Ti-dom = P-dom (P-dom does not exist, MBTI is wrong)

[BigApplePi]

Also, it sounds like you don't believe people are a spectrum between Fi or Ti. One is active (like flipping a switch) and the other is shut off. When does this occur? At birth? Strictly when the other process is used? It's like you describing people as AC or DC, and neither can have Fi and Ti existing together...there is not hybridization and adaptation between them. Is it like some kind of hard-wired genetic feature? Does this evolve through experience?

I share your interest in whether this is a spectrum or "modular."

Sometimes I make decisions by the heart and sometimes by the head, and that's sort of a MBTI question. Thus, I could test F or T depending on how compassionate I feel that day. Thus, how do you determine where the dividing line is? How would I answer if I'm F or T? I'd probably say: "It depends." I may not even be able to answer it.

I share that interest also. Not to forget that when you take a test, your answers may reflect what is in you at that moment and not what you are at your most comfortable.

Here a guess at separating the two. See what you think. (Assume I am INTP). I frequently feel compassion. I imagine I know just what those people are feeling in certain situations (not all by any means). When I feel this way it doesn't take much for me to step back. I wonder about my own feelings even if they will stay with me for some time. I think about their situation and the consequences and perhaps what can be done. That seems to be Ti functioning along with the "F" and Ne to me. If my feelings are about me and I am not in control of them, I experience them physically. That seems to be Si to me. So if I had Fi at all, I'd have to know what it is because the other four INTP functions would seem to take care of the situation.

 

[baj]

Since this exchange I've been reading various websites and threads in addition to the seven books on type theory that I've owned. On a different forum, there was a thread with more than 60 posts, and almost 60 different opinions on the difference between Ti and Te. Also, there are numerous descriptions and discussions of the F/T axis, and I've never encountered an explanation which is similar to Logic's.

Instead, I've encountered dozens of people who've experienced similar issues regarding the F/T axis. They experience both or use both depending on the situation or at different times in life.

Any data coming from the MBTI theory is based on subjective opinions of people. In fact, the test is people relating their opinion about themselves. These opinions can be surveyed and collectively analyzed. The resulting types can be correlated with characteristics and choices of individuals, but it is a loose correlation. For example, in certain professions, one might say that the percent of INTPs or INFPs is higher than the general population, but having a certain MBTI type does not preclude entry into almost any occupation.

What I find most meaningful is reading the anecdotes of persons corresponding to my type and finding validation. One may say that this cannot be a basis for solid theory. However, the whole thing is based on subjective evaluations, so all data is tainted from the start.



Being thus, how can I accept a priori Ti reasoning seems to attempt to be a prima facie conclusion? I believe I missed the premise. Logic can be flawless, unless the premise is wrong. Are we using a conclusion as a premise?

My starting point is that all functions are accessible to every individual, but we use them in differing amounts. I thought this was generally well accepted common knowledge about the theory, which is certainly (subjectively) validated by my own experience and the experiences of numerous others.

@Logic: you seem to be saying this is false because of reasoning. Your reasoning does not match anything I've read or experienced or heard experienced. I was originally tested in 1990 with the actual MBTI, so I've been discussing it a long time. Why should I believe you over dozens of other people and my own experience? Where does you information come from? If it is from a few people, then why should I believe them over numerous others who hold contrary opinions? Since the test is subjective, shouldn't my own subjective experience carry more weight?

Of course, I do want to hear answers to the other questions as well. These are just some additional questions I had.

 

[baj]

I share your interest in whether this is a spectrum or "modular."
I share that interest also. Not to forget that when you take a test, your answers may reflect what is in you at that moment and not what you are at your most comfortable.

Here a guess at separating the two. See what you think. (Assume I am INTP). I frequently feel compassion. I imagine I know just what those people are feeling in certain situations (not all by any means). When I feel this way it doesn't take much for me to step back. I wonder about my own feelings even if they will stay with me for some time. I think about their situation and the consequences and perhaps what can be done. That seems to be Ti functioning along with the "F" and Ne to me. If my feelings are about me and I am not in control of them, I experience them physically. That seems to be Si to me. So if I had Fi at all, I'd have to know what it is because the other four INTP functions would seem to take care of the situation.

I was typing my post at the same time, apparently. It may sort of tangentially address some of these questions, though it was somewhat for Logic.

Being an extreme "P", I'm not even sure I want to "decide", if that makes sense.

According to what definitions I read, I believe I experience all the functions. Right now I'm trying to re-parent my inner child, lets say.

This is like Si because I'm trying to visit myself at an earlier time in my imagination, immersing myself in every sensation of the moment...trying to feel the same intensity. However, I have my full INFP knowledge and mystical powers I have now. Or I can imagine myself putting my arm around myself, or act as a intervening parent. So this is Fe (or Fi) acting within Si from a INFP knowledge and value structure.

I'm fairly sure it's a stretch to define such things in terms of MBTI theory. I enjoy theory. It has been very useful. It has provided validation. Oh, my! The people who've asserted I need to be "normal", as if I could be their version of normal! It also helps me to relate to others in my life.

However, I think the MBTI is limited in what it can explain about the mind (of course). Thus, I'm going to do what I can do and be what I can be, and not try to apply the theory to everything.

 

[Black Rose]

Ok, There are two different meanings to the terms Perceiving and Judging and I'll break them both down.

First Meaning

Based on the MBTI system, The Judging type is a personality type that favors the Left Brain Functions as the top two functions where as the Perceiving type favors right brain functions.

Judging = Directive Functions = Left Hemisphere = Structure = Te, Fe, Si, Ni
Perceiving = Adaptive Functions = Right Hemisphere = Free-Form = Ti, Fi, Se, Ne

corpus callosum = ego

The Id of an INFP is the Left Hemisphere.

http://operationmotivation.com/2010/12/meditation-can-change-the-brain/

 

[Words]

I didn't read your wall of text so I might be missing on context here.

Words, when things don't make sense, you should stop and ask yourself "Why is my logical paradigm detecting this as a paradox?" I can tell you that the reason this doesn't make sense to you is because you've submitted to a specific erroneous assumption: Se must be used to acquire sensual information.

Se is not exclusive to the five senses. The five senses are a function that occurs in all people regardless of what type they are, however different types will register the information differently. Se registers objectively and real-time occurring information in its literal and concrete form. The five senses is one of the sources that this information can come from, but Se is not the Senses themselves, it is simply the way you acquire what is coming from the senses. Information coming from the Five senses is acquired by Ne if you have Ne as one of your Conscious four functions. That's right, this is Ne coming into my eyes right now, it is Ne that I taste and feel. However, this sensory information is being registered not in its literal form, it is being registered as a pattern, and if I want to identify these patterns as specific things, I'll have to use Si. But thats just me Words, as to whether you are or are not experiencing Se right now depends on if you really are an INTP or not.

Then I think it comes down to "What is a pattern?" and "What is not a pattern?"By your words, it seems that SiNe types can only experience "patterns" in the moment. Likewise, they can only have "concrete images" via Si. How do you prove this? On the other hand, how can the "present experience of a headache" for example, be a pattern? Do you think "patterns" are subjective?

Because even though you don't have conscious control over it, other people do, all eight cognitive functions exist universally and in the collective consciousness of humanity as a whole. Human beings are pack animals, and we are designed to work together and feed off of each other, so these concepts of all human technology exist in all humans either consciously or unconsciously. When you have a hierarchy of 4 conscious functions, you are left with an empty space that these four functions call out to. The existence of Ti implies the existence of Te, and the existence of Ne implies the existence of Ni, and so on and so forth. Right now, I am referring to all of the functions as more than just human hardware, and I'm referring to them as the concepts that exist in humanity and in the universe. When Ti picks up on Principles, then it is looking for the system, Te. When Ne picks up on possibility, then it understands there are greater unknown truths to reality, Ni. We may not have conscious use of all of these functions, but we are designed to unconsciously reach for them in a way.

Not very clear here. The purpose of "unconscious" functions is because other people have it? The purpose of "unconscious" functions is to be the "goal" of conscious functions? How does that make sense? To reach for something means having that something?

 

[Black Rose]

Sorry if I'm interrupting

Then I think it comes down to "What is a pattern?" and "What is not a pattern?"By your words, it seems that SiNe types can only experience "patterns" in the moment. Likewise, they can only have "concrete images" via Si. How do you prove this? On the other hand, how can the "present experience of a headache" for example, be a pattern? Do you think "patterns" are subjective?

The minds eye

Blind sight

Not very clear here. The purpose of "unconscious" functions is because other people have it? The purpose of "unconscious" functions is to be the "goal" of conscious functions? How does that make sense? To reach for something means having that something?

Lucid vs non lucid dreaming

recall at the edge of awareness (song stuck in head)

 

[BigApplePi]

@Logic.

Let me try to simplify this issue. I define it as, "Why doesn't an INTP have Fi available?" Is this a valid way of phrasing the question? Describing INTP functions is not adequate. Making claims about Fi is not adequate. Saying an INTP doesn't have the wiring is not enough.

Do we have a good definition of Fi? I thought it was subjective feeling. I'm not talking Fe here where an INTP makes a values based decision. I'm talking feeling which an INTP, or any person for that matter, experiences spontaneously uncontrolled out of their unconscious.

Here is a partial critique. It's too long for me to comment on all of what you say ... I decided to delete it as irrelevant. If you'd like me to reinstate it, I can do that.

 

[BigApplePi]

baj. (Please note Sir Logic.)

My intuition says this is what is going on with Logic. Logic believes for an INTP, there are four fixed cognitive functions. They are hard wired and inflexible and are not changed. I don't dispute this overall picture, but propose a partial alternative. I've attempted to get this across to Logic Adymus but have not succeeded.

I would propose this: An INTP has these four cognitive functions: Ti, Ne, Si, Fe. However on occasion an INTP can have strong subjective feelings. (This is not Fe.) This turns him temporarily into a simulated INFP. (Note I said simulated, not an INFP which is a full blown personality type.) He will temporarily switch two cognitive functions into an overall integrated Fi, Ne, Si, Te. This won't make the INTP an INFP. All it will do is simulate an INFP for a short period. The unconscious of the INTP becomes conscious. Soon it returns again to the more comfortable "hard wired" INTP.

Adymus Logic has not taken this transient phenomenon into account when he discusses Fe. Whether he will eventually recognize it as legitimate remains to be seen, but will be interesting to find out. Perhaps he will say this transient phenomena cannot occur or he will say if it does, that wasn't an INTP to begin with.

 

[Words]

Sorry if I'm interrupting

uh...What's your intention?

The minds eye

Blind sight

Is this suppose to link to perception functions?

Lucid vs non lucid dreaming

recall at the edge of awareness (song stuck in head)

oh! This is very informative.

 

[Logic]

@baj

Everyone is just one of 16 different personality types, each personality type has only conscious use of 4 functions that satisfy the 12 elements. Once your personality has been set by birth, it's permanent till you pass on.

You may believe you use both the Fi and Ti functions, but you only use one of them, please try and understand why that is by going back to my previous post.

Concerning Validity and Proof

This reminds me of a video that I recently watched with Michio Kaku. He talks about how the entire scientific community including himself had stated that one cannot "bend light". Countless scientific texts were published that were all keeping true to that message. It wasn't until later that they were proven wrong, and they actually made it possible to bend light itself and have it encapsulate objects and reform at the other end. They are now working on technology that will allow you to become "invisible." Have you ever watched Harry Potter? Yea, like that. If your wearing something like that then no one will be able to see you, but the problem is that you won't be able to see anyone else either lol!

The point I'm trying to make is that what people regard as truth cannot be blindly accepted by others because Truth or knowledge is not a democratic process. You can get an entire population to think human kind started with just Adam and Eve, but just because everyone in a given population is telling you that it's true doesn't mean it must be. All this really tells you is that the entire population has submitted to one paradigm.

A Quote from Adymus:

Spoiler

I completely admit that my understanding directly contradicts the "authorities", and very often Carl Jung himself. However, going against the status quo doesn't mean you're wrong, it just means you disagree with the powers that be. Neither Carl Jung, nor Isabelle Brigg-Meyers, nor Keirsey, nor John Beebe, nor any other authority in this field created the phenomenon that we call the personality type. This phenomenon was already an existent phenomenon created by nature itself, even if Jung never came out with Psychological types, it would still be here. You do not actually need Jung or anyone else to understand this phenomenon, because it is here right now, Jung might be dead, but the phenomenon that he tried to document is a living breathing entity that is here right now and can be understood. In the end, what would you rather do, stick to Carl Jung's incomplete work? Or keep learning what you can about the phenomenon that is right in front of your eyes?

In Pod'Lair we have spent years researching and learning about this human phenomenon from a different perspective and without the restraints of having to adhere to the Jungian or MBTI model's assumptions. In doing so we have made certain discoveries that these other models did not account for, and we can demonstrate them in ways the other models cannot.

That is when someone will eventually say "Prove it" which I think is kind of a cheap card to play, because we're opposing a model that has never actually proven itself right in the first place, so it's kind of a double standard. I have Pod'Lair to fall back on for that one, but you can handle that however you like.

@BAP

The Cognitive functions are modular. they're all fused together to form a personality type. The Four Conscious Functions become "one" so to speak and they work as a complete unit. It's all our brain, so you can say that the unconscious four are also fused together and to everything else, but they remain unconscious.

Separation of our entire cognition allows us to understand things more better and we result with the eight modular pieces of machinery which we refer to as the cognitive functions, but they've always been just one big machinery.

Personality types take the form that they do because they are being stimulated by their top two functions (mainly the dominant), and one must modulate to access their bottom two which is more taxing of energy.

Ti is modulated by Fe, but otherwise finds Te validating and stimulating, Fi is modulated by Te but otherwise finds Fe validating and stimulating. Do you see the problem with this? Essentially the things that will modulate your Fi will stimulate your Ti and the things that will stimulate your Fi will modulate your Ti. A person with this configuration would not be able to get their energy from anything, and they would not have a functional personality. It just can't work that way. Asking if there is a spectrum between Fi and Ti is like asking if there is a spectrum between a hand and a Fin, we are talking about two completely different tools that are not even present in the same creatures.

@baj & BAP

What is Fi?

To understand what Fi is, one must first understand what the Compass Bearings, the Priority that Fi addresses is. The role that the Compass Bearings functions, Ti and Fi, play in the psyche are almost the same. It is their Job to keep the psyche balanced at equilibrium, and then to stabilize it again once it loses equilibrium, much like how the Immune system works for the body. The difference between Fi and Ti comes into play when we look at the kind of balances they're maintaining; For Ti it's a balance of Perfection, and for Fi it's a Balance of Harmony. There are impinging influences that can come from the environment and the mind that can rattle a person's Psyche, make it lose its bearings so to speak. In the case of Fi, these impinging forces can be discordant to Fi, they don't resonate with the Values of Fi. Fi must reestablish Personal Harmony by finding it's most harmonious position, one that adheres most consonantly with its ideals, on these impinging forces. Fi must keep an intricate set of values so it can always know when harmony is lost, and how it can be reestablished. Fi can be thought of in the psyche as the defensive tower where inner harmony is held and maintained.

Also note that just because a person agrees that they have what I am describing, doesn't mean they actually have it, and I can't stress that one enough. Everyone has a Compass Bearings stabilizing system, but not necessarily with Fi.

@Words

A pattern is type of motif that plays out in objects. The same patterns can occur in two separate objects without them actually being the same object, such as a blinking light compared to a beeping sound. Reality is made up of infinite objects all tied together in patterns. Patterns that Ne picks up on are technically not subjective, in the same way that the Objects that Se picks up on are not subjective. People might define a pattern differently, but they are still experiencing the same pattern.

The purpose of Unconscious functions is actually to inspire conscious functions, not be their Goal necessarily. Don't think of the unconscious functions as mechanical components that "Serve a purpose", they technically do, but if you keep thinking of them in this mechanistic and concrete way then you are just going to be left with a lot of confusion, because the exact role of unconscious functions are just that, unconscious, so it is very abstract. For example, Te is the most effective language that Ti will listen to in order to inspire it to move from its position into a potentially stronger one. Consciously the user will be doing the "moving" with Fe, but it will be for the purpose of a conceptual Te maneuver that the Ti user was inspired to make by a Te insight. This functionality is best taken advantage of by a person's inspirational, the personality type that utilizes your unconscious four functions in that exact order, like an ENTJ to an INTP, or an ENFP to an INFJ. However our unconscious functions can come to us alone in the form of insights as well, and you can think of these kinds of insights as being like a person's muse. The insights inspire you to do more with what you have, by feeding back into your Conscious four functions.

 

[Words]

@Words

A pattern is type of motif that plays out in objects. The same patterns can occur in two separate objects without them actually being the same object, such as a blinking light compared to a beeping sound. Reality is made up of infinite objects all tied together in patterns. Patterns that Ne picks up on are technically not subjective, in the same way that the Objects that Se picks up on are not subjective. People might define a pattern differently, but they are still experiencing the same pattern.

So you consent that information is either naturally "abstract" or "concrete"? If so, then is the current sensation of an itch ever a pattern? Or is a current perception that "red and blue are colors" ever a concrete information? How is direct sensory information perceived in the moment if you are limited to perceiving patterns and vice versa?

The purpose of Unconscious functions is actually to inspire conscious functions, not be their Goal necessarily. Don't think of the unconscious functions as mechanical components that "Serve a purpose", they technically do, but if you keep thinking of them in this mechanistic and concrete way then you are just going to be left with a lot of confusion, because the exact role of unconscious functions are just that, unconscious, so it is very abstract.

Are you saying that "because something is abstract, it doesn't conform to logic and/or the "mechanistic" approach?"

 

[BigApplePi]

@BAP

The Cognitive functions are modular. they're all fused together to form a personality type. The Four Conscious Functions become "one" so to speak and they work as a complete unit. It's all our brain, so you can say that the unconscious four are also fused together and to everything else, but they remain unconscious.

Separation of our entire cognition allows us to understand things more better and we result with the eight modular pieces of machinery which we refer to as the cognitive functions, but they've always been just one big machinery.

Personality types take the form that they do because they are being stimulated by their top two functions (mainly the dominant), and one must modulate to access their bottom two which is more taxing of energy.

Ti is modulated by Fe, but otherwise finds Te validating and stimulating, Fi is modulated by Te but otherwise finds Fe validating and stimulating. Do you see the problem with this? Essentially the things that will modulate your Fi will stimulate your Ti and the things that will stimulate your Fi will modulate your Ti. A person with this configuration would not be able to get their energy from anything, and they would not have a functional personality. It just can't work that way. Asking if there is a spectrum between Fi and Ti is like asking if there is a spectrum between a hand and a Fin, we are talking about two completely different tools that are not even present in the same creatures.

Logic. I can agree to the modularity of personality types if one focuses on that part of the brain with highly enhanced wiring. Would you agree this roughly corresponds to a person being left or right handed? I am wired for left handedness, yet if forced to I can very poorly use my right hand. That shows a primitive wiring is present. Could a personality operate like that? ... think of Dr. Jeckel and Mr. Hyde.

Secondly how would you explain the reaction of an INTP scared silly by a bear in the woods or even being insanely in love? That is not Fe is it? Fe is objective; those two examples are subjective.

Thirdly you did not cover what I proposed here: Re: Ti-dom = P-dom (P-dom... as far as I can tell.

 

[baj]

@Logic: I most definitely use both Fi and Ti. You can't really argue with it because you cannot see into my mind.

I don't just believe what 95% of people believe because it is consensus. I observe it in myself.

So, you are stating supposedly objective facts about something which is solely subjective in nature. It's like you are saying, "You can't like the color green and red both." You can never know the relative extent of something which is wholly internal and subjectively validated.

Your example of using hands versus fins is comical since I'm a biologist. First, we are talking about human psychology, not morphology. The mind is a much more complex subject. Also, I live in a world where wings are used as fins. And there are fish that walk on their fins like legs. Also, there are many animals where five fingered hands have become fins such as in whales and dolphins. There's an animal called a platypus which has a sort of flat tail, fur like a mammal, beak like a duck, and lays an egg. There are snakes with flat bodies that swim in the ocean.

For a long time they thought the ceolacanth was an intermediate stage because of its structure. Old biology books declared it walked on land and was a precursor to amphibians. But then they started catching them off the coast of Africa. It's actually a deep water fish.

I'm going to go with my own observations on this one. I believe you are just pulling stuff out of thin air without any validity or observation (except perhaps yourself). Maybe that's how things operate within you, but not within me. I see absolutely no reason to accept something which I've independently confirmed as false. We are talking about my psychological preference. There's no brain scan which you can tell if someone is using Fi or Ti. People's function use can drift over time. How do I know? I EXPERIENCED IT. So if a set of people see the same thing, then I agree and feel validated.

You sound like someone who doesn't believe a platypus exists because it doesn't fit into your system. But if I saw 50 of them, how could I convince you they exist? I couldn't. Also, I don't want to anymore. I just hope nobody is misled by your incorrect belief system. You live in a dogmatic world without change. I don't even want to live in the same world where absolutes are so adamantly believed. You propose the notion that someone is stuck in something without the prospect of change or development of alternative functions.

In this world you propose, a disorganized person MUST remain disorganized. In this world, a person cannot become a better driver since their Se can't improve. Someone, in your world, cannot become more extroverted because their functions would potentially change.

In your world someone cannot become agnostic and then become religious again and then become agnostic again, as has been my history.

You are a strange animal there, Logic. INTJ to the hilt. I hope it goes well for you!

 

[Black Rose]

The difference between Fi and Ti comes into play when we look at the kind of balances they're maintaining; For Ti it's a balance of Perfection, and for Fi it's a Balance of Harmony. There are impinging influences that can come from the environment and the mind that can rattle a person's Psyche, make it lose its bearings so to speak. In the case of Fi, these impinging forces can be discordant to Fi, they don't resonate with the Values of Fi. Fi must reestablish Personal Harmony by finding it's most harmonious position, one that adheres most consonantly with its ideals, on these impinging forces. Fi must keep an intricate set of values so it can always know when harmony is lost, and how it can be reestablished. Fi can be thought of in the psyche as the defensive tower where inner harmony is held and maintained.

Ti

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QX9tZ5hiiw

INTP (Introverted thinking with intuiting): Faithful, preoccupied, and forgetful, these are the bookworms. They tend to be very precise in their use of language. They are good at logic and math and make good philosophers and theoretical scientists, but not writers or salespeople.

Fi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIc54azITDI

INFP (Introverted feeling with intuiting): These people are idealistic, self-sacrificing, and somewhat cool or reserved. They are very family and home oriented, but don't relax well. You find them in psychology, architecture, and religion, but never in business.

http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/jung.html

 

[Logic]

@Words

An itch is concrete and also a pattern: It's both, everything is both. Every sensation or symbol contains a pattern of some kind, and every pattern must be demonstrated symbolically.

There is a logic to everything, but logic is subjective and built off of a point of view, and you won't really understand it until you've established that point of view.

@BAP

What you're speculating on is actually a completely unnecessary functionality. INTPs literally have no need to randomly switch into INFPs. Let's use a little Occam's Razor here, you are basically coming up with an extra complication to your theory that doesn't even need to be there. INTPs have Fe, they have the capacity for emotion and feeling, they have absolutely no need to have to switch into INFPs. BAP, you're getting confused about the word "Subjective", if you want to be a stickler about it, then you might as well just say everything is subjective, because everything is being experienced and interpreted by you, the subject. But when Subjective is used in the way I am using it, I am not simply referring to an event that only you're feeling. Fe makes you feel certain ways, it can shift your moods, those moods are subjective, but what caused the shift in moods was an objective criteria; A person flipped you off, a person made a face at you, or a bear started chasing you for instance. Fe is a process that makes decisions off of objective criteria, that doesn't mean the feeling itself is objective, an objective feeling is an oxymoron, that should be obvious.

@Baj

You're defining Cognitive functions based on the descriptions of them that you've read online. Those aren't the cognitive functions, those are only results that they can potentially produce. Those same results can be produced by almost any combination of four cognitive functions that every type already has.

I didn't say you're not doing whatever it is that you think you are doing. Your psyche is doing something that you're calling Fi or Ti, my point is, this is an incorrect classification of what your psyche is doing. I'm not saying your psyche isn't doing it, but you're calling something Ti or Fi that isn't actually Fi or Ti.

This isn't something you can just know, certainly not with the limited amount of information that you'll find online. There are no MBTI resources that can tell you without a reasonable doubt what cognitive functions you're using, and just eyeballing it like you seem to be doing is definitely not doing the trick. Clearly. If you're defining Fi as subjective feelings or values, then of course you have it, because technically you could argue that everything is subjective anyway, but that doesn't mean you're using Fi.

Human Psychology is a product of Human biology, the psyche isn't just an amorphous mass of cognitive functions. It's a biologically wired interface used to experience, and make sense of reality; in other words, there is a certain math and structure to it.

 

[baj]

@Logic: As I said, I also have books, including Jung's "Psychological Types" and "Gifts Differing" and other books. It's been seven books total. I've taken the "actual" indicator two times. It's not just a few resources on the web, there are numerous threads about this, where numerous opinions are mentioned.

Where do you get YOUR information?

The issue is one of choice and preference. Someone can prefer to be compassionate or impersonal in the very same hour.

When I think, it is deep inside where I plot product improvement, logistics, breeding, and quality. I like to quietly work out new systems alone. Okay, maybe that is "Te", but it is definitely thinking inside. I also spend quite a bit of time playing strategy games like chess or civilization. I took math which was not needed for my degree. I test as a weak (almost in the center) INTP the first time.

Later, when I was in a very religious period, involved in missions in graduate school, I took it again and got INFP. Ah, of course I can skew it either way.

In activities, I'm often quite impersonal, almost to the point of having aspergers. I don't look at the clerk at the store or make eye contact. Other times, I'm quite caring, and I've gone into prisons to counsel murders.

Fi, from my personal experience is visceral. It's like a light in the soul or an ocean. It involves the sensation of the body, mostly in the gut. Reasoning accompanies it or not. Much of my Fi "thought" is about images. I have pictographical language I use as shorthand, and these symbols are echoed in view of nature. However, it's not "logically" verified concepts, but accepted ones like feng shui or viewing time as a river. Sometimes I just luxuriate in feeling and the flow of images. Of course, it also involves a great deal of thought about people, and planning future conversations with them and laughing. Maybe thats Fe, but it is INTERNAL, INTROVERTED FEELING.

Ti, from my personal experience is like a fascination in the mind itself. It just about ignores the whole body in its purest form. This is how I may feel after reading something, like "Einstein's Universe" or some book. Like I said, I may spend long hours thinking about things. Once I managed data, and I'd plan macros and VBA programming for long time at night in my head. If that's Te, well, so be it. Te is just a label after all. IT IS INTERNAL, INTROVERTED THINKING.

I would define INFP as someone who uses Fi more than Ti, and the converse for someone who is INTP.

I like the analogy of left and right handed, which is used in some of the books and resources. This is probably a biological hard wiring you describe, and though I can develop it somewhat, writing with my left hand is basically difficult. Yet, there are true ambidextrous people. Science once denied the existence of left handed people, much less ambidextrous ones. Children were forced to write with their right hand.

Not in my school!

I don't disagree that things could be wired in Biological sense. I just think there are more options for wiring. Take computers. Some people have linux on their PC and some have Windows. But some have both, and they can switch back and forth. I'm not saying that is EXACTLY how it's wired in the brain; it's just an example.

Let's say it is biological. Based on your consideration, Fi and Ti users would not have an actual physical piece of their brain that the other person has. Or if they have a physical piece, there would be no wiring or connections to that piece. Ooooh, I'd love to discover that. But personally I think this is absurd. I propose that they both have a the SAME physical pieces in their brain, but the connections for their preference are thicker from use. I propose that they both can have the same wiring, but the lipids are built up on the most used function.

Which is more probable, the structure is missing, or the structure is less used? Think about it.

Since I believe Fi is visceral and often in the guts (or in "the heart"), those connections in the brain that monitor the physical aspect would be most used or illuminated.

Since Ti is more in logical reasoning, then I think those connections would be lit up.

I cannot...without PROFOUND EVIDENCE believe that Fi and Ti people have completely different pieces and wiring. In fact, I believe that studies would show they use the same circuits, and that in physical anatomy...biological hardwiring...there is no difference except to the extend that certain areas are used.

I was looking at National Geographic issue on the mind. It was showing that Buddhist meditation caused the illuminated area to move. I'd have to find the article, but the brain area for the far right would be harmony and happiness. Meditation would improve function in this area (Fi ) for ANYONE who used meditation.

Please, tell us your actual, physical, biological research!

 

[BigApplePi]

@Logic.

How would you distinguish Fe from Fi and Fi from Fe? If we can make that separation clearly, it would greatly support the theory of modularity for the 16 personality types. It might clarify why an INTP cannot use Fi.