Attempting to develop S sort of stuff, failing hard

[Darby]

So I currently live with a hardcore S type, by my guess ISFX (I think J, but I don't know enough about the individual functions to really say).

She has this book "The Power of Now" which she said I should read because I'm in my head too much. Basically, although I don't disagree with the fact that I'm in my head a lot, trying to get out is like splitting an atom with sticks and stones, it can be done, but with thousands of years of cognitive evolution and development of tools far surpassing those we started with.

I try to meditate, but I just find myself saying "shut up" and "stop" to myself trying to get my brain to stop working till I ultimately wake up 5-10 minutes later wondering if I fell asleep, or actually managed to force a blackout. Working out helps, but thought doesn't cease, I just don't worry as much for a 1/2 hour or so afterwards. Then my mind picks up pace again, and I'm right back to where I started.

My point is this: How does one shut it off (Thinking)? This question isn't totally new, but I'd like a fresh start on this.
Also, what is people's opinion on this book "The Power of Now"? I heard it's not taken very well by many people.

Sorry if it was unclear, by S things, I mean paying attention to the present and focusing on the things around me, rather than floating around in my head. This may or may not actually have that much to do with the S functions, but considering my problem is that me and my roomate are thoroughly opposed in this area and that seems to be the main difference between us, I thought I should label it as such.

 

[nanook]

it seems you are genuinely bothered by your thoughts? is this because of a viscerally bad experience or because of some silly idea about how thoughts are bad?

such a thing as "stoping thoughts" doesn't exist, not even in people who are "awake".

anyhow there are different states of mind, some of which are sickening. i would say thoughts can be louder or calmer, but that's analogy. there can be a quality of spaciousness in the mind, an air of transcendence, that surrounds thoughts, and renders them pleasant. or that space can disappear and it all becomes narrow, maybe generating the illusion of thoughts being too fast, because you feel trapped in your thoughts like inbetween two train wagons. this is a trance state.

fix your diet. caffeine and chemicals and drugs and poor digestion, uprising gasses, yeast infections .... all cause trance states, they make a part of you dysfunctional, so consciousness has to retreat into more narrow circuits.

connect yourself with your body, by feeling yourself, try to move like an expressive dancer, do walking meditation, that is to say, find you inner tempo, for example run if you feel like or walk slowly like a granny when sad or stand still when suddenly puzzeld by an inner distraction, do this as a response to what moves you in your consciousness, that is your mind if your are in trance, but it's anything that you become aware of, try to act as one, the connection with the body can break up a trance, by synchronizing the speed of mental sections, that is what creates spaciousness, when it's been lost. the goal is absolutely not to slow anything down, let alon stop anything. the goal is to become whole, undivided.

trance can occur in layers, when you pay attention to what goes on, all of it, give all of it room, express all of it to a degree but not to the exclusion of something else, then your being will do less things at once, semi-conscious layers of the trance will fall away, it may seem like many thoughts stop, but your inner world keeps moving.

are you even aware that eckhart tolles books are not cookbooks for sensor moms, but books about spiritual awakening? thats something one needs to have intrinsic (self-motivated) interest in, i would think.

its so wrong to associate spirituality with sensors. the now that eckhart tolle speaks of is nothing that sensors life in, or that they are closer to.

you could look into oshos dynamic meditation approach

 

[TriflinThomas]

I was like you for a while but thinking is all too natural for me. My minds never stops working but I don't mind it anymore. Anyways, I find people who don't think enough to be incredibly dull.

 

[Cognisant]

I try to meditate, but I just find myself saying "shut up" and "stop" to myself trying to get my brain to stop working till I ultimately wake up 5-10 minutes later wondering if I fell asleep, or actually managed to force a blackout.

You're taking the "think of nothing" thing far to literally, instead listen to the sounds around you, while doing that feel the surface of your skin, while doing that control your breathing (in through the nose, out through the mouth, getting slower and deeper at your own pace) this is approaching a meditative state. By spreading your focus out it becomes less intense and the separation of your conscious and subconscious will gradually be reduced until you're thinking without words, it can feel both effortless and intense.

Do you daydream a lot? That's basically what meditation is, a relaxed state of very unfocused daydreaming, eventually a sort of wakeful lucid dreaming as you learn to let go of your worries, your mental to-do notes, and eventually yourself; if the depths of your mind are dark then you delve to those depths and you become the darkness, because what's on the surface is only the tip of the iceberg.

If in doubt just relax and daydream, you'll find you way there eventually.

Don't strain yourself

 

[Sanctum]

Yea I have tried meditation and I rarely get success with it for the same reasons you have, my advice to you in regards to that is try to listen to some soothing music and focus on that, and you'll eventually go into a meditative state. And thinking while trying to meditate is not bad it just depends on your thoughts, if you thoughts are conducive to meditation I think it may further your experience.

 

[redbaron]

I don't know why you should be bothered by the fact that you like to spend a lot of time in thought. It's who you are.

I would have had 2 possible responses to her suggestion. If I didn't care for her friendship, option A. If I did, option B.

A) If I wanted to be a sheep like the other one billion halfwits seeking 'spiritual enlightenment' through nonsensical dribble, I'd read it.
B) Thanks but no thanks, and leave it at that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but she sounds like the kind of person who has read more than one of these kinds of books in her lifetime, yet hasn't displayed any observable change in her successes in life.

No offence meant to your friend in any form, I just have a general dislike for people who read and gobble up the drivel in self-help books, from self-proclaimed 'enlightened' individuals. I'm sure there'd be some potential psychosomatic benefits to reading it, but I seriously doubt their ability to produce a concrete change in someone's personality.

 

[Moocow]

Try to look for various non-affiliated secular sources for meditation guidance if you want to learn better. It's rare to find just one that teaches it well enough or without ridiculous spiritual shit attached, and there are some consistent principles behind all the varieties of practice. I normally leap on this kind of thing because meditating has very much changed my life, but I don't know how to get someone to really understand it without a lot of time and effort on my part which isn't available at the moment. You can learn it by studying lucid dreaming as well.
Not trying to be too contrary but I completely disagree with Cognisant... it isn't day dreaming at all.
It's an exercise in control over your attention, with which you could daydream if you liked.

If you can discipline your attention, you can daydream, relax deeper than what comes naturally, introspect with better focus and persistence, sleep deeper, lucid dream, or just plain try to get shit done more efficiently and cut out useless habits. I use it as a starting point when I need to improve my health by improving my diet or exercise.
Or you can dig really deep for buried psychological pains in the Freudian sense..

 

[Darby]

Alright, went out for the day and I don't have time to read all of them, but thank you, I will get to them soon enough (just on a ten at work atm).

So I don't have a super hard time having thoughts that aren't negative, it's true I get rather "heavy" sometimes, but it's not my natural state of being. I guess I've just been very discouraged because the way she describes it makes me feel broken or wrong. saying "You think too much" when I'm just enjoying whatever pops into my head, and trying to work on it. I like puzzles and the like, and to her that's too much thinking.

Feeling broken or wrong then leads me to being "heavy" which only moves the cycle back to her saying "you think too much." Because I end up internalizing it and trying to look for a way to not do that.

I would like to see "now" or the present in a much more positive light. I have a habit of seeing the past as positive, as having hope for the future, but feeling like I want to be anywhere but where I am in the present. ALL THE TIME. I just never seem satisfied. I think this has something to do with that sense of brokenness I've felt ever since I was sent to therapy so long ago and they told me I needed to be fixed.

Or you can dig really deep for buried psychological pains in the Freudian sense..

I have enough psychological pains that aren't hidden, I don't need to go searching.

 

[redbaron]

So I don't have a super hard time having thoughts that aren't negative, it's true I get rather "heavy" sometimes, but it's not my natural state of being. I guess I've just been very discouraged because the way she describes it makes me feel broken or wrong. saying "You think too much" when I'm just enjoying whatever pops into my head, and trying to work on it. I like puzzles and the like, and to her that's too much thinking.

Here's the problem. You enjoy constructing and breaking down complex ideas in your mind, and she doesn't. She's projecting HER dislike for internalized thought onto you.

Don't let the opinions of someone else dictate your mood and NEVER, EVER, let someone else bring you down for doing something you enjoy. Everyone is different and enjoys different things.

Feeling broken or wrong then leads me to being "heavy" which only moves the cycle back to her saying "you think too much." Because I end up internalizing it and trying to look for a way to not do that.

You shouldn't be taking her advice seriously in the first place. Find someone more like-minded to speak to because obviously you don't see eye to her with her in the first place.

She might be a good friend, but not every good friend offers the same thing.

I would like to see "now" or the present in a much more positive light. I have a habit of seeing the past as positive, as having hope for the future, but feeling like I want to be anywhere but where I am in the present. ALL THE TIME. I just never seem satisfied. I think this has something to do with that sense of brokenness I've felt ever since I was sent to therapy so long ago and they told me I needed to be fixed.

Sadly I don't know what potential psychological issues could arise from being told you aren't normal by people you know and love, I was always taught by my parents that being different from the rest of the crowd is nothing to be ashamed of.

You don't need to be fixed. You are different, and that is okay.

I would rather be shunned for staying true to myself than to be accepted for being a sheep.

 

[snafupants]

I like to develop my S and P-ness at the same time.

 

[Darby]

Sadly I don't know what potential psychological issues could arise from being told you aren't normal by people you know and love, I was always taught by my parents that being different from the rest of the crowd is nothing to be ashamed of.

You don't need to be fixed. You are different, and that is okay.

I would rather be shunned for staying true to myself than to be accepted for being a sheep.

Well for starters they told me I was "emotionally disturbed" and "too passive" which in and of themselves weren't the problem, because my family never told me I was broken. They were always "very disappointed in me" though which is what I think really messed me up. I have never felt proud or accomplished by anything I've done, and my sense of self worth is reliant almost completely on other peoples input because I don't believe in using my own biased opinion.

I also really believe in working on and improving oneself, and I admit that I don't always know what kind of person I should be, so I look to others to help me figure out what I can work on, what frustrates others about me.

Because of these things I find it difficult to even know what I want a vast majority of the time. At best I realize as we begin an activity "hey, this is %100 unpleasant. Why didn't I realize I would hate this before?" Usually, though, it's more like "I'm going to do this, and then half way through notice that I don't feel half as great actually doing it as I thought, and I could do just about anything else right now and I would feel less (insert negative emotion)" I'm lucky if I ever feel a "I want to do this right now, and I'm going to enjoy it. Then I do without any sense of guilt"

 

[Roni]

She has this book "The Power of Now" which she said I should read because I'm in my head too much.

I haven't read The Power Of Now and I won't - after reading A New Earth I decided Echart Tolle is a tosser.
From the wiki it looks like this book teaches acceptance. Right. Perfect stuff to impose on the people you don't accept.

Tolle isn't wrong exactly, just useless. In a moment of peace he recognised something Buddhism-esque and dressed it all up in spiritual bs for the Oprah circuit.
Modern psychology has recognised the same thing and calls it Mindfulness.
Mindfulness is Good Shit. It's the handiest tool in my keep-the-INTP-sane kit.

How does one shut it off (Thinking)?

Are you sure Thinking (Ti) is your problem? That's your dominant function - the fun one that likes logic puzzles and new calculus problems. It's not so much fun when it gets tired and you probably 'shut it off' automatically when it gets sleepy.
Maybe you're more concerned you think too much about your past and what it means for your future? That would be your tertiary function, Si. It likes to dwell on the past, putting things into a nice Sensor-straight line. It's easy to distract, because another thing Si likes to do is focus on physical/emotional states. This is where Mindfulness is very handy - Si loves this stuff!
It was first presented to me as a structured relaxation exercise. Something like:
1) Pay attention to 5 ordinary breaths. Don't try to control them, just observe.
2) Listen for 5 different sounds (which might include your own heartbeat).
3) Look for 5 different things you can see around you.
4) Pay attention to 5 things you can feel (all tactile if you want, like the weight of your tongue, the texture of your socks, etc; or emotional if you're game, like that 'heavy heart' grief/sad feeling). Don't judge as good or bad, just observe. If you observe a pain, leave it there and just breathe 'around' it.
That's feeling "the present moment" and it keeps Si too busy to be dwelling on the past or worrying about the future. It's a nice little break.
Once you know what it feels like you can do it without the structure. My favourite time is in the shower - once a place to wake up and start thinking about the day, now a regular respite from Thinking of anything except how nice a hot shower is.

..my problem is that me and my roomate are thoroughly opposed in this area and that seems to be the main difference between us..

Sounds like your Fe is having a bit of a whinge because your roomate doesn't lurv you.
Fe is a whiny brat. I'll tell you how to shut it up as soon as I figure it out myself.

 

[redbaron]

Well for starters they told me I was "emotionally disturbed" and "too passive" which in and of themselves weren't the problem, because my family never told me I was broken. They were always "very disappointed in me" though which is what I think really messed me up. I have never felt proud or accomplished by anything I've done, and my sense of self worth is reliant almost completely on other peoples input because I don't believe in using my own biased opinion.

I think that needs to change for you to make any headway into this problem. You should feel proud and accomplished over the things you do, and you shouldn't rely on other people to define your sense of self worth. You need to set small goals for yourself that you can accomplish, and take some happiness in achieving them.

It's okay to use your own opinion to form your sense of self worth. It is after all self worth. That doesn't mean you can't get outside opinions, but don't take everything to heart if you get some unfavourable feedback from time to time.

I can relate to the disappointment from family, I think it comes from a genuine concern though about the perceived social disconnection that INTPs seem to have. They just don't really understand, and they don't know how to reach out to you in another way. The important thing to remember though, is that you don't have to fit any kind of mould to be happy.

Some people act and hold radically different views to the commonly accepted social norm. That is okay and plenty of them are happy with themselves.

I also really believe in working on and improving oneself, and I admit that I don't always know what kind of person I should be, so I look to others to help me figure out what I can work on, what frustrates others about me

The problem with this is that you're basically just bending to the opinions of people who don't know or understand YOUR wants and needs. Sometimes the right thing to do doesn't please everyone. Often it's possible to come to an agreeable compromise, but sometimes it's not worth the emotional or physical effort.

You can't please everyone, and the people I value and respect the most in my life are generally the people who have enough individuality to debate their own opinions rationally and who take responsibility for themselves and their actions.

Because of these things I find it difficult to even know what I want a vast majority of the time. At best I realize as we begin an activity "hey, this is %100 unpleasant. Why didn't I realize I would hate this before?" Usually, though, it's more like "I'm going to do this, and then half way through notice that I don't feel half as great actually doing it as I thought, and I could do just about anything else right now and I would feel less (insert negative emotion)" I'm lucky if I ever feel a "I want to do this right now, and I'm going to enjoy it. Then I do without any sense of guilt"

This is pretty common for an INTP, I get this pretty regularly as well, but I don't see it as a negative thing.

When I'm in a restless state, I enjoy trying out new things and seeing how they go. If I like it, great. If not, at least I know.

Again this is another attitude that I think you need to tackle. It is not necessarily a negative thing to be interested in doing new things, and I think you'll find that being disappointed in something is a universal problem that most people experience now and then.

The only real way to prevent it is to have more realistic expectations of things.

Anyway I haven't slept for about 38 hours now, so I don't know if this made any sense to you or if I've interpreted your post correctly but, I hope it helped in some way.

 

[Darby]

@Roni: I will try your techniques, I think those excercises were supposed to be the point for me and why she gave me the book, was to be able to experience that.

@redbaron: Thanks, just...thanks, I needed to hear it. We've just been having a rough time since she's frustrated by my constant need for approval, and I feel broken and useless (and therefore looking for approval) because she's always frustrated at me. So I'm attempting to look in other directions for approval, primarily in myself.

 

[BigApplePi]

Is this "S" type thinking or what?

Last week lightning struck the cherry tree bringing down the top half across the power line. The power people came and pulled off the top half leaving a fifty foot leaning trunk. "It's not our job to chop the trunk" they told me. The trunk appears healthy and I could leave it, but what if it isn't? So I went to bed thinking about the possibilities (nice way to go to sleep) which today remain unresolved. From the front it looks like the lean would cross the power line bringing it down. From the side it looks like it would just clear it making a fun but risky chop down. But how can I be certain? I'm not a real engineer so I don't know what to do. I can't use geometry can I as the tree casts no shadow being in the shade of other trees. I thought of shooting a dart to the top with a small thread attached and by measuring the thread length I could then use geometry to check if the falling tree would hit the power line. But that's too difficult. I don't have a handy sextant. I fell asleep thinking I had exhausted the possibilities for now but maybe I'd think of something great tomorrow. Tomorrow came (it's here now) and it looks too risky. I'll have to try another way to bring the remainder of the tree down.

Same question: Is this "S" type thinking and what am I doing thinking Se? Or is this Si?

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Is this "S" type thinking or what?

Last week lightning struck the cherry tree bringing down the top half across the power line. The power people came and pulled off the top half leaving a fifty foot leaning trunk. "It's not our job to chop the trunk" they told me. The trunk appears healthy and I could leave it, but what if it isn't? So I went to bed thinking about the possibilities (nice way to go to sleep) which today remain unresolved. From the front it looks like the lean would cross the power line bringing it down. From the side it looks like it would just clear it making a fun but risky chop down. But how can I be certain? I'm not a real engineer so I don't know what to do. I can't use geometry can I as the tree casts no shadow being in the shade of other trees. I thought of shooting a dart to the top with a small thread attached and by measuring the thread length I could then use geometry to check if the falling tree would hit the power line. But that's too difficult. I don't have a handy sextant. I fell asleep thinking I had exhausted the possibilities for now but maybe I'd think of something great tomorrow. Tomorrow came (it's here now) and it looks too risky. I'll have to try another way to bring the remainder of the tree down.

Same question: Is this "S" type thinking and what am I doing thinking Se? Or is this Si?

ST thinking. Te(Si), in my opinion.

 

[Deleted member 1424]

As a rule, if it's been endorsed by Oprah I avoid it like the plague.

 

[BigApplePi]

ST thinking. Te(Si), in my opinion.

That shows an INTP (Ti Ne Si Fe = me) can turn into an ESTJ (Te Si Ne Fi). Adymus would turn over in his grave.

On the other hand as I look at this more closely, I do not really like to go after this kind of thing as a regular project. I just posted this socially (Fe) as something I'm thinking about for me (Ti). I'm full of doubts (I went out and looked at the tree again) and have decided not to do anything without more outside opinion (Ne) that has me feel more comfortable and less responsible (Si).

 

[EyeSeeCold]

That shows an INTP (Ti Ne Si Fe = me) can turn into an ESTJ (Te Si Ne Fi). Adymus would turn over in his grave.

On the other hand as I look at this more closely, I do not really like to go after this kind of thing as a regular project. I just posted this socially (Fe) as something I'm thinking about for me (Ti). I'm full of doubts (I went out and looked at the tree again) and have decided not to do anything without more outside opinion (Ne) that has me feel more comfortable and less responsible (Si).

Well I do think type shifts can happen but that's a whole other thing. The main thing is that different function attitudes can try to come up for air and I think your thought process in that situation was clearly Te.

Why? IMO, Te = Interactively thinking through problems; manipulating & working with external things/objects to achieve some goal. Computer repair is the simplest example.

 

[BigApplePi]

Well I do think type shifts can happen but that's a whole other thing. The main thing is that different function attitudes can try to come up for air and I think your thought process in that situation was clearly Te.

Why? IMO, Te = Interactively thinking through problems; manipulating & working with external things/objects to achieve some goal. Computer repair is the simplest example.

I agree this looks like Te. What interests me here, and it may be too late since Adymus is banned, is he was so convinced about things when he got convinced, and one of his beliefs was one does not deviate from the type one is. I once tried to convince him otherwise but could not make a breakthrough. I think the "type shifts" you speak of lend importance to any MBTI theory.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

I agree this looks like Te. What interests me here, and it may be too late since Adymus is banned, is he was so convinced about things when he got convinced, and one of his beliefs was one does not deviate from the type one is. I once tried to convince him otherwise but could not make a breakthrough. I think the "type shifts" you speak of lend importance to any MBTI theory.

Maybe typological theory in general, the way MBTI is setup doesn't really allow this kind of thing.

 

[BigApplePi]

Maybe typological theory in general, the way MBTI is setup doesn't really allow this kind of thing.

All theories enjoy a certain accuracy. Then we can use them for that same accuracy. MBTI is a great theory. Some like to check out its limits though. I like to do that. The more the theory checks out, the more credit we can give to the theory.