

If you find yourself doing fine with your ideas then it is common to keep them.

Ah, right. It's analogous to natural selection; favoured features were determined by adequacy [and not perfection] in their environment; of course, perfection with respect to an environment is unobtainable if said environment is constantly changing (assuming their is [relatively] considerable time between potential feature changes).

EDIT: Perhaps someone's general understanding of things may be inhibited by the fact that they based their ideas in their structure off of contradictory founding concepts. Discrete concepts rely on these founding concepts; if there's no force to filter which foundational building blocks belong, then the house being supported can only be so big with blocks that are wrong.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

Ah, right. It's analogous to natural selection; favoured features were determined by adequacy [and not perfection] in their environment; of course, perfection with respect to an environment is unobtainable if said environment is constantly changing (assuming their is [relatively] considerable time between potential feature changes).

EDIT: Perhaps someone's general understanding of things may be inhibited by the fact that they based their ideas in their structure off of contradictory founding concepts. Discrete concepts rely on these founding concepts; if there's no force to filter which foundational building blocks belong, then the house being supported can only be so big with blocks that are wrong.

What I understand is that it should be important for us to understand faults in our reasoning, even if it holds successful in our enviroment. I agree, however I think that you could rely on perfected concepts that you tested and derived from proper foundations.

Also you are most likely unable to test every case and there are things that can hold true for many years just to be changed when you learn some new details or circumstances are different.

If there are people that with age lose this self-critical ability then it would be their greatest flaw or only weakness, depending on how solid were their developments and experiences for them to live the rest of their lives from.

 

[BigApplePi]

Mature people r experienced

Maturity is rated on a scale. The more mature people are the more decisions they have made. This makes them more settled. They need not be so restless. Those who are less mature still have to decide. This makes them dissatisfied with where they are. There are so many possibilities that they have to hurry to cover as many of them as they can.

Why people do not become wiser, smarter, deeper and more balanced with age( as theory predict it !) ? I'm sometimes amazed to see how older people act dumb and go crazy or act childish-likely sometimes.. just like us youngsters... I find it crazy...

Just because one ages doesn't mean they have made the wisest decisions. Even though they have made more decisions doesn't mean they don't have room to continue to play around. Playing around is experimentation. This means looking foolish at times. Sometimes avoiding bad decisions sends us to worse ones. It happens.

I don't think that people of my type( INTPs) are the only people to not suffer from this burden; Also I don't think we are the sole type to be actively focused on personal growth... Therefore I wonder if personal growth(intellectual, humane, spiritual, emotional,holistic internal growth..) is a real thing or if it is nothing but a plain fallacy of the mind lol.( mind projection fallacy= thinking that the way we see the world reflects the way the world really is !)

Personal growth is a risky business. Chances are we learn from experience. But the more experiences we have the more chance things can go wrong. INTPs may think about this, but how much does thinking reflect experience?

Help me solve this equation: why older people do not necessarily become better people?

Let's hope we as individuals become better for ourselves. Let's hope that includes being better for others. That doesn't always work out.

 

[BigApplePi]

They say rich people are just like you and me, only wealthier.

I say mature people are just like you and me, only older.

 

[The Void]

Define 'mature'. Physical marurity!=mental maturarity
Little Kids know that they don't know. They are new to the world. Everything is new to them.
They are thus more open minded. But then they are corrupted manipulated and brainwashed by the so called 'matures', and most often critical thinking is discouraged, they are encouraged to allows mug up things, (atleast here in my country) study study, idiotic belief systems are taught to them. They are open to think and very vulnerable too. They trust the adults because they thinks they are experienced and know more. Then the kids become adults too, their beliefs becomes more rigid, their minds get closed, their thinking ability get screwed out and they start to think they know, and they in turn corrupt their kids, and thus an infinite loop of brainwashing and dumbing down is created.

If a kid is taught to be open, to be questioning and tolerant and pateint and bla bla if a kid is taught how to study and think not what to mug up, then the kid with more experience may grow up to be the 'wise' old man.

But adults themselves are immature, and they train their kids to be like them, and in turn they are dumbing down whole humanity,

 

[BigApplePi]

Define 'mature'.

Developed.

Having attained a state close to completed growth development. I suppose that could include mal-development. If so, we are not looking for mature, but for healthy completion of development. "Healthy" would mean development without artificially unnatural restraints. Now we have to define what is natural or not. That sounds like a statistical thing where we look for ... why don't we think about that instead of my doing it alone?

 

[Brontosaurie]

 

[doncarlzone]

I don't think there is any simple answer to this, I think the idea of maturing and wisdom is incredibly complex, and cannot be explained concisely. Some interesting inputs in this thread already and undoubtedly ; experiences, mental development, family background etc.. all have a tremendous impact on maturity and wisdom, however, I think genetics and biology have a large impact too.

For example, the prefrontal cortex is not fully developed in humans until their mid 20s, though the pleasure centers are. This cannot be ignored. One cannot expect wisdom and maturity from a brain that is not even fully developed, though I wont deny there are some exceptional cases. Again, I am not arguing that biology and brain development means everything, but it has some impact.

I am 24, and I have changed drastically mentally, politically and especially existentially in just a few years. If I were to meet myself at 19 and give myself all of the data for which I am under the illusion have changed me, it wouldn't change me. Now of course I have had experiences in those years in between but I don't believe those alone are the causes of my development.

When I was 19 and in my early 20s, I spent a lot of time with friends at least 7 or 8 years older than me discussing philosophy etc.., and they clearly, being wiser, attempted to present some arguments which they perhaps only recently came to understand. I remember rationally understanding it but my internal cravings for external validation etc., though understanding the hypocrisy of them, were simply too strong to reason with. Now years later, I feel wiser, why? It's quite complex I think. This is not to say I am now mature, but maturer, and I still have cravings for things which I struggle to reason with and I am sure I will come to a different understanding when I am 30.

 

[Amagi82]

It's not too complicated.

Age is merely correlated to wisdom, it does not necessitate wisdom.

Essentially, "age" leads to "more experiences" leads to "more opportunities to change and grow and better oneself" -- i.e., to learn and to expand one's awareness of the world and of others. But this is not guaranteed. Those who are unwilling to change, grow, or expand one's awareness will accumulate the biological years without accumulated the greater awareness that age offers.

People all start at different places as well. Some are simply more open to change and more flexible, and some also start in situations that are more challenging vs situations that foster no necessary evaluation and growth.

This means that, while age can bring maturation, some younger people can be more mature (depending on their opportunities + investment in the growth process) than some very chronologically old adults who have not been willing to grow or change and who naturally shut new awareness out.

Since change can be unsettling and even frightening (due to the ambiguities), people need courage to embrace it.

^ This.

Most people don't actively spend their lives learning and growing and improving themselves. At 31, I'm way ahead of most people twice my age in almost all areas of wisdom. That's not meant to be arrogance- it's that most people never bother improving themselves. I'm still nowhere near the person I want to be. I find it horrifying that so few people work on themselves and their relationships in any meaningfully progressive way.

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

... and thus an infinite loop of brainwashing and dumbing down is created.

Can i make myself a t-shirt out of this?

 

[The Void]

Can i make myself a t-shirt out of this?

Whatever you wish.

 

[WALKYRIA]

Basically you think that :
- maturity cannot be intellectually derived.
- maturity comes naturally with experience and time.
- Maturity definition= being comfortable with oneself.
- Maturity have different meanings depending on personality type.( thus it''s clearly something personal than, and cannot be scaled or objectified !)
- maturity is a subjective perspective( thus other people should not judge your maturity as long as you feel mature.)


Thanks, I'll go think and will be back later...

But I already have an hypothesis: the synaptic pruning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synaptic_pruning


If I remember well, the brain maturation implies loosing multiple neuronal connections at certain periods of ife dvlpment .... maybe that is maturation? Maybe maturation is actually something about getting more confident( while demolishing unnecessary synaptic connections ?) ? And thus maturation is not always a positive phenomenon.... Hitler was obviously a mature person.
It is well known that neuronal pruning happens during adolescence, and explains why adolescent get wiser and more intellectual.... Could we just not extend the theory of pruning to the whole life experience? Pruning of brain is associated with many diseases, including psychopathy and schizophreny.
In other words, could maturity be simply a matter of selective brain plasticity or modeling?

just rambling hey !

OK so the mistake I made was definitely thinking that my maturation trajectory was the only sole trajectory imaginable... but there are actually many ones. And the people we consider immature might actually be the most mature people out there lol !

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Basically you think that :
- maturity cannot be intellectually derived.
- maturity comes naturally with experience and time.
- Maturity definition= being comfortable with oneself.
- Maturity have different meanings
- maturity is a subjective perspective( thus other people should not judge your maturity as long as you feel mature.)

I think the second precludes the first. And the third conflates maturity with authenticity...

But I already have an hypothesis: the synaptic pruning.

It is well known that neuronal pruning happens during adolescence, and explains why adolescent get wiser and more intellectual.... Could we just not extend the theory of pruning to the whole life experience? Pruning of brain is associated with many diseases, including psychopathy and schizophreny.
In other words, could maturity be simply a matter of selective brain plasticity or modeling?

Pruning in those on the schizophrenic spectrum is believed to be excessive...
So given the process of Positive Disintegration, how does that process increase neurogenesis if the anecdotal evidence supporting its aiding those on the schizophrenic spectrum is true?

Or is it perhaps that not all of the schizo-spectrum brain can be activated (because its connectivity demand cannot be met) and more "normal" behavior manifests as the demanding portion of the brain degenerates?

Both theories scream "ubermensch!"...

 

[Grayman]

Basically you think that :
- maturity cannot be intellectually derived.
- maturity comes naturally with experience and time.
- Maturity definition= being comfortable with oneself.
- Maturity have different meanings depending on personality type.( thus it''s clearly something personal than, and cannot be scaled or objectified !)
- maturity is a subjective perspective( thus other people should not judge your maturity as long as you feel mature.)

You're thinking too hard. The main variable is independence, and the rest is a measure of wisdom.

Describing wisdom was done already on another thread. So I will end it there.