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Why Socionics and MBTI are Both Correct

EyeSeeCold

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Wikipedia said:
Myers and Briggs added another dimension to Jung's typological model by identifying that people also have a preference for using either the judging function (thinking or feeling) or their perceiving function (sensing or intuition) when relating to the outside world (extraversion).

MBTI tests are all based on extraversion then. So that means all IPs will be represented with JiPe functions and all IJs will be represented with PiJe functions, because these are the function pairs that they relate to with the world(extraversion).

So then when relating to the inside world, or introversion, all IPs are PiJe and all IJs are JiPe.

While extraverts are not affected because the tests are already geared toward extraversion

INTPs in MBTI are represented as TiNeSiFe. Those are the functions that others see in a state of extraversion(our projected Ego). But we are also NiTeFiSe, these are the functions that we are in a state of introversion(our personal Ego).

Conscious/Internalized self: [NiTe] [FiSe]
Unconscious/Externalized self: [TiNe][SiFe]

INTP Example:
ESFP will criticize or praise your Conscious self
ESFJ will criticize or praise your Unconscious Self
 

KazeCraven

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Actually I'm not sure I follow this.

So we are conscious of our internalized self, which includes extraverted functions? And we have an unconscious self that is out there for everyone else to see?
 

pjoa09

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Socionics and MBTI have very similar typology but very different profiles of the subtypes. Often it seems like the Russians have some voodoo power. I still can't get over how they figured out my fucking face and body. Its like horoscope gone wrong and by that I mean its true. But I don't think INTPs are capable of carrying out businesses and are good with figuring out profits. I am reluctant to bargain and I am always drifting out in space.
 

EyeSeeCold

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Actually I'm not sure I follow this.

So we are conscious of our internalized self, which includes extraverted functions? And we have an unconscious self that is out there for everyone else to see?
The conscious self represents everything we have in our power to actively and permanently change for better or worse. The unconscious self represents the molded side of us that is very resistant to permanent change, and thus our static strengths and also weaknesses are painfully exposed here. Think of it as your shadow or imprint.

Socionics and MBTI have very similar typology but very different profiles of the subtypes. Often it seems like the Russians have some voodoo power. I still can't get over how they figured out my fucking face and body. Its like horoscope gone wrong and by that I mean its true. But I don't think INTPs are capable of carrying out businesses and are good with figuring out profits. I am reluctant to bargain and I am always drifting out in space.
Some descriptions are more accurate than others. Sometimes Te is breadth of knowledge, other times it's being technical, and still it may mean proficiency(liberally).
 

viche

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Actually I'm not sure I follow this.

So we are conscious of our internalized self, which includes extraverted functions? And we have an unconscious self that is out there for everyone else to see?
That's because EyeSeeCold is following a branch of socionics that isn't correct. Thus he is confusing you with his information. His poll shows that both INTJs and INTPs prefer ESFPs which I have explained in that thread has to do with ESFP's being dominant perceivers (dominant in perceiving function Se) so it makes them appear to be easier to get along in casual relations. So now he feels a need to rationalize results of his heavily biased poll.

ESFP's functional order is Se-Fi-Te-Ni. Se which is a dominant function in ESFPs and Fi which is the their auxiliary function correspond to two of more ignored functions of INTP. I have yet to see an ESFP 'praise' an INTP for his Se or Fi because INTP uses almost no Fi or Se so it is mostly criticism and not praise. Fi is an antithetical approach to INTP's dominant function Ti and the two conflict in reasoning. To the contrary ESFJ has functional order of Fe-Si-Ne-Ti which closely resembles INTP's functional order of Ti-Ne-Si-Fe. ESFJ functional order basically covers for INTP's 'weak spots' in personality while INTP covers ESFJ's weak spots.

In summary, ESFP forms conflict relationship to INTP because the two aren't able to see eye-to-eye as each dominant and auxiliary function are the most ignored elements in the other, while ESFJ forms dual (yin-yang) relationship to INTP according to the theory.
 

Bird

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Just out of curiosity how long did this take you
to come up with?
 

EyeSeeCold

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Just out of curiosity how long did this take you
to come up with?
Me? About 20 minutes while walking and talking.

That's because EyeSeeCold is following a branch of socionics that isn't correct. Thus he is confusing you with his information. His poll shows that both INTJs and INTPs prefer ESFPs which I have explained in that thread has to do with ESFP's being dominant perceivers (dominant in perceiving function Se) so it makes them appear to be easier to get along in casual relations. So now he feels a need to rationalize results of his heavily biased poll.

ESFP's functional order is Se-Fi-Te-Ni. Se which is a dominant function in ESFPs and Fi which is the their auxiliary function correspond to two of more ignored functions of INTP. I have yet to see an ESFP 'praise' an INTP for his Se or Fi because INTP uses almost no Fi or Se so it is mostly criticism and not praise. Fi is an antithetical approach to INTP's dominant function Ti and the two conflict in reasoning. To the contrary ESFJ has functional order of Fe-Si-Ne-Ti which closely resembles INTP's functional order of Ti-Ne-Si-Fe. ESFJ functional order basically covers for INTP's 'weak spots' in personality while INTP covers ESFJ's weak spots.

In summary, ESFP forms conflict relationship to INTP because the two aren't able to see eye-to-eye as each dominant and auxiliary function are the most ignored elements in the other, while ESFJ forms dual (yin-yang) relationship to INTP according to the theory.
Man if you aren't willing to open yourself to why you are wrong can you please at least stay out of my threads? Can you just do that for me? I admit I have said BS things in the past, but I have irrefutable experience with these types dammit and I will not stand by as you poison accurate information with your ignorance.
 

dark

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Hum, odd. So Introverts are actually two people, but Extroverts are one person? Or do Extroverts also have a different set function? Also I have come to not like Socionics because on the website they keeping showing posts like, "Introvert=Loser" which I think is completely stupid.

Also like I mentioned before there are to many causalties in this war, there is a place I found on the forum for debates, if you wish to argue it out, go there, but don't bash people's opinions, it is ok to give evidence for things but don't go around to all their posts telling them how they are wrong, give real tangible evidence if you want to change their views.

Have fun.
 

KazeCraven

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That's because EyeSeeCold is following a branch of socionics that isn't correct. Thus he is confusing you with his information. His poll shows that both INTJs and INTPs prefer ESFPs which I have explained in that thread has to do with ESFP's being dominant perceivers (dominant in perceiving function Se) so it makes them appear to be easier to get along in casual relations. So now he feels a need to rationalize results of his heavily biased poll.

ESFP's functional order is Se-Fi-Te-Ni. Se which is a dominant function in ESFPs and Fi which is the their auxiliary function correspond to two of more ignored functions of INTP. I have yet to see an ESFP 'praise' an INTP for his Se or Fi because INTP uses almost no Fi or Se so it is mostly criticism and not praise. Fi is an antithetical approach to INTP's dominant function Ti and the two conflict in reasoning. To the contrary ESFJ has functional order of Fe-Si-Ne-Ti which closely resembles INTP's functional order of Ti-Ne-Si-Fe. ESFJ functional order basically covers for INTP's 'weak spots' in personality while INTP covers ESFJ's weak spots.

In summary, ESFP forms conflict relationship to INTP because the two aren't able to see eye-to-eye as each dominant and auxiliary function are the most ignored elements in the other, while ESFJ forms dual (yin-yang) relationship to INTP according to the theory.

You sure you didn't flip something around? Even if I were to agree with your premises, I would be led to precisely the opposite conclusion. Or perhaps you are trying to expand on his logic rather than give your own point of view. Having a complementary relationship would suggest higher liking.
 

giaduck

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I get along extremely well with ESFP's, so I don't know where Viche came to that conclusion that they cause conflict with INTP's. One of my bosses is an ESFP and he always gives me good feedback (never criticism) and is generally a positive and enthusiastic individual. I can see maybe that some INTP's can be bothered by this type, but you have to take maturity level and personal quirks into consideration and not just pure archetypes.
 

EyeSeeCold

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Hum, odd. So Introverts are actually two people, but Extroverts are one person? Or do Extroverts also have a different set function? Also I have come to not like Socionics because on the website they keeping showing posts like, "Introvert=Loser" which I think is completely stupid.

Also like I mentioned before there are to many causalties in this war, there is a place I found on the forum for debates, if you wish to argue it out, go there, but don't bash people's opinions, it is ok to give evidence for things but don't go around to all their posts telling them how they are wrong, give real tangible evidence if you want to change their views.

Have fun.
Extraverts do the same thing as Introverts, MBTI just doesn't account for it.

Lol, Socionics.com doesn't control google ads.

Thank you dark. I'm sorry but the one thing I truly hate is ignorance, and it just ticks me off that it is enduring, even in myself. What shall I do? Woe is me.
 

viche

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Hum, odd. So Introverts are actually two people, but Extroverts are one person? Or do Extroverts also have a different set function? Also I have come to not like Socionics because on the website they keeping showing posts like, "Introvert=Loser" which I think is completely stupid.
You can think of everybody as two opposing personality types. For INTP dominant side of personality is Ti-Ne while the weaker side is Si-Fe that gets expressed much more rarely. According to some MBTI literature this second, weaker half proceeds to develop with age, eventually resulting in development of a more mature personality. Thus INTP will at times use functions that are 'native' to the ESFJ while ESFJ will at times use functions that are 'native' to the INTP. With age if the observations described in MBTI literature are correct, the two types grow to resemble one another (though they don't fully get there because your dominant and auxiliary functions will always remain to be your most familiar and most used ones).

I get along extremely well with ESFP's, so I don't know where Viche came to that conclusion that they cause conflict with INTP's. One of my bosses is an ESFP and he always gives me good feedback (never criticism) and is generally a positive and enthusiastic individual. I can see maybe that some INTP's can be bothered by this type, but you have to take maturity level and personal quirks into consideration and not just pure archetypes.
Conflictor relationship does not mean that there is going to be actual conflict. It simply means that there there is fertile ground to have one. In casual relations any personality type can get along with any other, especially at work, where there is a lot of incentive to get along. The rift usually shows up when trying to establish deeper relations. Try discussing deeper topics that interest you with a person of ESFP type to see what happens, if you can get them to really understand you.

I get along fine with ESTJs (my conflictors) at work and respect them for their work ethic. But trying to discuss any deeper subjects, it becomes apparent that we are just unable to see things the same way because my dominant function Ni corresponds to their most ignored function and their dominant Te is one my mind chooses to ignore. I had an ESTJ boss and he was fond of me and promoted me too, but outside of having a discussion outside on subjects of work, getting things done and just general small talk about the weather we clearly did not understand each other's view point. Same pattern I see repeating with other ESTJs. So for casual relations it can work out just fine, but if I wanted to get into a relationship where I could feel that the other person just understands me and accepts me and can follow with my train of thought, I would not get into a relationship with my conflictor type because their thinking process is completely alien to me and same it true vice versa. Casual communication proves to work out fine, any deeper level communication proves to be a lot of work.
 

EyeSeeCold

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Try discussing deeper topics that interest you with a person of ESFP type to see what happens, if you can get them to really understand you.

Oy vey. You just don't get it do you? Look, even if you were possibly right, how can you speak for INTPs if you yourself are not typed as one?

My sis and I actually can get into deep conversations. I have done the same with a friend from school. While my mother on the other hand seems to prefer manipulative news stories and mindless gossip.
 

viche

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You sure you didn't flip something around? Even if I were to agree with your premises, I would be led to precisely the opposite conclusion. Or perhaps you are trying to expand on his logic rather than give your own point of view. Having a complementary relationship would suggest higher liking.
In socionics the functions that are inverse of your tertiary and inferior are called vulnerable function and role function. For INTP this is Se and Fi (inverse of Si-Fe). The vulnerable function is like a super-blindspot, also called the Place of Least Resistance function. The role function is the most painful function in psyche. These functions comprise the Super-ego block and here is what is said about them:
"The Super-Ego functions are the source of much self-consciousness. When among strangers or critical onlookers, people tend to suddenly become aware of the possible inadequacy of their Super-Ego functions and often respond in one of two ways:
- demonstratively act through these functions to create an illusion of confidence
- demonstratively state their complete incompetency or rejection of these areas"
Reference: http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Functions#Super-ego

The role function is also called "demon function" or "negative anima" because it was noticed long time ago that people feel inadequate in this area, especially if somebody else places focus on it. Reprimanding the person for being weak in this area is perceived as painful criticism. Having to deal with information that involves this function produces mental discomfort. For INTP this function is Fi. Reference: http://personalitycafe.com/cognitiv...volving-eight-functions-type-beebe-model.html

ESFP's dominant functions are Se and Fi. These are their dominant cognitive lenses that they will orient by and express. But they correspond to the most ignored and painful element in INTP's psyche. Same it true vice versa - INTP's Ti and Ne correspond to most ignored and painful elements in ESFP psyche.

To the contrary the inferior function in socionics is called the suggestive or dual-seeking function. Together with mobilizing function it is part of Super-id element of psyche. Reference: http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Functions#Super-id . Contrary to the role and vulnerable functions, presence of this function is said to create a "soothing psychological effect". But "If someone experiences a deficiency of it in his environment, he may attempt to supply it himself, but become soon exhausted". So essentially what happens is that activation of inferior is actually sought and needed, but we cannot provide it for ourselves, we become exhausted if we have to express it. So we seek out other people who have it as dominant or auxiliary and in their company we feel better. For INTPs this dual-seeking function is Fe, which is dominant for ENFJ and ESFJ.

Tl;dr version: ESC's claim would be true only if Super-ID and Super-Ego were equivalent (he calls them Conscious/Unconscious) but they are not equivalent. Super-ID block includes desired, pleasurable elements. Super-Ego block includes painful blindspot elements. From this follows that INTP will meet his or her own painful and ignored elements in the conscious of ESFP while he or she will meet desired elements in the conscious of ESFJ.
 

viche

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Oy vey. You just don't get it do you? Look, even if you were possibly right, how can you speak for INTPs if you yourself are not typed as one?

My sis and I actually can get into deep conversations. I have done the same with a friend from school. While my mother on the other hand seems to prefer manipulative news stories and mindless gossip.
Even if I was an INTP I would not be able to speak for all INTPs because all INTPs are different, so that would not give me any more credibility. You don't need to be a specific type to discuss MBTI or socionics and relay your own observations. Remember that the model was compiled by people who were not all INTPs yet this didn't prevent them from writing up accurate profiles for all types. I'm just relaying my observations here that from what I observed INTPs do not take to Fi or Se.
 

EyeSeeCold

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The role function is also called "demon function" or "negative anima" because it was noticed long time ago that people feel inadequate in this area, especially if somebody else places focus on it. Reprimanding the person for being weak in this area is perceived as painful criticism. Having to deal with information that involves this function produces mental discomfort. For INTP this function is Fi. Reference: http://personalitycafe.com/cognitiv...volving-eight-functions-type-beebe-model.html

No dude. This is Si for INTPs. We do not like being criticized for being unkempt and lazy. In public we feel it is our "role" to be orderly so we hide our messes and clean up ourselves OCD-like, and say no to unhealthy substances.
 

EyeSeeCold

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I'm just relaying my observations here that from what I observed INTPs do not take to Fi or Se.

What observations? Everything you pull is from information interpreted in your favor.

INTPs do take to Fi and Se. We long for true relationships between people and we need external motivation from others, to be more physical, which alleviates our pent up stress.

We do not value Fe and Si. Almost everyone here will tell you they loathe small talk and gossip, and fake people. We do not like paying attention to our obligations because they conflict with our mental wanderings. Fe humor offends us.
 

KazeCraven

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Tl;dr version: ESC's claim would be true only if Super-ID and Super-Ego were equivalent (he calls them Conscious/Unconscious) but they are not equivalent. Super-ID block includes desired, pleasurable elements. Super-Ego block includes painful blindspot elements. From this follows that INTP will meet his or her own painful and ignored elements in the conscious of ESFP while he or she will meet desired elements in the conscious of ESFJ.

I see. So in other words, purely going by the theory we're not able to show that ESFP would be more preferred than ESFJ by INTPs.

Either way I'm actually more inclined to just see how I and other INTPs I know react to each over time. But it is interesting to see an attempt to reconcile the two theories.
 

EyeSeeCold

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I see. So in other words, purely going by the theory we're not able to show that ESFP would be more preferred than ESFJ by INTPs.

Either way I'm actually more inclined to just see how I and other INTPs I know react to each over time. But it is interesting to see an attempt to reconcile the two theories.

We are. If you accept the premise that INTPs are in fact NiTeFiSe, then ESFPs will be attracted to the INTP's weak Fi(looking lonely) and Dominant Ni(appearing calm). And in turn the INTP will be attracted by the ESFP's dominant Se(reassuringly aggressive) and weak Te(trying to appear knowledgeable).

ESFJs are oblivious to the INTPs talents and true problems because only it's Unconscious self is visible to them:[TiNe][SiFe]. ESFPs can perceive the INTP's Conscious self, its underlying problems and true potential, which allows for positive feedback and constructive criticism.

I do not like attacking the interlocuter personally, but this guy is declaring information to be true when he as not experienced them himself. You cannot imagine the annoyance that results from seeing obvious falsities of information.
 

Anthile

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I don't really understand why you're so eager to declare that INTPs have NiTe-etc., especially as there is no foundation for that outside of Socionics and I, personally, see absolutely no reason to do so. It just seems like you're trying really hard to impose Socionics terminology on other typology systems, which works about as well as squeezing toothpaste back into the tube.

I do not like attacking the interlocuter personally, but this guy is declaring information to be true when he as not experienced them himself. You cannot imagine the annoyance that results from seeing obvious falsities of information.

To paraphrase Kurt Tucholsky, you don't need to have lied in a frying pan to know how a steak should taste.
 

EyeSeeCold

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I don't really understand why you're so eager to declare that INTPs have NiTe-etc., especially as there is no foundation for that outside of Socionics and I, personally, see absolutely no reason to do so. It just seems like you're trying really hard to impose Socionics terminology on other typology systems, which works about as well as squeezing toothpaste back into the tube.

I don't know if you could understand, but I have this nagging sense of stagnancy. I feel like I am being slowed down in an interesting discussion as there is no one there to relay my thoughts to. Or maybe they don't need to be relayed?

I still do this firstly only selflessly to open you guys up to more ways of understanding yourself and others. But I will not say that I don't wish for more people to discuss Socionics with.
 

viche

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I see. So in other words, purely going by the theory we're not able to show that ESFP would be more preferred than ESFJ by INTPs.
No, in other words you should be able to feel the different effects of ESFP and ESFJ interaction. There is a difference between interacting with a personality that hits your vulnerable point and is blind to your dominant cognitive lens and a personality whose functions are described in theory to have a soothing psychological effect.

What observations? Everything you pull is from information interpreted in your favor.
Ask yourself what reason would I have to interpret information in "my favor"? What favor? I'm completely unrelated type and am relaying what I have observed, that types that use same functions have least problems in communication.

This discussion is completely unrelated to ESFJ/ESFP discussion. You have stated both MBTI and socionics would be correct. I've demonstrated that by theory no, this cannot be so.

INTPs do take to Fi and Se. We long for true relationships between people and we need external motivation from others, to be more physical, which alleviates our pent up stress.

We do not value Fe and Si. Almost everyone here will tell you they loathe small talk and gossip, and fake people. We do not like paying attention to our obligations because they conflict with our mental wanderings. Fe humor offends us.
Looking for relationships between people is Fe, objective feeling expressed towards object outside self (other people in this case). Fe does not equal to small talk. Fe is wanting to bond with other people and caring for emotional state of others. Fe is not wanting to be alone but wanting to belong somewhere with someone. Si is not paying attention to obligations. Si is memory of the physical detail of the past.

I have a sense you have very simplistic understanding of functions. May be it is here where your confusion lies.

Fe humor? Could you share a sample of this humor type you find so offensive? I've been trying to detect how ENFJs make jokes.
 

EyeSeeCold

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Ask yourself what reason would I have to interpret information in "my favor"? What favor? I'm completely unrelated type and am relaying what I have observed, that types that use same functions have least problems in communication.
I'm not saying you are evil or have bad intentions, you just are subconsciously skewing things to prove them to yourself emotionally.

This discussion is completely unrelated to ESFJ/ESFP discussion. You have stated both MBTI and socionics would be correct. I've demonstrated that by theory no, this cannot be so.
It is not completely unrelated. The effects of intertype relations can help you determine your type. But if you believe you are a certain type but are not, then you will be reshaping information to fit with what you expect to result in such a relationship.

You have not demonstrated anything of objective truth with subjective reasoning. For introverts, the two systems test for different aspects of a person's psyche, but end up with the same type.

Looking for relationships between people is Fe, objective feeling expressed towards object outside self (other people in this case). Fe does not equal to small talk. Fe is wanting to bond with other people and caring for emotional state of others. Fe is not wanting to be alone but wanting to belong somewhere with someone.
So what you are saying is that Fi dominant people to not wish to have relationships? Fi in Socionics is defined by the judgment of the "distance" between people. Fi governs relationships and personal ethics. Fe governs displays of emotion and the judgment of external ethics/feelings.

Fi relationships have a focus on the psychological distance, while Fe relationships focus on how much positive energy fluctuates.


Si is not paying attention to obligations. Si is memory of the physical detail of the past.
Si is the perception of "what's right", it sees the atmospheric order of things. Laws, traditions and customs fall into this area.

I have a sense you have very simplistic understanding of functions. May be it is here where your confusion lies.
What you sense is an opposition to your own understanding and you are subtly trying to condescend to stroke your own ego.

Fe humor? Could you share a sample of this humor type you find so offensive? I've been trying to detect how ENFJs make jokes.
Fe values ethical consistency and also liberal expressions of people's inner self. That free expression can sometimes offend others.
 

viche

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I'm not saying you are evil or have bad intentions, you just are subconsciously skewing things to prove them to yourself emotionally.
I have same perception of you, especially when you are constantly referring to your relationship with your sister. Sounds like it has value for you that may be skewing your interpretations. You also have several irrational negative associations with functions that are simply not true, for example that Fe = gossip. Anyways not going to put too much time into this discussion as we already had it so many times.
 

EyeSeeCold

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I have same perception of you

Of course you do. That's the nature of disagreement. >.<
The question is - who is right? :p
 

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There will never be an exactly right profile. I approach Jung's types as "bones" and all the profiles and assumptions of how a dynamic being, in a certain society, culture, time and dynamic world will act is adding on fat and muscle. Too many assumptions.

Also, not all INTPs project a self-confident appearance. Your physical being determines a great deal of how people will interact with you and how YOU are allowed to interact with them. Those interaction and expectations shape people's "self-confidence".
 
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